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can any herald lvl or below take down a really pissed off flash with full use of the speed force? i am trying to settle an argument with a friend i hope you all can help.

1. Professor Xavier (can put people to sleep just by thinking it, without even visually sighting that person)

2. Psylocke (can effectively induce hallucinations, making people see her where she isn't, blinding people to where she actually is, thoroughly convince them they are actively using a power they are actually NOT using, etcetera. For an example of the last, see X-Men #7 or thereabouts, circa 1992, where Psylocke convinces Omega Red he has released his lethal life-draining "death" spores on her -- to absolutely no effect.)

3. Mastermind. Jason Wyndegarde (spelling?)
See the primal Dark Phoenix saga.

4. Black Cat w/ bad luck powers, Spider-Man comics, circa 1985.
Unconscious, always active aura that nearly unfailingly causes anyone who wishes harm to suffer disabling misfortune. Worked even on machines and allies.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1. Professor Xavier (can put people to sleep just by thinking it, without even visually sighting that person)

2. Psylocke (can effectively induce hallucinations, making people see her where she isn't, blinding people to where she actually is, thoroughly convince them they are actively using a power they are actually NOT using, etcetera. For an example of the last, see X-Men #7 or thereabouts, circa 1992, where Psylocke convinces Omega Red he has released his lethal life-draining "death" spores on her -- to absolutely no effect.)

3. Mastermind. Jason Wyndegarde (spelling?)
See the primal Dark Phoenix saga.

4. Black Cat w/ bad luck powers, Spider-Man comics, circa 1985.
Unconscious, always active aura that nearly unfailingly causes anyone who wishes harm to suffer disabling misfortune. Worked even on machines and allies.

Eh....
No

Have we ever seen a flash with full (and I mean full) use of the speed force
Wouldn't a flash like that have full kinetic energy control and the omnipresence
If so the answer is no to your question
If not the answer is still no except for possibly silver surfer, he is the only one who stands a chance

Maybe green lantern

Dracula can with his Dual Adamantine Katanas and an army of 10,000 fledgling vampires and his undead army of wolves, undead wolves, bats, undead bats and other creatures of the night.

Full use of the speed force also includes time travel, btw, just saying.

Probably no one.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Full use of the speed force also includes time travel, btw, just saying.


Time travel is very impressive, but I can certainly see where it would fail, and I bet you can, too. Flash can lend speed and steal speed, for instance. He could turn a person into a living statue, right? What if this power backfires, though? He'd wind up a paperweight himself. What if he vibrated himself into a girder? A JLA teleported? What if he blacked out because he'd gone too long without eating in the mind-altered state the OP seems to be suggesting and pushed himself too hard -- while heading into the path of an oncoming train?

Implausible, right? But that's the point. Those off the wall scenarios become the most likely scenarios when facing yesteryear's Felicia Hardy.

I don't think people realize just how hax 1985 Black Cat's bad luck powers actually were. People were all but guaranteed to find ways to defeat themselves if they came anywhere in Cat's vicinity with hostile intentions. It also stopped machines, traps and other inanimate objects. The most agile and experienced of foes would become bumbling, inept fools, misjudging distances, tripping over their own feet or that of others, find their bodies betraying them by cramping up when standing, walking, running, etcetera. Bullets would fail to land. Or ricochet. Or crumble in mid-air. Traps would jam. Rust. Explode.

Here, show beats tell, and this might give a better idea of what Flash would actually be up against:


http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/31217878_image.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/31217879_image.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/31217880_image.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/31217882_image.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/31217883_image.jpg http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/31217884_image.jpg

"My bad luck power makes those bullets veer off or crumble to dust before they ever reach my succulent little bod!"



Classic writing at its best.

Originally posted by yaadaveyaa
can any herald lvl or below take down a really pissed off flash with full use of the speed force? i am trying to settle an argument with a friend i hope you all can help.

Speedball

Originally posted by hutchy1345
Have we ever seen a flash with full (and I mean full) use of the speed force
Wouldn't a flash like that have full kinetic energy control and the omnipresence
If so the answer is no to your question
If not the answer is still no except for possibly silver surfer, he is the only one who stands a chance

Maybe green lantern

We have seen glimpses and flashes (ha!) of a full potential Flash. For example, in Kingdom Come when he gave himself fully to speed and was said to be so fast he was everywhere at the same time (including across dimensions). Or in the JLA story about the burning Martian, where he evacuated an entire city of people when a nuclear bomb was going off by taking 500,000 people, in ones and twos, many miles away in 0.00001 of a MICROsecond. Or the Flash that beat instant transportation across the universe.

A full potential Flash is not undefeatable - it is just that there are not many people below a certain tier that can do it. Off the top of my head I cannot think of one that can do so without prep that is below a certain tier.

I would largely agree with the above, with the exception of partly mystic characters who always effectively have magic "shields" up. Black Cat, when possessed of true "bad luck" powers was one such instance.
She is perhaps the only SINGLE person below Herald tier I could see taking max potential forum Flash, unprepared, one-on-one, and winning the majority of encounters.


http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/31229606_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/31229607_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/31229608_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/31229609_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/31229610_image.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/31229611_image.jpg


Note that Black Cat's innate ability solves the problems of awareness, or lack thereof, of who she's fighting, likewise how to defend and counterattack against someone too fast to fully react to, and, ultimately, knock her opponent out of the fight, even if she can't physically so much as detect him, let alone land a punch. She could literally be lying in bed asleep and take this fight. That's almost what you need for this scenario. And that's precisely what she has.

After Black Cat, I'm of the mind that any team that has Longshot, Domino, and/or Scarlet Witch in combination with a mentalist, magician, or illusionist has perhaps a 1/3 chance of taking Flash out, regardless of what Flash brings to the table.

Tough problem, though, I must say.

full use of the speed force makes him insanely strong i cant think of one single person who could really stop him ... you could make something like a reed richards plot device if given enough time but outside of that he snaps to many necks before ne one can hurt him.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I would largely agree with the above, with the exception of partly mystic characters who always effectively have magic "shields" up. Black Cat, when possessed of true "bad luck" powers was one such instance.
She is perhaps the only SINGLE person below Herald tier I could see taking max potential forum Flash, unprepared, one-on-one, and winning the majority of encounters.


Note that Black Cat's innate ability solves the problems of awareness, or lack thereof, of who she's fighting, likewise how to defend and counterattack against someone too fast to fully react to, and, ultimately, knock her opponent out of the fight, even if she can't physically so much as detect him, let alone land a punch. She could literally be lying in bed asleep and take this fight. That's almost what you need for this scenario. And that's precisely what she has.

After Black Cat, I'm of the mind that any team that has Longshot, Domino, and/or Scarlet Witch in combination with a mentalist, magician, or illusionist has perhaps a 1/3 chance of taking Flash out, regardless of what Flash brings to the table.

Tough problem, though, I must say.

Where do your scans show her power acting against people she hasn't been able to react to?

Frankie Silvera for starters, who pulls a gun on Cat when her back is turned, says nothing, opens fire ... and feels his gun explode in his hand.

It doesn't show that her back is towards him....which again, isn't quite the same as her power working whilst she's asleep. She's in battle, knowing she's facing several foes, with weapons scattered about.

A far cry from suddenly fading from existence because she was taken out before she was even born.

Seems to me, over the years the speedforce has evolved into a full-fledged plot device, akin to power cosmic and, my fave, magic.

So, no. Forum Flash reigns ... well, except over a master wielder of power cosmic or magic.

Dracula...

He sends a few super s3xy Vampiric Romanian Women that look like this over to his place and they bite him during s3x:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It doesn't show that her back is towards him....which again, isn't quite the same as her power working whilst she's asleep. She's in battle, knowing she's facing several foes, with weapons scattered about.


Well, the Frankie Silvera scan does have Cat showing her rear to Frankie, but it's a moot point given I can show a scene where artwork AND dialogue let the reader know Cat is unaware she is in danger.

And her power still protects her:


http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/31241706_image.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/31241707_image.jpg


Originally posted by DarkSaint85


A far cry from suddenly fading from existence because she was taken out before she was even born.

What you're suggesting, however, is a far cry from the encounter the original poster of this thread proposed, or even implies he's proposing.

Standard forum rules at least have the 2 sides know they're facing each other, after all.
And once the battle's begun, if Flash makes any moves with hostile intentions toward Cat, probability says he WILL find the attack disastrously turned back on him.

OP just asked who could, based on a convo with his friend.

No implications of following KMC battle board rules. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but he doesn't say.

How would the probability reverse back on him, when she doesn't have it?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OP just asked who could, based on a convo with his friend.

No implications of following KMC battle board rules. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but he doesn't say.

How would the probability reverse back on him, when she doesn't have it?




Huh? You lost me.


I messed up in trying to quote properly in the previous post.
Harder to do this with iPhone than the laptop I used to always use.
Maybe that's throwing you off. Here, let me see if this corrects the problem:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It doesn't show that her back is towards him....which again, isn't quite the same as her power working whilst she's asleep. She's in battle, knowing she's facing several foes, with weapons scattered about.



Well, the Frankie Silvera scan does have Cat showing her rear to Frankie, but it's a moot point given I can show a scene where artwork AND dialogue let the reader know Cat is unaware she is in danger.

And her power still protects her:


http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/31241706_image.jpg http://s6d1.turboimg.net/t1/31241707_image.jpg


Originally posted by DarkSaint85


A far cry from suddenly fading from existence because she was taken out before she was even born.

What you're suggesting, however, is a far cry from the encounter the original poster of this thread proposed, or even implies he's proposing.

Standard forum rules at least have the 2 sides know they're facing each other, after all.
And once the battle's begun, if Flash makes any moves with hostile intentions toward Cat, probability says he WILL find the attack disastrously turned back on him.

My point was, that this entire debate grew out of an argument OP had with his friend.

With no stipulations on what the fight conditions (0.5km etc) were.

All we know is that one side has a bloodlusted Flash with full command of the Speed Force.

So to argue using KMC rules is....well, unless OP and his friend have it in play, its moot.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OP just asked who could, based on a convo with his friend.

No implications of following KMC battle board rules. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but he doesn't say.

How would the probability reverse back on him, when she doesn't have it?


OP can clarify what he meant in some subsequent post.
Assuming that this IS meant to be a reasonably standard KMC match, however,
the easy answer to who could beat Flash with everything mentioned in this thread so far is Marvel Comics' Black Cat, at least when she had her "true" bad luck" powers. For her power was always active, always defended her against deliberate hostile action, and essentially meant the "backfiring" of ALMOST every fight action taken against her.

Notable exceptions?

The "magics" of Scarlet Witch and Dr.Strange.
The first is arguably the most interesting, for it implies in a roundabout way that Felicia Hardy is actually a mutant, or at least very mutant-like.
Such is actually touched on in various stories, and since it at least laterally addresses your query of probability:

http://s6d4.turboimg.net/t1/31253534_image.jpg

Sorry. Meant to include THIS scan in the previous post:

http://s6d4.turboimg.net/t1/31253537_image.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My point was, that this entire debate grew out of an argument OP had with his friend.

With no stipulations on what the fight conditions (0.5km etc) were.

All we know is that one side has a bloodlusted Flash with full command of the Speed Force.

So to argue using KMC rules is....well, unless OP and his friend have it in play, its moot.

your right we werent debating with "kmc rules" but whichever way works... would the black cat even have an split second before she dies? with full use of the speed force he could b hopping aorund time and space

Originally posted by yaadaveyaa
your right we werent debating with "kmc rules" but whichever way works... would the black cat even have an split second before she dies? with full use of the speed force he could b hopping aorund time and space

Ah! Now I see.

You just wanted ways Flash could come out the ultimate winner or prove himself the most formidable character or something of that sort?

Well, if he doesn't make the mistake of actually first trying to actually FIGHT Black Cat or somebody with her specs, then, yes, I could see the "maximized" Flash being used here as able to defeat virtually anyone herald level or below.

He'd want to avoid an actual confrontation with Felicia as she was when she had her "bad luck" powers, though. That would end badly for Flash.

I was actually doing a bit more research on said "bad luck " phenomena last night. Never fully understood by Cat herself, it apparently not only affected people in direct engagements, but in time periods afterwards, without Cat's intention or even her knowledge, and could apparently worsen over time even after exposure to Cat herself had long been cut off.
Has disturbing implications for former foes, really ...

Anyway, has to be seen to be appreciated, so ...
(click on/view the following)


http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/31324534_image.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/31324535_image.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Ah! Now I see.

You just wanted ways Flash could come out the ultimate winner or prove himself the most formidable character or something of that sort?

Well, if he doesn't make the mistake of actually first trying to actually FIGHT Black Cat or somebody with her specs, then, yes, I could see the "maximized" Flash being used here as able to defeat virtually anyone herald level or below.

He'd want to avoid an actual confrontation with Felicia as she was when she had her "bad luck" powers, though. That would end badly for Flash.

I was actually doing a bit more research on said "bad luck " phenomena last night. Never fully understood by Cat herself, it apparently not only affected people in direct engagements, but in time periods afterwards, without Cat's intention or even her knowledge, and could apparently worsen over time even after exposure to Cat herself had long been cut off.
Has disturbing implications for former foes, really ...

Anyway, has to be seen to be appreciated, so ...
(click on/view the following)


http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/31324534_image.jpg http://s6d5.turboimg.net/t1/31324535_image.jpg

yeah something along those lines ... a friend is a big fan of flash and i told him there were a lot more powerful that lead to well if he had full control of the speed force and really wanted to kill everyone who could stop him... and i couldnt find to many that really made sense, i did say prof x but if he doesnt know the fight is going on hes dead before he gets to crebro

he wouldn't need cerebro. but yeah he would have to know there is a fight

Originally posted by staxamillion
he wouldn't need cerebro. but yeah he would have to know there is a fight

he would in order to find him no? if he has full use of the spped forece he can hop time and b anywhere ... i would think he would need cerebro in order just ot find him let alone stop him

i don't think Charles could stop him period. im just saying he wouldn't need cerebro necessarily to find him if he knew he was looking.

Originally posted by staxamillion
i don't think Charles could stop him period. im just saying he wouldn't need cerebro necessarily to find him if he knew he was looking.

ok i see what you're saying. i dont think so either but i keep trying to think of someone who can slow him down.

It can be done, but would need prep. Mr Fantastic could do it.