Why is Maul the weakest of Sidious's apprentices?

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carthage
Whether it's losing to Padawans or having inferior force feats to Dooku and Vader, what are the reasons you believe Maul to be so far behind Sidious's apprentices. Why is it Maul has no notable showings of barrier, can't use force lightning, and only focused on Swordsmanship like a jock meathead. Why can't Maul be on par with Dooku or Vader in the force?

Fated Xtasy
Because while Filoni still draws breath. Maul will continously under go Saibamen worthy failursyes

relentless1
I like the EU explanation that he was only trained and meant to be used as a Sith Assassin. Makes perfect sense and explains why he's so inferior.

SunRazer
The EU has two different explanations on Maul.

Darth Thor
Well Dooku was decades more experienced than Maul and had pretty much fulfilled his potential (minus the boost he could have gotten from any dark side secrets Palpatine kept from him).

And Vader was just a superior choice to both Maul and Dooku being the chosen one and all.

Also Maul's Potential was likely capped after he got cut in half.

SunRazer
It's down to the fact that Maul was just the youngest of the lot.

McP
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Also Maul's Potential was likely capped after he got cut in half.
Hard to tell. Talzin's powers were very specyfic. He could be partly healed, he could regain all of his powers or he could became even more powerful, like Savage.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by SunRazer
It's down to the fact that Maul was just the youngest of the lot.


Vader's younger than Maul.

NewGuy01
Not when you're comparing Maul as of his apprenticeship to Sidious to Vader as of his?

Darth Thor
Well yeah not then. I guess him losing his Master/Teacher caused more harm than him losing his legs.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by relentless1
I like the EU explanation that he was only trained and meant to be used as a Sith Assassin. Makes perfect sense and explains why he's so inferior.

Tbh, though I wouldn't say he's inferior to them in all aspects. But yeah, I'm not sure why the EU tried going in two different directions with him before the Canon revamp.

Now Canon wise...yeah that is kinda weird given he's further expanded upon with TCW.

But Legends it's pretty straightforward despite the EU trying to write something else.

The Merchant
Vader is weaker.

MythLord
Originally posted by The Merchant
Vader is weaker.

sick

Nephthys
Because his competition is the Chosen One and a prodigy with 7 decades of training?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because his competition is the Chosen One and a prodigy with 7 decades of training?

thumb up

Beniboybling
And yet despite that would give either of them a fight.

Darth Thor
thumb up thumb up

ILS
There's kind of a reason every time something embarrassing happens to Maul it becomes a meme.

Shit doesn't make sense.

They created the perfect warrior and then ran out of shit to do with him.

Nephthys
A perfect warrior who can't react to a guy jumping over him and attacking, yeah.

Maul was a failure from the start. There was nothing perfect about him.

ILS
It's almost like he spent the last 10 minutes having the time of his life fighting that guy and his master at the same time. Yeah, because then it'd seem a little disingenuous to assert that he now can't react to said guy jumping over him, and was simply caught off-guard.

Maybe it has something to do with that guy needing to return in 5 later instalments of the franchise.

Nephthys
It's almost as if he'd won before inviting failure on himself like a dumbass by playing with Obi-Wan instead of finishing him off.

Him being a cocky moron who humbles himself by being an over-confident jackass with poor decision making was there from the start. He's not perfect and he never was.

ILS
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's almost as if he'd won before inviting failure on himself like a dumbass by playing with Obi-Wan instead of finishing him off. You're finally catching on. Hence my point. Maul beating himself was more plausible than two Jedi, one of which was plot-protected.

He's clearly very powerful, in insane physical shape, has trained relentlessly for two decades, he's highly intelligent - he has none of the typical drawbacks others have shown such as inexperience, age, prosthetic limitations, and so on. The only thing they could come up with, and continue to come up with, is his arrogance.

Which is shitty storytelling. Good storytelling is having Maul lose fights simply because he deserved to lose, e.g a slugfest with Windu, Dooku or Vader, instead of repeatedly bumping heads with Kenobi's plot armour over and over again. He's had the guy dead to rights like seven times now.

I expect all of this to fly straight over your head, but all the same I'd be interested to see you make an intelligent rebuttal for once.

Nephthys
He does deserve to lose. He's incredibly incompetent.

DarthDuelist9
Your wasting your time Swords, he's a lost cause.

Darth Thor
Well to be fair Neph was totally right about Ezra kicking Maul big grin

Kurk
Da hell is this? Vader is the most pathetic and weakest of the apprentices.

cdtm
Originally posted by ILS
You're finally catching on. Hence my point. Maul beating himself was more plausible than two Jedi, one of which was plot-protected.

He's clearly very powerful, in insane physical shape, has trained relentlessly for two decades, he's highly intelligent - he has none of the typical drawbacks others have shown such as inexperience, age, prosthetic limitations, and so on. The only thing they could come up with, and continue to come up with, is his arrogance.

Which is shitty storytelling. Good storytelling is having Maul lose fights simply because he deserved to lose, e.g a slugfest with Windu, Dooku or Vader, instead of repeatedly bumping heads with Kenobi's plot armour over and over again. He's had the guy dead to rights like seven times now.

I expect all of this to fly straight over your head, but all the same I'd be interested to see you make an intelligent rebuttal for once.

Yep, bad storytelling.

The same story telling that has Dooku utterly dominate Obi Wan every time, struggle with his apprentice he taught everything to and eventually get killed against, and yet that same master you toy with match's his far superior student (Who's growing power was a stated plot point) in everything, including a raw test of strength force push.

People have their personal explanations for all that (Anakin was unbalanced, like he wasn't unstable since AOTC. Or different "styles", which somehow give Anakin an edge against Dooku but none against Obi), but if fans are making shit up, the movie didn't do it's job.

TenebrousWay
TCW and Rebels destroyed Maul, let's be honest.

ILS
Originally posted by cdtm
Yep, bad storytelling.

The same story telling that has Dooku utterly dominate Obi Wan every time, struggle with his apprentice he taught everything to and eventually get killed against, and yet that same master you toy with match's his far superior student (Who's growing power was a stated plot point) in everything, including a raw test of strength force push.

People have their personal explanations for all that (Anakin was unbalanced, like he wasn't unstable since AOTC. Or different "styles", which somehow give Anakin an edge against Dooku but none against Obi), but if fans are making shit up, the movie didn't do it's job. The point of Anakin is that he's an exception, as in higher midichlorians than Yoda. I agree that it isn't totally self-evident as to why Obi-Wan stalemated him, though the whole conflict of feelings thing could be reached by fans.

relentless1
Originally posted by cdtm
Yep, bad storytelling.

The same story telling that has Dooku utterly dominate Obi Wan every time, struggle with his apprentice he taught everything to and eventually get killed against, and yet that same master you toy with match's his far superior student (Who's growing power was a stated plot point) in everything, including a raw test of strength force push.

People have their personal explanations for all that (Anakin was unbalanced, like he wasn't unstable since AOTC. Or different "styles", which somehow give Anakin an edge against Dooku but none against Obi), but if fans are making shit up, the movie didn't do it's job.

its quite clear watching RTOS that Anakin had Obi on the ropes, all he could do was try to outlast Anakin and that wasnt going to happen so he jumped away and Anakins dumb ass went and followed him, had it happened any other way Obi Wan would've been dead.

Deronn_solo
Maul and Dooku are equals in the Force, imo.

carthage
ILS blames bad storytelling when Maul loses to multiple padawans, struggles with dogs, utterly fails as a varied force user, and will die to Kenobi in season 3.

Keep blaming the plot lmao, Maul is just shit

quanchi112
Originally posted by carthage
ILS blames bad storytelling when Maul loses to multiple padawans, struggles with dogs, utterly fails as a varied force user, and will die to Kenobi in season 3.

Keep blaming the plot lmao, Maul is just shit You are ignoring the context and trying to spin it because you're incredibly insecure over Maul. Maul has resisted death for decades and has survived on his own. He is an impact player so please keep your envy in check.

carthage
Impact players don't beg for their lives like little bitches, fail to have any impact even with the backing of Mandalorians, and admit inferiority to other Sith

I'll collect your tears Quan and give them to your boyfriend Thor

quanchi112
Originally posted by carthage
Impact players don't beg for their lives like little bitches, fail to have any impact even with the backing of Mandalorians, and admit inferiority to other Sith

I'll collect your tears Quan and give them to your boyfriend Thor Yes, they do. Palpatine begged for his life as well. Cuck's like Dooku don't even offer a defense when they were betrayed. He did have an impact hence Palpatine's interference in which he clearly calls him a rival.

Plenty of Sith admit their inferiors as apprentices to their masters. Your knowledge and your bias is about as plan to see as w white head pimple about to burst due to the pressure building up. You are having a meltdown and its glorious.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by carthage
ILS blames bad storytelling when Maul loses to multiple padawans,


Still waiting for the names of these "multiple" padawans Troll.

Geistalt
He was trained by the weakest incarnation of Sidious, for one.

carthage
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Still waiting for the names of these "multiple" padawans Troll.

TPM Obi Wan, And Kanan Jarrus

Cry more my son

quanchi112
Maul is his greatest apprentice making this thread highly amusing.

Geistalt
Originally posted by quanchi112
Maul is his greatest apprentice making this thread highly amusing. You'll eat those words when Obi-Wan kills him.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
You'll eat those words when Obi-Wan kills him. What would that prove ? Do be a dear and explain thyself.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by carthage
TPM Obi Wan, And Kanan Jarrus

Cry more my son


Hahah What a laughable List after you've been trolling on about it all this time!


Kanan was a Jedi Knight Dummy! LMAO.

So let's count now (if you know how to count that is). That's a total of ONE Padawan he lost to. SINGULAR. Do you know the difference betweeen Singular and Plural? Probably not.

Oh and guess what? Vader also lost to a Padawan Lol

But yeah your Long lost of 1 single Padawan. The same Padawan whose been unable to properly defeat Maul again, even though he's a Jedi Master later Lol


You know nothing about SW Canon. But hey Carry on Trolling anyway. Because You're clearly not any good at debating thumb up

relentless1
maybe if Maul didn't spend so much time with the facepaint he'd be a better force user!!

Darth Thor
Perhaps people should stop trolling Maul, and actually make arguments against him instead in versus threads instead.

I get that it was a funny joke for a while (which even I took part in for a time due to my annoyance at the Kanan thing), but joke's over now.

Nephthys
Ahsoka humbled him as well tbh.

Plus there's the fact that he chickened out of fighting Kanan even when having a perfect backstab opportunity.

The guy is a complete dumbass. He ****s up so easily because of his arrogance, it's astounding.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ahsoka humbled him as well tbh.

The guy is a complete dumbass. He ****s up so easily because of his arrogance, it's astounding. There were other factors involved. Kenobi and Anakin in rots without facing a Sith were caught in shields. You ignore this and try to paint an unjust picture about Maul while ironically whining about the treatment Bane receives. This makes you a hypocrite.

Darth Thor
Dunno about that. He clearly has screwed up in the past. But Ahsoka laid a trap for him and had him outnumbered. And Kanan was in some kind of force amp.

Nephthys
Anakin and Obi-Wan **** up all the time as well though, they aren't exactly bastions of competence.

Not as bad as Maul though.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Nephthys
Anakin and Obi-Wan **** up all the time as well though, they aren't exactly bastions of competence.

Not as bad as Maul though. So you just undermined your own point. You think these guys are spotless. They aren't. Hell, Vader was even wounded by a pitiful Luke at the time of ESB. Maul is an animal. His duel against Sidious confirms the obvious.

Kurk
The pathetic excuse of a sith Vader allowed himself to become a quadriplegic due to his extreme arrogance and impatience. This mistake cost him his "chosen-one" potential and resulted in his status as Sidious's loverboy for the rest of his life. Sidious didn't even teach Vader a single sith art because of the failure he was. That trumps anything Maul has done.

quanchi112
Vader's failures could fill a book. He makes me sick even thinking about this burn victim who can't accept loss in his life. Your wife and mothers were whores just deal with it, loser.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk
The pathetic excuse of a sith Vader allowed himself to become a quadriplegic due to his extreme arrogance and impatience.


Well yeah good point. Plus he was also defeated by a Padawan.

The double standards of Maul haters in play.

Kurk
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well yeah good point. Plus he was also defeated by a Padawan.

The double standards of Maul haters in play. not at all. The consequences of Vader's actions destroyed him for life whereas Maul was always able to get back on his feet.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk
not at all. The consequences of Vader's actions destroyed him for life whereas Maul was always able to get back on his feet.


Maul's life was also pretty much destroyed.


"I was supposed to be... so much more" (TCW)

"The Sith have taken everything from me" (Rebels)

"Relics from my past at a time when my power was almost absolute" (Rebels)

Geistalt
Originally posted by quanchi112
What would that prove ? That Vader > Obi-Wan > Maul.

Wouldn't be surprised if Chris Filoni did that.

Geistalt
er, Dave Filoni.

Got him confused with Chris Avellone.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Geistalt
That Vader > Obi-Wan > Maul.

Wouldn't be surprised if Chris Filoni did that. Not at all.

Kenobi bested Vader at his best and somehow you believe Vader is greater than Kenobi. In ANH Kenobi stopped fight back.

Maul has gotten the best of Kenobi whereas Vader never has when he didn't allow it.

relentless1
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not at all.

Kenobi bested Vader at his best and somehow you believe Vader is greater than Kenobi. In ANH Kenobi stopped fight back.

Maul has gotten the best of Kenobi whereas Vader never has when he didn't allow it.

Watch the fight in ROTS again, Obi was at the end of his rope, Anakin was clearly going to kill him if the fight dragged out any longer. You'll notice that at several key moment Obi Wan was just trying to put some distance between himself and Anakin because he knew he was losing ground. The ONLY reason Anakin lost that fight is because he was foolish enough to jump over Obi Wan head, thus leaving himself open to a slice n dice.

Darth Thor
^ To be fair, even if he chose not to make that jump, the fight was a stalemate. Anakin wouldn't be able to move without Kenobi besting him, and Kenobi wouldn't be able to move without giving Anakin the opportunity to escape his inferior position.

Still it's not like Anakin to lose a battle tactically. So he clearly wasn't in the best state of mind. And that certainly wasn't Vader at his best Lol

quanchi112
Originally posted by relentless1
Watch the fight in ROTS again, Obi was at the end of his rope, Anakin was clearly going to kill him if the fight dragged out any longer. You'll notice that at several key moment Obi Wan was just trying to put some distance between himself and Anakin because he knew he was losing ground. The ONLY reason Anakin lost that fight is because he was foolish enough to jump over Obi Wan head, thus leaving himself open to a slice n dice. Kenobi is a defensive fighter and he kept Vader at bay the entire fight. Vader didn't beat him at any point so your speculative nonsense aside we have only the facts. Dooku bested him rather quickly twice Vader was unable to do so in a prolonged fight. The reason he lost puts his combat acumen into question. He's flat out retarded and unable to properly judge his own limitations. Kenobi took limbs from him and watched him burn. He deserved it.

Geistalt
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not at all.

Kenobi bested Vader at his best and somehow you believe Vader is greater than Kenobi. In ANH Kenobi stopped fight back.

Maul has gotten the best of Kenobi whereas Vader never has when he didn't allow it. RotJ Vader > RotS Vader

RotS Obi-Wan just barely outfought RotS Vader.

They were pretty evenly matched as of TCW (although everyone always argues that "Obi-Wan was unbalanced"wink.

It would be nice if Maul turned out to be stronger, tbh.

Shame his feats against Kanan and Ahsoka showed otherwise.

Darth Thor
^ Anakin was the unbalanced one.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by Geistalt
Shame his feats against Kanan and Ahsoka showed otherwise. Not really.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Anakin was the unbalanced one. I meant the couple of times Obi-Wan fought Maul in TCW.

DarthDuelist9
Maul's potential was cut in half when he was 22 years old, then he proceeds to be useless for a dozen years until we meet him in TCW, compare that to Vader (the guy with the highest potential ever) and Dooku (someone who received training from Yoda and Sidious for 75 years) and you know the answer. The thing is, what Maul accomplished in TPM (age 22) is almost unpreceded in the entire mythos, that afterwards he didn't receive even a fraction of the training someone like Dooku or even Vader did can't really be hold against him.

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