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The Tenebrous denial is getting old, and I'm inclined to believe it's largely a product of ignorance, so here goes: a comprehensive case for Darth Tenebrous as among the highest echelons of the Sith.

#1 Banite Powerscaling

First of all it's important to understand that this is just the starting point, in no way is the case for Tenebrous predicated entirely, or even mostly on Banite scaling, it merely lays the groundwork. Nonetheless it's important, so let's review.

As we know multiple sources state that over the course of 1,000 years, the Sith grew stronger with each generation:And according to Darth Plagueis this consisted of a total thirty Sith:We can't be sure if Plagueis counts himself and Sidious in this number but regardless, as a rough guide we have a thirty odd successive power creeps between Tenebrous and Darth Bane, which makes him vastly more powerful (a 5% generational increase alone would make him near quadruple in power). To put that into context remember that Bane was capable of collapsing the entrance to the colossal Lehon temple well before his prime with a Force wave; exploding a 20 by 30 meter door with a Force push; conjuring Force lightning that could incinerate its targets; and staggering Darth Zannah with the sheer strength of his attacks.

Logically Tenebrous should massively outstrip each and every one of these accomplishments, in fact, Tenebrous should be able to dominate Bane in combat rather easily. Sufficient certainly to establish him above the Maul, Dooku & even Vader tiers, who've found themselves challenged by comparable, and in some cases inferior opponents (i.e. Qui-Gon, Savage, Kenobi, Ahsoka etc.), and certainly don't massively exceed most, if any, of the aforementioned feats.

It's important however that we don't neglect to mention the accomplishments of some other of Tenebrous' predecessors, such as Darth Gravid, who was able to conjure a series of Force barriers around an entire fortress, and predated Tenebrous by some 500 years (or 15 odd generations), and Tenebrous' own master, who rent a hole in the Force, piercing a powerful "Force bubble" perpetuated by the combined presence of the entire Jedi Order over the course of a millennium. For reference:Frankly both these accomplishments are beyond the pay grade of the aforementioned, not even the likes of Caedus, Revan and Kun have demonstrated the ability to achieve either, let alone vastly outstrip Gravid's accomplishment in addition. This is not necessarily to suggest that they cannot, but merely to frame the feats within a relevant context.

In summary feats of extraordinary power should be easily accomplished by Tenebrous, and cosmic level influence is well within his abilities. Indeed if you're not paying attention, this already puts Tenebrous firmly in the Top 10, unless you're a putrid TOR wanker.

#2 Standing in Comparison to Plagueis

As I say though this is just the foundation; as we can reasonable infer that on top of this Tenebrous was at the point of his death, significantly more powerful than his apprentice. First off we have some basic instances in which Tenebrous simply outperformed him, for example he struggled to match Tenebrous' Force speed, the velocity of which almost barrelled him over:Then when caught in the ensuing mine sundering explosion there is a significant difference between how they handle it, Plagueis, floored by the (diminished) force of the blast, whereas despite turning to meet the explosion head on, Tenebrous capably holds his ground against the full impact:Next is the fact that Tenebrous had indeed neglected Plagueis' training in exchange for furthering his own designs - to bring forth the creation of the Chosen One and possess him using maxi-chlorians - an apprentice he took on only with the intentions of exploiting his talent for midi-chlordan manipulation, and in time to use his as a flesh-suit, not to serve as his successor:And though the story makes clear that Tenebrous ultimately underestimated his apprentice's abilities, the fact remains that a lack of proper training would have significantly hampered his growth, and kept the gap between master & apprentice fairly (and self-evidently) wide.

Then we have Venamis, whom when it became apparent that Plagueis might prove threatening to his designs he acquired to replace him, no more than two decades before Tenebrous' death, an apprentice whom while simultaneously devoting himself to the study of maxi-chlorians, managed to train to a sufficient level to be perceived by Plagueis as rivalling his power:Noting that we can rule out the possibility of him sensing Palpatine considering Plagueis was unable to sense his presence even in person and after multiple probings, leading him to theorise that the sheer magnitude of Palpatine's abilities led to him being naturally concealed:I also believe we can rule out the matter of latent potential rather than realised power, since the context given is a threat to Plagueis' Force supremacy and claimed stake to the dark side. Or rather a present rival, not a distant possibility, of which there could be many. And indeed as Plagueis concludes: "He would outlive any who challenged him."

Then we have the fight itself which Plagueis describes as something that could have gone on "indefinitely", forcing him to revise his tactics to off-balance his opponent, rather than overpowering him outright:Or in other words, Venamis was able to keep up with Plagueis' strength, speed and most importantly stamina. The fact that Tenebrous was able to fashion such a Force wielder to indeed replace his apprentice serving to reinforce the disparity between their power. As if Tenebrous was able to poop out an early-Plagueis tier Force user within the space of a no more than two decades while simultaneously dedicating his time to the study of maxi-chlorians, it only stands to reason that he, a full-fledged Sith Lord of infinitely greater knowledge & experience, existed in another strata of ability entirely - itself further highlighting Plagueis' own limited training, and expendability to Tenebrous as an apprentice.

The angle being got at here? If Tenebrous was some leagues above Plagueis as his master, over the course of the next thirty years during which Plagueis largely dedicated himself to the furtherance of the Grand Plan, the training of Palpatine and the study of midichlorians (the only serious noted growth in power coming as a result of his breakthrough ritual), it's highly unlikely that he was surpassed by his successor to a significant degree, and instead the gap between Tenebrous & Plagueis should be considered small.

And again, only a TOR phag denies Plagueis' rightful status as a Sith of paramount power.

#3 Early Plagueis Powerscaling

Which brings us the icing on the cake that puts a cap on this debate. Namely the power scaling that can be begotten off good Hego. So let's revise what Plagueis was capable of in the immediate years, and in some cases immediate weeks, after Tenebrous' death:

1. With only a sliver of his power, he jellied the insides of a humanoid with Force lightning and brought a Force sensitive's blood to boil to the point of nearly igniting her.Which compared to the powerful blasts of lightning unleashed by the likes of Dooku, Malgus, Krayt etc. serving only leave their targets' outsides lightly cooked, is a highly impressive display of the kind of effortless power Tenebrous' apprentice wielded.

2. Moved at such speeds as appear like lightning, speeds which a droid capable of tracking blaster bolts was left struggling to process.How fast does lightning travel? At over two-thousand miles an hour. And blaster bolts? Sub-sonic speeds in some sources, lightspeed in others. Or to frame it in other terms, Plagueis is capable of moving at velocities that are ridiculous even for a Force sensitive, and seemingly without much effort, whereas he was left struggling to keep pace with his master.

3. Causing a disturbance in the Force on Naboo with his sheer presence, triggering freak cold weather and a series of seismic events.First of all its important to understanding that this is more than just a very cold winter, its a miniature ice age. Naboo experiences a very mild climate and in places like Theed the weather appears to resemble that you'd expect to find in a Mediterranean country (real world Naboo was filmed in Italy.) Waterfalls, let alone entire rivers to not freeze in the Mediterranean (unless your in the Alps), that typically only occurs in places that experience extreme cold like Antartica, Alaska, Canada, Russia & Northern Europe - not sub-tropical countries. And then we have the ice floes, dense packs of ice even more exclusive to polar regions that someone managed to seal off the entrances to underwater oceans kept warm by the planet's magma spewing plasmic core.

The point being that though many would be willing to dismiss this as a coincidental anecdote designed solely for dramatic effect, that's simply not logical. The Thames is not going to suddenly freeze over tomorrow, or next year, in fact that only used to happen a several centuries ago, during a major global cooling period. Likewise an extreme and unnatural weather event such as this could only have occurred by during a sustained cycle of climate change, which Naboo was not in the midst of to our knowledge, leaving Plagueis' presence as the only alternative cause.

This being without mentioned the earthquakes that came with it, entirely unrelated to a temperature drop, but just happened to occur regardless. Which only further beggars believe that this could all have happened by sheer coincidence, the chances of which are simply very low.

Which leaves us with a Sith Lord capable of causing a dramatic Force disturbance that produced tangible results on a continental, if not planetary scale. This is easily beyond the capabilities of some of the most powerful Sith, and replicated only by the strongest of beings like Palpatine and the Sith Emperor. Tenebrous is a league above this, which when paired with his superiority to his master, who rent a hole in the fabric of the Force, firmly establishes him as a being of considerable cosmic prowess.

Conclusion

So let's review:

1. Banite scaling is not the only thing that supports Tenebrous, nor is it all about Bane, but nonetheless establishes him as a Force wielder of immense power, above the likes of Maul, Dooku & Vader, and far more comparable to Caedus, Revan and Krayt.

2. There is strong evidence to suggest that due to neglected training, a considerable girth existed between Plagueis and Tenebrous at the point of the latter's death, indicating a strong proximity to Plagueis in his prime. Arguably establishing Tenebrous above the aforementioned tiers.

3. Plagueis' pre-prime feats, which include one of a largely unprecedented and cosmic level, reinforced his abilities and firmly establish Tenebrous' position among the highest echelons of Sith, alongside Sidious, Valkorion and the rest.

You should also mention Ramage as a point of comparison.

Also his feat consistutes to performing several Dooku-esque feats at the same time, casually. In a novel that's far more subdued than most of the overexaggerated media like TOR or TFU.

But yeah, great thread.

You forgot to add in the fact he can shoot red Sith lightning, too.

Thanks DC.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You should also mention Ramage as a point of comparison. What did he do.

Good thread

You are still alive!

Edit:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sufficient certainly to establish him above the Maul, Dooku & even Vader tiers, who've found themselves challenged by comparable, and in some cases inferior opponents (i.e. Qui-Gon, Savage, Kenobi, Ahsoka etc.), and certainly don't massively exceed most, if any, of the aforementioned feats.

TFU Vader disagrees uhuh

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Thanks DC.

What did he do.
Jax Pavan learned some abilities from Ramage's holocron that allowed him to outmaneuver Vader at one point via time manipulation, and conjure illusions that Vader was incapable of dissipating.

Ramage is substantially more powerful than Jax (as he falls near the end of the Banite line, much more practiced with those abilities than Jax, and Jax only took a small portion of his Force knowledge so Ramage has much more than those abilities at his disposal.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And blaster bolts? Sub-sonic speeds in some sources

Faster than that Beni.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Jax Pavan learned some abilities from Ramage's holocron that allowed him to outmaneuver Vader at one point via time manipulation, and conjure illusions that Vader was incapable of dissipating.

Ramage is substantially more powerful than Jax (as he falls near the end of the Banite line, much more practiced with those abilities than Jax, and Jax only took a small portion of his Force knowledge so Ramage has much more than those abilities at his disposal. So Tenebrous is stronger than a Time Lord, noted.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
You are still alive!

Edit:

Some cases.

Good job, Beni. The people who put Tenebrous below the likes of Revan and even below are plain retarded.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Good job, Beni. The people who put Tenebrous below the likes of Revan and even below are plain retarded.
So...Ant, Deronn etc.? lol


Anyway, nice job Beni. Good read.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Good job, Beni. The people who put Tenebrous below the likes of Revan and even below are plain retarded.

Yep, you aren't the least bit bias regarding Tenebrous at all.




Anyway, I applaud Beni for being the first person to actually make a solid case for Tenebrous. Really give the bottom feeding debaters here something to latch on to.

Excellent thread Beni.

Just want to clarify though that in Gerard's to the speed feats you mentioned the droid was able to calculate the trajectory of the blaster bolts but once they're fired in a certain direction that trajectory is set while a sentient like Plagueis movies in unpredictable patterns that have to be reassessed constantly.

Also why didn't you mention Plagueis's present leaving a Darkside taint on a planet that Palpatine sensed from across the Galaxy?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Faster than that Beni.

Yeah, they're moving around hypersonic. Lightspeed is an outlier.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Just want to clarify though that in Gerard's to the speed feats

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Good job, Beni. The people who put Tenebrous below the likes of Revan and even below are plain retarded.
CaV?

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Good job, Beni. The people who put Tenebrous below the likes of Revan and even below are plain retarded.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Excellent thread Beni.

Just want to clarify though that in Gerard's to the speed feats you mentioned the droid was able to calculate the trajectory of the blaster bolts but once they're fired in a certain direction that trajectory is set while a sentient like Plagueis movies in unpredictable patterns that have to be reassessed constantly.

Also why didn't you mention Plagueis's present leaving a Darkside taint on a planet that Palpatine sensed from across the Galaxy? Fair, but he'd still have to calculate that within a fraction of a second. And yeah hypersonic my bad.

And because Palpatine only sensed that 15 years after Tenebrous' death, we can't be sure of what it was like before hand.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Deronn.

Apparently so, lmao. Though, I could honestly write up something like this for, let's say, Exar, and he'd come out more impressive than Tene here.

The only thing this proves to me is that Tenebrous is beyond Dooku and Maul.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Apparently so, lmao. Though, I could honestly write up something like this for, let's say, Exar, and he'd come out more impressive than this.

The only thing this proves to me is that Tenebrous is beyond Dooku and Maul.

I would like to see a Exar/Vader vs Tenebrous debate with you and Beni tbh

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Apparently so, lmao. Though, I could honestly write up something like this for, let's say, Exar, and he'd come out more impressive than Tene here.

The only thing this proves to me is that Tenebrous is beyond Dooku and Maul. The denial is strong in this one.

But please, AP has already tried.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I would like to see a Exar/Vader vs Tenebrous debate with you and Beni tbh

If serious, I'd straight demolish Beni in all likelihood.

Nah, his dedication would beat your skillz.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
CaV?

I don't have the sources here, right now. I'll see if/when I can fetch them and I'll return to you.

You have this thread and his respect thread, which should be sufficient.

He's only in two sources total. It's not like you have to dig through a lot.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
If serious, I'd straight demolish Beni in all likelihood. Assuming you manage to post.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
If serious, I'd straight demolish Beni in all likelihood.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Assuming you manage to post.
Already two problems lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You have this thread and his respect thread, which should be sufficient.

He's only in two sources total. It's not like you have to dig through a lot.

I prefer to have and to (re)read the sources to have the general context of the events and such and to see if something was missed from his RT.

Great thread, Beni. Tenebrous > Valkorion.

Leave it to Azronger to say something absolutely retarded.

why?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The only thing this proves to me is that Tenebrous is beyond Dooku and Maul. when you do such a good job?

Aren't you black? No wonder you're so ignorant.

You don't even know where I rank Maul and Dooku among the Sith.

You don't know where Az ranks Valkorion clue: in dirt where he belongs.

But no, I am not a dirty niggur so speak for yourself.

Not very high, if a failure like Tenebrous is higher. But he's a guy that thinks Palpatine can solo infinite Jedi/Sith, so why am I suprised.



I'm fairly certain I recall you saying otherwise. And nah, I transcend things such as race.

Good thread. Not sure if it changes anything, though, since the Tenebrous haters rely purely on bias and don't even have a standing argument for ranking him near Ventress etc. lmao

I love u tho DC

Edit: misread

I have no idea how people can think I have a vendetta against a character that has had only 1, 20 page appearance and literally zero character to speak of.

It's either bias or stupidity, take your pick.

I prefer to call it intellectual thinking - though, I wouldn't think someone with your mental capacity wouldn't understand.

Intellectual thinking to put someone thirty-something successions after Bane and the immediate predecessor to Plagueis on the same level as Ventress?

I really don't have the mental capacity to understand that, lmfao. But then again, nobody would unless they actually had rocks in their head like you

Except, I never said Tenebrous was Ventress level, lmao. At, least not seriously you pretentious prick.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Except, I never said Tenebrous was Ventress level, lmao. At, least not seriously you pretentious prick.

We like to troll on other people's trolling, lmao.

If the smiley faces didn't give it away.

Your trolling is pretty terrible, and you're still a pretentious prick.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Your trolling is pretty terrible, and you're still a pretentious prick.

Every trolling must be adapted to the general intelectual level of the public it's destined to.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Your trolling is pretty terrible, and you're still a pretentious prick.

Are you suggesting that you deserve better?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Are you suggesting that you deserve better?
Considering who I am? Obviously.

Who shall I pull up the embarrassing quotes of you conceding inferiority to me, and admitting to forging quotes? Don't make me expose you to the folks that don't know you.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Considering who I am? Obviously.

Considering who you are, you deserve less. Accept my generosity



I can pull up your mini-depression when you lost to me in that CaV, you kissing my ass, or your admission of blatant trolling on the Battles forums

So, our 5 year relationship means nothing to you?



Nah. "Depression" is such a strong word, I think "disappointed" fits the bill. I debated you under a table and was robbed, tbh.



Literally never happened. But I do recall you constantly sucking Jedi and Silver's dick until they jizzed.



Don't we all? Look, I know you're still salty I made it into the HoF before you did, but make like Elsa and let it go.

1. I have a better relationship with my toilet, unfortunately.

2. Ant told me about how hurt you were.

3. Yeah, it did. Also, you've been sucking Silver's dick ever since he spanked you in that 5 year old thread. I get lessons from you on how to do that, lmao.

4. No, your admission that trolling was your entire career for a while, lol.

And nah, there's nothing to be salty about for the HoT. Popularity isn't an indication of quality, and it can change quickly. Remember, Nixon won in a landslide once.

Anyway, we're derailing this glorious thread with shitty banter. It's time to stop.

Why am I being dragged into this?

'Cuz Nova is a liar, and a snitch.

Well, he did tell me. That's not a lie.

Anyway, you two better raise Tenebrous now.

So ur just a snitch then? Good to know.

I did, I now have him > Dooku and Maul.

https://imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3175325850.gif

lol k

EDIT: That edit of yours was dreadful, lol. Your original post was better.

https://imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/1790400411.gif

lol You edited it again to just the emoticon?

Your attempts to dismiss the Tenebrous case are getting shittier each time, lmfao.

I love how people shit on my ranking of Tenebrous, but don't bat an eye when people grossly overrated him among other things.

I guess retarded opinions is okay as long as it aligns with your shit stances.

Yeah, given how high I have Bane, I have more reason to scale Tenebrous than anyone else... but Tenebrous>Valk is cancer

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I love how people shit on my ranking of Tenebrous, but don't bat an eye when people grossly overrated him among other things.

I guess retarded opinions is okay as long as it aligns with your shit stances.

I called Az out on that on CV. Nobody else believes that, I don't think.

So raise Tenebrous on the account of others achievements and abilities while ignoring the fact that we have no evidence as to how the other Sith were deposed of?

Yeah, why don't I just say a random padawan>valk on account of CW being the Golden age of the Jedi.

False equivalency. Regardless of how the Sith were deposed of, we have more than one confirmation that each generation was more powerful than the previous; therefore, yes, it's definitely safe to assume the 28th lord is capable of a great deal more than the first. It's far and away more intellectually sturdy than trying to compare a random fledgeling Jedi to a legendary Sith based on the vague superiority of his era as a whole. (Not that the Jedi Order being in it's prime has any impact on Vitiate in the first place...?)

There's no proof there were 30 generations though, just that there were thirty Sith in the Order over a thousand years, which would include the failed apprentices.

What's your take on Tenebrous' ranking, NewGuy?

Dunno. Higher than Bane, lower than Plagueis. Probably closer to the latter than the former.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So raise Tenebrous on the account of others achievements and abilities while ignoring the fact that we have no evidence as to how the other Sith were deposed of?

Yeah, why don't I just say a random padawan>valk on account of CW being the Golden age of the Jedi.

Because of the fact that it's directly stated that each successive Banite Sith Lord was more powerful than the last? How they were disposed doesn't matter. Each Sith Lord still ended up becoming more powerful than their Master.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
There's no proof there were 30 generations though, just that there were thirty Sith in the Order over a thousand years, which would include the failed apprentices.

I'm pretty sure he refers to the actual Sith Lords, not failed apprentices? I'll check.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm pretty sure he refers to the actual Sith Lords, not failed apprentices? I'll check.
He's talking about Sith in the Order, no specification is made to them being masters.

Yeah, but I'm not sure failed apprentices who didn't contribute to the plan qualify to him as members of the Order. Especially considering how Plagueis goes on immediately thereafter to say that it's one of the duties of Bane's lineage to take out the trash and eliminate "Sith pretenders."

Either way, from the cases we've seen, 30 is a fairly reasonable number. That would mean each Sith would have reigned for what, 33-ish years after killing their masters before being killed by their apprentices? That's a fair bit longer than Bane lived after killing his, although he was lucky enough to find his apprentice pretty shortly afterward.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, but I'm not sure failed apprentices who didn't contribute to the plan qualify to him as members of the Order.
And Zannah didn't do anything to contribute to or advance the Grand Plan before her overthrowing Bane? Sidious didn't contribute to the Grand Plan before overthrowing Plagueis? Maul, Dooku, and Vader didn't contribute at all to the Grand Plan?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Especially considering how Plagueis goes on immediately thereafter to say that it's one of the duties of Bane's lineage to take out the trash and eliminate "Sith pretenders."
There's a difference between Sith pretenders who are acting separately from the Banite Order and a Sith Lord who trained under a master, helped them advance the grand plan, then lost the final duel with their master.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Either way, from the cases we've seen, 30 is a fairly reasonable number. That would mean each Sith would have reigned for what, 33-ish years after killing their masters before being killed by their apprentices? That's a fair bit longer than Bane lived after killing his, although he was lucky enough to find his apprentice pretty shortly afterward.
Going off of the assumption that no master ever had to train a second apprentice because their first failed.

Plagueis is speaking of Zannah from a thousand years after the fact, by which time she's cemented her contribution to the Banite Order by killing Bane and carrying on the lineage. He's currently teaching Sidious, so obviously he wouldn't be counted, and Maul/Tyranus/Vader didn't exist as Sith at the time. Not very good examples, tbh.

And they all contributed to the Grand Plan. Not sure what you're talking about.

The point I'm making is that a Sith apprentice doesn't not contribute to the Grand Plan or count as a member of the Order until they overthrow their master.

That made no sense. You used two negatives back to back, lol. Could you rephrase it?

Anyway, at best, you could argue that it's ambiguous what Plagueis is referring to.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That made no sense. You used two negatives back to back, lol. Could you rephrase it?

Anyway, at best, you could argue that it's ambiguous what Plagueis is referring to.
Yes, one does not have to be a Sith master to count as a member of the Sith Order or contribute to the Grand Plan.

Zannah, Sidious, Maul, and Dooku all carried out tasks as apprentices that advanced the Grand Plan.

A person is not only given the Sith title or considered a member of the Order once they kill their master.

Plagueis is talking about people who have been Sith in Bane's order in the past millenium, and that isn't a statement that excludes a subset of people that were a part of the Order and were in fact Sith.

I don't see why it's such an outlandish concept for some. Plagueis > Valkorion is accepted by many here, so that shouldn't raise any eyebrows. But then, when the gap between Tenebrous and prime Plagueis is very small (or at least the evidence points to that), people still laugh at the notion of Tenebrous > Valkorion. Why?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Going off of the assumption that no master ever had to train a second apprentice because their first failed.

Not really; Bane's reign only lasted twenty years, and it being even that long can be attributed to the fact that his apprentice essentially sat on her thumbs for a long while. It'd still be perfectly reasonable for the average reign to be in the ballpark of thirty to thirty five years, even if we assume a few of the masters went through a couple failures.

Either way, it's not a big deal. We could go back and forth all day on the various unknowable factors that could affect the exact number of Lords during the 1000-year timeskip between DBT and Plagueis, and my point wouldn't change. Tenebrous and Bane would still be separated by many generations of Sith, each more powerful than the last.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So raise Tenebrous on the account of others achievements and abilities while ignoring the fact that we have no evidence as to how the other Sith were deposed of?

Yeah, why don't I just say a random padawan>valk on account of CW being the Golden age of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes, one does not have to be a Sith master to count as a member of the Sith Order or contribute to the Grand Plan.

Zannah, Sidious, Maul, and Dooku all carried out tasks as apprentices that advanced the Grand Plan.

A person is not only given the Sith title or considered a member of the Order once they kill their master.

Plagueis is talking about people who have been Sith in Bane's order in the past millenium, and that isn't a statement that excludes a subset of people that were a part of the Order and were in fact Sith.

Given that Plagueis is looking at them retroactively, it's entirely possible that he's disregarding outcasts etc.

Although in fairness, he does mention that thousands are "fit to be Jedi" in the next phrase, so he could be referring to anyone bestowed with the title of "Sith".

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
So, our 5 year relationship means nothing to you?
It's kinda obvious that I ship you lmao.

alright, so plo koon>cave>tenebrous>valk>revan

The individual caverns in the mine on Bal'demnic were the size of cathedrals, lmao. That cavern that Plo collapsed wasn't anything comparable.

Besides, the cave needed Plagueis' help to defeat almighty Tenebrous.

Originally posted by Azronger
I don't see why it's such an outlandish concept for some. Plagueis > Valkorion is accepted by many here, so that shouldn't raise any eyebrows. But then, when the gap between Tenebrous and prime Plagueis is very small (or at least the evidence points to that), people still laugh at the notion of Tenebrous > Valkorion. Why?

lmao.

I'll debate you on the forum regarding novel Vitiate vs Tenebrous alone.

He won't.

Phuck you.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
lmao.

I'll debate you on the forum regarding novel Vitiate vs Tenebrous alone.

Sure, I'm up for it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01


Besides, the cave needed Plagueis' help to defeat almighty Tenebrous.
so tenebrous got beat by plagueis. As az has shown, plagueis is fisto level blitz fodder. Plo koon beat ventress who beat fisto, I think koon being able to blitz plagueis is pretty undeniable

Rocky tries too hard to troll and comes off as pure cringe.

He learned that from me
Or Carthage.
Or anyone here, except for Zenwolf, really.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
He learned that from me

Explains why he's the most try hard, unfunny troll I've ever seen.

Damn. He's better than I am?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Rocky tries too hard to troll and comes off as pure cringe.
At least I'm trolling, you genuinely believe the bs you spew

Debate me on my so called "BS" then, so we can all witness your annihilation.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Debate me on my so called "BS" then, so we can all witness your annihilation.
thinking valk's a near equal of sidious is a good place to start

Again, no one cares what an utterly incompetent troll has to say.

Taking shots means little, when your skills are inferior by light years.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Again, no one cares what an utterly incompetent troll has to say.

Taking shots means little, when your skills are inferior by light years.
Clearly you do

Nah, I just like telling others about my superior skills.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah, I just like telling to others about my superior skills.
cocky nerfherdin feck

Don't think anyone would like me if I wasn't.


But nah, I'm only this way in front of a lot of people. I'm very nice in PM's and such, ask Wollf.

Pff.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
But nah, I'm only this way in front of a lot of people. I'm very nice in PM's and such, ask Wollf.

It's a lie!

JK, he's actually rather enjoyable to talk to when you get past the bravado.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Pff.
When I asked one of my good friends on CV to describe me in 16 word sentence, she had this to say:

" Articulate, intelligent, good looking guy, who is welcoming and kind, and has a great music taste."

You're just salty I'm never nice to you.

Deronn is rather nice, yeah.
But he doesn't recognizes the power and the might of our lord and savior Tenebrous

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
When I asked one of my good friends on CV to describe me in 16 word sentence, she had this to say:

" Articulate, intelligent, good looking guy, who is welcoming and kind, and has a great music taste."

You're just salty I'm never nice to you.

Trust me, I'm not salty that I'm spared your dreadful graces.

You and I both know that isn't true.

Bumping this thread to share my revised thoughts on the identity of the being described here:
Namely I'd like to propose that it was not in fact Venamis but Sidious whom Plagueis was sensing, and what that means for Tenebrous (hint: it's better.)

This being something I picked up while in the process of compiling a new, updated respect thread for Plagueis (stay tuned darlings ), namely that contrary to what's been believed, Palpatine did feel something similar when the title of "sole Sith Lord" was conferred to him:
Logically, the only being this could really be is Anakin. No other being in the galaxy possesses greater power than him, bar perhaps Yoda or the Ones. Neither of which are at all thematically relevant to the story. Anakin is, and fundamentally. The final line could also well be an extended metaphor of the "dark before the dawn" notion that Plagueis uses in premonition of Anakin's rise earlier in the text.

Why is this important? Because Anakin's presence was concealed in the Force:
Eliminating the idea that Plagueis couldn't have being sensed Palpatine because he too failed to perceive his power in person. Instead it would appear this brief state of "apotheosis" offers a unique moment clarity.

What makes it a likelihood however if not a definite is the fact that after defeating Venamis, Plagueis remarks that though possessing a high midi-chlorian count, his opponent remained "inept" by his standards:
Referred to again here:And though Plagueis is being a bit snobbish here he's nonetheless making an empirical assessment. One he'd be highly unlikely to make had Venamis' abilities truly rivalled his own. And in terms of whose potential is likely more a "near-equal" to Plagueis, it's obviously Sheev.

There are textual parallels here too, both Plagueis and Palpatine suspect they may be feeling the presence of their deceased masters, but were arguably in fact both sensing the agent of their ultimate demise, it is, in a word, a premonition of their downfall, putting a suitable dampener on a moment of triumph.

---------------------------

So what does this mean for Tenebrous, you ask?

Well for starters, it means that Plagueis as of Tenebrous' death is around as powerful as as base-Palpatine is strong in the Force, by which I mean before the ritual plus the gravitic shift triggered by Plagueis own death reshaped his connection to the Force.

Tenebrous as it's been proven (and remains proven regardless of whether or not Venamis was being referred to) was significantly more powerful than his apprentice immediately prior to his death. We know that Plagueis got stronger after becoming the sole Sith Lord, but the fact he only notes this afterwards suggests it wasn't particularly profound, logically not enough to make him stronger than his master (especially given he was challenged by Venamis), and by association, Tenebrous would remain stronger than Palpatine as well.

Naturally the argument can be made that resultant of the ritual, Sidious surpassed Tenebrous. But given that Palpatine had yet to even fully realise his base potential (just a decade earlier his master's power remained beyond his comprehension), let alone through the ritual eclipse it, such an argument would bear little weight. Instead Tenebrous should be nebulously close to Sidious up until the point he surpasses Plagueis, and becomes factually the most powerful. Which I feel solidifies his standing much more so than Venamis did.

That is a decent analysis. Darth Tenebrous should be (logically) one of the most powerful Sith in galactic history. No need for a lengthy essay to acknowledge this.

However, I get the impression that the Bannite Sith weren't necessarily one-upping each other in raw strength. They were one-upping each other with innate talents and specialties.

Darth Venamis, for example, is noted to have the potential to do well in the era of Darth Bane but same is true for a large number of powerful Sith. Also, whether Darth Venamis would be able to challenge Darth Bane himself in a fight (or not), is a matter of debate.

In short, one must be careful with straightforward power-scaling. Nothing is that black and white in Star Wars.

I find it extremely difficult to power-scale characters of TOR timeline as well. A simple reason is that some TOR era characters have fantastic showings at individual capacity but failed to tackle an opponent in a fight who doesn't have feats on their level otherwise.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That is a decent analysis.Ur mum is decent, my analysis is transcendent.

You'd be surprised by what's needed.

Orly? I don't, personally.

"Darth" Venamis was not a full-fledged Sith Lord, nor in fact a Darth at all. And Plagueis was referring to his attitude, not his abilities, when he made that assessment. Altogether not sure what relevance this has to supporting your "impression."

On the other hand, the straightforward intepretation tends to be the correct one, in my experience.

I approach with the general assumption that TOR characters and shit, then work from there. You should try it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ur mum is decent, my analysis is transcendent.

You'd be surprised by what's needed.

Orly? I don't, personally.

"Darth" Venamis was not a full-fledged Sith Lord, nor in fact a Darth at all. And Plagueis was referring to his attitude, not his abilities, when he made that assessment. Altogether not sure what relevance this has to supporting your "impression."

On the other hand, the straightforward intepretation tends to be the correct one, in my experience.

I approach with the general assumption that TOR characters and shit, then work from there. You should try it.
I am not sure what my mom has anything to do with this? Keep it civil.

Let us take a look at the first 3 examples of Bannite Sith.

Darth Bane - specialized in light saber combat
Darth Zannah - specialized in Sith Sorcery
Darth Cognus - specialized in Force suppression

Darth Zannah didn't had more raw power than Darth Bane. She defeated him in a setting where she could bring her Sith Sorcery talent to bear against him. So this wasn't a straightforward victory for her. Not sure how Darth Cognus got the better of Darth Zannah.

We also know how Palpatine bested Darth Plagueis; it wasn't a fair contest. Heck, we also know how Darth Tenebrous fell. That wasn't a fair fight either. In both cases, trickery and/or cheating came into play.

Get my point now?

Therefore, straightforward interpretations and generalizations do not cut it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure what my mom has anything to do with this? Keep it civil.

None of these abilities are intrinsically "better" that the other, so that only disproves this idea of one up-manship.

And Bane believed Zannah had the potential to surpass him, given her proximity to him in DoE, it's only logical that she did.

No not really, besting your master in fair combat doesn't preclude you being more powerful in the long run, and indeed, both Plagueis and Palpatine did. On the other hand, multiple sources attest to the Banite line producing more powerful Sith with each generation, so it seems fairly clear cut.

That's an... interesting way to look at it, Beni.

It's the right way.

Interesting new thoughts, Beni. One problem with Plagueis and Sidious' senses during their "apotheosis", which can of course be fairly said to grant them a brief moment of extreme clairvoyance. However, Sidious failed to sense the Force in Anakin prior to his apotheosis, whereas he was able to sense the Force in Anakin in person afterwards. Whereas Plagueis failed to sense the Force in Sidious after his ascension to Dark Lord.

He did? I assume this happens in another text as this happens at the end of the novel. mmm

Threads like this are why I still exist, here. Great post, great arguments, Beni.

Thx.

did Beni take a W here?