Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Michael Demiurgos:

http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/9116/691654-lucifer44.png

vs.

Synnar (with the Demiurge):

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/9241/601225-616px_isilliencomic.jpg


Who wins this fight for everything?

If Synnar wasn't lying when he told his backstory, he wins. He created EVERYTHING that wasn't "God" by himself with no help.

The power Synnar would have is technically the same power Michael had.

Theres nothing to suggest Synnar has much in the way of speed of durability, just the outright power granted to do that feat

Michael should win, their power should be equal but he should have the edge everywhere else.

Best case scenario for Synnar is a stalemate.

Michael.

Originally posted by RangerDX
The power Synnar would have is technically the same power Michael had.

No. Synnar is more than Michael. He's literally the "Lesser Yaheweh". The only things he didn't create were "God" and maybe Heaven. Everything else, from angels to humans to universes and nether realms were created by Synnar :
https://s12.postimg.org/z74yj11e1/3212483_rannthan06_014.jpg https://s12.postimg.org/bu6x0ilah/3212485_rannthan06_016.jpg
He even calls the angels and rebel angels his "children".

We all lose, phuck Starlin

Originally posted by RangerDX
The power Synnar would have is technically the same power Michael had. This is correct.

Aside from the fact that Michael's Demiurgic power was used to create Lucifer's totality(along with all of the concepts within it) ex nihilo, Michael also used his power to restore every single atom of Yahweh's creation...

"Examine your own substance. Or that of anything you see --stars, stones, water, air-- look close enough and you will see Michael's will working there."

"That is impossible! What you suggest, only God can do!"

"He is the Demiurge. God chose him as his second. Now, as God's mark fades and creation falters, Michael renews it moment by moment. He writes God's name afresh on every atom of existence.":
http://i.imgur.com/biVHYbS.jpg

Presence did say he didn't "need" Michael and Lucifer.

He also said Lucifer's will wrote Presence's name on every atom of existance. Either Synarr contradict's this, or he didn't do as much as he claimed.

...Or the more likely scenario: Starlin said "f*ck established continuity", and just did his own thing. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

starlin has long since rounded the bend into jokesville. the guy comes in, utterly screws things up then all the other writers just ignore what he wrote. i think we of the kmc should do likewise from this point forward.

Originally posted by Cogito
We all lose, phuck Starlin

One of the worst writers in comics. Mother****er cant do a story without making someone a multiversal nigh omnipotent entity. Damn near ruined Lucifer and New Gods with his bullshit.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is correct.

Aside from the fact that Michael's Demiurgic power was used to create Lucifer's totality(along with all of the concepts within it) ex nihilo, Michael also used his power to restore every single atom of Yahweh's creation...

"Examine your own substance. Or that of anything you see --stars, stones, water, air-- look close enough and you will see Michael's will working there."

"That is impossible! What you suggest, only God can do!"

"He is the Demiurge. God chose him as his second. Now, as God's mark fades and creation falters, Michael renews it moment by moment. He writes God's name afresh on every atom of existence.":
http://i.imgur.com/biVHYbS.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
starlin has long since rounded the bend into jokesville. the guy comes in, utterly screws things up then all the other writers just ignore what he wrote. i think we of the kmc should do likewise from this point forward.

Originally posted by RangerDX
One of the worst writers in comics. Mother****er cant do a story without making someone a multiversal nigh omnipotent entity. Damn near ruined Lucifer and New Gods with his bullshit.

Not to mention Bizarro Superman.

.

Originally posted by Galan007

This is correct.

I wouldn't think that G. Synnar was portrayed as an actual challenge to God,

.. while opr and yurself I believe

have proven Mikey and/or Lucy get rubbed out with a thought by the Presence.

Also, Synnar created Michael and Lucy in Starlin's vision.
Originally posted by Galan007

...Or the more likely scenario: Starlin said "f*ck established continuity",

and just did his own thing.

Certainly wouldn't be the first time.
...

Originally posted by Mr Master
I wouldn't think that G. From a raw power standpoint, they were the same level(IF you take Synnar's word at face value, of course)... I provided evidence as to why in my previous post.

^^ Starlin's concept was diferent than Carey's or Gaiman's.

Synnar simultaneously stalemated the Presence, plus all of Heaven and Hell, (Mikey/Lucy included) before ultimately losing.

Starlin's "Presence" was not omniscient, omnipresent or omnipotent.

In fact, according to the story, Synnar was trying to reach a stated labeled "infinite omnipotence,"
which would supersede the nigh-omnipotent "Presence."

Originally posted by Mr Master
I wouldn't think that G. Synnar was portrayed as an actual challenge to God,

.. while opr and yurself I believe

have proven Mikey and/or Lucy get rubbed out with a thought by the Presence.

Also, Synnar created Michael and Lucy in Starlin's vision.

...

I don't think so, both had the power of God, literally.

Lucifer #11:

http://imgur.com/a/ZFjsh

^ "God had vested in you the demiurgic power. The word of fire that builds and breaks".

Rann-Thanagar Holy War #6:

http://imgur.com/335f7Ws

^ "The lord of all that was and is granted me the power to create his dream".

Close battle imo, and dunno really wins this fight.

Originally posted by backup

I don't think so, both had the power of God, literally.
Michael does not equate to the power of the Presence, since the Presence can erase him with a thought.
So, that's good ol' fashion hyperbole.

On the other hand,
Synnar actually did battle the Presence PLUS all of Heaven and Hell combined, (includes Michael)
and while Synnar lost, it was a great battle before he did.

Anyway, we can't properly compare them
since Starlin's vision of the DC divine hierarchy is somewhat different than Carey's or Gaimen's.

One thing's for certain, although they were supposed to represent the same concept (Demiurge)
Synnar was written as a far more potent "demiurge" than Michael.

But again, different writers, different ideas portrayed.

Presence can erase him because he created him, the same way Lord Thor could undo the Asgardian Destroyer.

Not a perfect 1 for 1 example, but Presence himself did make the claim himself that he gave Michael power that was like an endless ocean.

It could be equally true that Michael can match Presence in raw big bang output, while still being < overall.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Michael does not equate to the power of the Presence, since the Presence can erase him with a thought.
So, that's good ol' fashion hyperbole. No, Michael literally possessed the Demiurgic power -God's raw power- in its totality -- this was stated/reiterated several times throughout the series. More importantly, this fact was also shown when Lucifer used said power to create his own totality ex nihilo, and again when Michael himself used it to renew Yahweh's entire creation atom by atom. Heck, it was also stated more than once in the series that Lucifer/Michael originally created Yahweh's cosmos(that's the purpose Yahweh fashioned them for in the first place.) So yeah... /shrug

Michael would be destroyed by the Presence because he lacked the other qualities that make one a 'true' supreme being; such as infinite will(of which Lucifer was endowed with), etc. As I have said in the past: raw power alone does not make one equal to God.

Originally posted by leonidas
starlin has long since rounded the bend into jokesville. the guy comes in, utterly screws things up then all the other writers just ignore what he wrote. i think we of the kmc should do likewise from this point forward.

Shame too. I liked a lot of Starlin's DC work. He shed some light on lesser-used characters like The Weird and Adam Strange. He's also responsible for making Adam Warlock one of my favorite characters ever. Nobody wrote Warlock the same after that.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, Michael literally possessed the Demiurgic power -God's raw power- in its totality -- this was stated/reiterated several times throughout the series. More importantly, this fact was also shown when Lucifer used said power to create his own totality ex nihilo, and again when Michael himself used it to renew Yahweh's entire creation atom by atom. Heck, it was also stated more than once in the series that Lucifer/Michael originally created Yahweh's cosmos(that's the purpose Yahweh fashioned them for in the first place.) So yeah... /shrug

Michael would be destroyed by the Presence because he lacked the other qualities that make one a 'true' supreme being; such as infinite will(of which Lucifer was endowed with), etc. As I have said in the past: raw power alone does not make one equal to God. God already stated how he would unmake creation, including Michael/Lucifer - from the beginning. It would be as though creation/Michael had never been created. That's a power beyond raw energies, which is what Michael is.

Exactly. As stated on panel: Michael is just a vessel for the divine power.

Originally posted by Digi
Shame too. I liked a lot of Starlin's DC work. He shed some light on lesser-used characters like The Weird and Adam Strange. He's also responsible for making Adam Warlock one of my favorite characters ever. Nobody wrote Warlock the same after that.

Or Thanos. I liked Giffen's writing, but even he wasn't really the same.

And Secret War was just painful. Suicide by Doom maybe, but still, he ended up looking like a brain damaged clone..

Originally posted by cdtm
Or Thanos. I liked Giffen's writing, but even he wasn't really the same.

And Secret War was just painful. Suicide by Doom maybe, but still, he ended up looking like a brain damaged clone..

Agreed. I re-read Infinity Gauntlet recently. To see Thanos more recently compared to that is...disappointing.

Originally posted by Digi
Nobody wrote Warlock the same after that. Quoted for truth

Synnar is easily more powerful and aware being.