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Make your case.

I don't see what's wrong with it unless it contradicts the established logic of the source material.

Like with every other source, be that canon or otherwise, the only thing that matters is whether it supports your case or not. If it does then it's legit, if it doesn't then f-uck it.

That's how SW debating works anyway.

Unless there's a drastic change of events that would've affected power growth, skill, battle-mentality, etc. it's the same characters, with same power levels, just doing different things. I think it's fair to consider it a secondary source of some kind.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Like with every other source, be that canon or otherwise, the only thing that matters is whether it supports your case or not. If it does then it's legit, if it doesn't then f-uck it.

That's how SW debating works anyway.

Salty *****.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Salty *****.

Did I hit a nerv? Anyhow it wasn't actually a jab at you, but on SW debating in general. DS endings aren't the only thing that people don't want to accept. Author opinions, blurbs, Lucas quotes, novels, game versions (PC, Wii), Gillard ranking, and even actual Legend canon accolades can't be safe from agenda pushings here on KMC.

It's true lol.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Did I hit a nerv? Anyhow it wasn't actually a jab at you, but on SW debating in general. DS endings aren't the only thing that people don't want to accept. Author opinions, blurbs, Lucas quotes, novels, game versions (PC, Wii), Gillard ranking, and even actual Legend canon accolades can't be safe from agenda pushings here on KMC.

It's a friendly jab, lol.

You're actually right.

Well in regards to TFU, the novels have the alternate endings as visions Galen has. I.e. Possible alternate futures.

I really don't see why he'd suddenly grow less powerful or something that would render it unusable.

Only when they support my agenda.

It isn't canon, so no.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Only when they support my agenda.

Yes.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
It isn't canon, so no.



Heck, the DS ending of TFU has Starkiller killing Obi-Wan's ghost.

Might as well rename this thread "**** Syndicate and **** Galen"

Time limit's expired.

All in all Beni this was a very Nova/Ant-esque thread for you to make, what with making a topic in just the right way to bait the forum into establishing some consensus/form norm that despite not being an actual valid canon/continuity rule, you could still try and enforce basically as such to shut up the people who disagree with you...

You're learning well

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Time limit's expired.

You could make a new one.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
All in all Beni this was a very Nova/Ant-esque thread for you to make, what with making a topic in just the right way to bait the forum into establishing some consensus/form norm that despite not being an actual valid canon/continuity rule, you could still try and enforce basically as such to shut up the people who disagree with you...

You're learning well I don't know what you mean.

You're obviously banking off of the PT brigade wanting Sidious to be able to blitz Galen tier combatants (since Sidious is the most wanked character on this forum), people who get pissed off by Syn's "Galen was matching Sheev in the Force" bullshit wanting an argument against both Galen and Syndicate, Neph the TOR brigade wanting HOT to be able to mind**** Braga and ragdoll weakened Vitiate.

And you're trying to use these wants to establish a consensus so you can throw it in Syndicate's face and act like the non-canon endings are accurate depictions because the rest of the forum agrees with you on it, despite it not being an actual established rule of continuity, and make Syndicate's position look weaker for arguing against something the rest of the forum disagrees with him on.

Kinda reminds me of when Sel made that topic about cut-content then paraded it around as if it was a concrete establishment that KOTOR II cut content was actually a legitimate part of the legends continuity.

Actually just thought I'd make a thread.

Good plan tho.

EDIT: Oh my, its expanded, this be some Syn-tier tin foil hat shit lmao.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Kinda reminds me of when Sel made that topic about cut-content then paraded it around as if it was a concrete establishment that KOTOR II cut content was actually a legitimate part of the legends continuity.

And just like then, you can't come up with a single argument to refute anyone who disagrees with you

What you mean aside from the fact that the only evidence you used was based around old holocron continuity guidelines saying cut content from George Lucas and his works was legit, and Disney Canon guidelines about cut content from the Storyboard being legit?

Forgive me for my skepticism, but I don't believe the validity of cut content from Lucas/the Disney Storyboard, ie. the people who ultimately lead and have the final say over the respective continuities, trickles down to the cut content of KOTOR II writers/developers who don't have remotely that same standing in the hierarchy.

Yeah I consider them canon. Don't see a reason why they wouldn't be, considering it's the same character in similar scenarios just making a different decision.

yes

TFU's DS ending, where Sidious is stomping Starkiller with TK should be treat serious, like 100% vs 100%.
In LS ending, Galen gave more, then he had in regular fight. He sacrificed himself etc etc. And Sidious still won. That guy shouldn't be consider as Sidious near-equal in any case.

Well, intentions aside, it's clear that the majority of users here support this.

Majority thought the world was flat, who cares?

Non canon is non canon.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Majority thought the world was flat, who cares?

Non canon is non canon.

1. And that was the accepted norm back then, lol. Now the majority believes otherwise, and that's what's accepted now.

It's a joke, anyway. Calm down.

2. Yep, and by definition, it means that it doesn't happen. Doesn't mean it can't happen.

1. Exactly my point.
2. I see no reason to take anything that happened in non-canon material into consideration at all, since, it's, you know, non-canon --- thus --- doesn't have follow established canon in any regard.

Nice edit, and I am calm.

Well, you know my stance. It comes from the same source material as the LS ending. I don't see why the creators would suddenly throw it all out because it's an alternate ending. It's the exact same characters, the exact same setting, the exact same power levels, etc. It doesn't have to follow canon, but you'd assume it follows what the rest of the TFU game follows.

Again, difference in opinion. Not much we can do it about it.

I can get behind the idea, but essentially, it's going to be up to the discretion of who you're debating whether or not they accept it, since there isn't any canonical ruling on the matter either way

Well it does have a canonical ruling...

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I can get behind the idea, but essentially, it's going to be up to the discretion of who you're debating whether or not they accept it, since there isn't any canonical ruling on the matter either way

There is a canonical ruling - they're not canon. But whether they're canon and whether they're valid or not are entirely different things.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, you know my stance. It comes from the same source material as the LS ending. I don't see why the creators would suddenly throw it all out because it's an alternate ending. It's the exact same characters, the exact same setting, the exact same power levels, etc. It doesn't have to follow canon, but you'd assume it follows what the rest of the TFU game follows.

Again, difference in opinion. Not much we can do it about it.

I don't necessarily agree that different endings still produce same power levels.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There is a canonical ruling - they're not canon. But whether they're canon and whether they're valid or not are entirely different things.

Obviously. I meant a canotical statement on whether the alternate ending power levels are tantamount to the canon ending ones.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
I don't necessarily agree that different endings still produce same power levels.

Depends. For instance, dark side Exile in KotOR II is definitely more powerful than her light side incarnation. But Galen Marek's different versions? I don't see how. You literally have no difference in the story except the very final battle.

Well it seems to boil down to the fundamental issue as to whether non-canon/alternate endings adhere to established framework of the characters and settings involved. And I agree with Nova on this that as a role playing experience there is no reason for them not to in most instances, and in most instances, it seems kinda asinine to write them off.

For example in the non-canon dark side path the Exile attacks Vrook and after healing himself he stuns the Exile with TK and flees. I see no reason to dismiss this as a feat. Kavar also stuns a group of soldiers and the Exile in the dark side path as well. There is also a seem in which Kreia impales herself to KO Meetra. All these feats provide valuable insights into the abilities of the characters involved, and it doesn't seem sensible to dismiss them, simply because they are non-canon.

On the other though you could argue that given alternative endings as non-canon have no obligation to follow the framework of the characters and setting, we have no guarantee that they do, and therefore can't be relied upon for evidence. And there is basis for this in for example the Dark Side DLC packs for TFU where Starkiller does things like kill Kenobi's ghost by throwing him into the Falcon's sunlight engines... which is obviously them taking liberties with the universe. On the other hand something like Sidious one shotting Vader is more believable, but still unprecedented, should that be taken as accurate too?

Then there is also what if stuff like the Head-to-Heads and that What If Mortis scenario involving Anakin and the Son. The second has actually been used as legitimate evidence but it's arguably no less valid than the Head to Heads. Should these be considered valid as well and if not what distinguishes them from the aforementioned stuff?

I think there is a difference, but a clear distinction would have to be identified between these different alternate stories. Thoughts?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well it seems to boil down to the fundamental issue as to whether non-canon/alternate endings adhere to established framework of the characters and settings involved. And I agree with Nova on this that as a role playing experience there is no reason for them not to in most instances, and in most instances, it seems kinda asinine to write them off.

For example in the non-canon dark side path the Exile attacks Vrook and after healing himself he stuns the Exile with TK and flees. I see no reason to dismiss this as a feat. Kavar also stuns a group of soldiers and the Exile in the dark side path as well. There is also a seem in which Kreia impales herself to KO Meetra. All these feats provide valuable insights into the abilities of the characters involved, and it doesn't seem sensible to dismiss them, simply because they are non-canon.

Agreed.



Neither of these is accurate, and could be dismissed given that they do not align with the power levels of the canon stuff. However, if you dismiss all of them as inaccurate simply because one or two are you are committing a fallacy and your argument is rendered invalid.



I haven't seen too many Head-to-Head articles, but if there is evidence to the contrary of what they say found in the mythos, I guess they could be dismissed, too.

The Mortis story is perfectly valid, however, as there exists a 100% canon quote claiming Knightfall Vader is more powerful than either Yoda or Sidious.

So you argue that inconsistencies would be overruled by canon evidence?

What does Sidious one shotting Vader contradict however?

And where is it stated that Knightfall Vader > Yoda & Sids?

@Beni - Actually, Marek kills Ben Kenobi physically by hurling him into the Falcon's engines. He kills the Ghost with Lightning.

Ah fair enough.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well in regards to TFU, the novels have the alternate endings as visions Galen has. I.e. Possible alternate futures.



Also wasn't killing Ben's ghost part of the gameplay? Or was it a proper scene? Anyone got it to post?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So you argue that inconsistencies would be overruled by canon evidence?

Yes.



In RotJ, Vader manages to hurl Sidious down the shaft. In the game, he's instantly on his knees.



Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.

-Databank (old): Darth Vader

As I said before, we can't definitively prove it either way, so it's only a matter of perspective.

Originally posted by Azronger




Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.

-Databank (old): Darth Vader


Palpatine calls Machine Vader's powers "unparalleled" in Canon as well. It doesn't make him more powerful than Sheev. It's just means he has certain abilities hat no one can match.

@Thor - It's part of a QTE.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Palpatine calls Machine Vader's powers "unparalleled" in Canon as well. It doesn't make him more powerful than Sheev. It's just means he has certain abilities hat no one can match.

Except that the quote I posted is from an omniscient perspective, so I'd say it counts.