Snake Eyes Vs The Shadow

Galan007

Originally posted by deathslash
Snake eyes is easily a bullet timer Not that it changes anything, but Grendel is a casual bullet-timer as well:
http://i.imgur.com/IjvHsVbl.jpg

...Yet The Shadow beat him rather decisively -- and beat him in a book written by the creator of Grendel, no less(which is ALWAYS more impressive, tbh.)

At any rate, I would still put Snake Eyes *marginally* above The Shadow. IOW, Snake Eyes would win(as leo mentioned, some of his feats are just asinine), but Lamont would give him a great fight every single time... In fact, I personally view the difference between Snake Eyes and Lamont, being akin to the difference between Lamont and Grendel. /shrug

*For those who may not have seen the Grendel/Shadow battle:
http://i.imgur.com/KMC0llT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FU2to6p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N5nlHL3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/28S9ljI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yhwFzti.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MHy53U0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/R5WmIJ4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AneYG1H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EqjZJos.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FK1eA24.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pD3cyli.jpg

riv6672

Thank upu for the scans; seen some but mot all of them.

leonidas

Originally posted by Galan007
Not that it changes anything, but Grendel is a casual bullet-timer as well:
http://i.imgur.com/IjvHsVbl.jpg

...Yet The Shadow beat him rather decisively -- and beat him in a book written by the creator of Grendel, no less(which is ALWAYS more impressive, tbh.)

At any rate, I would still put Snake Eyes *marginally* above The Shadow. IOW, Snake Eyes would win(as leo mentioned, some of his feats are just asinine), but Lamont would give him a great fight every single time... In fact, I personally view the difference between Snake Eyes and Lamont, being akin to the difference between Lamont and Grendel. /shrug

*For those who may not have seen the Grendel/Shadow battle:
http://i.imgur.com/KMC0llT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FU2to6p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N5nlHL3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/28S9ljI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yhwFzti.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MHy53U0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/R5WmIJ4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AneYG1H.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EqjZJos.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FK1eA24.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pD3cyli.jpg

nice. you and i are about the only grendel fans i know round here and that is a good showing. like i said, didn't know much about shadow but he is tougher than i thought. i just knew snake was a beast.

btw was that a xover book or something?

riv6672

I'm a Grendel fan.

Back in 1986 I ran across the St. Patrick's Day parade and was almost caught by police because it was blocking my way to a comic shop in midtown Manhattan that was holding a copy of the first Christine Spar Comico issue for me.

So Nyah.

leonidas

grendel is great. that scene against the shadow is pretty impressive but it seems a little like one of the underestimation cases. be interesting to see a rematch, if there was one.

riv6672

That would be fun to see. I think they play well off each other.

deathslash

Originally posted by leonidas
grendel is great. that scene against the shadow is pretty impressive but it seems a little like one of the underestimation cases. be interesting to see a rematch, if there was one. there was a rematch later in the Grendel vs Shadow arc. Grendel did much better and was actually looking quite impressive considering that he was fighting the shadow and ate a few bullets from some other gangsters.

Galan007

Originally posted by leonidas
grendel is great. that scene against the shadow is pretty impressive but it seems a little like one of the underestimation cases. be interesting to see a rematch, if there was one. There was a rematch so-to-speak.

Grendel had been shot in the side just beforehand, but was relatively unaffected by the wound. Lamont had no weaponry aside from his dual blades. That said, Lamont was still portrayed as slightly superior, given that he actually drew blood, whereas Grendel drew none at all. The *only* reason Grendel escaped is because his staff electrocuted Lamont -- an attack that Lamont shrugged off immediately afterward, btw, which is an impressive feat in itself:
https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33046502_Grendel_vs._The_Shadow_003-039.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33046509_Grendel_vs._The_Shadow_003-040.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33046514_Grendel_vs._The_Shadow_003-041.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33046522_Grendel_vs._The_Shadow_003-042.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33046527_Grendel_vs._The_Shadow_003-043.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33046534_Grendel_vs._The_Shadow_003-044.jpg

Lamont has also casually owned Kato with a single strike:
http://i.imgur.com/Fnq4s3q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/StWeLlg.jpg

Like I said, the dude is definitely legit. He tends to be massively underrated, though -- mostly written off as some pulpy/feeble, Golden Age character or whathaveyou. Obviously not the case. thumb up

Galan007

Originally posted by leonidas
nice. you and i are about the only grendel fans i know round here That's because most of the forum has no taste. stick out tongue

Martian_mind

That is literally Grendel's only bullet time feat. It is, in fact, his best feat.

The dude is incredibly overrated.

beatboks

Originally posted by deathslash
ha, no. Snake eyes is easily a bullet timer and almost every version of him is resistant to mind control. The guy's easily blitzed entire companies of Cobra soldiers, killed cyborgs, sensed enemies that nobody else (including jinx and stormshadow) could see, and his pain tolerance is within the punisher/joker tier. This is a good fight no matter what you might think.

Lamont has faced and defeated many bullet timers and has plenty of bullet timing feats himself. In one Dynamite issue he was the target of a room full of gunman firing at him and none could land a shot.

Not that thats why I'm even saying he wins. His stealth is a level or two abode almost any other fictional character I can think of. He's almost always on someone before they even know he's there.

Yes Snake eyes has the advantage in pure h2h skill (though I wouldnt say by a massive margin), but that isnt all Cranston brings to the table. There's also his marksmanship to consider that frankly is up there close behind Deadshot and Bullseye. His stealth that is good enough the DC version could shadow (pun intended) the great Batman for a week or two unseen (and shoot the knife out of a Batman attackers hand from a range Bats couldnt put an exact point to - WITH a hand gun)

The op didnt say pure H2H and didnt say they coukd t use all at their disposal. In a pure H2H fight I'd give Snake a clear majority no doubt. But in an all out fight where Cranston can go to town no.

beatboks

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I could have missed a few feats, but apart from his showing against Grendel, Dynamite Shadow really isn't that impressive, IIRC. Especially if you want to claim that he wins "without breaking a sweat".

Theres ore but seriosuly taking out Kato and Hornet in a one shot screams impressive.

And F#&& off with that Grendal overated sh!t. The prefix you were looking for was UNDER not over. Gave the goddam Bat a run for his money

deathslash

Originally posted by beatboks
Lamont has faced and defeated many bullet timers and has plenty of bullet timing feats himself. In one Dynamite issue he was the target of a room full of gunman firing at him and none could land a shot.

Not that thats why I'm even saying he wins. His stealth is a level or two abode almost any other fictional character I can think of. He's almost always on someone before they even know he's there.

Yes Snake eyes has the advantage in pure h2h skill (though I wouldnt say by a massive margin), but that isnt all Cranston brings to the table. There's also his marksmanship to consider that frankly is up there close behind Deadshot and Bullseye. His stealth that is good enough the DC version could shadow (pun intended) the great Batman for a week or two unseen (and shoot the knife out of a Batman attackers hand from a range Bats couldnt put an exact point to - WITH a hand gun)

The op didnt say pure H2H and didnt say they coukd t use all at their disposal. In a pure H2H fight I'd give Snake a clear majority no doubt. But in an all out fight where Cranston can go to town no. I have doubts about the shadows enabling him to get the jump on snake eyes. Snake has managed to detect creatures and characters that even stormshadow and jinx have been unable to detect. Even some of the greatest assassins have been called children in comparison to him. Also, how is the shadow going to hide? Unless otherwise specified, they're fighting in an open, flat space.

Martian_mind

Originally posted by beatboks
Theres ore but seriosuly taking out Kato and Hornet in a one shot screams impressive.

And F#&& off with that Grendal overated sh!t. The prefix you were looking for was UNDER not over. Gave the goddam Bat a run for his money

Apart from Batman and the bullet swat, what has Grendel done? Shadow stomped him (Grendel literally didn't land an honest shot in their first exchange, they were all cheap shots). His best showing in his own comic is taking down those 4 MA masters. Otherwise, all he's done is torment mooks. Shit, Shadow even comments on how he lacks actual training.

Grendel is a chump. Deal with it.

Galan007

Originally posted by Martian_mind
That is literally Grendel's only bullet time feat. It is, in fact, his best feat.

The dude is incredibly overrated. Hopefully you are just being facetious, because that is most certainly NOT his only bullet-timing feat, lol.

Calling Grendel overrated is hysterical. Very few people around here even know who the guys is -- let alone know enough about him to exaggerate what he's done on panel. laughing out loud

Martian_mind

The people who do know about Grendel wank him to no end, however. They'll try and pass him off as a top-tier street, which simply isn't the case.

deathslash

Originally posted by Martian_mind
The people who do know about Grendel wank him to no end, however. They'll try and pass him off as a top-tier street, which simply isn't the case. so fighting an agless manwolf that uses magic isn't something that a top tier street does? Managing to evade and outsmart batman twice isn't something you'd expect from a top tier street? Evenly fighting the shadow isn't something that a top tier street does?

Galan007

herbcry

Martian_mind

Originally posted by deathslash
so fighting an agless manwolf that uses magic isn't something that a top tier street does? Managing to evade and outsmart batman twice isn't something you'd expect from a top tier street? Evenly fighting the shadow isn't something that a top tier street does?

A top-tier street wouldn't get killed by said wolf, especially if the wolf was a featless wonder. As to the Shadow, he and Grendel never "fought evenly". Grendel was totally outclassed. In their first fight, Grendel only landed cheap shots, and Shadow even remarks about Grendel's lack of actual skill. In their second fight, Grendel flees the moment he's injured, an injury that most top streets would simply fight their way through.

Look, I love the Hunter Rose stories. However, he suffers from the same condition as Dr Manhatten, in that he exists in a world where he is mostly unchallenged. As such, he is heavily lacking in the context and feats necessary to be considered top-tier. The Shadow showing further cements this, as Shadow was portrayed as his obvious superior in h2h.

deathslash

Originally posted by Martian_mind
A top-tier street wouldn't get killed by said wolf, especially if the wolf was a featless wonder. As to the Shadow, he and Grendel never "fought evenly". Grendel was totally outclassed. In their first fight, Grendel only landed cheap shots, and Shadow even remarks about Grendel's lack of actual skill. In their second fight, Grendel flees the moment he's injured, an injury that most top streets would simply fight their way through.

Look, I love the Hunter Rose stories. However, he suffers from the same condition as Dr Manhatten, in that he exists in a world where he is mostly unchallenged. As such, he is heavily lacking in the context and feats necessary to be considered top-tier. The Shadow showing further cements this, as Shadow was portrayed as his obvious superior in h2h. that "featless wonder" had seen years of combat and was still a physically enhance werewolf shaman. Did it occur to you that instead of that being a low showing for Grendel, that it was just a high showing for Argent?

huh

Martian_mind

Originally posted by deathslash
that "featless wonder" had seen years of combat and was still a physically enhance werewolf shaman. Did it occur to you that instead of that being a low showing for Grendel, that it was just a high showing for Argent?

huh

what? In their first fight, Grendel casually dodged the Shadow's gunfire and then charged him. Shadow knocked him away and then used a smoke pellet to sneak attack Grendel (which is funny because sneak attacking someone is a form of cheapshot) and used his hypnotic ring. Grendel then headbutted the shadow and the shadow attacked him while he was talking (another cheapshot) and Grendel hit him and ran. So let's review, shadow cheapshots Grendel twice and Grendel cheapshots the shadow twice. Also, at no point in time did the Shadow ever allude to Grendel not being skilled. Seriously, show me where he said that.

Dodging gunfire means nothing to a street-leveller, so that's a moot point. As to the rest, Shadow easily blocked Grendel's blow, and booted his arse away. All he did through the smoke was seize Grendel's blade, so that's hardly a cheap shot. I'll grant you, he took Grendel by surprise with the nerve strikes, but Grendel's reaction is rather damning. He fled, and fully concedes that the Shadow bested him. So that's two occasions of Grendel bitching out, in circumstances that a real top-street would power through.

As for Argent, all the description and hyperbole means nothing, if he doesn't have the feats to back it up. Now, what actual, concrete feats does Argent have, apart from killing mooks and Grendel?

As for the lack of genuine skill, the comment comes a few pages later in the same issue as their first fight. Shadow remarks that it's as though Grendel has no formal training, as he has a completely chaotic, innate style. It's meant as a compliment, yet it puts Grendel at a disadvantage to the top-tiers, who, as the Shadow displayed, have access to nerve-strikes and the like.

Galan007

Originally posted by Martian_mind
As for the lack of genuine skill, the comment comes a few pages later in the same issue as their first fight. Shadow remarks that it's as though Grendel has no formal training, as he has a completely chaotic, innate style. It's meant as a compliment, yet it puts Grendel at a disadvantage to the top-tiers, who, as the Shadow displayed, have access to nerve-strikes and the like. You're going out of your way to lowball Grendel for literally no reason at all -- you're as bad as those 'Grendel-wankers' you were just talking shit about. srsly

As for Shadow's statement: you're taking it HUGELY out of context. Not only does his statement in that scene reconfirm Grendel's ability to bullet-time --even against a top-tier marksman like Lamont-- but it confirms that Grendel simply did not fight with any formalized technique that Lamont was familiar with:
http://i.imgur.com/KsUlwuD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ufu4XjZ.jpg

If anything, it puts those with formal training at a disadvantage against Grendel, as it is hard/impossible to gauge his technique and whatnot. That is probably part of the reason why Grendel has effortlessly slaughtered those with formalized training several times in the past... He was more than a match for Batman, for example.

As for the nerve strikes: Kato was KTFO for a few pages by ONE of them, and The Shadow wasn't even trying to harm him. Grendel endured THREE of them in rapid succession, and The Shadow was actually fighting for his life when he delivered them. Moreover, Grendel was still able to successfully attack Lamont immediately afterward and flee. Again, that is just a testament to how amazing he is -- it is certainly NOT a poor showing.

deathslash

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Dodging gunfire means nothing to a street-leveller, so that's a moot point. As to the rest, Shadow easily blocked Grendel's blow, and booted his arse away. All he did through the smoke was seize Grendel's blade, so that's hardly a cheap shot. I'll grant you, he took Grendel by surprise with the nerve strikes, but Grendel's reaction is rather damning. He fled, and fully concedes that the Shadow bested him. So that's two occasions of Grendel bitching out, in circumstances that a real top-street would power through.

As for Argent, all the description and hyperbole means nothing, if he doesn't have the feats to back it up. Now, what actual, concrete feats does Argent have, apart from killing mooks and Grendel?
saying that Grendel dodging the Shadow's gunfire is moot is akin to saying that batman dodging deadshot's bullets isn't impressive. Yes, Grendel got pistol whipped and kicked in the chest and was still fighting with no problem. Meanwhile, when the shadow took a headbut from him, he was in serious pain (enough pain for grendel to have a small monolog). Also, how's grendel's reaction damming? He could barely move, didn't have his weapon, and still managed to hit the shadow hard enough to escape.

Also, he didn't just up and run in their second fight. He casually disarmed the Shadow and then put up a good fight against a full health Shadow. Hell, he even managed to land a hit and only ran after he couldn't use one of his arms and started getting shot at again. The funny thing is that the Shadow himself noted that Grendel couldn't beat him with that bullet wound and he still held his own.

You realize that argent was tough enough to survive a multi story fall, could and did rip off people's arms and crush their skulls, and fought the second Grendel (the one that slays vampires) to a double kill after casually healing himself of a broken (or was it severed?) spine?

Galan007

Originally posted by deathslash
You realize that argent was tough enough to survive a multi story fall, could and did rip off people's arms and crush their skulls, and fought the second Grendel (the one that slays vampires) to a double kill after casually healing himself of a broken (or was it severed?) spine? His spine was completely severed:

http://i.imgur.com/e71163B.png

Don Draper

I'm totally convinced of grandels MA skills, but is it just h2h or is he also skilled with melee weapons?

deathslash

Originally posted by Galan007
His spine was completely severed:

http://i.imgur.com/e71163B.png thumb up

thanks galan.

Galan007

Originally posted by Don Draper
I'm totally convinced of grandels MA skills, but is it just h2h or is he also skilled with melee weapons? Grendel is VERY skilled with melee weaponry -- he *uses* a melee weapon as standard equipment, after all(ie. 'The Grendel Fork'.)

Even as a teenager, Grendel/Hunter was already the best fencer in the world by a HUGE margin -- literally toyed with the next best before allowing him to win after getting bored:
http://i.imgur.com/98pvIyc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JLaVZUU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PyB09VP.jpg

And obviously his skills just continued to massively improve from there. That's why he could so casually slaughter a room-full of Korean mobsters, who were extraordinarily skilled in their own right:
http://i.imgur.com/7oWnq2U.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AVTsrPT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3eMkntQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/95WANGW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BZ9EVz9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Xfkph1J.jpg
*He also easily avoided gunfire as well.

But I'd say the trait that really sets Grendel apart from others is his speed. I have already posted bullet-timing feats, but here are a few others...

Avoids close-range handgun fire:
http://i.imgur.com/mMIH2Sn.jpg

Avoids close-range fire from multiple fully automatic weapons:
http://i.imgur.com/NefjNjT.jpg

*There are bullet-timing feats more if anyone would like to see them.

His speed was also such that even Batman was shocked by it:
http://i.imgur.com/rMdAHcM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nFNbWJM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Lm3BGoJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZL3PH7T.jpg
*As you can see, he was more than a match for Bruce during their battle.

Grendel was also stealthy enough to take Bruce by surprise, which is astounding in its own right:
http://i.imgur.com/Yo7c1E5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Q92MxLE.jpg

And it goes without saying that his ridiculous physical speed crosses-over into his weaponry as well:
http://i.imgur.com/SKBaNpA.jpg

Grendel has a LOT more feats/accolades under his belt, but hopefully what I've posted is enough for you to get a rough idea of his abilities. thumb up

Sin I AM

Originally posted by Don Draper
I'm totally convinced of grandels MA skills, but is it just h2h or is he also skilled with melee weapons?

theyre synonymous. pulp guys don't get the same exposure as mainstream is all

Martian_mind

I'm really not attempting to lowball Grendel here. I'm just striking back against these ridiculous notions about his skill, which, as I've said, are easily traced back to the context of his appearances. Grendel seems so fearsome because he exists in a relatively mundane world. How many times have we seen mooks talking about a member of the bat family as though they were something entirely beyond human? Grendel is seen almost primarily from the perspective of 'normals'. Therefore, while has been treated to a host of hyperbole, which deceives many of his fans, he still lacks the feats to be a true top-tier.

Take for example the Korean gangsters. Galan referred to them as 'extraordinarily skilled'. What does that mean, exactly? What have they done to merit that label? Where would they stack up against, say, Dr Mid-nite? Because I'd bet he had them beat on feats.

The most damning evidence is in the crossover fights. You say that Grendel was 'more than a match' for Batman. No, he obviously wasn't. That statement inherently implies superiority, yet the fight ends with Grendel flat on his face, until Batman picks him up. He wasn't superior, he lost the exchange. He also lost to the Shadow, on two separate occasions.

Now, if a character with relatively few feats, tries his luck against two actually top-tiers, and finds himself losing every encounter, how can that character be considered a true top-tier himself?

Again, I'm not saying that Grendel is incapable. He's good, very good. He's just not quite as good as people try to declare.

Galan007

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Take for example the Korean gangsters. Galan referred to them as 'extraordinarily skilled'. What does that mean, exactly? What have they done to merit that label? Where would they stack up against, say, Dr Mid-nite? Because I'd bet he had them beat on feats. It means they were 'extraordinarily skilled' in comparison to most of the other fighters/mobsters within the Grendel-verse, of course. That's why the Korean mob was so feared among the criminal underworld, and even among law enforcement.

Why on earth would I be comparing them to characters from an entirely different company? confused

Originally posted by Martian_mind
The most damning evidence is in the crossover fights. You say that Grendel was 'more than a match' for Batman. No, he obviously wasn't. That statement inherently implies superiority, yet the fight ends with Grendel flat on his face, until Batman picks him up. He wasn't superior, he lost the exchange. He also lost to the Shadow, on two separate occasions. No, that might be how YOU interpreted my statement, but my intent was obviously NOT to claim that Grendel was superior to Batman... Otherwise I wouldn't have posted scans of their fight, lol.

They stalemated for almost the entire fight, until Bruce narrowly gained the upperhand in the final few panels -- and it's not like Grendel was KO'd or got the shit beat out of him; he was just subdued for that moment. Fact is: there are scarce few street-levelers who are capable of giving Bruce such a legitimately good fight... So in *that* sense, Grendel was more than a match for him(which is what I was saying.)

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Again, I'm not saying that Grendel is incapable. He's good, very good. He's just not quite as good as people try to declare. Sorry, but you originally said that Grendel is "incredibly overrated" and "a chump". Only now are you admitting that he IS a great fighter -- just not *as* great as the absolute elite of the street-levelers, like Batman... Which I have NEVER disputed, and actually AGREE with. If Batman is a 10, Grendel is a 9, and The Shadow is a 9.5. Imo.

I don't know how other people debate Grendel, but I have posted evidence to support every single claim I have made about him. So I would hope you aren't trying to blanket me amongst the ill-informed 'Grendel-wankers'. wink

Martian_mind

You were actually the genesis of my belief in Grendel's over-exaggeration, TBH, as I remembered this quote from your Grendel lineage thread.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hunter Rose=Batman-level. Arguably a bit above.
Christine/Brian=Slightly below that.
Eppy=Batman-level. Arguably a bit above.
Grendel Prime=Very hard to precisely place, as we never saw an upper limit. Physically he could lift 18 wheelers and toss them around, and he schooled Batman with a mixture of fighting skill/strength. He was a cyborg that could recharge via solar or electrical absorption... And he carried a lightsaber-esque weapon to boot.

You claimed he's either equal to Batman, or arguably above. As has been seen in this thread, and as you have admitted, he is definitely not equal, and certainly not above. So I maintain, on the occasions he appears, Grendel is overrated on these forums.

Galan007

Originally posted by Martian_mind
You were actually the genesis of my belief in Grendel's over-exaggeration, TBH, as I remembered this quote from your Grendel lineage thread.

You claimed he's either equal to Batman, or arguably above. As has been seen in this thread, and as you have admitted, he is definitely not equal, and certainly not above. So I maintain, on the occasions he appears, Grendel is overrated on these forums. Seriously? You're mentioning a post I made 5 years ago --before I had even read the Batman/Grendel crossover-- like it still reflects my current opinion(which I have made overtly clear in this thread.) Jesus, I hate to call someone ridiculous, but you're clearly just digging at this point. I mean, in this very thread you were the one who said that Grendel is 'an overrated chump' -- and soon switched goalposts to him actually being a really good fighter(after you saw the scans/evidence I posted.) But yeah, keep dodging that. thumb up

Anyway, is Grendel on the same general level at Bruce? Yes. Is he superior to Bruce on average? No, but he can give him an incredibly close fight.

Martian_mind

Originally posted by Galan007
Seriously? You're mentioning a post I made 5 years ago --before I had even read the Batman/Grendel crossover-- like it still reflects my current opinion(which I have made overtly clear in this thread.) Jesus, I hate to call someone ridiculous, but you're clearly just digging at this point. I mean, in this very thread you were the one who said that Grendel is 'an overrated chump' -- and soon switched goalposts to him actually being a really good fighter(after you saw the scans/evidence I posted.) But yeah, keep dodging that. thumb up

Anyway, is Grendel on the same general level at Bruce? Yes. Is he superior to Bruce on average? No, but he can give him an incredibly close fight.

I stated that people overrate Grendel, and showed an example of you doing that very thing, especially if this was prior to reading his encounter with Batman. How you could believe he was ever 'arguably above' based solely on his own series, is completely beyond me.

And you haven't changed my opinion, in any way. Grendel is a good fighter, very good. In the context of this debate, which deals with his ranking in regards to top-tier fighters, Grendel is, and will always be, a chump. He has lost every encounter, including one that was tailored to his skill-set (Shadow beat him blade-to-blade. Considering that is Grendel's specialty, it makes his defeat all the more embarrassing). As to the Batman fight, you are really exaggerating Grendel's achievements. Nightsing, Red Hood, Catman etc, have all given Batman FAR better fights. The Grendel-Bat exchange could not have lasted longer than a minute, scales against the time it took that child to overbalance and fall. I can think of scarce-few High-streets that would find themselves overwhelmed so swiftly.

Galan007

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I stated that people overrate Grendel, and showed an example of you doing that very thing, especially if this was prior to reading his encounter with Batman. How you could believe he was ever 'arguably above' based solely on his own series, is completely beyond me. laughing out loud

Please do not try to speak on my knowledge of a character.

When I first dove into Grendel hardcore, I read ALL of the primary Dark Horse issues pertaining to the Grendel Lineage. I did not read the crossovers initially, because I figured they were non-canon and therefore irrelevant to the characters(as most crossovers are.) It was only later(after I made the thread you cited) that I learned those crossovers were in fact regarded as canon; at which point I read them. Simple.

Perhaps you should ease off with the e-arrogance, and get all of the facts before you spew nonsense..? I mean, judging by some of the things you've said in this very thread, it is overtly clear that you aren't at all familiar with Grendel... But other than bash you for your clear lack of knowledge on a character that you were/are lowballing, I opted to educate you instead.

smile

Originally posted by Martian_mind
And you haven't changed my opinion, in any way. Grendel is a good fighter, very good. In the context of this debate, which deals with his ranking in regards to top-tier fighters, Grendel is, and will always be, a chump. He has lost every encounter, including one that was tailored to his skill-set (Shadow beat him blade-to-blade. Considering that is Grendel's specialty, it makes his defeat all the more embarrassing). As to the Batman fight, you are really exaggerating Grendel's achievements. Nightsing, Red Hood, Catman etc, have all given Batman FAR better fights. The Grendel-Bat exchange could not have lasted longer than a minute, scales against the time it took that child to overbalance and fall. I can think of scarce-few High-streets that would find themselves overwhelmed so swiftly. Bullshit. You are just lowballing... And literally going out of your way to do so. How do I know this? Because you have either tried to diminish, or just flat-out ignore, every one of Grendel's feats that have been mentioned here by myself and others... Literally every single one. The guy is clearly in Batman's overall league, but still marginally below him. Your sub-par attempts to lowball certainly do not supersede on-panel feats, I'm afraid.

As I said earlier: you are just as bad(if not moreso) than the 'Grendel-wankers' you've so ardently talked shit about. At least *they* base their arguments on something of substance. You, on the other hand, clearly have some kind of hidden agenda against the character, and are just going on a hate-fueled rate at this point. I mean seriously, every time I pin you in a corner, you defer to the "Grendel is a chump and his feats are weaksauce" argument. laughing out loud

All of my statements/opinions, however, are completely fact based, and have been supported with on-panel evidence. smile

Martian_mind

When did I attack your knowledge, exactly? I asked how you could come to the conclusion that Grendel was 'arguably above' Batman, based on the feats present in his solo series. You have ignored this question in favour of a needlessly aggressive, straw man-based rant.

How about you address it now. Discounting crossovers, what feats does Grendel have that put him 'arguably above'? If that was your opinion prior to the crossover, then there must be some doozies, as it was the actual crossover that changed your opinion. Or maybe, just maybe, you were overrating Grendel, which is what started this debate in the first place.

Galan007

Originally posted by Martian_mind
When did I attack your knowledge, exactly? I asked how you could come to the conclusion that Grendel was 'arguably above' Batman, based on the feats present in his solo series. You have ignored this question in favour of a needlessly aggressive, straw man-based rant.

How about you address it now. Discounting crossovers, what feats does Grendel have that put him 'arguably above'? If that was your opinion prior to the crossover, then there must be some doozies, as it was the actual crossover that changed your opinion. Or maybe, just maybe, you were overrating Grendel, which is what started this debate in the first place. His feats outside that crossover have been mentioned/posted in this thread already -- not just by me, but by others as well. Why bring them up again? You'll just defer to the "Grendel is a chump and his feats are weaksauce" argument like you always do, whilst completely diminishing or ignoring the feats themselves.

Hell, the fact that you are STILL clinging to a 5 year old post, when I have made my opinion adundently clear in this thread, is laughable... And shows me that you literally have nothing at all to support your arrogant banter. I mean, you clearly know very little about Grendel, given some of your previous statements in this thread, yet you incessantly try to lowball him in lieu of your glaring ignorance of the character. It is one of the more ridiculous and desperate attempts to downplay a character that I have ever seen here. It's actually quite funny at this point, tbh.

OR is it possible that maybe...just maybe...it is YOU who has the blinders on? Nah, I'm sure THAT can't possibly be the case, right? roll eyes (sarcastic)

{edit}
At any rate, I am done feeding into this circular/fallacious BS. You can have the last word(you clearly want it anyway)... If anyone else would like to *intelligibly* discuss Grendel or The Shadow, however, I would be more than happy to. thumb up

Martian_mind

I think I'll take that last word, considering yours were quite feeble. At the very least, I'll summarise yours, for any outsider-readers lacking the inclination to decipher your wall-of-text.

Basically, rather than answer a very simple question, you make a sad attempt to deflect, and again resort to needless agression. You have posted feats, yes, yet not a damn thing that supports your stance of Grendel being a legitimate peer to Batman. You can try and claim you've already done it, yet anyone who sees those scans will dismiss them as evidence to that fact, regardless of how hard you try and play them up. That you are now actively leaving the discussion, simply because you are incapable of supporting your stance, or handling an interpretation that doesn't fit your pre-conceived idea of a character you have, and still are, overrating, is both a hilarious and immature approach, though one becoming of your conduct throughout the rest of this debate.

To bring this all full circle, I say once again that Grendel is overrated, and no match for the top-tiers of the street-tier. If anyone has ANY evidence to suggest otherwise, please bring it forward.

Don Draper

Galan007 is right. grendel is definitely a toptier street leveler but something ive noticed on this site is that some people are just going to low ball characters no matter how much proofs is stacked against them.

but ya- shadow beating grendel is insane feat in itself and definitely puts him on batman's level and grendel just under that. i think shadow can win here.

beatboks

Originally posted by Martian_mind
That is literally Grendel's only bullet time feat. It is, in fact, his best feat.

The dude is incredibly overrated.

You claimed back on page 2 that Grendal had onlynyhe one bullet timing feat.
Galan has posted about 7 others IIRC.

Is it any wonder he has left the discussiin with you when you are this dismissive of proof countering your claims.

You've also made the assertion that standard street levelers bullet time. This simply isnt the case, the only characters that legitimately bullet time are too tier. There are many examples of lower tier streets AIM dodging, but that isn't the same thing as bullet timing.

FTR Galan also pretty openly said he ISN'T leaving the discusion, just that he's exiting from the circular debate with you when you've clearly shown your dismissive of what he has offered.

Galan007

Yeah, evidently I am "playing up the evidence" by describing EXACTLY what is happening in the scans, lol.

There is just no use discussing Grendel with MM any further. Doesn't matter what we say or post, he will just continue to ignore the evidence presented, call Grendel an overrated chump, accuse us of wanking him, and lowball the shit out of him. Wash/rinse/repeat.

But yeah, I would very much like to discuss Grendel or The Shadow with a more unbiased party, who doesn't have some sort of vendetta against the character(s). They are some of the most fun/interesting street-levelers out there, imo, and they honestly need more exposure among the forum. thumb up

beatboks

Originally posted by Galan007

But yeah, I would very much like to discuss Grendel or The Shadow with a more unbiased party, who doesn't have some sort of vendetta against the character(s). They are some of the most fun/interesting street-levelers out there, imo, and they honestly need more exposure among the forum. thumb up

Definitely agree with the underlined
the shadow is one of my favourite street level characters, I'm not really into street level as much but he certainly qualifies as being a top fav of mine.
as a Marksman I would rank him easily top 5 with Bullseye Deadshot and ultimate Hawkeye above him (can't think of anyone else that would).

H2h more like top 30-40ish
Stealth top 10
Strategy top 20-30
Reflex top 15-20

As an all round street character adding in his mind f#%ery powers easily too 15-20 when you tie the package together.

Martian_mind

Originally posted by beatboks
Definitely agree with the underlined
the shadow is one of my favourite street level characters, I'm not really into street level as much but he certainly qualifies as being a top fav of mine.
as a Marksman I would rank him easily top 5 with Bullseye Deadshot and ultimate Hawkeye above him (can't think of anyone else that would).

H2h more like top 30-40ish
Stealth top 10
Strategy top 20-30
Reflex top 15-20

As an all round street character adding in his mind f#%ery powers easily too 15-20 when you tie the package together.

His recent dynamite series was excellent. Justice INC was an interesting venture, as it also gave us a chance to see where Doc Savage fits in the rankings as well. He and Shadow were definitely portrayed as peers, as far as H2H goes.

Galan007

Originally posted by beatboks
Definitely agree with the underlined
the shadow is one of my favourite street level characters, I'm not really into street level as much but he certainly qualifies as being a top fav of mine.
as a Marksman I would rank him easily top 5 with Bullseye Deadshot and ultimate Hawkeye above him (can't think of anyone else that would).

H2h more like top 30-40ish
Stealth top 10
Strategy top 20-30
Reflex top 15-20

As an all round street character adding in his mind f#%ery powers easily too 15-20 when you tie the package together. I agree with everything you said for the most part. thumb up

When all of Lamont's gadgetry and whatnot is coupled with his h2h skills(ie. the 'complete package' you spoke of), he is formidable enough to give any street-leveler a run for their money, imo. His more recent showings in Dynamite Comics have really solidified that for me. Feats like dropping Kato with one casual strike, for example... Just insane, lol. It is obvious that Lamont is deeply respected by ALL writers -- no matter the company. Throughout the entire history of comic books, a scarce few characters can make such a boast.

http://i.imgur.com/TzXFAKF.png

wink

riv6672

^^^Batman's such a fanboy.

I love when writers point that out:
https://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/bats-and-sherlock.jpg

beatboks

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree with everything you said for the most part. thumb up

I loved those SA Batman cross overs.
If I'm not mistaken that one was from the story where Shadow followed Bruce for the wholenissue and saved him twice with his marksmanship. Only the second time was Bruce even certain thatbhe had seen a form move.