Azronger's musings

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S_W_LeGenD
For your enjoyment: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sidious-vs-naga-sadow-freedon-nadd-revan-nihilus-v-1853336/#js-message-43

This is really epic:

cs_zoltan
Still makes more sense than you.

Ursumeles
That one is better:
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
50/50 (I personally rank HoT on par with FOTJ Luke)

HoT had Jedi Master level abilities when he just a padawan. One can only imagine how powerful he would have been at his prime.

Orgus Din had Count Dooku level Force abilities but got punked by Bengel Morr, who in turn got punked by HoT. And these events happened much earlier in HoT's story arc.

Also, Luke's ABH manipulation feat (while extremely impressive) isn't valid for his combat prowess because that is a feat of full concentration without emphasis upon complex matters such as combat. It just shows that how deep Luke was attuned with the Force due to his extraordinary Midichlorian count.

Deronn_solo
Yeah, he has some downright mentally retarded opinions, but pulling a Syn and making an entire thread about it is, a bit, I dunno, classless.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Still makes more sense than you.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, he has some downright mentally retarded opinions, but pulling a Syn and making an entire thread about it is, a bit, I dunno, classless.

God damn! DC throwing shade like the ES building

Deronn_solo
Az is aware of my opinion on his debating skills.

I do respect the way he presents and articulates his arguments, and I do consider him a good debater -- but holy shit, does he make some of the most outlandish claims ever.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Az is aware of my opinion on his debating skills.

I do respect the way he presents and articulates his arguments, and I do consider him a good debater -- but holy shit, does he make some of the most outlandish claims ever.

I was mostly referring to savagely flame grilling Syn lol

Deronn_solo
Ooooh, lal.

It's kinda his shtick, that DMB diss thread was one of the greatest threads I ever read here.

TenebrousWay

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Ooooh, lal.

It's kinda his shtick, that DMB diss thread was one of the greatest threads I ever read here.
Link? smile

Beniboybling
Yeah it's remarkable how despite it all, Legend has still said worse. smile

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Link? smile

The thread's been deleted sad

MythLord
Az would mop the floor with LeG, yeah.

Petrus
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For your enjoyment: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sidious-vs-naga-sadow-freedon-nadd-revan-nihilus-v-1853336/#js-message-43

This is really epic:

Before attempting to humiliate him, did you realize that this opinion is actually accepted by most people on this forum...?

Ursumeles
Except the "RotJ Sidious is 1000 times as powerful as RotS Sidious", yeah, lmao.

Beniboybling
Yup, he sort of dropped the ball there.

Emperordmb
He didn't drop the ball, he smashed it into the ground so hard it's fragments reached the center of the Earth lmfao

Petrus
I don't understand why he thought it was going to be 'epic' for us and that we were going to 'laugh' at Azronger when it's pretty much established that most people here disagree with LeG, lol.

MythLord
I feel like Az was being hyperbolic when he said Sidious as of RotJ is worth a thousand RotS Sheev's -- it's what he does. He obviously means the gap is substantial and by all accounts it should be, yes.

Ursumeles
I know. It's just how large the gap is, where most don't agree with him.

Azronger
Lol.

DarthAnt66
The gap between RotJ and RotS isn't even approaching 2x, rofl.

TenebrousWay
We all know that Orgus Din = Dooku. That is what matters.

Azronger
Regarding the "thousands of times", it's mainly in reference to this:

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

So when Palpatine first began colonising Byss, there were only several million inhabitants. Palpatine started to leech off of them as early as a few months after RotS:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4221875-3643360187-19943.jpg

So RotS Palpatine's best mental domination and drain feat in terms of sheer numbers is in the millions. But as you read from the above quote, Byss' population eventually reached 20 billion, which is easily over a thousand times more than it was when Palpatine first began his domination and draining. And as we know, Palpatine never stopped, so he would've still been dominating and draining them as of RotJ.

The numbers and mathematics do not lie: Palpatine's mental domination and Force drain capabilities increased thousandfold in the years between RotS and RotJ.

DarthAnt66
-

Beniboybling
Sorry, but that's terrible logic. erm

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Azronger
Regarding the "thousands of times", it's mainly in reference to this:

Years ago, Emperor Palpatine chose Byss as his private retreat, and Imperial architects and engineers were commissioned to build him an opulent palace. Several million humans were allowed to emigrate to the world, where the Emperor and his adepts used the dark side to feed off their life energies. The planet's population eventually reached almost 20 billion, and all outgoing communications were censored by security agents.

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

So when Palpatine first began colonising Byss, there were only several million inhabitants. Palpatine started to leech off of them as early as a few months after RotS:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4221875-3643360187-19943.jpg

So RotS Palpatine's best mental domination and drain feat in terms of sheer numbers is in the millions. But as you read from the above quote, Byss' population eventually reached 20 billion, which is easily over a thousand times more than it was when Palpatine first began his domination and draining. And as we know, Palpatine never stopped, so he would've still been dominating and draining them as of RotJ.

The numbers and mathematics do not lie: Palpatine's mental domination and Force drain capabilities increased thousandfold in the years between RotS and RotJ.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/b9b728390261c427c4a4f7fd89fe2923/tumblr_mlcmdu6yhY1qaen0zo1_500.gif

MythLord
@Az That doesn't mean he improved a thousand-fold, unless just draining a few million pushed him to his limits, which is never indicated.

That's like saying Dooku as of AotC threw two small objects easily, but as of RotS he manipulated a hundred times larger object easily so he's obviously a hundred times more powerful.

Azronger
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sorry, but that's terrible logic. erm

How so?

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
@Az That doesn't mean he improved a thousand-fold, unless just draining the 20 million pushed him to his limits, which is never indicated.

That's like saying Dooku as of AotC threw two small objects easily, but as of RotS he manipulated a hundred times larger object easily so he's obviously a hundred times more powerful.

Draining 20 billion never pushed Palpatine to his limits either. And where is the evidence that Palpatine even could drain 20 billion as early as RotS?

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Draining 20 billion never pushed Palpatine to his limits either.

Obviously, but that doesn't help your case, since Sidious' limits is then unclear.

Originally posted by Azronger
And where is the evidence that Palpatine even could drain 20 billion as early as RotS?

Nowhere. But that doesn't mean he can't, since suckling on millions absolutely required no effort on his part.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
For your enjoyment: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/sidious-vs-naga-sadow-freedon-nadd-revan-nihilus-v-1853336/#js-message-43

This is really epic:

Finish your Vaylin thread.

Deronn_solo
thumb up

Deronn_solo
To be clear, I don't really have a problem with LeG, tbh. I find it to be literally retarded to dislike someone over fictional opinions.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
How so? Because it's a blatant appeal to ignorance, as Myth pointed out, you can't assume Palpatine couldn't drain a 20 billion pop as of RotS simply because he didn't.

Besides that? Over the course of decades of training under Plagueis his powers increased only "tenfold", so it's not only unproven, but as absurd as it sounds that Palpatine's powers would increase a thousand fold over his largely uneventful twenty-year rein as Emperor.

Azronger
Myth, your Dooku example is quite terrible, because, as of AotC, we know Dooku can throw bigger objects than, for example, speeder bikes, from his feats prior to AotC, and his standing next to other powerful beings.

But what you are basically suggesting here is that Bob - who when he was a Padawan, could easily manipulate 10 ton objects - could manipulate 1000 ton objects as a Padawan, simply because he would go on to do so decades after his Padawan days, when he is a Jedi Master.

Sorry, but I need more evidence than "unclear limits" if I'm going to accept the notion that a certain character is capable of something.

---

And Beni, it makes perfect sense, that Palpatine would grow thousandfold, if you are familiar with the effects of Force Drain, which is what Palpatine did non-stop for decades. His growth was not natural, like it was during his apprenticeship under Plagueis.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Myth, your Dooku example is quite terrible, because, as of AotC, we know Dooku can throw bigger objects than, for example, speeder bikes, from his feats prior to AotC, and his standing next to other powerful beings.

And Sidious' standing next to his RotJ self, holistically speaking, shouldn't be equalling him being thousands of times inferior.

Originally posted by Azronger
But what you are basically suggesting here is that Bob - who when he was a Padawan, could easily manipulate 10 ton objects - could manipulate 1000 ton objects as a Padawan, simply because he would go on to do so decades after his Padawan days, when he is a Jedi Master.

No, that's what you're saying. For all we know, Bob could have grown a hundred fold from his padawan days to his Master days, but if he hasn't shown anything on that level via feats nor does his powerscaling quantify that: we cannot say for sure.

Much like that, we don't know if Sidious as of RotS has the ability to Drain 20 million people, or not. I think it's safe to assume he can, but regardless without knowing properly you're left with an appeal to ignorance.

Originally posted by Azronger
Sorry, but I need more evidence than "unclear limits" if I'm going to accept the notion that a certain character is capable of something.

But without a proper limit, you cannot assume he can grow a thousand-fold. That makes no fvucking.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Azronger
Myth, your Dooku example is quite terrible, because, as of AotC, we know Dooku can throw bigger objects than, for example, speeder bikes, from his feats prior to AotC, and his standing next to other powerful beings.

But what you are basically suggesting here is that Bob - who when he was a Padawan, could easily manipulate 10 ton objects - could manipulate 1000 ton objects as a Padawan, simply because he would go on to do so decades after his Padawan days, when he is a Jedi Master.

Sorry, but I need more evidence than "unclear limits" if I'm going to accept the notion that a certain character is capable of something.

---

And Beni, it makes perfect sense, that Palpatine would grow thousandfold, if you are familiar with the effects of Force Drain, which is what Palpatine did non-stop for decades. His growth was not natural, like it was during his apprenticeship under Plagueis.
Stop... just stop.

Next you'll be arguing Sidious>the Ones kek

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Azronger
Myth, your Dooku example is quite terrible, because, as of AotC, we know Dooku can throw bigger objects than, for example, speeder bikes, from his feats prior to AotC, and his standing next to other powerful beings.

But what you are basically suggesting here is that Bob - who when he was a Padawan, could easily manipulate 10 ton objects - could manipulate 1000 ton objects as a Padawan, simply because he would go on to do so decades after his Padawan days, when he is a Jedi Master.

Sorry, but I need more evidence than "unclear limits" if I'm going to accept the notion that a certain character is capable of something.

---

And Beni, it makes perfect sense, that Palpatine would grow thousandfold, if you are familiar with the effects of Force Drain, which is what Palpatine did non-stop for decades. His growth was not natural, like it was during his apprenticeship under Plagueis. You're shifting the burden of proof, it isn't us to provide evidence that Sidious can do this, rather you need to prove your claim that he can't. In which respect appealing to an absence of evidence isn't sufficient.

EDIT: Yeah Myth summed it up well.

And nah, there exists no precedent for any Force user growing a thousand fold, even if we accept that logic.

Rockydonovang
valk being gm luke level is more enjoyable honestly

Emperordmb
No. Valk being GM Luke level makes a whole hell of a lot more sense than "DE Sidious>>ROTJ Sidious, whose a thousand times stronger than ROTS Sidious, who can blitz Darth Plagueis, whose above Tenebrous, whose above Vitiate."

Rockydonovang
Why would sidious go from improving ten fold throughout his appretencship with plagueis to suddenly being able to improve a thousand fold?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Emperordmb
No. Valk being GM Luke level makes a whole hell of a lot more sense than "DE Sidious>>ROTJ Sidious, whose a thousand times stronger than ROTS Sidious, who can blitz Darth Plagueis, whose above Tenebrous, whose above Vitiate."
Yea alright, it is, but making a thread about someone's opinion is still classless, especially when you have a track record of saying stupid stuff(if not as stupid)

Azronger
Well, Myth and Beni, none of us can prove whether RotS Sidious could or couldn't have done dominated 20 billion, so I guess an agreement to disagree is all we can do at this point. Personally, I definitely think Sidious can dominate far more than several million as of RotS, but 20 billion? I wouldn't go that far without more concrete evidence.

As for Force users growing thousandfold, Naga Sadow's meditation sphere comes to mind, although the quote could be interpreted as hyperbole.

But regardless, there doesn't need to be a precedent for a Force user growing thousandfold, since there's not a precedent for a Force user draining a planetary population for decades non-stop, either. We don't know how powerful one would grow as a result, so you cannot dismiss the possibility based on an appeal to incredulity.

---

Anyway, I'd just like to thank you for defending me in this thread (and everyone else, too!). Appreciate it smile

MythLord
The possibility, sadly, makes no sense. You can argue Sheev is not capable of draining 20 billion as of RotS and that's fine. As we know he's certainly considerably more powerful by RotJ. But by a thousandfold is really stretching it.

Also, Naga Sadow's amp was not permament and it is hyperbole. Regardless, feeding off of a population of utter fodder, no matter the quantity, is hardly going to give Sidious a thousand-fold boost. And no EU writer would actually consider that. And it's him just draining a bunch of useless fodder. Also, unless I'm mistaken, Force Draining in-of-itself is not a permament amp.

Azronger
Originally posted by MythLord
The possibility, sadly, makes no sense. You can argue Sheev is not capable of draining 20 billion as of RotS and that's fine. As we know he's certainly considerably more powerful by RotJ. But by a thousandfold is really stretching it.

Makes no sense according to whom? You? I am sorry to inform you but you are not an authority on these matters. Unless you can definitively and conclusively prove that I am wrong without appealing to incredulity, then we should just agree to disagree on this.



I know it's only temporary. My point was that there have been thousandfold increases before, although, as I said, you can dismiss it as hyperbole.



Again, according to whom? We don't know how much power that would give him, since there's no other instances to reference. You're just appealing to your gut feeling at this point.

And I don't really give a damn about what the writers think. Anyone can interpret the text however they like. Simply because I writer hadn't thought of something doesn't invalidate my interpretation.

Force Drain is permanent. Unless you're like Nihilus, that energy isn't going to disappear randomly.

Beniboybling
The idea that draining Byss significantly increased Palpatine's power is an interesting one, but a thousand fold remains a baseless figure as far as I'm concerned.

MythLord
Originally posted by Azronger
Makes no sense according to whom? You? I am sorry to inform you but you are not an authority on these matters. Unless you can definitively and conclusively prove that I am wrong without appealing to incredulity, then we should just agree to disagree on this.

I am well aware I am no authority, but neither are you and yet you're pulling a thousand-fold baselessly out of your ass when literally no evidence backs this up? Quite the contrary, Sidious' established limits as of DE don't place him even a dozen times more powerful than RotS Sidious, yet you'd have people believe RotJ Sidious is a thousand times more powerful based on him draining more people?

Originally posted by Azronger
Again, according to whom? We don't know how much power that would give him, since there's no other instances to reference. You're just appealing to your gut feeling at this point.

We know Draining a bunch of non Force sensitives in-of-itself is a very poor power boost. And Sidious isn't really doing heavy draining -- he does not kill them, simply siphons off of them which is a much smaller power boost to the already microscoping one. On top of that his Dark Side adepts are feeding off the population of Byss simultaneously and there's the Dark Side Nexus which also feeds off the population.

So there's several beings and one of the most potent nexuses in the galaxy slowly absobring the life of billions of utter fodder alongside Sidious. And the absorption itself does not kill the residents as usually Drain does. Therefore, a Force Drain amp from Byss would hardly be making RotJ Sidious a thousand times more powerful than RotS Sidious.

Originally posted by Azronger
And I don't really give a damn about what the writers think. Anyone can interpret the text however they like. Simply because I writer hadn't thought of something doesn't invalidate my interpretation.

Not quite what I was going for. My point was no decent writer would go Dragon Ball Z and make Sidious a multi-Solar System buster 'cause he can Drain a lot of people.

Originally posted by Azronger
Force Drain is permanent. Unless you're like Nihilus, that energy isn't going to disappear randomly.

Really? Got proof that Drain is permanent?

Petrus
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I find it to be literally retarded to dislike someone over fictional opinions.

https://media.giphy.com/media/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/giphy.gif

NewGuy01
Az is almost as bad as the DBZ fanboys. If Palpatine's power doubled, he'd be par with the most powerful beings in the mythos per Lucas; saying his power increased a thousandfold by DE is beyond lolworthy.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
To be clear, I don't really have a problem with LeG, tbh. I find it to be literally retarded to dislike someone over fictional opinions. Same, I dislike him because he's a climate change denying homophobe. smile

Petrus
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Same, I dislike him because he's a climate change denying homophobe. smile

What? He's really said those things?

Azronger
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Az is almost as bad as the DBZ fanboys. If Palpatine's power doubled, he'd be par with the most powerful beings in the mythos per Lucas; saying his power increased a thousandfold by DE is beyond lolworthy.

I'm not even close to being as bad, lmao.

And Lucas has no authority over Legends, and his statement has been outdated ever since the Mortis arc. If we go by your logic, that Palpatine is half of Anakin, then he is on par with the Son, which is not true. The Son is at least a tier above DE Sidious.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by Petrus
What? He's really those things? http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=638559

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Petrus
What? He's really those things? http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15274644#post15274644

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=638559

yes

Beniboybling
He's also a bit of an asshat when he gets mad. thumb up

Petrus
Yeah, okay. LeG's an idiot.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Az is aware of my opinion on his debating skills.

I do respect the way he presents and articulates his arguments, and I do consider him a good debater -- but holy shit, does he make some of the most outlandish claims ever.

Raptor22
If you've been here long enough, you're bound to say some stupid shit at some point along the way. Myself included. No need to make a thread about it and single someone out.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Still makes more sense than you.
Every time you open your (F) mouth, you insult mankind with your judgement and IQ.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
That one is better:
Did you bother to check the date of that response?

That was my opinion before HoT was nerfed. Before Revan was tossing the galaxy's finest around in a fight.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yeah, he has some downright mentally retarded opinions, but pulling a Syn and making an entire thread about it is, a bit, I dunno, classless.
This thread is not intended to make fun of Azronger. I wanted people to take notice of where he is heading with his take on things recently.

That is the level of retardedness you expect from PT/OT fans when few are willing to talk sense with them.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
Az would mop the floor with LeG, yeah.
laughing out loud

Beniboybling
Leg is #triggered.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you bother to check the date of that response?

That was my opinion before HoT was nerfed. Before Revan was tossing the galaxy's finest around in a fight. I know.
Tho you still have as ridiculous claims.

Also, you know that Az is extreme?
Most PT/OT fans disagree with him.
Just look at this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=638900

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
I know.
Tho you still have as ridiculous claims.
Then why cite it?

I wouldn't cite a quote of yours that I know you no longer entertain, if I was in your shoes. Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to justify the retardedness of your friend. Difference is that Azronger's remarks are recent.

Such as? Please give a recent example.

AncientPower
You'd have to be incredibly ignorant or have selective memory to take a novel blurb such as that at face value. I mean Valkorion completely defecates on Plagueis in feats, causing a sun to go through an actual change in power as a side effect of his massive Force powers is insane.

We have Charles Boyd stating that Valkorion is capable of bringing the Force back to Nathema too.

Guy is literally ****ing around with physics and the living Force at will.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Then why cite it? I wouldn't cite a quote of yours that I know you no longer entertain, if I were you. Sounds like you are looking for a pretext to justify the retardedness of your friend.

Such as?
Do you still agree with Valk > the Ones, Thanaton among the Top 10 Sith, Arcann ~ Plagueis, Vaylin > Plagueis etc.?
If so, these.

Edit: To your edit, I don't remember much what you said in last time tbh.
Also, making a whole thread for that is just silly, tbh. I used yours as a extreme example.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Do you still agree with Valk > the Ones, Thanaton among the Top 10 Sith, Arcann ~ Plagueis, Vaylin > Plagueis etc.?
If so, these.
And none of that compares with the retardedness Azronger has shown in that thread alone. ROTJ Palpatine thousands of times stronger than RoTS Palpatine? Absolutely.

The Ones are difficult to quantify. If the Father's remarks are to be taken at face value, The Ones are above all. However, if Abeloth's showings are to be considered, then their is an actual room for debate in this matter vis-a-vis Valkorion. Still, I am willing to entertain the notion that the Father, at his prime, was above all.

Darth Thanaton is officially one of the most powerful Sith in history. It took Darth Nox with significant Ghost amp to defeat him. I am not sure about top 10 but you don't see the need of that much amp to defeat a mortal foe even in rare cases. I am not sure why this is still an argument.

Not sure where to rank Arcann but I put him above Darth Vader.

Vaylin might have superior raw power than Darth Plagueis and her showings are not any less. How is this even a retarded notion?

AncientPower
Legend, I like how you still don't acknowledge that Valkorion's extreme displays of powers have effected two suns.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
Legend, I like how you still don't acknowledge that Valkorion's extreme displays of powers have effected two suns.
Enlighten me.

Also, PM me all the details absent in the respect thread.

AncientPower
You've got the gifs, look at them, lol.

The sun changes from a bright blue to a weaker yellow, in other words, two different stages of a star's lifetime.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by AncientPower
You've got the gifs, look at them, lol.

The sun changes from a bright blue to a weaker yellow, in other words, two different stages of a star's lifetime.
Oh that.

I am not sure if Valkorion actually affected the Sun like that. I get the impression that the waves of dark side energy radiating from the planetary surface distorted the view of the Sun from that angle.

You also mentioned that Valkorion could restore the Force on Nathema. Now this is really epic.

I believe that we have not seen it all from Valkorion. He likely packed many surprises and shockers. But the official story had to end at some point. And their isn't much point in featuring Valkorion in comics and novels to showcase more of his abilities since SWTOR is not canon.

AncientPower
The image is far too wide out and would have had the same effect on the station and surrounding moons. Furthermore other images of Nathema make it clear that the sun there also suffered the same effect. Ziost's sun went from a Class-O Sun to a Class G, which is a massive reduction in power output.

Go and watch his KOTET video with Eric Musco, Charles muses that Valkorion himself may have changed Nathema to allow the effects of the planet to be less extreme, reintroducing the Force in a manner.

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
You'd have to be incredibly ignorant or have selective memory to take a novel blurb such as that at face value. I mean Valkorion completely defecates on Plagueis in feats, causing a sun to go through an actual change in power as a side effect of his massive Force powers is insane.

We have Charles Boyd stating that Valkorion is capable of bringing the Force back to Nathema too.

Guy is literally ****ing around with physics and the living Force at will.

Quote for the sun thing?

Also, Charlie can have his own opinion on what's what -- if it isn't confirmed in any source(whether it be a feat, accolade or statement) it isn't canon.

AncientPower
There is no quote, its an observation of the suns of Ziost and Nathema. Ziost's sun was a blue hypergiant (Class O) but degrades to a mere Sun (Class M). Nor could it be a mere effect of color dilution, as such an effect would only be perceivable from within the atmosphere.

Charles Boyd is SWTOR's lead writer, his statements are just as valid as any author's.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by AncientPower
You'd have to be incredibly ignorant or have selective memory to take a novel blurb such as that at face value. I mean Valkorion completely defecates on Plagueis in feats, causing a sun to go through an actual change in power as a side effect of his massive Force powers is insane.

We have Charles Boyd stating that Valkorion is capable of bringing the Force back to Nathema too.

Guy is literally ****ing around with physics and the living Force at will. Kek.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by AncientPower

Charles Boyd is SWTOR's lead writer, his statements are just as valid as any author's.
So not at all thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
@AncientPower

Can you get in-touch with Charles Boyd?

Beniboybling
It hardly matters anyway, Plagueis and even his predecessors were capable of manipulating the Force profoundly on a cosmic/galactic scale, doing so for a planet would be child's play. As for this sun feat? It begs the question of why no one on the space station or any of the nearby moons were effected, so perhaps no. smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kek.
Valkorion does put Darth Plagueis to shame in the aspect of quantifiable showings.

That blurb is a cheap attempt from a publisher to one-up Darth Plagueis rather then an actual effort from the author to establish the supremacy of Darth Plagueis in a credible way. Therefore, secondary and fallible source.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It hardly matters anyway, Plagueis and even his predecessors were capable of manipulating the Force profoundly on a cosmic/galactic scale, doing so for a planet would be child's play.
Really? And where are these showings?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion does put Darth Plagueis to shame in the aspect of quantifiable showings.

That blurb is a cheap attempt from the publisher to one-up Darth Plagueis rather then an actual effort from the author to establish the supremacy of Darth Plagueis in a credible way. Therefore, secondary and fallible source. Dry those tears. sad

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Really? And where are these showings? Rending a hole in the fabric of the Force and unbalancing it on a galactic scale?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dry those tears. sad
I don't need to.

It is not a credible source.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Unbalancing the Force on a cosmic scale and rending a whole in the fabric of the Force?
Joint effort of Darths Plagueis and Palpatine, with months of effort behind it.

And who rendered that hole? I don't recall anything like that.

Ursumeles
Whole, Beni? lol
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And who rendered that whole?
Tenebrous' master.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles

Tenebrous' master.
Quote please.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Joint effort of Darths Plagueis and Palpatine, with months of effort behind it.Naturally you have a point considering we lack any contexts for this supposed feat of Valkorion's that pales in comparison in terms of scale and significance regardless?

Yeah, Tenebrous' master.

One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years.

Ursumeles
Both from Darth Plagueis

MythLord
Originally posted by AncientPower
There is no quote, its an observation of the suns of Ziost and Nathema. Ziost's sun was a blue hypergiant (Class O) but degrades to a mere Sun (Class M). Nor could it be a mere effect of color dilution, as such an effect would only be perceivable from within the atmosphere.

I would actually like proof of this.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Charles Boyd is SWTOR's lead writer, his statements are just as valid as any author's.

Good thing author statements are non-canon, then. thumb up

Beniboybling
Also wouldn't the solar system's star undergoing a dramatic change in nature and therefore power output slap Ziost out of the goldilocks zone? And yet I don't remember the surface freezing over. mmm

Deronn_solo
assuming a universe like star wars would follow everything physics related down to a t.

namely, how we have people that can break the sound barrier and such, and create almost no notable collateral damage from shock waves and such.

Beniboybling
Well if we're going to use conventional physics to make our case, the case has to follow conventional physics. Making exceptions where the logic doesn't check out is arbitrary from obvious reasons.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by AncientPower
The image is far too wide out and would have had the same effect on the station and surrounding moons. Furthermore other images of Nathema make it clear that the sun there also suffered the same effect. Ziost's sun went from a Class-O Sun to a Class G, which is a massive reduction in power output.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
assuming a universe like star wars would follow everything physics related down to a t.

smile

Beniboybling
thumb up

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well if we're going to use conventional physics to make our case, the case has to follow conventional physics. Making exceptions where the logic doesn't check out is arbitrary from obvious reasons.

i was never even vouching for the legitimacy of AP's claim as I haven't even bothered to look into it myself. Only commenting that expecting Star Wars to follow physics and such is retarded as nearly all the showings we use RL logic/facts to determine it's impressiveness would be shot.

E.I. Plague is vauntedly moving as fast as lightning, and so on.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
i was never even vouching for the legitimacy of AP's claim as I haven't even bothered to look into it myself. Only commenting that expecting Star Wars to follow physics and such is retarded as nearly all the showings we use RL logic/facts to determine it's impressiveness would be shot.

But if the case is based on RL physics how else would you disprove it?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Naturally you have a point considering we lack any contexts for this supposed feat of Valkorion's that pales in comparison in terms of scale and significance regardless?
I don't recall Valkorion trying to unbalance the Force like that at any point of his lifetime. Therefore, no quantifiable comparison possible in this case. And this is a lame example to cite as a quantifiable showing of power because it represents an exertion of will on a source that offered no resistance to such an effort and the entire development has philosophical underpinnings. Perhaps the Force wanted them to do that so it would have a justification for creating the Chosen One in response and show them that they are not in control?

If Darth Plagueis really had cosmic-level Force powers, he would have one-shotted the Jedi Order and more. He wouldn't have needed an apprentice either. He wouldn't have bothered studying midichlorians. A bunch of assassins would be nothing to him. Think about it.

Valkorion's showings on Zoist firmly put him above Darth Plagueis in power in a quantifiable manner since Darth Plagueis was not even willing to challenge a single professional army on his own, let alone an entire planet worth of opposition including many Jedi. Don't bother trying.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, Tenebrous' master.

One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years.
That is interesting. However, utter lack of context and explanation about how he did that.

That is like saying Hitler defeated much of Europe but no mention of how he accomplished that.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I don't recall Valkorion trying to unbalance the Force like that at any point of his lifetime. Therefore, no quantifiable comparison possible in this case. And this is a lame example to cite as a quantifiable showing because it represents an exertion of will on a source that offered no resistance to such an effort and the entire development has philosophical underpinnings. Perhaps the Force wanted them to do that so it would have a justification for creating the Chosen One in response and show them that they are not in control?

If Darth Plagueis really had cosmic-level Force powers, he would have one-shotted the Jedi Order and more. He wouldn't have needed an apprentice either. He wouldn't have bothered studying midichlorians. Think about it.

Valkorion's showings on Zoist firmly put him above Darth Plagueis in strength and Force powers in a quantifiable manner since Darth Plagueis was not even willing to challenge a single professional army on his own, let alone an entire planet worth of opposition including many Jedi. Don't bother trying.What a way to change the goal posts, my point is that if Plagueis can do this, fiddling with the Force on Nathema would be child's play.

On the other hand no, I never said Plagueis had cosmic level Force powers, but that he was able to impact the Force on a cosmic level, try to comprehend the difference.

Nonetheless care to elaborare on this "professional army" Plagueis wasn't prepared to challenge? No idea what you're on about.

Lmao. I imagine he did it with the Force.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
i was never even vouching for the legitimacy of AP's claim as I haven't even bothered to look into it myself. Only commenting that expecting Star Wars to follow physics and such is retarded as nearly all the showings we use RL logic/facts to determine it's impressiveness would be shot.

E.I. Plague is vauntedly moving as fast as lightning, and so on. So in other words, u r butting in to a debate without fully appraising yourself of the arguments. Smh. sad

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
But if the case is based on RL physics how else would you disprove it?

As I said, I never checked out the feat myself so I can't really judge.

If the Sun did visibly - and tangibly - change for one color to the next, then it should check out with out the nitpicks. If being the keyword because it could have just been AP reaching just to one-up Valkorion. Back to the point, we can say this and that about physics, but as I said before, we can't expect Star Wars to follow every aspect of RL logic/physics.

As I said, we can do that to others, too. When we use the RL speed of lightning to claim Plagueis is as fast as lightning, why eonwe ignore the fact that someone with the mass of Plagy and Ven, moving at that speed, would have caused major collateral damage to the forest?

Beniboybling
Plagueis and Venamis were described as moving like lightning, nowhere is Ziost confirmed to have changed its output as a star, that is an assumption being made off of real world physics that you have you yourself, criticised as unreliable.

So naw, again its arbitrary to make exceptions were the logic doesn't check out.

Deronn_solo
Nah, it said they looked like lightning striking, you do know 200,000 + MPH isn't required to mimic the visual representation of lightning, right? especially with weapons as bright and illuminated as lightsabers....

And as i said before, did the sun actually change colors to a visible degree?

If it did, he affected it in some sort of tangible way - whether he altered it's life cycle or not, is another discussion.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
As I said, we can do that to others, too. When we use the RL speed of lightning to claim Plagueis is as fast as lightning, why eonwe ignore the fact that someone with the mass of Plagy and Ven, moving at that speed, would have caused major collateral damage to the forest?

Why bring Tolkien gods into this? sad

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nah, it said they looked like lightning striking, you do know 200,000 + MPH isn't required to mimic the visual representation of lightning, right? especially with weapons as bright and illuminated as lightsabers....

And as i said before, did the sun actually change colors to a visible degree?

If it did, he affected it in some sort of tangible way - whether he altered it's life cycle or not, is another discussion. Illumination has nothing to do with it, its a matter of speed tbh, if something is to appear to the human eye to teleport from one place to another, it's gotta be moving pretty fast. Regardless this is besides the point, the point is this can't be likened to a case were the nature of what we are seeing has been explictly outlined (because that gives us license to dismiss what doesn't make sense).

And it does change colour in some way yeah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNJ-8gdi8TA&t=44s

But if we are going to try to read this using conventional physics, we can't pick and choose which rules we apply. It doesn't check out going by those rules, so the reading is bunk.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why bring Tolkien gods into this? sad
Because Valk wants to be a Valar, but is only a Balrog.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Why bring Tolkien gods into this? sad

ehehe. xD

@Beni: Fair enough on the lightning part, I guess, as it's not here nor there anyway.

As for the sun/changing it's life stage, yeah - I'd say bringing in the physics AP did, is a reaching on Mr. Fantastic's level and the physics don't really check out as you stated, but changing the color of a star is still pretty impressive in of itself.

S_W_LeGenD

Beniboybling
That's not what I was referring to at all. Try paying attention next time.

Will and power are synonymous, in fact, Plagueis believed that through sheer will power he could achieve all manner of Force feats. Through strength of will Palpatine could create Force storms etc. I'm not sure on what basis you've decided otherwise.

So yes, in that respect Plagueis with Palpatine's help was able to exert his will on the Force and in doing so unbalance it. Whether or not this was an opportunistic act the fact remains he did it, and the evidence that this was part of the Force's design (hint: the only design of the Force is that is strives for balance) is nil, in fact, in upsetting the cosmic balance they were in direct defiance of it.

And lol at your last point, all Plagueis is saying is that by that point the rite may of become irrelevant, nowhere does he admit that it would be an insurmountable enemy for him.

Yes, yes he did. He rent a whole in the Force using the Force.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not what I was referring to at all. Try paying attention next time.

Will and power are synonymous, in fact, Plagueis believed that through sheer will power he could achieve all manner of Force feats. Through strength of will Palpatine could create Force storms etc. I'm not sure on what basis you've decided otherwise.

So yes, in that respect Plagueis with Palpatine's help was able to exert his will on the Force and in doing so unbalance it. Whether or not this was an opportunistic act the fact remains he did it, and the evidence that this was part of the Force's design (hint: the only design of the Force is that is strives for balance) is nil, in fact, in upsetting the cosmic balance they were in direct defiance of it.

And lol at your last point, all Plagueis is saying is that by that point the rite may of become irrelevant, nowhere does he admit that it would be an insurmountable enemy for him.

Yes, yes he did. He rent a whole in the Force using the Force.
Lame excuses and face-saving effort on your part. I seem to have backed you into a corner.

Of-course, WILL precedes an ACT. However, the ACT of influencing the balance of the Force on the part of duo of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine was a strictly MENTAL EXERCISE and it has a huge set of circumstances written all over it as elaborated by me in my earlier post by connecting the relevant dots. This development is by no means a confirmation of Darth Plagueis having Cosmic-level Force powers or superiority over Valkorion in the aspects of raw power and Force ability, aspects that are actually quantifiable and meaningful in assessing the power of a character.

First, pay proper attention to what I stated in my earlier post and then bother to respond. Your knee-jerk reactions are not helping this discussion, rather a sign of desperation on your part. Most importantly, present quantifiable arguments for Darth Plagueis as to why he is superior to Valkorion. No more Force unbalance and rend philosophical nonsense.

Beniboybling
Lmao no need to get upset dear.

Again the fact it was a MENTAL EXERCISE means very little, mental exercises just to be behind all forms of Force application, and often determine the magnitude of that ability, its absolutely meaningful and quantifiable in that sense and holistically far beyond any pithy displays of raw powuur Valkorion has accomplished. In fact both Sidious & Plagueis believed that WILL was in fact the key to true power.

And once again, I never said Palpatine or Plagueis have cosmic level Force powers, but were merely able to influence the Force on a cosmic level. Try to understand the difference. smile

But no, I don't plan to go over anything. I've long since dispensed with the idea of engaging with you in an extensive debate, better things to do with my time sry. sad

Deronn_solo
you would be better off wanking the implication that HoT was prophesied by the force itself to defeat vitiate, as a counteract against Plagueis & Sidious in-balancing, LeG.

as of now, you're fighting a losing battle.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lmao no need to get upset dear.

Again the fact it was a MENTAL EXERCISE means very little, mental exercises just to be behind all forms of Force application, and often determine the magnitude of that ability, its absolutely meaningful and quantifiable in that sense and holistically far beyond any pithy displays of raw powuur Valkorion has accomplished. In fact both Sidious & Plagueis believed that WILL was in fact the key to true power.

And once again, I never said Palpatine or Plagueis have cosmic level Force powers, but were merely able to influence the Force on a cosmic level. Try to understand the difference. smile

But no, I don't plan to go over anything. I've long since dispensed with the idea of engaging with you in an extensive debate, better things to do with my time sry. sad
You can take that philosophical nonsense and shove it up your.... I think you get the point now because (comprehension) is not your forte. I tried my best to explain you the ground realities of the deeds in question but all in vain.

Beniboybling
Dry those tears.

Rockydonovang
sw legend, valk isn't even pod bane level, deal with it

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
you would be better off wanking the implication that HoT was prophesied by the force itself to defeat vitiate, as a counteract against Plagueis & Sidious in-balancing, LeG.

as of now, you're fighting a losing battle.
Yes, you can say that.

I addressed his assumptions with vital information and significant investment of time, only for him to ignore it all and continuation of parroting his nonsense. This is why I no longer find these discussions meaningful.

Idiots and college drop-outs don't deserve my valuable time and attention. I have better things to do in life.

MythLord
The goddamn irony, lmao.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I addressed the fallacies in the assumptions of that idiot with vital information and significant investment of time, only for him to ignore it and continue parroting his nonsense.

This is why I no longer find these discussions meaningful. Idiots and college drop-outs don't deserve my valuable time and attention. http://i.imgur.com/GPrsQ7T.gif

Azronger
Yeah, Legend is triggered. I don't know why some of you even bother conversing with him anymore. I'll just say this:

There's no such thing as a retarded opinion. The things that are retarded are the arguments used to back those opinions up.

YousufKhan1212
wtf

MythLord
Why so many pointless bumpzz!?

Azronger
Lmao this thread

Azronger
Hey Badabing is this a valid thread?

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