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When was Anakin/Vader at his best? Invisible hand, Knightfall, Rebels, or ROTJ? Discuss

Knightfall, assuming there wasn't confliction. If there was, then Invisible Hand.

I think it's Knightfall in legends, rebels in canon. They're all really close though.

Originally posted by MythLord
Knightfall, assuming there wasn't confliction. If there was, then Invisible Hand.

Knightfall, without a doubt.

Knightfall. Sidious must've masturbated himself watching the holovid of Vader's massacre.

I mean, Hayden's a pretty guy.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Knightfall. Sidious must've masturbated himself watching the holovid of Vader's massacre.

ESB.

Knightfall in light of recent revelations.

What are these revelations you speak of

http://i.imgur.com/ahTWNuk.png

This Canon statement also makes a lot more sense if it's referring to Rots Anakin & Knightfall Vader:

http://i.imgur.com/gmuCIwn.png

On the other hand (Canon) evidence against Anakin > Vader is not solid, and can be rebut.

That's not solid evidence either.

I look forward to your rebuttal then.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
http://i.imgur.com/ahTWNuk.png

This Canon statement also makes a lot more sense if it's referring to Rots Anakin & Knightfall Vader:

http://i.imgur.com/gmuCIwn.png

On the other hand (Canon) evidence against Anakin > Vader is not solid, and can be rebut.
Oh yeah I've seen that before. It could just be talking about his lost potential though, and it's contradicted by the quote in LOTS that says his injuries strengthened his connection to the force. Star Wars is so annoying with all of its inconsistencies.

And the one that's talking about Kylo Ren is saying Anakin/Vader, as a whole, is the most powerful jedi and sith. At least that's how I interpreted it.

That being said, I think Knightfall Vader and peak suit Vader are probably about the same overall, they both have their own strengths.

Canon: Rebels/LotS/ANH
Legends: RotJ

composite: Knightfall/Zonakin

Originally posted by Rebel95
Oh yeah I've seen that before. It could just be talking about his lost potential though, and it's contradicted by the quote in LOTS that says his injuries strengthened his connection to the force. Star Wars is so annoying with all of its inconsistencies.It said before, so its evidently not referring to his potential but to the power he had as Anakin.

And LotS is from Vader's perspective, this is objective.

???

And yet he's described as the most powerful Sith, which obviously isn't the case for suited Vader. mmm

Originally posted by Kurk
Canon: Rebels/LotS/ANH

Interesting. Why do you think ANH Vader > ESB Vader?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I look forward to your rebuttal then.

The latter is certainly referring to potential as Anakin is not more powerful than Yoda nor is any version of Vader more powerful than Sidious.

The first could also be referring to potential.

Regardless, neither is a definitive indication that pre-Mustafar Vader > suited!Vader.

RotJ easily.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It said before, so its evidently not referring to his potential but to the power he had as Anakin.

And LotS is from Vader's perspective, this is objective.

???

And yet he's described as the most powerful Sith, which obviously isn't the case for suited Vader. mmm
Isn't the quote from a 3rd person point of view? And you realize objective means it's not influenced by personal feelings, right? Lol, anyways, the same could be said for the picture you posted, it's Palpatine's opinion.

I'm saying that the quote is referring to Anakin/Vader being the most powerful force user in regards to his raw power. Obviously he wasn't stronger than Yoda as Anakin or Sidious as Vader.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Isn't the quote from a 3rd person point of view? And you realize objective means it's not influenced by personal feelings, right? Lol, anyways, the same could be said for the picture you posted, it's Palpatine's opinion.And it's written in third person but from the perspective of Vader. And its not Palpatine's opinion, given it says he knew rather than he thought or believed.

Yet that's exactly what it says, that he was more powerful than them. mmm

And I'm not seeing how he can possess more raw power yet be weaker than them...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And it's written in third person but from the perspective of Vader. And its not Palpatine's opinion, given it says he knew rather than he thought or believed.

Yet that's exactly what it says, that he was more powerful than them. mmm

And I'm not seeing how he can possess more raw power yet be weaker than them...
Fair enough, doesn't necessarily mean it's not true though especially when there's other quotes like the ones from ROTJ and Beware the Sith that back it up. The fact that there's so many quotes that contradict eachother is why I prefer to look at it from a feats perspective. Vader has better force feats whereas Anakin has better dueling feats.

Because it's referring to the fact that he has the highest potential/midichlorian count, unless you think Anakin/Vader could beat Yoda or Sidious? Which I'm totally fine with lol

Well only one can be correct, either it crippled him, or made him stronger.

And those aren't Canon, they are Legends, in which case a simple reading of the RotS novelisation makes it very clear who is the more powerful, and it's not Vader.

Perhaps, but I think power in the conventional sense is the more obvious reading, in which case defeating Yoda or Sidious in battle isn't necessarily outside his abilities.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well only one can be correct, either it crippled him, or made him stronger.
I think there's more to it than that. Anakin had the greatest raw power/potential of any force user, but he never reached his potential. Then Obi Wan ****ed him up and his potential decreased, but his pain and suffering fed his hate. This gave him more power, and made up for some of that lost potential. At least that's the way I see it, and it kinda helps explain the contradictions.

We've been through this before Beni. It was talking about how powerful Palpatine thought Vader would be now right after his injuries. But He couldn't possibly know his remaining potential until he "tested" him right after, as mentioned in the same text.

On the other hand Vader himself a few years down the line has a better idea of his power set then and before.

Uhuh, what it tells us is that Vader's injuries crippled him in terms of Force ability, which Palpatine observed. A few years down the line and the only thing Vader has developed are delusions.

Originally posted by Rebel95
I think there's more to it than that. Anakin had the greatest raw power/potential of any force user, but he never reached his potential. Then Obi Wan ****ed him up and his potential decreased, but his pain and suffering fed his hate. This gave him more power, and made up for some of that lost potential. At least that's the way I see it, and it kinda helps explain the contradictions. Vader doesn't talk about overcoming weakness though, he says his injuries "perfected his spirit", that's in explicit contradiction to what we're told by the Databank, and what you've theorised here. If Vader was compensating then his spirit was not perfected, it was and is damaged goods.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader doesn't talk about overcoming weakness though, he says his injuries "perfected his spirit", that's in explicit contradiction to what we're told by the Databank, and what you've theorised here. If Vader was compensating then his spirit was not perfected, it was and is damaged goods.
I don't really see how it contradicts anything. If anything it supports what I said; his injuries fed his hate and allowed him to grow more powerful. It specifically says that his injuries and suffering strengthened his connection to the force.

And also that it perfected his spirit, which is wrong.

I doubt there's a Vader better than the one that trounced Darth Tyranus.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uhuh, what it tells us is that Vader's injuries crippled him in terms of Force ability, which Palpatine observed. A few years down the line and the only thing Vader has developed are delusions.


Where are you getting he was delusional from?

Of course he lost power in ROTS. That's kind of a no brainier. But nothing suggests it didn't even have the potential to match his former self in combat.

In fact given the hype around Ahsoka and Maul's comments, it's kind of a given Vader is at least around Anakin's previous level.

It's only his Raw Power and Potential to whoop Yoda/Palpatine that he'll never recover.

Originally posted by Trocity
I doubt there's a Vader better than the one that trounced Darth Tyranus.


How about the one that Maul shits himself from, or the one that crushes AT-AT's

Originally posted by Darth Thor
How about the one that Maul shits himself from, or the one that crushes AT-AT's

Not better than trouncing Dooku, lol.

Originally posted by MythLord
Not better than trouncing Dooku, lol.


Arguably around the same level though.

No.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Where are you getting he was delusional from?

Of course he lost power in ROTS. That's kind of a no brainier. But nothing suggests it didn't even have the potential to match his former self in combat.

In fact given the hype around Ahsoka and Maul's comments, it's kind of a given Vader is at least around Anakin's previous level.

It's only his Raw Power and Potential to whoop Yoda/Palpatine that he'll never recover. Um the fact that he was wrong, his broken body didn't perfect his spirit, and it didn't strengthen his connection to the Force, you've just conceded as much. So his opinions are debunked.

Beyond that, we don't really have any reason to believe Vader > Anakin. Stomping Dooku if taken at face value is far better his extended engagements against Ahsoka and Kenobi.

Originally posted by MythLord
No.


Show me Anakin doing something (in Canon) on the level of crushing an At-At then and prove Dooku is substantially > Rebels Maul, and I'll concede.

Otherwise you should.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Show me Anakin doing something (in Canon) on the level of crushing an At-At

Crushing the barracks of Mon Calamari. Also Vader didn't crush it. He stopped it's charge and caused it's top to start caving in.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
then and prove Dooku is substantially > Rebels Maul, and I'll concede.

Why would he need to be substantially ahead of Rebels Maul? There's nothing noting Vader is far ahead of him, and Dooku would just need to be slightly ahead of Maul for Zone!Anakin to sh!t on him given how he was trouncing Tyranus.

Also, SoD has an injured Dooku's lightning giving more power to Sidious than Maul's entire channel of dark side energy gave to Talzin, despite them being in the heart of Talzin's power. So that's already enough to infer Dooku is considerably ahead of Maul.

Originally posted by MythLord
Crushing the barracks of Mon Calamari. When?

I think he's referring to Anakin bringing down that underwater tower in TCW. Also, Beni--pretty sure "perfection of the spirit" in in reference to his mindset. I.E he's no longer conflicted/out of control, and has completed his conversion to the dark side. Still broken and weaker in the Force, though.

Then that's a pathetic feat compared to Vader's.

Yeah, Anakin doesn't have any force feats on Vader's level, especially not in canon

Originally posted by Rebel95
Yeah, Anakin doesn't have any force feats on Vader's level, especially not in canon


Yeah his big feat (minus Mortis) is trouncing Dooku. But given Rebels Maul is no match for Vader, and given Vader's Insane TK feats, I doubt the Dooku win puts him massively ahead of Vader. But tbf he isn't massively beneath Vader either.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Um the fact that he was wrong, his broken body didn't perfect his spirit, and it didn't strengthen his connection to the Force, you've just conceded as much. So his opinions are debunked.



He never claimed his Broken Body strengthened his connection to the Force. He claimed his rage and anger did.

Perfecting his spirit is a pretty silly thing to "debunk". That's obviously down to his beliefs.



Originally posted by Beniboybling
Beyond that, we don't really have any reason to believe Vader > Anakin. Stomping Dooku if taken at face value is far better his extended engagements against Ahsoka and Kenobi.


And what about Anakin's extended engagement against Kenobi? Lol

Fact is there's nothing to prove he's weaker. You're even taking ROTS Palpatine's thoughts out of context, given he couldn't know anything beyond ROTS.


Originally posted by MythLord
Crushing the barracks of Mon Calamari. Also Vader didn't crush it. He stopped it's charge and caused it's top to start caving in.


Given the length of time that took, and not done in combat, it's not even close.



Originally posted by MythLord
Why would he need to be substantially ahead of Rebels Maul? There's nothing noting Vader is far ahead of him, and Dooku would just need to be slightly ahead of Maul for Zone!Anakin to sh!t on him given how he was trouncing Tyranus.

Also, SoD has an injured Dooku's lightning giving more power to Sidious than Maul's entire channel of dark side energy gave to Talzin, despite them being in the heart of Talzin's power. So that's already enough to infer Dooku is considerably ahead of Maul.


I don't understand any of this.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
But given Rebels Maul is no match for Vader,

Clearly untrue; Ahsoka proved to be a legitimate challenge, and Maul should be at least as well off as she. At best, you could argue Maul's chances of victory were too poor for him to want to go for it. Which, keeping in mind that Rebels Maul is not as strong as he was at his peak, is not nearly as impressive as being able to trounce Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He never claimed his Broken Body strengthened his connection to the Force. He claimed his rage and anger did.

Perfecting his spirit is a pretty silly thing to "debunk". That's obviously down to his beliefs."His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."

Wrong I'm afraid.

And of course this all comes down to his beliefs, Vader believes that his broken body made him stronger, but this is simply not the case, ergo. his beliefs are unreliable.

He was emotionally compromised. Evidently.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Given the length of time that took, and not done in combat, it's not even close.

Given Anakin grew vastly, and was manipulating a larger object... it does.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't understand any of this.

> No proof Vader is substantially ahead of Maul, besides Maul's lies
> Dooku would be substantially ahead of SoD Maul, given he aided Sidious to a greater affect than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a far worse state to do so
> Zone!Anakin is >> Dooku, who is > SoD Maul. So Zone!Anakin would be substantially ahead of even Rebels Maul if you buy into him growing more powerful

We done here?

Even if Anakin's performance against Dooku is above Vader's capabilities, he isn't able to consistently perform at that level.

Anyone else but me find it weird that Anakin/Vader or well Vader is suppose to be one of the strongest Force Users in the mythos(full potential aside), yet we see him rather lackluster compared to a good chunk of Force Users in terms of Force abilities?

I mean aside from The Ones showing...it's like he just seems...I dunno, average compared to what his potential is?

I get that he can't be like tapping into his full potential or anything, but he still has ridiculous reserves of power and yet what he does tap into....I'm not really getting this whole Chosen One vibe.

Not sure if my wording makes sense, but hopefully the gist of it is there.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Anyone else but me find it weird that Anakin/Vader or well Anakin* is suppose to be one of the strongest Force Users in the mythos(full potential aside), yet we see him rather lackluster compared to a good chunk of Force Users in terms of Force abilities?

I mean aside from The Ones showing...it's like he just seems...I dunno, average compared to what his potential is?

I get that he can't be like tapping into his full potential or anything, but he still has ridiculous reserves of power and yet what he does tap into....I'm not really getting this whole Chosen One vibe.

Not sure if my wording makes sense, but hopefully the gist of it is there.

Anakin* not Vader.

Originally posted by MythLord
Given Anakin grew vastly, and was manipulating a larger object... it does.



A larger object, but took a lot more time, was not applicable in combat and not nearly as indestructible as an AT-AT.

"Grew vastly" is not a quantifiable feat.


Originally posted by MythLord


> No proof Vader is substantially ahead of Maul, besides Maul's lies
> Dooku would be substantially ahead of SoD Maul, given he aided Sidious to a greater affect than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a far worse state to do so
> Zone!Anakin is >> Dooku, who is > SoD Maul. So Zone!Anakin would be substantially ahead of even Rebels Maul if you buy into him growing more powerful

We done here?

> Ah so despite Maul admitting it, and Everyone working on the Rebels crew confirming it, including Maul's own voice actor, you're just going to pretend it isn't true.. So... Denial much?
> Worst logic ever. Dooku was shooting Lightning directly, Maul was adding power to Talzin's. A messy comparison to say the least, and no proof at all how that would translate into a Saber fight between the 2.
> This Zone!Anakin you speak off might have only lasted a few seconds. Sure he was more powerful than Dooku, but if he was consistently so Uber, and able to "stomp" Dooku anytime, then surely he wouldn't have got drop kicked and incapacitated for almost 10 seconds. Raw power of inconsistent use only goes so far.
Given Vader is also substantially ahead of Maul, I don't see what you're trying to prove.

Yes I think I am done.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."

Wrong I'm afraid.

And of course this all comes down to his beliefs, Vader believes that his broken body made him stronger, but this is simply not the case, ergo. his beliefs are unreliable.


The suffering from his injuries perfected his spirit (I.e. His connection to the dark side) and hence his connection to the Force.

Just like Maul's injuries did.

Or was TCW/SOD Maul also weaker than TPM Maul?

There's literally no reason not to believe Vader that he's built a stronger and more consistent connection to the Force over time.



Originally posted by Beniboybling


He was emotionally compromised. Evidently.

Given it's quite usual for Anakin to perform inconsistently (heck happens in the Dooku fight), that excuse only goes so far like ares has pointed out. Sure he was more powerful than Kenobi, but after that fight it's pretty laughable to rank him ahead of Vader based on the Vader vs Ben fight.

Vader also solidly overpowered Ahsoka whose likely a peer of ROTS Kenobi.

And The older Vader was overpowering the older Kenobi as well.


Not the mention..you know.. AT-AT crushing fears beyond Anakin. I can bring up more canon Vader feats if you like this prove that wasn't some one-off case.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The suffering from his injuries perfected his spirit (I.e. His connection to the dark side) and hence his connection to the Force.

Just like Maul's injuries did.

Or was TCW/SOD Maul also weaker than TPM Maul?Except that just didn't happen, Anakin has a stronger and purer connection to the Force than Vader, period. You've already conceded this is the case, just for some reason are having trouble working out why it makes Vader wrong.

And you can make whatever assumptions regarding Maul that you like, doesn't change the facts regarding Vader.

There are plenty of reasons, foremost among them being that Sidious sought to replace him with Luke, who using his stronger connection to the Force, utterly obliterated him in combat.

Where was Vader's stronger and more consistent connection to the Force then?

Anakin is easily influenced by his emotions yes, what is this supposed to prove other than his performance against Kenobi being an outlier? Bearing in mind that this was the original intention of the fight according to Nick Gillard.

He did nothing of the sort, Ahsoka had an advantage over him at beginning of the duel, and even after 1:30 of fighting, he still hadn't managed to penetrate her defenses. And Vader failed to penetrate Kenobi's defenses either, over a similar span of time.

Anakin dismantled Dooku in 15 seconds, there is no comparison.

On what basis?

And if you have some means of proving they are "far beyond" Anakin, by all means knock yourself out.

But if your answer is "well Anakin hasn't done nuffin similar and he could't overpower kenobi!!11!!" then pls don't waste my time.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Which, keeping in mind that Rebels Maul is not as strong as he was at his peak, Has this actually been confirmed, or?

Knightfall, by a large margin too.

Just by comparing how Anakin/Vader fights in ROTS to how he does in ESB, block blaster bolts with his hands and casually hurling objects at Luke. And in Rogue One, it's clear he's more skilled with the force.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
A larger object, but took a lot more time, was not applicable in combat and not nearly as indestructible as an AT-AT.

Quantify why an already damaged vehicle is more indestructable than barracks meant to shield royalty incase of a massive war?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
"Grew vastly" is not a quantifiable feat.

It means he can pull it off at the drop of a hat later on, Einstein.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
> Ah so despite Maul admitting it, and Everyone working on the Rebels crew confirming it, including Maul's own voice actor, you're just going to pretend it isn't true.. So... Denial much?

They all say Vader is > Maul(though Maul is lying, for obvious reasons), but never say substantially. You're making it out like it's a big margin, despite Maul's inferior(Ahsoka) giving Vader hell on her own.

I don't want to hear your fanfiction.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
> Worst logic ever. Dooku was shooting Lightning directly, Maul was adding power to Talzin's. A messy comparison to say the least, and no proof at all how that would translate into a Saber fight between the 2.

Yes, Maul was adding power directly into Talzin. Dooku, who was injured, could only add a portion of his power through lightning to Sidious. It makes Tyranus look even better that he aided Sidious to a much greater extent than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a much worse state and offer less of his power.
The comparison is valid because raw power vs raw power has no circumstantial "form advantage" or anything like that. It's simple power against power, and Dooku's came out on top.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
> This Zone!Anakin you speak off might have only lasted a few seconds. Sure he was more powerful than Dooku, but if he was consistently so Uber, and able to "stomp" Dooku anytime, then surely he wouldn't have got drop kicked and incapacitated for almost 10 seconds. Raw power of inconsistent use only goes so far.
Given Vader is also substantially ahead of Maul, I don't see what you're trying to prove.

The Zone!Anakin refers to the enraged Anakin at the end of the fight on the Invisible Hand, dingus, not the one who Dooku was kicking back just a moment prior. When he goes full rage, he kills Dooku in the span of a few seconds. Maul would die in five, honestly. You can tote around how Vader's "substantially more powerful than Maul", he can't kill him in five seconds. Zone!Anakin can.

Originally posted by MythLord
despite Maul's inferior(Ahsoka) http://i.imgur.com/eOvqYVR.gif

Originally posted by Rebel95
Just by comparing how Anakin/Vader fights in ROTS to how he does in ESB, block blaster bolts with his hands and casually hurling objects at Luke. And in Rogue One, it's clear he's more skilled with the force.
debate me on it then

Originally posted by |King Joker|
http://i.imgur.com/eOvqYVR.gif

Maul's equal, Ahsoka?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
debate me on it then
Maybe, but I'm not really arguing that Vader is more powerful, just that his command of the force is superior. He had more power at his disposal as Anakin, but as Vader he's more skilled with the force, which makes sense if you think about it. He had 20+ years to learn new abilities and improve.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, Maul was adding power directly into Talzin. Dooku, who was injured, could only add a portion of his power through lightning to Sidious. It makes Tyranus look even better that he aided Sidious to a much greater extent than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a much worse state and offer less of his power.
The comparison is valid because raw power vs raw power has no circumstantial "form advantage" or anything like that. It's simple power against power, and Dooku's came out on top. You've been saying this for a while but seem to be skewing your interpretation well in favour of Tyranus without considering anything else. Like:

1. Viscus noting that the mere process of the ritual could weaken Talzin.

2. That Talzin never fully drained Dooku, thus wasn't at her full power.

3. That Talzin is probably weaker than Sidious as it is, who Dooku was fighting with.

The greatest discrepancy is with Sidious and Talzin, not Maul and Dooku. And there's no evident difference between Maul bolstering Talzin's barrier and Dooku pouring lightning against it.

I feel like taking a break from Maul debating has allowed you/Grey Sentinel/Lord of the Light etc to run rampant free of anyone to keep you in check. Shall I come to make your life difficult, or can you behave for Uncle ILS?

The Talzin vs Sidious part before Maul joins in always looked strangely even to me.

Although in fairness, it doesn't make much sense that Dooku, in such a weakened state, would still be that much more powerful than Maul's full power. Just how big is of a gap is there between each "level of power" in Barlow's mind?

Anakin had more raw power, Vader had more refinement... in the end they more or less equaled out i suppose.

Originally posted by MythLord
Maul's equal, Ahsoka? You're getting warmer.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Clearly untrue; Ahsoka proved to be a legitimate challenge, and Maul should be at least as well off as she. At best, you could argue Maul's chances of victory were too poor for him to want to go for it. Which, keeping in mind that Rebels Maul is not as strong as he was at his peak, is not nearly as impressive as being able to trounce Dooku.


Unfortunately the Dooku "trouncing" came after Dooku kick floored Anakin leaving him winded for a few seconds, and after Dooku fought the Kenobi/Anakin duo together trouncing Kenobi.

So Dooku was still a challenge and a threat to the inconsistent Anakin. But Anakin was the stronger combatant for sure.

Maul's power levels don't seem to have drastically changed one way or the other. So being his clear superior and solidly overpowering Ahsoka puts him roughly on ROTS Anakin/Vader's level IMO. And his TK feats are far superior as well (excluding Mortis).

Originally posted by MythLord
Quantify why an already damaged vehicle is more indestructable than barracks meant to shield royalty incase of a massive war?


LOL, It wasn't already damaged. Vader damaged it, in combat. He was crushing the thing. Meditating to collapse those barracks doesn't even compare Lol

And btw, that not Vader's only Canon Uber TK feat. All of which he does in an instant


Originally posted by MythLord
It means he can pull it off at the drop of a hat later on, Einstein.

Yeah just like he defeated Dooku and Kenobi at the drop of the hat right?

Because that'snexactly what "Vastly more powerful" means right?



Originally posted by MythLord
They all say Vader is > Maul(though Maul is lying, for obvious reasons), but never say substantially. You're making it out like it's a big margin, despite Maul's inferior(Ahsoka) giving Vader hell on her own.

I don't want to hear your fanfiction.


His lies are based around the truth. The whole Rebels team have outright confirmed that.

Vader was solidly above Ahsoka, who seems to at least be on par with Prime Kenobi/Maul.

The only fan fiction here is the idea that Anakin was also crushing AT-AT's.



Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, Maul was adding power directly into Talzin. Dooku, who was injured, could only add a portion of his power through lightning to Sidious. It makes Tyranus look even better that he aided Sidious to a much greater extent than Maul did Talzin, despite being in a much worse state and offer less of his power.
The comparison is valid because raw power vs raw power has no circumstantial "form advantage" or anything like that. It's simple power against power, and Dooku's came out on top.


We don't know how much of Maul's power Talzin was utilising.

And again, there's more to a Saber fight than just raw power.

Nobody will argue that Anakin has greater raw power at his disposal than Vader. But what matters is how effectively you can utilize that raw power in direct Saber/TK combat.




Originally posted by MythLord
The Zone!Anakin refers to the enraged Anakin at the end of the fight on the Invisible Hand, dingus, not the one who Dooku was kicking back just a moment prior. When he goes full rage, he kills Dooku in the span of a few seconds. Maul would die in five, honestly. You can tote around how Vader's "substantially more powerful than Maul", he can't kill him in five seconds. Zone!Anakin can.


Except "Invisible Hand" Anakin (as per the OP) includes the Anakin who got drop kicked.

You're whole argument is based on Anakin being better in a single moment which isn't how it works on versus boards.

Both Anakin and Vader are more powerful than Dooku, but whereas Anakin has shown a greater level of superiority in One Single Moment, Vader is far more consistent, and has the far superior TK feats.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
LOL, It wasn't already damaged. Vader damaged it, in combat. He was crushing the thing. Meditating to collapse those barracks doesn't even compare Lol

And btw, that not Vader's only Canon Uber TK feat. All of which he does in an instant

He wasn't crushing it. He was tearing off pieces bit by bit. Hardly something Anakin is incapable of.
Anakin wasn't even in need of concentration to bring down the barracks, and he's still collapsing a structure much larger than an AT-AT.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah just like he defeated Dooku and Kenobi at the drop of the hat right?

Because that'snexactly what "Vastly more powerful" means right?

Because beating Dooku is the same as collapsing a structure, right? What a stupid comparison that is.
And you know that he was hindered against Kenobi. By now that should be common knowledge. And not stomping Kenobi doesn't equal being incapable of stopping an AT-AT, lmao.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
His lies are based around the truth. The whole Rebels team have outright confirmed that.

Quotes, please.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Vader was solidly above Ahsoka, who seems to at least be on par with Prime Kenobi/Maul.

HA! No. StarWars.com confirms Maul's superiority over Ahsoka, and he wasn't that solidly ahead given there was a point in the conflict where she effectively stone-walled him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only fan fiction here is the idea that Anakin was also crushing AT-AT's.

And whatever you're trying to push...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
We don't know how much of Maul's power Talzin was utilising.

And again, there's more to a Saber fight than just raw power.

We know she would've been utilising as much as she needed to counterbalance Dooku, and it still didn't work. Dooku's power is just considerably ahead of Maul's.

Raw power is one of the biggest driving factors in a lightsaber duel. It's how Kanan beat the Grand Inquisitor, how Bane was beating Kas'im, how Anakin was beating Dooku, etc.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nobody will argue that Anakin has greater raw power at his disposal than Vader. But what matters is how effectively you can utilize that raw power in direct Saber/TK combat.

Anakin applies it quite well, especially by RotS.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except "Invisible Hand" Anakin (as per the OP) includes the Anakin who got drop kicked.

You're whole argument is based on Anakin being better in a single moment which isn't how it works on versus boards.

Yes, because that one moment is Zone!Anakin. A state that Anakin only replicates later during Operation Knightfall, which is longer than a single moment. And in that state, he makes Dooku look like a child.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Both Anakin and Vader are more powerful than Dooku, but whereas Anakin has shown a greater level of superiority in One Single Moment, Vader is far more consistent, and has the far superior TK feats.

It wasn't one single moment; he was driving Dooku back consistently within the fight.
In one single moment, he was ahead of even Yoda given how badly he was wrecking Dooku. Anakin by Knightfall is in a similar state of mind, hence he rivals Anakin "in that one moment", but it lasts longer than one moment, so it counts. Vader can be more powerful than Dooku all he wants, he's still not going to downright murk him ala Anakin.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Talzin vs Sidious part before Maul joins in always looked strangely even to me. I don't remember the exact ordering of the panels, but what I do remember is this: the fight started as a lightning duel, but when Maul supplemented Talzin, it was him supplementing her barrier. Ergo, she had to have been on the defensive before he added anything to the fight.

That and the evidence for Talzin being weakened before the fight even started should cause the case for Dooku having a large impact on the fight to crumble.

Originally posted by MythLord
He wasn't crushing it. He was tearing off pieces bit by bit. Hardly something Anakin is incapable of.
Anakin wasn't even in need of concentration to bring down the barracks, and he's still collapsing a structure much larger than an AT-AT.


Yes he was crushing it. Denial will get you no where.

He stopped it, carrying it's weight (Anakin has no such lifting feats), and then began crushing it to bits.

And you know how indestructible AT-AT's are right? Proof the barracks are as durable?

You're blowing the barracks feat well out of proportion. It's not even close to the AT-AT feat. After meditating for a moment he collapsed the supports for the building to drop. Not even comparable to carrying and crushing an almost Indestructible giant war machine like an AT-AT.

Plus Vader redirects torpedoes of X-Wings. Plus he crashes massive boulders to crush X-Wings. Plus he solos Rebel fleets... Need I go on. You're not making any case for Anakin at all that even comes close to such remarkable feats.


Because beating Dooku is the same as collapsing a structure, right? What a stupid comparison that is.
And you know that he was hindered against Kenobi. By now that should be common knowledge. And not stomping Kenobi doesn't equal being incapable of stopping an AT-AT, lmao.



Originally posted by MythLord
Quotes, please.


FPJ has said it twice on Collider Jedi Council. Sam Witwer himself has said it. Dave Filoni has said Maul almost met Vader in Twilight of the Apprentice, and he was going to die to Vader had that happened.



Originally posted by MythLord
HA! No. StarWars.com confirms Maul's superiority over Ahsoka, and he wasn't that solidly ahead given there was a point in the conflict where she effectively stone-walled him.


Maul fought her. There was no superiority.

Vader had her lying on the Temple floor. Just because Vader was distracted by other things, doesn't take away the fact that he did solidly overpower her.

Just as he would to Maul, Kenobi or Dooku.



Originally posted by MythLord
And whatever you're trying to push...

It's The New Canon pushing it, not me.




Originally posted by MythLord
We know she would've been utilising as much as she needed to counterbalance Dooku, and it still didn't work. Dooku's power is just considerably ahead of Maul's.

Raw power is one of the biggest driving factors in a lightsaber duel. It's how Kanan beat the Grand Inquisitor, how Bane was beating Kas'im, how Anakin was beating Dooku, etc.


Again, silly proof, and a pretty desperate argument to put Dooku ahead of Maul.

The better argument would be that when Mace thought they were working together that he assumed Dooku was the Master. But I've realized I won't be getting and decent arguments from you.





Originally posted by MythLord
Anakin applies it quite well, especially by RotS.



Still gets drop kicked by Dooku, and fails to protect Obi-Wan.




Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, because that one moment is Zone!Anakin. A state that Anakin only replicates later during Operation Knightfall, which is longer than a single moment. And in that state, he makes Dooku look like a child.


Except this debate isn't about which "moment" was the greatest for Anakin/Vader. But which period he was at his peak.

The OP splits ROTS time period into IH and KF, but again Anakin got dropped kicked on the IH as well so... Although is we were to talk about eras then ROTS Anakin would include Mustafar Anakin. Like I said too much inconsistency. The only consistent thing about ROTS Anakin (or IH Anakin), is that he was > Dooku.

And FYI, if you want to talk single moments, then Mortis Anakin controlling the Son and Daughter was BY Far Anakin/Vader's Peak moment.




Originally posted by MythLord
It wasn't one single moment; he was driving Dooku back consistently within the fight.


Like I already stated, he was clearly more powerful than Dooku... But then so is Vader.



Originally posted by MythLord
In one single moment, he was ahead of even Yoda given how badly he was wrecking Dooku. Anakin by Knightfall is in a similar state of mind, hence he rivals Anakin "in that one moment", but it lasts longer than one moment, so it counts. Vader can be more powerful than Dooku all he wants, he's still not going to downright murk him ala Anakin.


Prove Knightfall Anakin was equal to Zone!Anakin. Feats for KF Anakin that compare..

Because all I see here is fanboy dreams and speculation tbh. No proof or feats or valid and constructive arguments at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except that just didn't happen, Anakin has a stronger and purer connection to the Force than Vader, period. You've already conceded this is the case, just for some reason are having trouble working out why it makes Vader wrong.


No I never conceded that. I said Anakin had more "raw power" in the force. Doesn't mean he could utilize it anywhere near as well as Vader could utilize his power.

I also conceded that Anakin/Vader lost power IN ROTS. That doesn't mean he can't master the force and grow in power again later.

Btw have you seen Rogue One? Vader's castle seems to be on Musatafar. A constant reminder of how he got mutilated by Kenobi. What better way to keep that Rage growing inside him, constantly feeding his power.



Originally posted by Beniboybling
And you can make whatever assumptions regarding Maul that you like, doesn't change the facts regarding Vader.


So you think TPM Maul >>> SOD Maul then?

Answer the question instead of jumping around a comparison in Canon which is almost exactly the same.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
There are plenty of reasons, foremost among them being that Sidious sought to replace him with Luke, who using his stronger connection to the Force, utterly obliterated him in combat.

Where was Vader's stronger and more consistent connection to the Force then?


It;s almost as if Vader lost some "potential" when he got screwed up. Did I not already mention that? Pretty sure I did.

Palpatine was interested in converting Luke in ESB, and we saw Vader beat Luke in ESB.

As for ROTJ, it's almost as if Vader might have been conflicted..

Also he never once used TK on Luke.



Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anakin is easily influenced by his emotions yes, what is this supposed to prove other than his performance against Kenobi being an outlier? Bearing in mind that this was the original intention of the fight according to Nick Gillard.


But Vader vs Luke was a consistent performance right?


Originally posted by Beniboybling
He did nothing of the sort, Ahsoka had an advantage over him at beginning of the duel, and even after 1:30 of fighting, he still hadn't managed to penetrate her defenses. And Vader failed to penetrate Kenobi's defenses either, over a similar span of time.


Oh please, he forced pushed her sending her flying to the Temple floor, and then he walked away. He was solidly above her.

Given they stopped to talk a couple of times in that fight, and Kenobi gave his life, we really don't know how long Kenobi could last if both of them just shut up and fight.

But what we do know is that Vader > Kenobi. Don't use 1977 choreography on a tight budget as a way to lowball Vader. I'm sure Ahsoka was Ben's equal at least.


Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anakin dismantled Dooku in 15 seconds, there is no comparison.

No he didn't:

?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=98s

Fight starts at 1:07 and finished at 2:35.


That's almost One and a half minutes. You don't just get to ignore Anakin's inconsistency and start the fight where you like. Especially when you ignore the breaks in the Vader vs Ben fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On what basis? And if you have some means of proving they are "far beyond" Anakin, by all means knock yourself out.

But if your answer is "well Anakin hasn't done nuffin similar and he could't overpower kenobi!!11!!" then pls don't waste my time.


So wait what, we're just going to assume the guy who couldn't overpower ROTS Kenobi in a force push has TK equivalent to Vader's Awesome feats unless I Prove Otherwise?

Sorry it doesn't work like that. I've made the case for Vader, now it's for you to make the case for Anakin.

You forgot to mention Vader lifting two AT-STs off of him, pulling a freighter out of the sky and pulverizing armored lyleks with a force push in LOTS, and the fact that he's able to effectively use the force in combat situations like in ESB and Rogue one

If we are using rOTS video-game feats for Anakin, then statue's feat seems to be superior to lifting AT-STs.

Originally posted by ILS
I don't remember the exact ordering of the panels, but what I do remember is this: the fight started as a lightning duel, but when Maul supplemented Talzin, it was him supplementing her barrier. Ergo, she had to have been on the defensive before he added anything to the fight.

That and the evidence for Talzin being weakened before the fight even started should cause the case for Dooku having a large impact on the fight to crumble.

What evidence? Viscus' claim?

Talzin exclaims that she's "whole" anyway. Besides, we know that Sidious is factually more powerful than Talzin, yet you're suggesting that a weakened Talzin can still go toe-to-toe, or even equal, with him? There's no reconciliation.

And actually, no, Talzin was still using Lightning when Maul intervened. It was only when Dooku started joining in that Talzin reverted to Barrier, which is part of the argument for Dooku's weakened Lightning contributing more than Maul's power donation.