Modern Maul: Was He Fully Trained?

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ILS

ILS

SunRazer
I was wondering if that miniature quote was gonna come up. smile

Zenwolf
I don't see why this would be in question, of course he's fully trained.

ILS
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I don't see why this would be in question, of course he's fully trained. He's always been a fully trained fighter, but people there's still those who say he's not a fully trained Sith.

Plus, this argument makes it hard to suggest that Maul wouldn't be aware of the more ancient techniques that Sidious knows about. Clearly he would have told Maul about them.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ILS
He's always been a fully trained fighter, but people there's still those who say he's not a fully trained Sith.

Plus, this argument makes it hard to suggest that Maul wouldn't be aware of the more ancient techniques that Sidious knows about. Clearly he would have told Maul about them.

Since when is there a criteria for who needs to know what in order to be a Sith Lord?

ILS
Originally posted by ILS
He's always been a fully trained fighter, but people there's still those who say he's not a fully trained Sith.

Plus, this argument makes it hard to suggest that Maul wouldn't be aware of the more ancient techniques that Sidious knows about. Clearly he would have told Maul about them. Which reminds me:

I totally forgot to mention the recent developments in Rebels regarding Holocrons. Yeah, you do not gimp the training of a guy who not only knows how to access ancient Sith holocrons, but combine them with Jedi holocrons in order to uncover knowledge the participant otherwise would not have had the faintest clue of. The telepathy was also nice, and I think there's a fair comparison to be made there, between a Sith Lord and a pretender: Kylo Ren got his shit handed to him by Rey trying to pull off the knowledge-ripping technique, but Maul pulls it off with impetuous ease (albeit on a non-Force sensitive), and also projected those illusions into Ezra's mind so thoroughly he nearly killed a guy.

There's plenty of discussion in Rebels regarding Maul's extensive knowledge of intricate Sith techniques/customs. More fuel to the fire or nah?

SunRazer
I don't think there's any doubt in terms of Canon. Legends seems to have been "retconned" on the issue.

ILS
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Since when is there a criteria for who needs to know what in order to be a Sith Lord? Since Star Wars fans have had opinions. Also, I'm not merely discussing qualification to be considered Sith - Savage Opress has been called a Sith by many sources - but rather "fully trained". As in, Sidious did not hold back any of his teachings from Maul that he considered relevant to training the most complete Sith possible.

Not everyone is on-board, so this is my case.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by ILS
Since Star Wars fans have had opinions. Also, I'm not merely discussing qualification to be considered Sith - Savage Opress has been called a Sith by many sources - but rather "fully trained". As in, Sidious did not hold back any of his teachings from Maul that he considered relevant to training the most complete Sith possible.

Not everyone is on-board, so this is my case.

Well being blunt, opinions don't mean much when coming to this. If someone is a fully trained Sith Lord....then they are a fully trained Sith Lord.

I mean Vader didn't know anywhere near the stuff Sidious did, yet he's considered a fully trained Sith Lord right?

If going into Legends, Darth Malgus was a fully trained Sith Lord right? He certainly didn't know any rituals or weird powers or whatever.

It seems to me, there's no real set qualifications on how to become a Sith Lord.

So...yeah, Maul is a fully trained Sith in either canon.

Nice write up though regardless.

ILS
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well being blunt, opinions don't mean much when coming to this. If someone is a fully trained Sith Lord....then they are a fully trained Sith Lord.

I mean Vader didn't know anywhere near the stuff Sidious did, yet he's considered a fully trained Sith Lord right?

If going into Legends, Darth Malgus was a fully trained Sith Lord right? He certainly didn't know any rituals or weird powers or whatever.

It seems to me, there's no real set qualifications on how to become a Sith Lord.

So...yeah, Maul is a fully trained Sith in either canon.

Nice write up though regardless. Totally agreed. Maul is a full Sith Lord.

But I'm taking it a step further and saying Sidious didn't leave a scrap of relevant information out of his training. Maul was the real deal, he would have been fit to continue the RoT in Sidious' stead, and by proxy of this, even receives partial Banite scaling.

Enough scaling to say that, say, Bane, who is so redundant even at his peak to Sidious that the notion of him taking the reins of the Rule of Two is about as likely as snow cracking bedrock open, wouldn't have a chance in hell of beating Maul in a fight, or any other contest between two Sith.

Thanks! Appreciate it.

SunRazer
The only problem is that we have no idea how close Maul was to completing his training - other than not being close at all (since he wasn't anywhere near Sidious by TPM). I'm not sure you can directly scale Maul off Bane for that reason.

How many years did Maul spend under Sidious?

Also, I'm finding it interesting that Sidious was still giving Tyranus and Vader access to more or less equivalent training and material despite knowing full well that they'd never surpass him. Maybe he just didn't think it'd be of any consequence to him.

NewGuy01
Certainly not; were he fully trained, he'd be prepared to challenge Palpatine, which he very clearly wasn't.

SunRazer
I think ILS meant "fully trained" as in taught in all aspects. He definitely wasn't anywhere close to surpassing Palpatine.

quanchi112
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Certainly not; were he fully trained, he'd be prepared to challenge Palpatine, which he very clearly wasn't. Horrendous reasoning.

ILS
We know Maul has to have more potential than Bane, thus a faster aptitude for learning Force abilities.

We know his access to resources shit all over Bane's, from information available, to training techniques and quality of mentors.

We know Maul's indoctrination into the Sith was done at a far more critical stage (infancy through to adulthood) in his lifetime.

And we also know that, comparing their time spent immersed in the Dark Side, Maul spent longer. Bane started his illustrious career as a Sith G.I at like 18 and died at 46. So 28 years.

Maul was virtually a baby, we'll say 2 for the sake of simplicity. In Legends, to our knowledge, that's 14-16 years of training before Sidious crowned him a Sith Lord with complete training. Maul then spent the next roughly 7 years doing nothing but relentless training, and engaging in countless - often grueling - missions for Sidious. Note that tribulation is necessary for Sith growth, so Maul had no shortage of this.

So we're at the 20 year mark for Dark Side immersion at TPM, where I would assume Maul is already better than Bane. All that insane manipulative skill and RoT-esque behaviour he displays in TCW was honed to perfection prior to TPM. I don't think TPM Maul would do any worse than Bane at furthering the order from this point on, if he had to.

But for the sake of argument, let's keep going. We're at year 20. What does Maul spend the next 12 years doing? Descending into a living nightmare of insane, horrific agony, resentment, disgust, regret, fear, anger and sheer hatred. He lived his own worse nightmare again, and again, and again until he lost his mind, and then he kept going. And he ate raw lizards the whole time.

So that's 32 years spent growing his power? Already 4 ahead of Bane? Bearing in mind all of the disparities in equality I mentioned at the start? Then Maul spends maybe a year, maybe less than a year during TCW growing all the more powerful from his various tribulations and traumas, not the least of which is Talzin and Savage getting the axe right before his eyes.

But then, it gets better, because 20 years later still, Maul re-appears in Rebels. All evidence suggests he spent his time scouring ancient Sith temples, accumulating resources, killing inquisitors, and probably a ridiculous amount of bitter self-loathing, and resentment for everyone who robbed him of his life purpose, which again, is going to keep pissing him off and thus keep immersing him further into the Dark Side.

That's over 30 years more time spent than Bane growing his power, and dare i say it, Maul has been through at least as much as shit as Bane has with his daddy issues and orbalisks. So yeah, while I don't expect anyone to get on-board with such a convoluted argument, I find it insanely hard to believe that Maul isn't well beyond Bane.

ILS
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Certainly not; were he fully trained, he'd be prepared to challenge Palpatine, which he very clearly wasn't. I guess fully is the wrong word to use, but in this case, I don't know what else fits for what I'm arguing.

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
We know Maul has to have more potential than Bane, thus a faster aptitude for learning Force abilities.

We know his access to resources shit all over Bane's, from information available, to training techniques and quality of mentors.

We know Maul's indoctrination into the Sith was done at a far more critical stage (infancy through to adulthood) in his lifetime.

And we also know that, comparing their time spent immersed in the Dark Side, Maul spent longer. Bane started his illustrious career as a Sith G.I at like 18 and died at 46. So 28 years.

Maul was virtually a baby, we'll say 2 for the sake of simplicity. In Legends, to our knowledge, that's 14-16 years of training before Sidious crowned him a Sith Lord with complete training. Maul then spent the next roughly 7 years doing nothing but relentless training, and engaging in countless - often grueling - missions for Sidious. Note that tribulation is necessary for Sith growth, so Maul had no shortage of this.

So we're at the 20 year mark for Dark Side immersion at TPM, where I would assume Maul is already better than Bane. All that insane manipulative skill and RoT-esque behaviour he displays in TCW was honed to perfection prior to TPM. I don't think TPM Maul would do any worse than Bane at furthering the order from this point on, if he had to.

But for the sake of argument, let's keep going. We're at year 20. What does Maul spend the next 12 years doing? Descending into a living nightmare of insane, horrific agony, resentment, disgust, regret, fear, anger and sheer hatred. He lived his own worse nightmare again, and again, and again until he lost his mind, and then he kept going. And he ate raw lizards the whole time.

So that's 32 years spent growing his power? Already 4 ahead of Bane? Bearing in mind all of the disparities in equality I mentioned at the start? Then Maul spends maybe a year, maybe less than a year during TCW growing all the more powerful from his various tribulations and traumas, not the least of which is Talzin and Savage getting the axe right before his eyes.

But then, it gets better, because 20 years later still, Maul re-appears in Rebels. All evidence suggests he spent his time scouring ancient Sith temples, accumulating resources, killing inquisitors, and probably a ridiculous amount of bitter self-loathing, and resentment for everyone who robbed him of his life purpose, which again, is going to keep pissing him off and thus keep immersing him further into the Dark Side.

That's over 30 years more time spent than Bane growing his power, and dare i say it, Maul has been through at least as much as shit as Bane has with his daddy issues and orbalisks. So yeah, while I don't expect anyone to get on-board with such a convoluted argument, I find it insanely hard to believe that Maul isn't well beyond Bane.

Well in fairness, you're mixing Canon and Legends. We have no idea how long Bane was studying as a Sith in Canon.

Legends-wise, Maul had, according to you, about 20 years, albeit with better training, resources, etc. than Bane, who had close to 30 years. After that, Maul got cut in half and spent over a decade languishing on Lotho Minor as an insane hermit. So really, Maul had better everything for a full two-thirds of Bane's Sith career, including much greater potential, but for the final third he was just festering away on Lotho Minor with his potential being deeply stunted.

I mean, as I see it, it's more than enough to put Maul up there with Bane, but putting him well beyond Bane? Not sure.

Also, which quotes say that Sidious gave Maul unrestricted access to Sith material?

ILS
Fantastic point actually. I'll keep my argument limited to Legends Bane.
In other words, a version of what I said which looks upon Maul's (objective) power growth from Lotho Minor far less favourably than it ought to.

Maul had better formal training with a better Force aptitude, at least as many hardships of at least equal quality, and more time spent growing. You also left out my points regarding Rebels Maul, so I guess you agree on those points.

I personally think your objections with my post are a little silly, and I'm wondering if you're now at a point of just disagreeing for shits and giggles? Maul's "festering" on Lotho Minor was one of the most profound descents into the Dark Side anyone in Star Wars has ever gone into. There's a reason sources are bursting at the seams telling us the process only made Maul more powerful.

As for the quotes, the ones where Sidious trained Maul "in all Sith ways" or "all forms of Sith arts". Please tell me these are self-explanatory enough for you, Nova. Like I said, I'm already going terminal in the Savage thread. Between you and kbro I'm seriously considering ending my wh0le career.

ILS
To address your edit: While his potential was stunted, he was still growing in power, so I hesitate to assume losing his legs set his peak at Bane-level. We're talking about 1000 years of difference here.

The Merchant
Maul>Vader.

SunRazer
Originally posted by ILS
Fantastic point actually. I'll keep my argument limited to Legends Bane.
In other words, a version of what I said which looks upon Maul's (objective) power growth from Lotho Minor far less favourably than it ought to.

Maul had better formal training with a better Force aptitude, at least as many hardships of at least equal quality, and more time spent growing. You also left out my points regarding Rebels Maul, so I guess you agree on those points.

I personally think your objections with my post are a little silly, and I'm wondering if you're now at a point of just disagreeing for shits and giggles? Maul's "festering" on Lotho Minor was one of the most profound descents into the Dark Side anyone in Star Wars has ever gone into. There's a reason sources are bursting at the seams telling us the process only made Maul more powerful.

As for the quotes, the ones where Sidious trained Maul "in all Sith ways" or "all forms of Sith arts". Please tell me these are self-explanatory enough for you, Nova. Like I said, I'm already going terminal in the Savage thread. Between you and kbro I'm seriously considering ending my wh0le career.

I left out Rebels Maul because he's Canon. If that was Legends, Maul would be shitting on Bane by Rebels.

No, my point is that Maul was obviously growing much better than Bane for the first twenty years, but despite the fact that he still grew in those last ten years, it probably wouldn't have been much - and I don't know if you still do, but you did once hold that stance yourself. If there's evidence that he grew a lot on Lotho Minor, that would raise his standing for me.

I do think the material presented here is enough to put him above Bane, but not "well ahead", although naturally that depends on how you define it.

And of course Sidious trained Maul in all aspects of Sith arts. I already mentioned that, and that's not what I asked. I asked if he had unrestricted access to everything (in Legends). You can teach someone numerous areas but still keep some stuff in each area from them. I thought you once showed me an actual quote about Sidious allowing Maul unrestricted access to the Sith archives or something?

Red Heathen

Azronger
Maul knows Force lightning, although he doesn't use it for some reason.

ILS
For the sake of clarity: I am not saying he was at any point not a fully fledged Sith Lord. He has always been as much. As early as the darkside sourcebook he's described as the violent embodiment of his partnership with Sidious, let alone a non-Sith. What I'm discussing is the expanded interpretation on his character over the years. He was not presented as a potential RoT successor/master manipulator or Force powerhouse in TPM, he was presented as a swords guy.
Maybe not every last secret, but enough that he'd be considered worthy of continuing the RoT one day. My sources make it quite clear that in the time Maul did spend with Sidious, Sidious held little back in moulding him into a Sith Lord.
I think here, and in other parts of your post, you've jumped the gun. As I made perfectly clear, I don't think lightning is a prerequisite for being a fully fledged Sith Lord. I was being facetious, and I don't care one way or another if some obscure sources list Maul as having the ability - he doesn't use it, and I don't think that's a detriment to him. The problem with the telepathy comparison is that Maul hasn't had an excess of times he's needed to use that ability, but he's always had plenty of opportunity to use lightning in battle.

Does that sound agreeable?
I'm assuming this isn't an argument, because I agree, and said exactly this in my OP: the Sith's primary directive is to kill Jedi, and that is what Maul was bred to do.

Again, if this is an argument, you're preaching to the choir. This is i_like_swords from Comic Vine, btw. You know my views on Maul.
Sidious bragged about how him and Maul were going to keep the show running while he choked Plagueis to death. I think that settles this particular issue for good, if Darth Plagueis is your source of preference.
That's awesome if it's in the right context. I'll need to give Lockdown another read. Also, what did you think of Maul ripping off the varactyl's skull? Bearing in mind he was restricting every use of the Force at Sidious' order, everything from sense to telekinesis.
Pretty condemning evidence for anyone claiming Maul isn't important to Sidious, yeah. That part of Lockdown seemed even a little bit inspired by Stover's prose from RotS, in reference to "the Zabrak's heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage."
Please, please, for the sake of your own sanity, stop typing a counter-argument and read the entire post.

Like I said, things I agree with:

-Maul was always a fully fledged Sith
-Maul was always important to Sidious, albeit dispensable
-Maul was indeed hidden from Plagueis

I'm making the argument that if Maul, despite being a Sith Lord, only fulfilled warrior-assassin and stealth duties for Sidious during the 2000s, nowadays in the modern canon, Maul's purpose and development has been expanded to such a degree that Filoni suggests Sidious "trained Maul in his own likeness".

ILS
Originally posted by Azronger
Maul knows Force lightning, although he doesn't use it for some reason. Well there's apparently one or two sources saying he has it, but I distinctly recall in one novel Maul saying "and one day Sidious will teach me to produce electricity from my finger tips" while he lamented over why he's kept out of a lot of the picture.

Like I said, this new take TCW introduced to Maul is very much overriding the old interpretation, but if people try and ignore that the old interpretation ever existed, they're just being ignorant.

relentless1
of course he wasnt fully trained; dude couldn't even use Force lightning laughing out loud

carthage
He really wasn't.

If you look at him in comparison to Dooku or Vader, he has no notable showings of barrier, far inferior demonstrations of telekinesis, and has nowhere near the knowledge of either. Of course Maultards will be "OMG HE CAN RAGDOLL Kenobi" but Ventress and Savage have also effected him. He's the runt of Sidious's trained Sith, and would barely be a grunt in the SWTOR Sith empire.

Red Heathen
My apologies ILS. I did not have much time yesterday, nor do I today, but I want to let you know I was not arguing with you. You made your opening statement, which triggered a deluge of Maul hate memories. You had typed those words, and then I answered them as though I would answer anyone else. Please accept my sincerest apologies if I came across as arguing with you.

I again dont' have time to give a decent reply so I will not attempt it until later this evening or this weekend. One thing I'd like to discuss is your sources. Perhaps we can compare notes?

Beniboybling
Good thread, much Maul wank. Very good. smile

Rockydonovang
you know swords, ahsoka overthrew maul on mandalore, like anakin overthrew sidious...
Ahoska is the chosen one
ashley johnson is on par with matthew stover

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