Can RotS Palpatine speedblitz Darth Plagueis?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Azronger

Beniboybling
facepalm

Deronn_solo
Next thread by AZ: "Is Palpatine a more powerful focal point of the dark side than The Son?".

Geistalt
Originally posted by Azronger
Post your thoughts down below. Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm Not much, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm

This.

And where is Temp when you need him.

Kurk
canon vs eu

darthbane77
Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm It's a cold day in hell when I find myself in agreement with Beni.

Azronger
What did I do wrong? sad

Beniboybling
The title should provide some clues. smile

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Kurk
canon vs eu



Yes too much mixing and matching of these in his argument.

cs_zoltan
Except TCW was part of the EU before the Disney split, so that's bullshit.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The title should provide some clues. smile

I meant the argument itself. What do you disagree with?

Beniboybling
Too many things to count, but most importantly, Palps was plainly holding back.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Too many things to count, but most importantly, Palps was plainly holding back.

Based on what?

Beniboybling
Based on the source stating he barely begun to tap into his reserves by the end of the fight, which means he was holding back.

Azronger
I already addressed that.

UCanShootMyNova
That justification relies on us accepting that a Force user can only reach a certain maximum level for whatever power they're using despite having reserves of Force energy left within them.

Other then that I can't find any gaping holes in your argument.

Beniboybling
You brought up an example where Sidious held off some fodder for several hours without tiring, but failed to acknowledge that the fact they were fodder was why he didn't tire.

Now if that had been Anakin do you think things would have gone differently?

MythLord
I already countered this... it's from Maul's perspective and Sheev was toying with him. It's literally outright said in the damn novel he didn't even try and Maul realized this. And before you say Sidious can fight hours without tiring: that is against utter fodder. It stands to reason if someone can actively pressure you, you'd need to draw more heavily on your reserves to combat them.

I mean, in the middle of Maul's rage-filled bloodlusted, Sheev stops fvcking around and casually moves too fast for Maul to see and slams him against a wall.

Azronger
Only some bits are from Maul's perspective. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. and Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. for instance, are not. And the Dark Side Sourcebook certainly is not, so that whole point is moot.

And I'm pretty sure Mace was pressing Palpatine way harder than Maul ever was, being his equal and all, yet he was stated - or at least implied - to be able to fight Mace forever, so it would be an accurate deduction to say that he had only begun to tap into his reserves when the duel concluded. Does that mean he was holding back and capable of insta-stomping Mace via speedblitz any time he wanted? I doubt that. I don't see why Maul's case would be any different. He had only begun to tap into his reserves in the sense that he was not even close to exhaustion, not in the sense that he was holding back in speed or anything like that.

And the Dark Side sourcebook, IMO, puts this debate to rest. It literally states Maul nearly bested Sidious, and that Sidious was struggling to deflect his blows. Those are facts.

DarthAnt66
Leave it to Azronger to argue Maul legitimately challenged TPM Palpatine, but then argue that TPM Palpatine is infinitely more powerful than Valkorion.

Azronger
Not infinitely, just solidly.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Except TCW was part of the EU before the Disney split, so that's bullshit.


TCW always ignored the EU though. So there was massive loads of contradictions at that time which was addressed by TCW taking priority because it was a higher level of canon.

So can't mix and match them as equal pieces of evidence. Never could.

Azronger
EU contradicts itself, too, lmao.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Only some bits are from Maul's perspective. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. and Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. for instance, are not. And the Dark Side Sourcebook certainly is not, so that whole point is moot.

And I'm pretty sure Mace was pressing Palpatine way harder than Maul ever was, being his equal and all, yet he was stated - or at least implied - to be able to fight Mace forever, so it would be an accurate deduction to say that he had only begun to tap into his reserves when the duel concluded. Does that mean he was holding back and capable of insta-stomping Mace via speedblitz any time he wanted? I doubt that. I don't see why Maul's case would be any different. He had only begun to tap into his reserves in the sense that he was not even close to exhaustion, not in the sense that he was holding back in speed or anything like that.

And the Dark Side sourcebook, IMO, puts this debate to rest. It literally states Maul nearly bested Sidious, and that Sidious was struggling to deflect his blows. Those are facts. Considering Mace never pressed Sidious to such an extreme that Maul appeared to, I'd rather think that comparison is irrelevant.

On the other hand if Maul was legitimately overpowering Sidious in that engagement, the latter would have been pressed to draw deeply on his reserves, but he wasn't, so he wasn't.* That simple.

And the Dark Side Sourcebook doesn't say anything contradictory, that Maul nearly bested Sidious is true, and self-evident from the text, what we are disputing is whether or not Sidious allowed that to occur by not properly drawing on the Force, which he did.

*and yes, considering at the moment before Maul is beaten, Sidious essentially appears to vanish, he was absolutely holding back in speed, or something like that.

MythLord
The whole "fighting forever" is just another example of Matthew's hyperbolic writting. And the entire fight was just Mace and Sidious redirecting Dark Side energy at each other, so in theory they could keep channeling that indefinitely; nothing of the sort occurs in the Maul fight.

Additionally, your argument points to Sidious as of RotS being astronomically greater than TPM Sidious, so comparing their respective stamina is rather contradictory to begin with.

Beni countered the rest adequately.

Rockydonovang
tpm maul>valkorian

ILS
This thread simultaneously made me erect and gave me an aneurysm.

Unbowed
For whatever it's worth, Plagueis was amazed by pre-TPM Maul's speed.

Also I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious here, but the fact that Sidious can quickly overpower Maul when he gets serious doesn't mean he isn't legitimately achallenged by Maul's offense.

It just means Maul is better at attacking than at defending, which makes sense given his personality and the fact that he uses Juyo.

To use a boxing analogy, you can hit as hard as your opponent but if you have a glass jaw and he doesn't, you're going to lose.

An unrestrained Maul with a rage amp can almost overpower Sidious' defenses, but he can't come even close to defending himself from that same caliber of attack.
***

In my own headcanon Maul only lost because of the limitations of his mechanical legs.

SunRazer
I don't have time to read all of the OP, so can someone just summarize the points? I should know what the evidence is for most of the points anyway.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Azronger
EU contradicts itself, too, lmao.


And then people wonder why it was thrown out of canon lmao

Zenwolf
What doesn't have contradictions these days?

Darth Thor
It's not so much about contradictions as it is about having a decent level of consistency.


And Legends just never was very consistent with Canon.

Fated Xtasy
Ok I'm out of work. So lemme tell you how this argument fails.

You're saying that Sheev can blitz a Plagueis Tier opponent. Firstly, you have to prove that Maul is close to Plagueis in every way. Which you haven't. FYI, I hate Plagueis, he's overrated, but even I gotta admit that calling Maul an equal to Plagueis is reaching.

Saying he even pushed Sheev back is baffling too. Tbfh

UCanShootMyNova
Why would Maul need to be close to Plagueis in every way? It seems like he'd only need to be close in speed tbh.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't have time to read all of the OP, so can someone just summarize the points? I should know what the evidence is for most of the points anyway.
-tpm sidious, who was almost killed dueling wise by an enraged maul, matches plagueis speed wise.
-tcw sidious blitzed an enraged maul in shadow conpiracy
-sidious can blitz plagueis tier opponenta

Rockydonovang
so since fisto didn't get outright blitzed by sidious, he's faster than plagueis?

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Darth Thor
It's not so much about contradictions as it is about having a decent level of consistency.


And Legends just never was very consistent with Canon.

Meh I never really noticed any huge inconsistencies, but perhaps I just haven't read enough novels or comics to notice. That and I could have also just forgotten, haven't really read much SW material lately unless I'm asked for info.

But there is certain glaring inconsistencies with trying to put TCW in the Legends bracket, even moreso now that it's Canon, which is why I just treat it as the latter except for very, very selective things which actually can fit within Legends and aren't much of a stretch.

Geistalt
The fact that Sidious can gradually beat Maul and Opress at once isn't adequate grounds to say he can speedblitz Darth Plagueis.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering Mace never pressed Sidious to such an extreme that Maul appeared to, I'd rather think that comparison is irrelevant.

Fair enough on Mace not pushing Sidious as hard as Maul, but that wasn't the point. You said that Sidious didn't tire because the Kursid were fodder. Mace is far from fodder, yet he could've fought for a really, really long time without exhaustion setting in. That proves your claim wrong.



According to whom? As I said, the "had only begun to tap into his reserves" is in regards to Sidious' stamina. It would be perfectly accurate to say Sidious had only begun to tap into his reserves during the conclusion of the Mace fight, even though Mace legitimately pressed him pretty hard. The same applies to the Maul fight.



Yeah, and there's no evidence Sidious didn't draw deeply on the Force, so whether Sidious allowed Maul to win or not is unknown.

Also, you failed to address the "barely deflected them all part", which should be a pretty conclusive statement. If you're holding back a gargantuan amount, you don't "barely" succeed at something; you pass with flying colors. The statement only makes sense if Sidious was going all-out.



Not sure what you're talking about here. He appeared to vanish before Maul even got his rage amp, so that's irrelevant.

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
The whole "fighting forever" is just another example of Matthew's hyperbolic writting. And the entire fight was just Mace and Sidious redirecting Dark Side energy at each other, so in theory they could keep channeling that indefinitely; nothing of the sort occurs in the Maul fight.

Of course it's hyperbole. Not sure how that defeats my point, though, since it obviously still implies he could've fought for a really long time.

The dark side energy that was being redirected was all coming from Sidious. It's not like he gained some additional boost from his own finite pool of energy, lol.



Except my argument never had anything to do with stamina, but speed, so no, it's not contradictory.

Azronger
Originally posted by ILS
This thread simultaneously made me erect and gave me an aneurysm.

I got you horny. I'm flattered.

But anyway, what do you disagree with?

Azronger
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ok I'm out of work. So lemme tell you how this argument fails.

You're saying that Sheev can blitz a Plagueis Tier opponent. Firstly, you have to prove that Maul is close to Plagueis in every way. Which you haven't. FYI, I hate Plagueis, he's overrated, but even I gotta admit that calling Maul an equal to Plagueis is reaching.

Saying he even pushed Sheev back is baffling too. Tbfh

I only have to proof they're comparable in speed, not in every way, lol.

Azronger
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
so since fisto didn't get outright blitzed by sidious, he's faster than plagueis?

He had Windu as a distraction.

Azronger
Originally posted by Geistalt
The fact that Sidious can gradually beat Maul and Opress at once isn't adequate grounds to say he can speedblitz Darth Plagueis.

That isn't what I said at all, lmao.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Fair enough on Mace not pushing Sidious as hard as Maul, but that wasn't the point. You said that Sidious didn't tire because the Kursid were fodder. Mace is far from fodder, yet he could've fought for a really, really long time without exhaustion setting in. That proves your claim wrong.I defer to Myth's point in this regard, the novelisation makes it clear that the reason Palpatine would not fatigue was because of the superconducting loop. To highlight the pointmessedidious became part of a circuit, the energy flowing out of him passing through Windu to flow back in, hence the absence of fatigue.

On the other hand despite only toying around, Sidious is visibly fatigued after a minute or so of fighting against the Maul brothers.

Which proves your claim wrong. smile

According to simple logic. erm

Stamina is essentially the amount of power or energy you can expend before exhaustion, and therefore is entirely relative the energy demanded by the task at hand, or rather the power and threat of your opponent.

And because stamina and power are relative, to be pressed hard by your opponent is to draw deeply on your reserves. Just as you would have to draw deeply on your own "reserves" to lift a taxing weight or resist a pressing force. Reserves in those contexts, simply being another word for strength or power.

See above.

No you don't, because you are holding back a gargantuan amount. Hence why its a common trope for the hero to get trashed when they curb their powers against a serious and lethal opponent, or why it would be entirely unwise for a talented street fighter to hold back in a fight against a lethal killer.

This is again, simple logic.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Of course it's hyperbole. Not sure how that defeats my point, though, since it obviously still implies he could've fought for a really long time.

Sure, a really long time... How long, though? That could just be hours. It's a vague, unquantifiable quote.

Originally posted by Azronger
The dark side energy that was being redirected was all coming from Sidious. It's not like he gained some additional boost from his own finite pool of energy, lol.

The quote outright says he's part of the superconducting loop.

Originally posted by Azronger
Except my argument never had anything to do with stamina, but speed, so no, it's not contradictory.

Stamina and speed are equally influenced by Force augmentation, so they are connected. You're drawing on your reserves to move as fast as you are, your reserves are literally feeding your stamina. So it is contradictory.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Zenwolf


But there is certain glaring inconsistencies with trying to put TCW in the Legends bracket, even moreso now that it's Canon, which is why I just treat it as the latter except for very, very selective things which actually can fit within Legends and aren't much of a stretch.



That's what I meant.

NTJack0
Just terrible.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I defer to Myth's point in this regard, the novelisation makes it clear that the reason Palpatine would not fatigue was because of the superconducting loop. To highlight the pointmessedidious became part of a circuit, the energy flowing out of him passing through Windu to flow back in, hence the absence of fatigue.

Alright, fair enough. I'll stop using this point to argue Sidious' stamina from now on.



And the reason he was fatigued was because he was messing around, not drawing on the Force very deeply. Given that he doesn't let out a single sigh/moan/whatever after that, I'm inclined to believe he simply washed away his exhaustion with the Force, like Dooku did in RotS:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

If Sidious had truly been fatigued, then there'd have been more panting and not just a single sigh.



Yes, this does make sense for normal humans who have no Force to draw upon. But Force users can simply restore all of their stamina on the fly, like Dooku did in the example above. He was drawing very deeply on the Force to not get crushed by Anakin's meteor strike-esque blows, to the point where each strike "aged him a decade". Yet even a momentary break allowed Dooku to restore all of his stamina with absolutely no issue. The junior novel even outright dismisses the possibility of Anakin outlasting Dooku:

He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

Obviously there is a limit to how many times Force users can replenish their stamina, but I hope you get my point: Force users' power/strength isn't relative to their stamina. It would be perfectly accurate to say Dooku had only begun to tap into his reserves at the conclusion of his fight with Anakin, despite being pressed harder than he'd ever been.

I believe this to be the case with Sidious and his fight Maul, as well, for I do believe Sidious was legitimately pressed (I'll elaborate down below), yet Maul noted he had only begun tapping into his reserves, which means he wasn't tired and could keep going for much longer.



Your examples only make sense if the fighters are in the same speed class. If I, for example, were twice as fast as a normal human in literally every aspect of life, and I wanted to live my life doing everything twice as fast as a regural human, then in order for me to function normally and remain in control of my actions, my sense of perception would have to be twice as fast as well. What I mean by this is that I would percieve everything in slow motion. For example, a car going 50 km/h would be percieved as going 25 km/h by me.

To better illustrate my point, let's look at Quicksilver from X-men: Days of the Future Past and Apocalypse: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NnyVc8r2SM and https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LIcOFvWqjk

The above scenes are from Quicksilver's perspective and show the world around him in slow motion. Even bullets are so slow to him that it would be impossible for him to "barely" dodge them. He can make it look like he has difficulty doing so from the perspective of normal people, or that he barely managed to evade in time, but in reality it's as easy to him as breathing. Quicksilver isn't going to "barely" dodge bullets, it's an impossibility for him.

In a similar sense, Sidious is faster than an unamped Maul by an unholy amount. So he'd logically be also perceiving Maul's lightsaber attacks in slow motion, making it impossible for him to be "barely" able to deflect them. Sure, he could feign weakness, but the DS sourcebook mentions no such thing. The DS sourcebook's statement only makes sense if the enraged Maul was truly matching Sidious' speed and making him work for it.



Did you just intentionally leave out the very next sentence?

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
He had Windu as a distraction.
You're just in denial about fisto's plagueis blitzing capabiliites

SunRazer
lol

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
And the reason he was fatigued was because he was messing around, not drawing on the Force very deeply. Given that he doesn't let out a single sigh/moan/whatever after that, I'm inclined to believe he simply washed away his exhaustion with the Force, like Dooku did in RotS:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

If Sidious had truly been fatigued, then there'd have been more panting and not just a single sigh.Fair, but the point is that if Palpatine was struggling in this instance, he should have shown signs of fatigue. Unless he was in fact holding back and could easily wash it all away.

That's Dooku, and I'm not inclined to believe its normal for Force sensitives at all, since its replicated nowhere. When a Force user gets exhausted, they remain so, they don't click their fingers and heal to full.

Which makes me inclined to believe this is a special power taught to him by Sidious.

Point being that Dooku was fatigued, and did draw deeply on his reserves (as he is in fact described to in the fight), to the point of utter depletion, but had a trump card by which he could circumvent that.

Naturally Sidious should have this power too, but likewise he should only consider using it once his personal reserves were exhausted.

Terrible example I'm afraid, this is not X-Men, and Sidious is not Quicksilver. He does not see the world in slow motion. Instead a Force wielders powers and perceptions are only as enhanced as they make them to be. For example when Dooku immerses himself in the Force in preparation for combat, his perceptions are altered as well:
So no, if Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force he simply wouldn't be as fast, as strong, as perceptive etc. and his disadvantage against Maul would be very real.

Because it happens next yes, as in after, not seeing any reason to believe his strength had already evaporated before that.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair, but the point is that if Palpatine was struggling in this instance, he should have shown signs of fatigue. Unless he was in fact holding back and could easily wash it all away.

Um, he was holding back a tremendous amount.



Okay, fair enough.



Who's to say Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force? He was in a combat situation, just like Dooku. And don't tell me it was because Maul was fodder. Dooku considered Anakin and Obi-Wan to be fodder as well; the text makes it very clear.

And Sidious doesn't have to be Quicksilver, nor does Star Wars have to be X-men. It was simply a visual illustration of my point; pictures tell more than a thousand words, as the old saying goes, isn't that right?

The faster you move, the slower time appears to flow around you. Sidious is moving faster than Maul can perceive. Therefore, from Sidious' perspective, Maul would appear to be standing still or close to it. As I have said many times, it would be impossible for him to "barely" be able to deflect his blows if he could blitz Maul any time he wanted. The only reasonable explanation for it is that Maul was legitimately pressing Sidious.



No, it was already happening. You would have a point if the text said something along the lines of "his strength was beginning to evaporate", but instead it says "his strength was evaporating", as in it already was. This should be rather obvious from the previous sentence where Maul's vision is blurring.

I also wonder how you concluded "speedblitz" from "manuevering like a liquid shadow".

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Um, he was holding back a tremendous amount.I'm talking about the fight we are discussing, in which case correct.

Because if he was and was despite that being legitimately overpowered by his apprentice, he would have been forced to draw deeply on his reserves, as well as display signs of exhausation. He did not, therefore he was not, and because he was not Maul was able to legitimately overpower him, without being a Plagueis-tier opponent.

Yes it was, but there is no evidence to suggest it started to happen before Palpatine vanished, instead Maul is depicted as at the height of his rage:
I'm not seeing any room for Maul's strength suddenly depleting between him raging at his master, and Sidious vanishing, and his vision only blurs after the fact as well.

First of all I didn't say speedblitz, but vanish, it which case yeah its obvious. A shadow is something that is both intangible and appears instantly, with the speed of light, to move as a liquid shadow therefore is to be in one place then and a different place the next. The fact that Maul is described as suddenly up against the wall only reinforces this.

Rockydonovang
as qui gon's cotention with maul indicates, qui gon could blitz plagueis

DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Mi-z7gHXM

Didn't know where to put this, so I'll do it here.

Ian says Palpatine is the fastest in the universe around 21:30.

He's said similiar in other interviews, though.

---

Around 22:05, Ian says Palpatine fights at the speed of light / sound.

SunRazer
"Speed of light, if not sound" lol

Good find nevertheless.

TheNuisanceBird
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Except TCW was part of the EU before the Disney split, so that's bullshit.

Well even before they still retconned a lot. As far as I'm concerned they basically were doing their own thing.

Azronger
rolling on floor laughing

Not_a_sock
Nah I don't think so. Palpatine's speed is overblown.

Freedon Nadd
No, ROTS Sidious can't speedbiltz Plagueis. He is not the Flash. Or is he? The Senate-Flash.

Bring in the angry helicopter sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdu1oyKEgXg

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.