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We know he is a master of all the forms but is this really enough to judge his skill? After all many fodder pt era Jedi were called masters in lightsaber combat yet they failed against technically inferior opponents e.g cin drallig.

What specific sources cite Sidious as a masterful swordsman and not just one who is dependent on his augmentation abilities to defeat opponents?

very.

Nick Gillard said he's a master of every known weapon and style in the galaxy.

Otherwise he knows the rarest martial arts in the galaxy and imparted that knowledge on Maul, has mastered every lightsaber style and probably every weapon type.

Yet he also didn't start his training till quite late (certainly by jedi standards anyway)
How did he find the time to train in the force to such a level of mastery, lightsaber combat to such a high degree AND also become a hugely prominent politician so therefore going through a further education system and making a name for himself on naboo and eventually the entire galaxy!
IMPOSSIBLE I SAY!!

He's at the very least an equal of Mace Windu in technical skill, this is fact, although he could be argued as superior. Some sources portray him as an equal of Yoda, but some say he's inferior.

Regardless, he's in the top 4 lightsaber combatants ever, out of all eras. This is pretty much indisputable.

Moreso than anyone else, at least as of RotS.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Moreso than anyone else, at least as of RotS.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Moreso than anyone else, at least as of RotS.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Moreso than anyone else, at least as of RotS.

Is he more technically skilled than Dooku? In Makashi? How do we know his top 4 duelist ranking isn't due to his extreme augmentation abilities?

Originally posted by Kurk
Is he more technically skilled than Dooku?

Yes.



No.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan


Who else?

Yoda, obviously.

Yoda isn't stated to be a master of numerous forbidden martial arts, nor Jar'kai(?) and doesn't really use a seamless mix of forms like Sidious does, which is probably the true hallmark of somebody who's mastered everything. In the end, Yoda's still more of a specialist than a generalist like Sidious.

Are we talking about quantity here, because I don't think so? And in quality Yoda has him beaten. Also weren't you the one who said one can't even comprehend Yoda's form without mastering every lightsaber form? Or at least something along that line, probably misquoted it horrendously.

Technical skill does come down to quantity, tbh. At least how it's conventionally measured here. We tend to treat it as "amount of forms mastered".

And yeah, Insider #62: Fightsaber claims that only once you've analyzed all the forms can you understand Yoda's fighting technique. That said, it's still distinctly Ataru.

SunRazer is running for spokesman of the hypocrites.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yoda, obviously.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Technical skill does come down to quantity, tbh. At least how it's conventionally measured here. We tend to treat it as "amount of forms mastered".

Lmao, we never f-ucking did that. Otherwise Kenobi and Mace would be more skilled than Dooku which you vehemently argued agaist shitloads of times.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Lmao, we never f-ucking did that. Otherwise Kenobi and Mace would be more skilled than Dooku which you vehemently argued agaist shitloads of times.

Based on what?

I used "mastered" in a loose sense, btw. I just mean practiced, though obviously a master of all forms > a novice in all forms, etc.

Based on quantity f-uckface

Prove that Obi-Wan and Mace know more forms, you blistered donkey.

Dooku: 1, Kenobi: 4, Mace: 7

There, done.

Dooku knows all seven forms plus Lus-ma, lol. As well as having mastered numerous untraditional ones per Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force.

You said mastered, not knows, c-unt

Besides, Mace mastered every fighting technique of the Jedi Order

I mean he taught Grievous so you can't really say he doesn't...

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You said mastered, not knows, c-unt

Originally posted by SunRazer
Prove that Obi-Wan and Mace know more forms, you blistered donkey.

lol

Besides, he's likely to have mastered most of them, anyway. That's how he's able to instruct Grievous in all forms. Isn't there a quote saying that Grievous mastered all forms? If so, then Dooku's almost certainly a master of all forms.



Right, and Dooku has mastered presumably most of them (or is at least highly familiar with just about all of them) as well as numerous untraditional fighting forms from across the galaxy.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol

Besides, he's likely to have mastered most of them, anyway. That's how he's able to instruct Grievous in all forms. Isn't there a quote saying that Grievous mastered all forms? If so, then Dooku's almost certainly a master of all forms.



Right, and Dooku has mastered presumably most of them (or is at least highly familiar with just about all of them) as well as numerous untraditional fighting forms from across the galaxy.

So much speculation, so little proof

Originally posted by Kurk
I mean he taught Grievous so you can't really say he doesn't...

I can and I did. What you gona do?

Sunrazers hypocrisy is so utterly blatant.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So much speculation, so little proof

I cited the sourcebook and he teaches Grievous in all forms. Besides, you don't think that in seventy years he'd get to at least know the vast majority of forms, if not mastering them?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sunrazers hypocrisy is so utterly blatant.

**** off, you fat sack of yankee dankee doodle shite.

Originally posted by SunRazer
**** off, you fat sack of yankee dankee doodle shite. i might sig this

Originally posted by SunRazer
I cited the sourcebook and he teaches Grievous in all forms. Besides, you don't think that in seventy years he'd get to at least know the vast majority of forms, if not mastering them?



**** off, you fat sack of yankee dankee doodle shite. You can't face the truth can you.

Originally posted by ILS
i might sig this Easily amused, eh ?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I cited the sourcebook and he teaches Grievous in all forms. Besides, you don't think that in seventy years he'd get to at least know the vast majority of forms, if not mastering them?

Teaching Grievous doesn't mean he mastered them. Anyhow this is all f-ucking useless. Quality > quantity. In which case Yoda > Sidious.

It is if Grievous masters them too.

And quality isn't what we refer to when we say technical skill. People say Cin Drallig is more technically skilled than Anakin but he gets curbed in actual combat.

Sunrazer you don't get to decide what others mean when they use words. Are you daft ?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It is if Grievous masters them too.

No

Originally posted by SunRazer
And quality isn't what we refer to when we say technical skill. People say Cin Drallig is more technically skilled than Anakin but he gets curbed in actual combat.

Nobody says that, you just make this shit up on the spot.

wtf, quantity in knowledge isn't < quality in knowledge

lol That's why ILS in this very thread talks about the amount of martial knowledge they possess instead of their skill feats and accolades. Sheer skill and technical skill are different things. Everyone else is being ambiguous, but NewGuy and Ant have in the past referred to that, so I assume that's what they're referring to here, and that's why I quoted NewGuy.

Just because you're misinterpreting what other people mean doesn't mean that other people are making it up on the spot, you first-class c-unt

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol That's why ILS in this very thread talks about the amount of martial knowledge they possess instead of their skill feats and accolades. Sheer skill and technical skill are different things. Everyone else is being ambiguous, but NewGuy and Ant have in the past referred to that, so I assume that's what they're referring to here, and that's why I quoted NewGuy.

Just because you're misinterpreting what other people mean doesn't mean that other people are making it up on the spot, you first-class c-unt

Don't give a shit what they talk about. Starkiller mastered more forms than Anakin, I suppose you think he'd win then?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
wtf, quantity in knowledge isn't < quality in knowledge

Ofc a Revan wanker would say that.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Don't give a shit what they talk about. Starkiller mastered more forms than Anakin, I suppose you think he'd win then?

Again, comprehend:



Drallig was more technically skilled than Anakin in that he knew more forms, but when it came to sheer skill, as in natural proficiency with a blade, Anakin was flat-out better.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Drallig was more technically skilled than Anakin in that he knew more forms, but when it came to sheer skill, as in natural proficiency with a blade, Anakin was flat-out better.

And that's why he won and that's why it's more important. Duh.

Of course it's more important in a fight. But this thread is about technical skill. So I answer in relevance to the former, not the latter.

-

Originally posted by Beniboybling
very.

Boo boo's

1. We don't know the exact reason why Anakin beat Cin; it could've been augmentation related; similar to how Dooku lost, or Anakin basically blitzed him through superior strength and speed. If not that, then Anakin won through superior lightsaber skill.

Lightsaber skill to me means anything not related to force augmentation that a user relies on to defeat an opponent in battle. This could be knowledge on the forms, in-depth mastery of one or more forms, knowledge of weaknesses, etc.

E.g Vitiate doesn't have shit when it comes to saberskill, but he has incredible augmentation to make up for it.

Pre-Vizsla could be an extremely skilled-duelist (not saying he is), but could easily be defeated by padawans due to his lack of augmentation.


As for natural proficiency with a blade...meh....I say that falls into the force power-level category.

And generally speaking I agree quality > quantity

That's why Dooku himself said something along the lines of a jedi who focuses on all the forms will never be as effective in combat as one who dedicates all their time to solely one.

Originally posted by Kurk
And generally speaking I agree quality > quantity

That's why Dooku himself said something along the lines of a jedi who focuses on all the forms will never be as effective in combat as one who dedicates all their time to solely one. Which is why Sidious focused on using what most duelists would consider Juyo ("a Sith style".

And never misused his power. You know; until the Battle of Pinnacle Base.

this thread is cancer

Originally posted by JKBart
this thread is cancer Ironically, cancer's the 4chan term for whatever kills a thread

this thread is cancer

In the Senate room fight Yoda clearly had the upper hand on Sidious in their lightsaber duel BUT the terrain favoured Yoda heavily as there was no room for Sidious to maneuver trapped in the Chancellors podium. A fight on neutral ground would be a different story I think, as seen when Sidious fought the Zabrak brothers he's almost unstoppable when he's got some room to maneuver.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Ironically, cancer's the 4chan term for whatever kills a thread

my point exactly

this thread got dead at the moment of its inception

Originally posted by JKBart
my point exactly

this thread got dead at the moment of its inception Thank you Bart I take that as a compliment

More skilled than anyone in the mythos outside of Yoda and GM Luke.

Originally posted by Kurk
I mean he taught Grievous so you can't really say he doesn't...

kenobi taught anakin so obviously he mastered djem so
qui gon taught kenobi so he mastered soresu
maul taught oppress so he mastered djem so
bane taught zannah so he mastered soresu

Originally posted by Trocity
More skilled than anyone in the mythos outside of Yoda and GM Luke.
bingo

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

qui gon taught kenobi so he mastered soresu


not true. Kenobi learned Ataru from QGJ, Obi mastered Soresu during the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, comprehend:

Drallig was more technically skilled than Anakin in that he knew more forms, but when it came to sheer skill, as in natural proficiency with a blade, Anakin was flat-out better. Technical skill =/= technical mastery and Dooku explictly states that mastering all seven styles is a waste of time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Technical skill =/= technical mastery and Dooku explictly states that mastering all seven styles is a waste of time.

Dooku also explicitly states acrobatics are a waste of time and that a saber should never leave your hand. Guess what he does in his first appearance? A giant leap-flip and a Saber Throw.

Cool? I wasn't referring to that.

I know. My point is that just because Dooku says something is pointless, a waste in time, or disdainful, doesn't mean he doesn't do it himself. He could well be saying those things from experience.

Quantity has a quality all of itself, especially when we're talking about lightsaber forms which have rock-paper-scissors like attributes of each having different strengths and weaknesses.

If we compare two duelists and one has mastered all forms to a decent degree and the other has mastered one to the max, the former has an undeniable edge in terms of versatility. The latter will have the advantage in his chosen forms strengths but the first guy can at any moment switch to the defense of Soresu, the precision of Makashi, the aggression of Juyo etc etc.

But would he win?

I dunno. I'd say they're about equal in terms of importance and effectiveness. Exceptional duelists like Dooku and Windu can use all forms yet they prefer to stick with their chosen specialities seemingly exclusively in actual duels. There must be a reason for that. In the end I guess it depends on what you value and more importantly, who the writer is.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I know. My point is that just because Dooku says something is pointless, a waste in time, or disdainful, doesn't mean he doesn't do it himself. He could well be saying those things from experience. I'll have to look at the quote again but as I remember it he explicitly said that it is better to concentrate on the study of one form than multiple, which would contradict the idea that he mastered all seven.

Regardless its a meaningless distinction if we agree that Dooku incorporates none of the other styles in his application of Makashi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Quantity has a quality all of itself, especially when we're talking about lightsaber forms which have rock-paper-scissors like attributes of each having different strengths and weaknesses.

If we compare two duelists and one has mastered all forms to a decent degree and the other has mastered one to the max, the former has an undeniable edge in terms of versatility. The latter will have the advantage in his chosen forms strengths but the first guy can at any moment switch to the defense of Soresu, the precision of Makashi, the aggression of Juyo etc etc.

But would he win?

I dunno. I'd say they're about equal in terms of importance and effectiveness. Exceptional duelists like Dooku and Windu can use all forms yet they prefer to stick with their chosen specialities seemingly exclusively in actual duels. There must be a reason for that. In the end I guess it depends on what you value and more importantly, who the writer is. The latter would lose every time, being versatile is useless if lack the sufficient skill to compete.

Well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

A doctor can specialize in 4 specialties but will never be as knowledgeable in one particular area as someone who put all their energy into one. So yes, mastering all the forms makes you versatile and adaptive, but you'll lose in a one-on-one saber fight with Dooku who mastered the style dedicated to sword-fighting.

Meanwhile Dooku will be more likely to lose against blaster-wielding opponents without Soresu, Djem So, Ataru, etc. (regardless he knew enough to fight blaster wielding opponents despite Makashi's weakness but that's besides the point).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well that's just, like, your opinion, man. Which is always correct, yeah.

Originally posted by JKBart
this thread is cancer Blame sunrazer. He is the absolute poster boy for double standards.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'll have to look at the quote again but as I remember it he explicitly said that it is better to concentrate on the study of one form than multiple, which would contradict the idea that he mastered all seven.

Regardless its a meaningless distinction if we agree that Dooku incorporates none of the other styles in his application of Makashi.

Which is true, hence why Padawans are told to master at least 1 of the lightsaber forms and are just taught the rest of them, aside from Form 1 since they master that as Younglings, but that's a good jump off since it's a good all around form which would help supplement the others.

Mastery of multiple forms doesn't mean sh1t when dealing with high tier duelists; they are far above the average mastery level.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Mastery of multiple forms doesn't mean sh1t when dealing with high tier duelists; they are far above the average mastery level.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is always correct, yeah.
Is that why greater duelists than Dooku have mastered and make use of multiple forms in lightsaber combat?

I think its fundamentally flawed to assume the master-of-all would have a lesser degree of skill than the master-of-one. Surely you'd need to put in as much or more time, effort and talent mastering all the forms as you would in mastering all aspects of just one.

Which then the only reason someone would beat the jack of all trades who mastered all the forms to a similar degree of the single user, would be other factors such as strength and speed, the majority factor being moreso than the former to hammer through defense.

Makes sense.

@Ares Originally posted by Nephthys
I think its fundamentally flawed to assume the master-of-all would have a lesser degree of skill than the master-of-one. Surely you'd need to put in as much or more time, effort and talent mastering all the forms as you would in mastering all aspects of just one. That's not what I said lol. But the fact is that if we have a 9 in one style go up against a 6 in seven, the latter will lose every time, because their skill level is insufficient, that's just simple logic.

On the other hand if that 6 were to become a 10, in all seven styles, then of course they would beat the specialist, but that is a lot harder to achieve, hence why specialising is the smarter move.

Its no different from how you'd approach a skill tree in an RPG, if you spread your skills out between multiple trees yes you'll be versatile, but won't excel in anything, and get trashed by someone who does.

Insanely technically skilled. In fact, one of the most technically skilled duelists ever.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'll have to look at the quote again but as I remember it he explicitly said that it is better to concentrate on the study of one form than multiple, which would contradict the idea that he mastered all seven.

Regardless its a meaningless distinction if we agree that Dooku incorporates none of the other styles in his application of Makashi.

He says acrobatics are a waste of energy - he still does them.

And he might not use other forms, but he still knows/mastered them, which still counts as technical knowledge/skill. Does Mace incorporate other forms?

Originally posted by SunRazer
but he still knows/mastered them

nah

We know he mastered some, lol.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
nah Genius duelist and Force savant both.

Then provide a legit quote phag, and not some shit speculation. So far I only ever seen him being confirmed to master Makashi.

Thought you were referring to Sidious. Sry.

And yeah; Dooku's Form of choice is Makashi, and he was never confirmed as having mastered anything else.

Originally posted by SunRazer
We know he mastered some, lol.

Dabbler in all, master of one.

Sunrazer has been run off.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Dabbler in all, master of one.

That's fair, but only refers to the traditional seven.

It's stated that he mastered numerous untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

As soon as the lights go out the cockroach returns.

Originally posted by SunRazer
**** off, you fat sack of yankee dankee doodle shite.

Originally posted by SunRazer
try saying something semi-intelligent kiddo

Something you aspire to do, yeah.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Something you aspire to do, yeah. I don't sink down to the level of throwing around crude insults that only a ten-year-old would use to get by.

Too bad Quanchi only deserves Hell's Kitchen quotations. You don't see me throwing those around at other people. That's because they're worth legitimate responses.

Originally posted by SunRazer
This is what you're reduced to these days.

#youvelost

It's what I'm reduced to when I talk to you, yeah, because you don't deserve anything else.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's what I'm reduced to when I talk to you, yeah, because you don't deserve anything else. You are hurt this much is obvious but I challenged you to an official debate. You turned tail and ran.

Actually, you ran, by not accepting my terms. You're just in denial right now.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually, you ran, by not accepting my terms. You're just in denial right now.

you're giving me ant vibes rn ngl.

tbh

Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually, you ran, by not accepting my terms. You're just in denial right now. Sunrazer just face it. You backed down to me. How does that feel ? Does a lack of spine embarrass you ?

@NewGuy - I haven't got to the narcissistic stage quite yet.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sunrazer just face it. You backed down to me. How does that feel ? Does a lack of spine embarrass you ?

Again, in denial. You can't even accept it. Keep proving my point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, in denial. You can't even accept it. Keep proving my point. A delusional mind such as yours does this as a means to cope with life without a spine. Sad.

Still in denial. You're going to have to get therapy at some point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Still in denial. You're going to have to get therapy at some point. You need to get your man card by facing me. This whole lifestyle of applying double standards on every single debate needs to stop. I'm here to destroy you.

Then why didn't you accept the terms? Because you were too scared. Admit it.

Has your debate with the other dude even started yet?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Then why didn't you accept the terms? Because you were too scared. Admit it.

Has your debate with the other dude even started yet? Firstly what debate are you referring to ? Quit being vague be specific, woman.

Tondemonai.

Did you leave to change your tampon ? Respond you cowardly vixen.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Tondemonai. What about him ?

Not everybody responds in a few minutes and enslaves themselves to these back-and-forths like you, lol. Keep persisting, and I'll get one of your tampons and throw it up your ass sideways.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What about him ?

Are you incapable of reading or did your memory bootup just fail? You had a debate with him - did that even start?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Are you incapable of reading or did your memory bootup just fail? You had a debate with him - did that even start? He is a busy lad and this is the pm I got.


It's not gonna happen, I start school in two days and tomorrow I'm going on a snowshoeing trip. Just wanted you to know we're gonna have to try for another time if we really want to do this
__________________



But I'll tell you what I'll do just for you. He said he will be free for the summer but if you'd like to accept this honor we can begin now.

You represent the Ot trilogy vs. my Trek Kelvin reboot trilogy. I've been trying to have this debate forever. Ellimist apparently died or something and Tondemonai is busy and has school once again.


I will wait for him unless one of you pansies accepts in the meantime. I do intend on crushing this laughable empire and you at the helm of Palpatine's laughably overrated forces being annihilated by me at the hands of Khan and Starfleet would be far more satisfying.

What do you say ?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not everybody responds in a few minutes and enslaves themselves to these back-and-forths like you, lol. Keep persisting, and I'll get one of your tampons and throw it up your ass sideways. Just shut up and accept. Man the **** up. I tire of your pitiful excuses as to avoid direct conflict with me. Put up or shut up.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He is a busy lad and this is the pm I got.


It's not gonna happen, I start school in two days and tomorrow I'm going on a snowshoeing trip. Just wanted you to know we're gonna have to try for another time if we really want to do this
__________________



But I'll tell you what I'll do just for you. He said he will be free for the summer but if you'd like to accept this honor we can begin now.

You represent the Ot trilogy vs. my Trek Kelvin reboot trilogy. I've been trying to have this debate forever. Ellimist apparently died or something and Tondemonai is busy and has school once again.


I will wait for him unless one of you pansies accepts in the meantime. I do intend on crushing this laughable empire and you at the helm of Palpatine's laughably overrated forces being annihilated by me at the hands of Khan and Starfleet would be far more satisfying.

What do you say ?

And those don't count as "excuses"? lmfao

I don't know anything about Star Trek, so I won't be debating that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just shut up and accept. Man the **** up. I tire of your pitiful excuses as to avoid direct conflict with me. Put up or shut up.

Coming from the person in denial who can't even accept that he ran away last time, this is pretty rich, lol. Your attempts at getting under my skin are getting shittier by the post. Join me in the real world and acknowledge the fact that you were the one who ran away last time.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And those don't count as "excuses"? lmfao

I don't know anything about Star Trek, so I won't be debating that.



Coming from the person in denial who can't even accept that he ran away last time, this is pretty rich, lol. Your attempts at getting under my skin are getting shittier by the post. Join me in the real world and acknowledge the fact that you were the one who ran away last time. Everyone who has accepted this de ate with me is very busy. Tondemonai will see this through but Ellimist never came through on any of his promises for any judged debate.

Hahahaha, I knew you wouldn't accept. It's three films that could take you an afternoon to watch. I'm not asking for much at all and as usual the Sheevites cowardice rears its ugly head.


What did I run from ? Do you speak English ? You say Tondemonai and I tell you what happened and give you the chance to face me. You cry ignorance and try to scurry away which is your thing.

1. Right, and I don't see you throwing a tirade at them for their "pitiful excuses". Clearly I've gotten under your skin one way or another.

2. Right, so you're trying to target someone who's never seen ST before so you can win a debate and gloat? How about debating something about your pet boy Maul?

3. You ran away from my offer to debate last time. You're now in denial about it and you're putting up a show to try and make it easier on yourself.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Right, and I don't see you throwing a tirade at them for their "pitiful excuses". Clearly I've gotten under your skin one way or another.

2. Right, so you're trying to target someone who's never seen ST before so you can win a debate and gloat? How about debating something about your pet boy Maul?

3. You ran away from my offer to debate last time. You're now in denial about it and you're putting up a show to try and make it easier on yourself.

1. Tondemonai is busy and I believe him. Ellimist lost his way against ant. He believes he is superior in his own mind but never has any follow through. Weak.

2. I'm sure you'll believe Star Wars stomps but as usual just as with Nai when push comes to shove the excuses come out. Maul vs who ?

3. Which offer and which debate ? You just keep making vague responses to me posturing. Be specific.

1. You don't think Ellimist is busy? And I haven't been posting too much recently, either. I'm only going to get busier in the coming weeks.

2. I like how you presume my stance even though I know nothing about Trek. Where do you rank Maul?

3. The one that you were accusing me of running away from, lmfao.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. You don't think Ellimist is busy?

2. I like how you presume my stance even though I know nothing about Trek. Where do you rank Maul?

3. The one that you were accusing me of running away from, lmfao. 1. As busy as he lets on, no. He swore up and down he would have a response up months ago. He also posted all over the forum and nothing came. People shouldn't make promises they can't keep. What's worse is he kept doing it.

2. I read your fanboyish responses when it comes to Sheev so I know damn well the conclusion you'd reach. What kind of silly question is that. What debate do you want to have with regards to Maul. Who do you want to pit against him ?

3. Asking you to debate three films vs another three films is an easy debate for you. You're familiar with the Ot films so all you'd need to do is watch three Trek films and prepare for the debate.

1. Then I won't make any promises because I don't know if I can keep it. I'll be getting busier in the future - not that I've posted much recently anyway.

2. You mean the thread where you got wrecked and ended up trying to deny source material?

As for Maul, I'd pit Dooku against him, but that's probably a bit cliche. Is this Canon only?

3. That wasn't it, but whatever. Watching films once isn't going to make it an "easy debate" at all, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Then I won't make this promise because I don't know if I can keep it. I'll be getting busier in the future - not that I've posted much recently anyway.

2. You mean the thread where you got wrecked and ended up trying to deny source material?

As for Maul, I'd pit Dooku against him, but that's probably a bit cliche. Is this Canon only?

3. That wasn't it, but whatever. Watching films once isn't going to make it an "easy debate" at all, lol. 1. Sigh

2. Your interpretation and double standards aren't facts just your perception.

I don't do legends. Ever.

3. There isn't as much action in Trek as there is in Wars typically. Three movies isn't asking a lot of someone to familiarize yourself with.

2. Interpretation? I literally quoted the sources word-for-word and you claimed that sourcebooks are irrelevant, and we only take what's on-screen (which, of course, is also subject to interpretation).

Keeping in mind that if you have that sort of attitude, then I won't be debating you.

3. Right, but the technicalities in all of Trek is a different story.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Interpretation? I literally quoted the sources word-for-word and you claimed that sourcebooks are irrelevant, and we only take what's on-screen (which, of course, is also subject to interpretation).

Keeping in mind that if you have that sort of attitude, then I won't be debating you.

3. Right, but the technicalities in all of Trek is a different story. 1. Hyperbole isn't a fact. You have to know when to apply common sense. Vague statements from source books don't override facts from the films.

I knew you wouldn't either way.

3. Another excuse. I've heard them before from Ot fans. When I come knocking at their door most excuse themselves from the debate.

There's no hyperbole or vagueness in "Palpatine was barely tested" or "Palpatine never wavered from his position of superiority". Common sense would be to accept them, not nitpick minor details in the film and try to twist them to support your stance.

I'm not an "OT fan", lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's no hyperbole or vagueness in "Palpatine was barely tested" or "Palpatine never wavered from his position of superiority". Common sense would be to accept them, not nitpick minor details in the film and try to twist them to support your stance.

I'm not an "OT fan", lol. He was tested by Yoda and beaten by Windu.

You're a Sheev fan.

1. Those are quotes referring to Sidious vs Maul and Opress.

2. Which has nothing to do with Star Wars vs Star Trek, which is going to be dictated by the ships and what not, rather than one Force user, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Those are quotes referring to Sidious vs Maul and Opress.

2. Which has nothing to do with Star Wars vs Star Trek, which is going to be dictated by the ships and what not, rather than one Force user, lol.

1. I have agreed he was superior to Maul in the fight so what's your gripe ?

2. Star Wars takes place in a time of war. Star Trek does not. Have you no faith in the empire Sheev has put together ? Are you afraid of Khan ?

Not at all. He focused on mastering every form, clearly a terrible mistake to make as per the omniscient dueling god Dooku.

Originally posted by quanchi112
1. I have agreed he was superior to Maul in the fight so what's your gripe ?

2. Star Wars takes place in a time of war. Star Trek does not. Have you no faith in the empire Sheev has put together ? Are you afraid of Khan ?

1. My gripe was in reference to how you treat sourcebooks. Are you even following?

2. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. My gripe was in reference to how you treat sourcebooks. Are you even following?

2. What are you talking about? 1. I just said I never challenged that since Sidious clearly was better. You give a vague statement in reference to nothing specific without citing Maul initially. I then respond by saying Sidious is better so I don't disagree and this is your response ??

2. The Wars vs Trek debate. Wars takes place in a time of conflict whereas Trek takes place in a time of peace. Are you afraid of Khan the Star Trek character who will no doubt crush Sheev's old skull.

1. I'm referring to our past debate you cretin. That's like the fourth time that you've shown that you can't keep up with basic conversations.

2. Again, I know nothing about Star Trek. How hard is that to comprehend?

Quan still obsessed with proving Star Wars is shit next to Star Trek I see. The guy really does hate Star Wars. Like in an obsessive way.

At least Star Wars films never flopped though

Originally posted by SunRazer
He says acrobatics are a waste of energy - he still does them.

And he might not use other forms, but he still knows/mastered them, which still counts as technical knowledge/skill. Does Mace incorporate other forms? As I recall he says that specifically in terms of Ataru.

And we are talking about applied technical skill in which case Dooku only saw need for Makashi, but that doesn't make him inferior to Drallig. And Mace only used Vaapad but needed to master other forms to master Juyo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
As I recall he says that specifically in terms of Ataru.

And we are talking about applied technical skill in which case Dooku only saw need for Makashi, but that doesn't make him inferior to Drallig. And Mace only used Vaapad but needed to master other forms to master Juyo.

I believe that's the reason he holds Ataru in disdain - the acrobatics. Which he still employs anyway.

What are you talking about? We count technical skill in terms of what they possess, which includes forms that they don't use.

Why? If he doesn't use them?

More to the point, they evidently don't make him of greater technical skill, or he would use them.

Because we're basically just discussing knowledge of fighting. If you're not, then we're just discussing different things, so we can move on.

Again, Mace doesn't use the other forms either. He just knows them so he has the discipline and experience required to attempt Form VII. Yoda uses just Ataru, etc.

I like how Nova changes his stance on the same topic from debate to debate to suit his agenda

I've used the word "know" a lot already, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because we're basically just discussing knowledge of fighting. If you're not, then we're just discussing different things, so we can move on. We are not though, we're discussing skill in lightsaber combat. You wouldn't bring up that Dooku can do Shii-Cho in a vs debate so I don't see why we should here.

But we deviate from the point, point is that whether of not Dooku has mastered more than Makashi, he only elects to use Makashi in combat and disparages attempts to become a jack-of-all-trades, ergo. he doesn't believe using all seven forms would necessarily make him a better duelist. So why should we fault Yoda for this too?

Uh-huh, you've used the fact that Yoda only used Ataru as proof Sidious is better in this very thread, maybe try to be consistent?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I've used the word "know" a lot already, lol.

Looking for the thread atm where you blatantly contradict yourself now

Might not find it tho

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
I like how Nova changes his stance on the same topic from debate to debate to suit his agenda And failing that, change the topic.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
We are not though, we're discussing skill in lightsaber combat. You wouldn't bring up that Dooku can do Shii-Cho in a vs debate so I don't see why we should here.

Maybe because this isn't a vs debate? And I didn't bring up Dooku knowing Shii-Cho because everyone does.



I'm not faulting Yoda - my point is that he only uses Ataru, yet he's mastered all forms and is known for being a technical powerhouse. Likewise, Dooku only using Makashi doesn't mean he hasn't mastered other things.

Obviously Dooku's disdain for using all the forms is why he doesn't do that. That doesn't mean he doesn't know them. Yoda uses solely Ataru to compensate for his height, but that doesn't stop him from knowing other forms. Nor Zoltan from fielding Yoda as a candidate for most technically skilled in the thread, and everything you've said about Dooku applies to Yoda as well.



Instead of attacking inconsistency that isn't there, you should be keeping your brain from leaking more fluid. My reasoning for Sidious > Yoda in this thread was this:

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yoda isn't stated to be a master of numerous forbidden martial arts, nor Jar'kai(?) and doesn't really use a seamless mix of forms like Sidious does, which is probably the true hallmark of somebody who's mastered everything. In the end, Yoda's still more of a specialist than a generalist like Sidious.

Which is why I also rank Sidious above Dooku. There's nothing I've applied differently between Sidious v Yoda and Sidious v Dooku.

Apart from using a few words loosely, I haven't contradicted myself at all here. Both you and Zoltan are just completely missing the point.

I know what you mean, but it's bullshit. When one talks about skill they don't mean how many things they know, but how good they are. Which is the actual definition of skill:

Definitions of skill
noun
the ability to do something well; expertise.

Sidious mastering more fighting styles doesn't make him do sabercombat better than Yoda, hence he's not more skilled.

Make a thread about who mastered the most fighting styles and there you can proclaim Sidious the best

Look, we're both talking about different things, so I'm not sure what we're in conflict over. We basically agree with each other when it comes to those different topics anyway. The only problem is that we're conflating the two. So we can just leave it alone now.

Oh, and the definition of skilled (as in the title) is this:

Search Results
skilled
skɪld/
adjective
adjective: skilled

having or showing the knowledge, ability, or training to perform a certain activity or task well.

So yes, it can refer to knowledge as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Look, we're both talking about different things, so I'm not sure what we're in conflict over.

Because yours is wrong.

Originally posted by SunRazer
to perform a certain activity or task well.

Which Sidious still doesn't do better

If we're talking about dueling as a whole, then yes. That cramped fight against Yoda was one instance only, and we know Sidious can beat Yoda in dueling as well per the Website.

Quote?

It's a news article, not a blog, so it's canon.