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Dooku's performance against Anakin in TCW seems to be at odds with how their other fights are portrayed. In the TCW movie, which takes place mere weeks after AotC, Anakin and Dooku are just about even, which frankly, makes no sense. The novel does have Dooku outmatching and basically toying with Anakin, whilst the junior novel has Dooku driving Anakin back all the while and Anakin just running away after the hologram.

Skip ahead to Season 4, and you have Anakin appearing to be stronger than Dooku. In both fights on Naboo, he's driving Tyranus back and the Count's clearly straining against him. Of course, there are other circumstances in the fights which make it muddier, but in any case, I was expecting more of an edge in the Count's favor.

Then we hit Season 6, where Dooku is stomping Obi-Wan and driving Anakin back. Suddenly his performance has done a 180 and he's the one driving Anakin back as opposed to the other way around. Then in DD, of course, they're equal.

So what we have is Dooku beating Anakin decisively in AotC, then weeks later, Anakin is matching Dooku (per the TCW movie, anyway). Two years after that, Anakin's driving Dooku back, and you'd expect him to improve more than the Count since he's younger and has more potential. Yet another year later, the tide reverses, and Dooku's suddenly driving Anakin back. A later fight in 19 BBY has Anakin matching Dooku. Then we have RotS, where Anakin's driving Dooku back again.

Did Dooku end up improving a good deal himself over the course of the Clone Wars? Or is this just the product of shitty TCW writing?

The only way I can reconcile the TCW fight is to say that Dooku was toying with him the entire time (it's also suggested that Dooku toyed with Anakin in AotC). That doesn't reconcile Dooku constantly being on the back foot in S4 and suddenly being superior to Anakin in S6, though.

I believe it was you that said to me, Filoni wasn't one for consistency/continuity.

I know. I'm wondering if people here think it's just inconsistency or if there's something else.

TCW movie only had Anakin matching Dooku in Sabers. In the Force Dooku was clearly stronger.

Yes it's possible Dooku grew as well during TCW. Or perhaps Oba Diah was just a really good performance for him, and a mediocre one for Anakin.

What's actually not daft with TCW is the idea that sometimes the same combatant just fights better or worse than his usual level.

@Thor - I'm discussing sabers only, of course.

In any case, the disparities are far too great for someone just having a good or bad day, lol.

Eh, I wouldn't say so. But if you want a different excuse, Obi-Wan being there may have neutered Anakin somewhat as he would likely be less willing to tap into the dark side.

Tapping into the dark side was a thing for the duel on Naboo with Palpatine, but not the other Naboo duel.

If we disregard the shitty writing, I consider Anakin to be borderline superior to Dooku but more inexperienced and inconsistent, especially in a saber duel against someone as powerful and skilled as Tyranus.

It's a elegant excuse that enhances the unfariness of the Chosen One.

Originally posted by ares834
Eh, I wouldn't say so. But if you want a different excuse, Obi-Wan being there may have neutered Anakin somewhat as he would likely be less willing to tap into the dark side.
Would Anakin still tap into the dark-side against Dooku in Sidious's vision with Yoda? I would think nearly killing his beloved clone captain would piss him off quite a bit.

IIRC Hidalgo said TCW movie was 0.5 year after AotC and well Anakin's Naboo performance seems to be an outlier (perhaps him tapping into his anger?) rather than the rule itself especially if you also take the novelization (TCW movie) into account which describes the duel better

The novel says it takes place mere weeks after AotC.

Hmm odd, I'll search through Hidalgo's twitter

its almost as if tcw is shit

Originally posted by Nephthys
its almost as if tcw is shit



But then, you like the Bane trilogy. So

I don't actually. I liked the 1st one when I was like 14. Never reread it to see how it stood up. RoT was poor and I never even bothered to read DoE.

Don't know how old you are right now so I can't compare you to your 14-year old self.

In any case, they're all shit. Also, you never read DoE? Did you just get your info from there from RT's or something?

I'm in my 20's.

And skimming the relevant stuff, yeah. I know all the important feats.

Well, obviously you're in your 20's. I meant a precise date. I'm guessing 23 or 24?

If you survived RoT, you can survive DoE. It's a little bit better. But not by much.

Revan remains Karpyshyn's magna opus, however. Of course, Karpyshyn's works can only be ranked in order of how terrible they are.

25.

I have no interest in reading it. I already know everything that happens in it regardless and it's too shitty to put the effort in. I have far better things to do with my time. Like reading about homebrew D&D classes all night till 1am when I don't actually play D&D and I have work tomorrow. Important stuff.

I hear the Baldur's Gate book he wrote is even worse. Though to give him credit, he was writing the 3rd book in a trilogy that was already utter pigshit.

I think you do a well enough job on your own explaining the inconsistencies. The fight in the TCW movie doesn't take place long after AotC, and the novels as you say (I'm inclined to believe as I haven't read them myself) say that Dooku had the advantage.

The Season 4 first fight on Naboo had Anakin matching Dooku, but I don't think Dooku was taking the fight seriously. He was casually levitating those lamps around, and he showed when he overpowered Anakin with the force that he wasn't trying to kill him, but capture him instead. I know Anakin was shocked in between fighting by the electro staffs, but Dooku dodged two of his blows unarmed and managed to disarm Anakin as well. Also noteworthy is the fact tht as soon as Anakin presented himself a threat with the force, Dooku was immediately able to overpower him.

The second fight on Naboo had the circumstance of the endangerment of Palpatine's life. While to some extent non-canon, I think the RotS novelization shows us the depth of Anakin and Palpatine's relationship and why defending Palpatine is high priority for Anakin. Dooku is clearly driven back, but still overpowers Anakin via the force.

I'd like to note in between the second Naboo fight and the fight on Oba Diah, Dooku still managed to overwhelm Anakin with lightning on Zygerria.

On Oba Diah, I think what Kurk said has merit. Dooku would be highly motivated to not let his Master's identity slip, stating aloud that his required presence spoke to importance of the task. Also, with regards to the RotS novelization, Kenobi's presence prevents Anakin from cutting loose as well right? He doesn't tap into his anger, or break down the walls of fear in his heart. Dooku is hown to be pressed by the duo, but unlike previous fights, his goal isn't to capture or delay, but instead escape.

Them being equals (once again, I'm inclined to believe on this as I haven't read this either) in DD makes sense as this is nearing the end of TCW.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
What's actually not daft with TCW is the idea that sometimes the same combatant just fights better or worse than his usual level.

That is true.

Originally posted by Nephthys
its almost as if tcw is ****

Also true.

Originally posted by Solar Power
I think you do a well enough job on your own explaining the inconsistencies. The fight in the TCW movie doesn't take place long after AotC, and the novels as you say (I'm inclined to believe as I haven't read them myself) say that Dooku had the advantage.

The Season 4 first fight on Naboo had Anakin matching Dooku, but I don't think Dooku was taking the fight seriously. He was casually levitating those lamps around, and he showed when he overpowered Anakin with the force that he wasn't trying to kill him, but capture him instead. I know Anakin was shocked in between fighting by the electro staffs, but Dooku dodged two of his blows unarmed and managed to disarm Anakin as well. Also noteworthy is the fact tht as soon as Anakin presented himself a threat with the force, Dooku was immediately able to overpower him.

The second fight on Naboo had the circumstance of the endangerment of Palpatine's life. While to some extent non-canon, I think the RotS novelization shows us the depth of Anakin and Palpatine's relationship and why defending Palpatine is high priority for Anakin. Dooku is clearly driven back, but still overpowers Anakin via the force.

I'd like to note in between the second Naboo fight and the fight on Oba Diah, Dooku still managed to overwhelm Anakin with lightning on Zygerria.

On Oba Diah, I think what Kurk said has merit. Dooku would be highly motivated to not let his Master's identity slip, stating aloud that his required presence spoke to importance of the task.

All very good points.

Originally posted by Solar Power
Also, with regards to the RotS novelization, Kenobi's presence prevents Anakin from cutting loose as well right? He doesn't tap into his anger, or break down the walls of fear in his heart. Dooku is hown to be pressed by the duo, but unlike previous fights, his goal isn't to capture or delay, but instead escape.

Not even that. In the ROTS novel Dooku's plan was to throw the fight so he'd be taken alive (Palpatine had told him he'd arrange for Dooku to be granted amnesty). In the novel he has the upper hand against Anakin until Palpatine starts yelling "use your anger Anakin."

I also wouldn't compare the 2 vs 1 fights with the 1 vs 1 fights, they're just really difficult to compare given their extremely different nature.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I also wouldn't compare the 2 vs 1 fights with the 1 vs 1 fights, they're just really difficult to compare given their extremely different nature.


Yeah because they might not fight in sync, or might depend on each other, so might not put out the same output level they would if fighting solo.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah because they might not fight in sync, or might depend on each other, so might not put out the same output level they would if fighting solo.

Yeah, I think it's general knowledge that Anakin with Obi-Wan will fight differently than on his own.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
In the novel he has the upper hand against Anakin until Palpatine starts yelling "use your anger Anakin."
No, he didn't.

Unless you're referring to the brief moment of Dun Moch?

I feel the answer is simple really, Anakin is simply more effective at combatting Dooku alone, as opposed to when double-teaming with Kenobi.

We see this is RotS as well as it seems to be what they were imitating. When Anakin and Kenobi attack Dooku together twice he blocks them both at the same time and repeatedly off-balances them throughout, but in 1v1 Anakin blows through his guard while he's backing up the steps and obviously ends up eviscerating him in their final bout.

Logical reason for this being that Anakin having to measure his offense to account for Kenobi's makes it less dominating, Djem So is far more suited for single combat, and this also leaves more openings for Dooku to exploit. The manner in which Dooku fights is also different, capitalising a lot more on deflection, evasion and Anakin's poor mobility as opposed to meeting his opponents head on.

As for the TCW Movie and DD fight, the first is no less balanced that in was in AotC (Anakin duels "evenly" with the Count for the same duration there too) and DD describes fight, as I recall, being in flux i.e. going back and forth, that doesn't preclude Anakin driving Dooku back with his strength at any one point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tapping into the dark side was a thing for the duel on Naboo with Palpatine, but not the other Naboo duel.

We can't really say that either way. Anyway, it seems the most simple and logical reason for why Anakin fairs so much better when Kenobi isn't around.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I feel the answer is simple really, Anakin is simply more effective at combatting Dooku alone, as opposed to when double-teaming with Kenobi.

We see this is RotS as well as it seems to be what they were imitating. When Anakin and Kenobi attack Dooku together twice he blocks them both at the same time and repeatedly off-balances them throughout, but in 1v1 Anakin blows through his guard while he's backing up the steps and obviously ends up eviscerating him in their final bout.

Logical reason for this being that Anakin having to measure his offense to account for Kenobi's makes it less dominating, Djem So is far more suited for single combat, and this also leaves more openings for Dooku to exploit. The manner in which Dooku fights is also different, capitalising a lot more on deflection, evasion and Anakin's poor mobility as opposed to meeting his opponents head on.

As for the TCW Movie and DD fight, the first is no less balanced that in was in AotC (Anakin duels "evenly" with the Count for the same duration there too) and DD describes fight, as I recall, being in flux i.e. going back and forth, that doesn't preclude Anakin driving Dooku back with his strength at any one point.

Blaming it on teamwork in RotS is pretty disappointing when Obi-Wan and Anakin are meant to be "complementary halves" and the best duo in the galaxy.

Them being an effective duo doesn't necessarily mean it plays to Anakin's strengths.

If they're "complementary halves", they should only be helping one another, not hindering each other. The implication is that they have flawless synergy.

True, but that doesn't preclude Dooku playing them off each other, which he does in RotS.

I'm mostly asking about S6. RotS isn't too hard to believe.

Speaking of where was this teamwork? Maybe I'm forgetting but their teamwork was like nonexistent compared to other works preTCW.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I feel the answer is simple really, Anakin is simply more effective at combatting Dooku alone, as opposed to when double-teaming with Kenobi.

We see this is RotS as well as it seems to be what they were imitating. When Anakin and Kenobi attack Dooku together twice he blocks them both at the same time and repeatedly off-balances them throughout, but in 1v1 Anakin blows through his guard while he's backing up the steps and obviously ends up eviscerating him in their final bout.

Logical reason for this being that Anakin having to measure his offense to account for Kenobi's makes it less dominating, Djem So is far more suited for single combat, and this also leaves more openings for Dooku to exploit. The manner in which Dooku fights is also different, capitalising a lot more on deflection, evasion and Anakin's poor mobility as opposed to meeting his opponents head on.

As for the TCW Movie and DD fight, the first is no less balanced that in was in AotC (Anakin duels "evenly" with the Count for the same duration there too) and DD describes fight, as I recall, being in flux i.e. going back and forth, that doesn't preclude Anakin driving Dooku back with his strength at any one point.
I really think this comes down to form. Anakin with his Djem So oriented around brute-strength power-attacks and counter-strikes is going to cause Dooku to tactically retreat with his elegant, efficient, precise Makashi. A source book stated somewhere that it was common for a user to tactically retreat against an opponent.

Dooku has demonstrated an ability to contend with Anakin's strength, but Makashi doesn't generate the momentum needed to go head-to-head, as Dooku says in Stover's book. As Anakin increased in skill, he demonstrated an ability to disrupt Dooku's sequence of strikes. Originally posted by SunRazer
Blaming it on teamwork in RotS is pretty disappointing when Obi-Wan and Anakin are meant to be "complementary halves" and the best duo in the galaxy.
Doesn't make sense either considering Makashi is weak against multiple users. Plus nowhere does it state that Djem so is better orientated in 1vs1 scenarios. Shien yes, but not Djem So.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Speaking of where was this teamwork? Maybe I'm forgetting but their teamwork was like nonexistent compared to other works preTCW.

That's because TCW is terrible.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes it's possible Dooku grew as well during TCW. Or perhaps Oba Diah was just a really good performance for him, and a mediocre one for Anakin.

I disagree. Oba Diah is just different showing of Dooku. It's a first time, that we celary see, that Dooku treats both of them serious. Dooku foguht them the same way, he fought Yoda - there was not a tactical defense and he wasn't try to humiliate them as well. He just put nearly everything he got to defeat them. The same Dooku fought Yoda on Geonosis.
I said nearly, because it explains, that he got something else, that he just didn't show them - his superior command of the Force. It's also a reason, why he was so relaxed in thei ROTS fight, despite the fact, that he probably knew, that he wont be able to beat them in strict lighstaber duel.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, he didn't.

Unless you're referring to the brief moment of Dun Moch?

Let's take a look at what's stated in the novel.


Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge:

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had he should enjoy while he could.

When one fighter has lost his edge and the other is relaxed and enjoying himself then the relaxed guy has the upper hand.

Sorry for the double post. My edits were coming out wonky.