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Who wins?

Bill

Black Adam, hard.

WW3

Deoends if Bill remembers all of his powers or not.

split

Ordinarily I'd say BRB owns BA hard. But WW3 BA was a different beast. Someone needs to post a pic of the HORDE of super humans WW3 BA took on. BRB would have been killed.

EDIT : Here it is -
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/61496/1238821-624161_black_adam_2_super.jpg
Wish I could find a bigger picture.

Originally posted by zopzop
Ordinarily I'd say BRB owns BA hard. But WW3 BA was a different beast. Someone needs to post a pic of the HORDE of super humans WW3 BA took on. BRB would have been killed.

EDIT : Here it is -
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/61496/1238821-624161_black_adam_2_super.jpg
Wish I could find a bigger picture.

They jobbed. Bill would replicate said feat

That version of Adam looked good because he wasn't holding back. I would like to see a non holding back Bill in action.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
They jobbed. Bill would replicate said feat
They really didn't though. Even if you believe that, he was being mindphucked by Martian Manhunter while they were wailing on him. This isn't the first time he's resisted TP either.

BRB is notoriously bad at resisting psi attacks. He would have been crushed.

meh, biggest guns were absent--superman and wonder woman. i love adam, but i find that arc to be a bit overrated. hawkman with alan's mace could have killed him earlier in the arc but held back. adam is very powerful--but any really powerful hero who cuts completely lose would be portrayed in a similar light, least imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, biggest guns were absent--superman and wonder woman. i love adam, but i find that arc to be a bit overrated. hawkman with alan's mace could have killed him earlier in the arc but held back. adam is very powerful--but any really powerful hero who cuts completely lose would be portrayed in a similar light, least imo.
Of course if WW was there it'd be over. Lasso, command him to speak the magic word, fight over.

But that doesn't mean BRB would do just as well in Adam's place. Like I said, Martian Manhunter was attacking his mind while this was going on and Adam resisted. BRB has been owned by 'psychic pirates' on at least 2 different occasions on panel. It was a one shot both times too.

er, he's not fighting a psychic here, and bill does have some (at least one i recall) resistance feats so were he to be featured in an arc similar to the one adam had, i could easily see him doing as well or better if he really cut lose with that hammer. same way i'd see a completely unfettered thor doing better, who has also had a sketchy past with tp-users. /shrug anyway, i still say this is a split, or pretty close to it one way or the other, assuming adam is all out and bill stays in character.

Originally posted by leonidas
er, he's not fighting a psychic here,
I know. I was just addressing the point some were bringing up saying that BRB would do as well as WW3 BA in that fight which is highly debatable (seeing as how BRB has a horrible record against PSIs).

Thor's record (against PSIs), while spotty, is MUCH better than Bill's.

Adam easily.Originally posted by leonidas
meh, biggest guns were absent--superman and wonder woman. i love adam, but i find that arc to be a bit overrated. hawkman with alan's mace could have killed him earlier in the arc but held back. adam is very powerful--but any really powerful hero who cuts completely lose would be portrayed in a similar light, least imo.
Seriously?

absolutely.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
They jobbed. Bill would replicate said feat
There's always hints of jobbing when a character goes up against a big team of characters that include very powerful members. It's pretty much part and parcel in these types of situations even though on paper that team should destroy the one character. Still we can't discount the feat.

Would Bill be able to replicate the feat if he was in the same mindset? I don't see why not considering his high end portrayals.

WW3 edges him out here I think since we're taking arguably BA's best showing and focusing on this version then pitting him against a regular portrayal Bill as per OP.

Wait who made the thread anyway? Oh It's Prep-man...

Originally posted by Sin I AM
They jobbed. Bill would replicate said feat How would bill tag jay garrick? Beat martian manhunter? Etc?

Originally posted by leonidas
meh, biggest guns were absent--superman and wonder woman. i love adam, but i find that arc to be a bit overrated. hawkman with alan's mace could have killed him earlier in the arc but held back. adam is very powerful--but any really powerful hero who cuts completely lose would be portrayed in a similar light, least imo.

Power Girl , J'onn, Alan, Guy, Firestorm. Pick any of these two, and they'd shitstomp Bill. Pick all of them, and it'd be a massacre. Pick all of them plus a dozen other heroes, and it's not even a discussion.

Black Adam was beating them all, simultaneously.

Bill has nothing that comes even close - and this is what it comes down to.

I'd agree with you that they weren't fighting to the best of their abilities - but if we use that criteria, then we'd eliminate a very large percent of comic book fights.

----

I'd give normal Black Adam at least 7/10 against Bill.

Their record doesn't even compare, even outside of WW3.

WW3 Adam had the power of an additional god, and the righteous fury of a man out to massacre a country in the middle east.

Bill is dead.

@Philo

Isn't Adam's fight against the JSA a better feat, anyway? It took plot device from Hourman 1M/Dr. Fate to defeat Adam.

Originally posted by krisblaze
WW3 Adam had the power of an additional god, and the righteous fury of a man out to massacre a country in the middle east.

Bill is dead.

If Bill is dead no matter what. He could cut loose and uncouple those power inhibitors. Levels out the playing field for a few minutes before he melts down.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
How would bill tag jay garrick? Beat martian manhunter? Etc?

they jobbed of course bill could

@phil, sorry bro, not buying it--at least not all of it. if we went by actual high end feats, i could pick any of the 2 you named and show they should be able to slaughter adam too, so clearly, as you said, they did not fight to their best. that group together should be able to slaughter even guys like superman. does that mean had he shown up adam would have destroyed superman too? i don't really think so, at all. and if he couldn't destroy superman, no way i see him destroying someone like bill, who is thor's exact equal. in fact, going by feats, that group that challenged adam never fought even CLOSE to their best and several were holding back iirc. and like i said, hawkman and alan could have ended him, but chose not to, so there is that. blood and thunder thor (before he got the gem) beat the f*** out of ss and adam and the infinity watch. who did the best by far against him? bill, who actually put even that thor down.

by saying they weren't at their best, i don't think we'd be eliminating all that many fights--only the ones of this type, where someone is clearly being highlighted at the expense of a large number of characters. i always view these types of scenes with a grain of salt. not only was superman and ww absent, marvel wasn't there either, so meh. impressive showing, sure, but i don't place as much stock in that arc as others do. /shrug

Its bad that you have to focus on Adams very best showing only to make this a fight. BIll uncouples and one shots him.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Its bad that you have to focus on Adams very best showing only to make this a fight. BIll uncouples and one shots him.
He also took out the JSA by himself :
http://imgur.com/a/FCtNI
So he has, on at least two occasions, soloed teams of super humans consisting of multiple herald level beings.

He wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
He also took out the JSA by himself :
http://imgur.com/a/FCtNI
So he has, on at least two occasions, soloed teams of super humans consisting of multiple herald level beings.

He wins.



I think that feat in JSA is just as good as WW 3, anyway.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Its bad that you have to focus on Adams very best showing only to make this a fight. BIll uncouples and one shots him.


a common misconception is that ww3 black adam was this uber version of adam. he wasn't...he was soooo much better during BR

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Its bad that you have to focus on Adams very best showing only to make this a fight. BIll uncouples and one shots him.

Well....thread DOES say WW3 BA...

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil, sorry bro, not buying it--at least not all of it. if we went by actual high end feats, i could pick any of the 2 you named and show they should be able to slaughter adam too, so clearly, as you said, they did not fight to their best. that group together should be able to slaughter even guys like superman. does that mean had he shown up adam would have destroyed superman too? i don't really think so, at all. Space cheese don't override direct comparisons, and Black Adam has been consistently shown as above the combined capabilities of similar teams, again and again. WWIII isn't a one-off Black Adam feat - he's ALWAYS been portrayed as being able to take it to high-end teams. That's happened again and again throughout his history.

That doesn't prove he'd be able to slaughter Superman, who has had similar combat showings, btw. The problem is, Bill doesn't.

Originally posted by leonidas
blood and thunder thor (before he got the gem) beat the f*** out of ss and adam and the infinity watch. who did the best by far against him? bill, who actually put even that thor down. Silver Surfer has treated Beta Ray Bill like a nuisance. Thor had beaten him before Surfer intervened, then got caught on the wrong foot and was slammed with Stormbreaker in the back of the head , was momentarily down, then one-shotted Beta Ray Bill once he got up. Surfer intervened twice in BRB's aid.

I ask you to show me Bill performing against teams of similar capability, not against Thor and by extension all the characters Thor has faced. If you want to play that way, Black Adam has pulled Amazo's head off, and Amazo has gone up against the JLA. Black Adam has laughed off Doctor Fate, who has fought Mordru .

This is a battle you can't win, trust me.

Originally posted by leonidas
by saying they weren't at their best, i don't think we'd be eliminating all that many fights--only the ones of this type, where someone is clearly being highlighted at the expense of a large number of characters. i always view these types of scenes with a grain of salt. not only was superman and ww absent, marvel wasn't there either, so meh. impressive showing, sure, but i don't place as much stock in that arc as others do. /shrug

Characters not fighting at their best isn't exclusive to teams. Superman in 99.999% of his fights isn't at his best, be they solo or as part of the Justice League. Same for Flash. Same for Wonder Woman. Same for J'onn. Same for Thor. Same for Surfer. Same for literally every character that doesn't use powers in CBR style.

It doesn't mean we dismiss their fights.

Relative fight comparisons count - both solo and against teams, otherwise forum discussions would all be about math.

To each his own though,

But if you want to go math style, Black Adam blitzes the shit out of Beta Ray Bill 10/10.

^^^

Bill one-shotting Adam is laughable. Adam has taken blows from Onimar Synn who is far superior to Bill.

Originally posted by leonidas
absolutely.
No, seriously?

How many times have we been over the whole WW3 Adam thing?

He gad the power of 7 gods.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
They jobbed. Yes indeed.

Firestorm was there, after all, and he's one-shot KO'd Adam in the past:
http://i.imgur.com/mITcOGf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fNpJuXG.jpg

he

They did fight like absolute retards though.

Guy's strategy was "bury him".

Alan Scott's trying to armbar him for ****s sake.

Poor bill

Originally posted by Anadrol1
Poor bill


naw its competitive

Originally posted by krisblaze

Alan Scott's trying to armbar him for ****s sake.
Hey, it worked on Surfer!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well....thread DOES say WW3 BA...

Only because Zack likes to jack off to his own threads.

There are no direct comparisons you idiot, they are from separate universes. All you do talk stupidity about Marvel characters being weaker than D.C. characters thread after thread. It isn't true and never will be no matter how much flatus emits from your jaws. The only thing dumber is your angry bald avatar.

Who are you even talking to? Philo?

Talk about meltdown.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Who are you even talking to? Philo?

He's the guy who said there was a direct comparison, right?

Originally posted by Zack M


Talk about meltdown.

Agreed, your battle post was an epic meltdown. Didn't get the sweep you wanted, huh?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Agreed, your battle post was an epic meltdown.

You crazy.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
He's the guy who said there was a direct comparison, right?

I don't know. I just saw you double posting and not quoting and I was curious.

Originally posted by Zack M


Talk about meltdown.

Not helping.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Agreed, your battle post was an epic meltdown. Didn't get the sweep you wanted, huh?

Neither is that.

Kindly stay on topic, please.

@phil--you're right, i can't win a feat battle with adam in the sense we're talking because....bill's never been featured in that type of battle. not sure ss has treated bill like a nuisance though, nor that it would matter much as ss would take adam as well imo, more easily since the hammer gives bill an edge against ss adam wouldn't have.

i still think you need to take that battle, and others like it with a grain of salt because of how the others were portrayed in that scene. i respect your opinion more than most around here, we just put different weight on that scene. i mean galan was clowning with his firestorm post but firestorm what, tried tackling him?? the whole thing was pretty ludicrous in parts, as happens a lot in those types of scenes. i still think this would be close. the speed issue is a big one, but bill handled ss at speed. always tough arguing dc speed against marvel-style bricks, admittedly, but if these 2 squared off i don't think speed would be the decisive factor--at least not all the time. in a single fight scenario i would likely take adam, but out of 10 i think this would be really close. /shrug

Bill didn't handle SS at speed. He was basically stationary compared to him.
Surfer was the one who operated at speed when chasing skuttlebutt.
Bill should be much slower than Adam since he technically has no superspeed.
Adam is stronger and more durable. Bill is more versatile. Speed kills versatility though.

Since we're relegating to that storyline alone, based on that one particular performance; Adam smashes Bill like Conor McGregor vs a toddler with down syndrome.
There was many characters above Bill in that team he was streamrolling.

Originally posted by Juntai
Since we're relegating to that storyline alone, based on that one particular performance; Adam smashes Bill like Conor McGregor vs a toddler with down syndrome.
There was many characters above Bill in that team he was streamrolling.
Agree WW3 BA winning this thread. Curious though, who were the characters above Bill in that team?

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil--you're right, i can't win a feat battle with adam in the sense we're talking because....bill's never been featured in that type of battle. not sure ss has treated bill like a nuisance though, nor that it would matter much as ss would take adam as well imo, more easily since the hammer gives bill an edge against ss adam wouldn't have.

i still think you need to take that battle, and others like it with a grain of salt because of how the others were portrayed in that scene. i respect your opinion more than most around here, we just put different weight on that scene. i mean galan was clowning with his firestorm post but firestorm what, tried tackling him?? the whole thing was pretty ludicrous in parts, as happens a lot in those types of scenes. i still think this would be close. the speed issue is a big one, but bill handled ss at speed. always tough arguing dc speed against marvel-style bricks, admittedly, but if these 2 squared off i don't think speed would be the decisive factor--at least not all the time. in a single fight scenario i would likely take adam, but out of 10 i think this would be really close. /shrug Don't get me wrong, leo, I get your point of view - the other characters were definitely not using their abilities to their fullest potential. But that type of reasoning wouldn't get use nowhere, since comic fights are never even close to showing to full capabilities of the characters - and when you have a dozen heroes in a few pages of fighting, that will never happen. Do we dismiss Superboy Prime's showings and standing within the power hierarchy, just because the 100+ characters fighting him weren't all going CBR on him? Do we dismiss all of Superman's fights just because he isn't portrayed as Flash-lite with planet moving strength? etc.

Bill has nothing to show himself, in his entire history, as being favorite against even a fraction of those teams. Black Adam was not only beating them en-masse, but this isn't a one-off showing - his entire history is quite literally taking on teams of heroes that many would individually give Bill good fights or win, and winning.

PS:
I'd give Black Adam 6-7/10 against Silver Surfer.
Surfer doesn't have combat speed above Spiderman, nevermind Black Adam who is in Jay Garrick's tier. Nevertheless, the Bill/Surfer fight showed nothing pertaining to combat speed.

Not that I disagree with the overall outcome, but it is worth noting that Surfer only gained the advantage over Bill after cheap-shotting him with his board:
https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280227_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-004.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280248_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-005.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280266_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-006.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280283_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-008.jpg

They were relative equals beforehand, it seemed. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Not that I disagree with the overall outcome, but it is worth noting that Surfer only gained the advantage over Bill after cheap-shotting him with his board:
https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280227_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-004.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280248_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-005.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280266_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-006.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/33280283_Beta_Ray_Bill_-_Godhunter_002-008.jpg

They were relative equals beforehand, it seemed. /shrug

Well, on that note, Surfer was casually trying to talk him out of it, and was apologizing as he beat him down and left him in the fetus position. I wouldn't want to break down the fight further for not propping up Surfer too much but I think it's suffice to say that he came off as superior, with the added parts that:

a). Stormbreaker easily handles Surfer's blasts
b). Two full on charged Stormbreaker blasts put Surfer on his ass none of the worse, while a board to the head and two punches put Bill in the fetal position.

Let's just say if I was a BRB fan I wouldn't ever bring this up.

Oh it is definitely a crap showing after Bill was blindsided by the board. I am more just looking at what happened before said cheap-shot. /shrug

But yeah, it is a ridiculous scene either way. I am just glad that Bill has enough feats to place it on the backburner as PIS or whathaveyou.... But as is always the case, people(not you) will always focus on the lows, and never even consider the highs -- or even averages for that matter. Oh well, such is the way of things. ermm



Anywho, Adam does win here.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh it is definitely a crap showing after Bill was blindsided by the board. I am more just looking at what happened before said cheap-shot.

But yeah, it is a ridiculous scene either way. I am just glad that Bill has enough feats to place it on the backburner as PIS or whathaveyou.... But as is always the case, people(not you) will always focus on the lows, and never even consider the highs -- or even averages for that matter.

Oh well. Such is the way of things... srug
I, too, defended it with the board to the head back when it came out, if only because the showing was really stupid in the Thor/Surfer context . The writer obviously intended to show Surfer > Bill .

Speaking of fights, I gave up Marvel a while ago, but I heart he fought the kid Nova. How did that go?

It was pretty respectable to Bill from what I recall... Can't remember the particulars, but Bill had to dive into stars to obtain a piece of weaponry or somesuch. So that was also cool.

Bill and Nova was a non-fight.

Surfer hitting someone with the board in the back of the head happens a lot. He's been the hardcore championship belt holder for decades

@phil: a couple questions: if you think he was really that far above those others, how was it that hawkman and alan would have taken him out had they not stopped? if hawkman could do that to adam with Alan's mace, bill could do worse with the hammer imo, given how strong bill is....

and i'm curious: you think had superman showed up to tackle him alone adam would have wrecked him too? saying he'd wreck bill is...saying an awful lot imo. I mean the dude has some really good showings. it's the same as saying he'd wreck thor, essentially. I don't see that happening, personally.

re: the prime issue: imo that was a completely different case because the heroes were not holding back and prime was actually killing many of them. against adam, he smacked around some of the bigger guns who were holding back and blatantly not fighting at their best. who do you think was the single biggest threat he actually beat? alan? who with hawkman also had the chance to take him out... jonn? well, jonn is tough but...he's jonn. I sort of had the same argument with mindless hulk recently against a slew of avengers. he smacked them around some, they held back and it was a good showing, but not the showing some claim it to be imo.

in saying he's taken on whole teams that have individuals who would beat bill....I dunno man. there's some context to most of his fights with the jsa and when marvel steps in he's able to handle adam most of the time. just sounds like you're placing adam too far above a guy who's beaten thor more than once. without marvel, ww or superman (not even flash or hal were present) I just see this being more ninja law than not. sorry man, pretty sure we won't see eye to eye this time around because I still see this as being a close fight overall.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Bill and Nova was a non-fight. Indeed:
https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284247_Nova_v513.NOW-007.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284269_Nova_v513.NOW-008.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284291_Nova_v513.NOW-009.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284317_Nova_v513.NOW-010.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284339_Nova_v513.NOW-011.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284365_Nova_v513.NOW-012.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284390_Nova_v513.NOW-013.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284423_Nova_v513.NOW-014.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284442_Nova_v513.NOW-015.jpg https://s6d2.turboimg.net/t/33284482_Nova_v513.NOW-016.jpg



And here is the star-diving feat I mentioned:
http://i.imgur.com/G0QaISF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4RqbbLF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QSVJlYh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tbYxewh.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: a couple questions: if you think he was really that far above those others, how was it that hawkman and alan would have taken him out had they not stopped? if hawkman could do that to adam with Alan's mace, bill could do worse with the hammer imo, given how strong bill is....

and i'm curious: you think had superman showed up to tackle him alone adam would have wrecked him too? saying he'd wreck bill is...saying an awful lot imo. I mean the dude has some really good showings. it's the same as saying he'd wreck thor, essentially. I don't see that happening, personally.

re: the prime issue: imo that was a completely different case because the heroes were not holding back and prime was actually killing many of them. against adam, he smacked around some of the bigger guns who were holding back and blatantly not fighting at their best. who do you think was the single biggest threat he actually beat? alan? who with hawkman also had the chance to take him out... jonn? well, jonn is tough but...he's jonn. I sort of had the same argument with mindless hulk recently against a slew of avengers. he smacked them around some, they held back and it was a good showing, but not the showing some claim it to be imo.

in saying he's taken on whole teams that have individuals who would beat bill....I dunno man. there's some context to most of his fights with the jsa and when marvel steps in he's able to handle adam most of the time. just sounds like you're placing adam too far above a guy who's beaten thor more than once. without marvel, ww or superman (not even flash or hal were present) I just see this being more ninja law than not. sorry man, pretty sure we won't see eye to eye this time around because I still see this as being a close fight overall.
That's anything but a normal mace. Alan Scott explicitly says "my power is in that mace." to Hawkman. Hawkman is weilding the Starheart against Adam there. And even then, after a few swings, Adam caught the last strike.

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: a couple questions: if you think he was really that far above those others, how was it that hawkman and alan would have taken him out had they not stopped? if hawkman could do that to adam with Alan's mace, bill could do worse with the hammer imo, given how strong bill is....
Leo... I didn't call you out on it the first time, given that I thought you'd refresh your memory by reading the story again, but you're grossly ignoring context.

Black Adam had just finished going through and beating the whole JSA, consisting of this line-up attacking him all at once:

https://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/33286949_Hawkman_2002-2006_025-006.jpg



https://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/33286968_Hawkman_2002-2006_025-010.jpg


After this point:

a). Alan puts his power in that mace
b). Black Adam was specifically already weakened from the battle beforehand .
c). Hawkman sucker punched him as he was not even concentrated on him and he was still standing after repeated shots

Scans for all 3 points:

https://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/33286973_Hawkman_2002-2006_025-012.jpghttps://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/33286976_Hawkman_2002-2006_025-013.jpghttps://s6d1.turboimg.net/t/33286982_Hawkman_2002-2006_025-014.jpg

And this is supposed to not be a good showing for Black Adam?
The same Hawkman who has broken Despero's teeth, with his normal-not-Alan Scott powered one? Getting free shots at a weakened Adam, who is not even focused on him?

C'mon, leo. Let's be reasonable.

Originally posted by zopzop
Of course if WW was there it'd be over. Lasso, command him to speak the magic word, fight over.

But that doesn't mean BRB would do just as well in Adam's place. Like I said, Martian Manhunter was attacking his mind while this was going on and Adam resisted. BRB has been owned by 'psychic pirates' on at least 2 different occasions on panel. It was a one shot both times too.

MM and everyone jobber to him, what are you not getting? If Bill went HAM, the planet wouldn't survive.

@philo, which of course was after beating most of those teams individually, from the Outsiders, to Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, and killing millions of people before they eventually all caught up to him and got beat down at once.

And then they had have Captain Marvel and Zatanna and the other mystics do a complete Deus Ex finisher on him.

Originally posted by krisblaze
WW3 Adam had the power of an additional god, and the righteous fury of a man out to massacre a country in the middle east.

Bill is dead.

Bill took an awful lot of abuse in Godkiller, and especially Stormbreaker though.

Standing in the middle of exploding moons and planets, Power Cosmic death grip on his naked back, being pancaked fly swatted by Galactus (Who can punch In Betweener to effect)..

He can probably take whatever Adam dish's out long enough to hammer nuke him.

The rest:

Originally posted by leonidas
and i'm curious: you think had superman showed up to tackle him alone adam would have wrecked him too? saying he'd wreck bill is...saying an awful lot imo. I mean the dude has some really good showings. it's the same as saying he'd wreck thor, essentially. I don't see that happening, personally. No, Superman wouldn't have been wrecked - one of the main points of WWIII was what would happen if the Superman wasn't there . Disaster ensued. When you see Black Adam repeatedly plowing through the JSA, it's definitely not far-fetched to think he'd beat the shit out of Bill.

Originally posted by leonidas
who do you think was the single biggest threat he actually beat? alan? who with hawkman also had the chance to take him out... jonn? well, jonn is tough but...he's jonn. I sort of had the same argument with mindless hulk recently against a slew of avengers. he smacked them around some, they held back and it was a good showing, but not the showing some claim it to be imo. Power Girl is physically at least as formidable as Wonder Woman, as stated by Diana herself, and Black Adam has wrecked her fiercely. I could easily argue Supergirl or Power Girl vs Beta Ray Bill on this forum, and I'm sure I would be quite convincing. Any of the Green Lanterns I could make it a good fight, 1v1, if put against Bill. J'onn has his ups and downs, but he has the showings to make it a fight against any top tier.

That's five characters that I could argue against Bill that Black Adam has beaten alongside more than a dozen others

Originally posted by Juntai
@philo, which of course was after beating most of those teams individually, from the Outsiders, to Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, and killing millions of people before they eventually all caught up to him and got beat down at once.


One of the points that gets massively overlooked is how much fighting Adam had done up to the end, and he was still beating whole teams of high-powered beings.

Lol, you can argue that all you want, but the problem is you'd be eternally wrong. Powergirl on the level of Bill? That's the problem with you D.C. boys, you are delusional when it comes to power levels.

I totally agree that Adam wrecks Bill(along with pretty much any herald you can think of), and I am certainly not trying to take away from his showing in WWIII, but lets be honest: if that team would have actually *used* the power(s) at their disposal --as opposed to just physically dogpiling him and whatnot-- he would have been utterly decimated with very little effort. It is absolutely still a showing that we need to consider when gauging Adam, but I really hope that no one honestly believes his power is actually superior to the combined power(s) of all of the characters he was up against. /shrug

*The inverse ninja law certainly isn't limited to this scene, mind you. It just really stands out to me here due to the stupidity displayed by pretty much every character on the field, EXCEPT Adam.

Originally posted by Galan007
I totally agree that Adam wrecks Bill(along with pretty much any herald you can think of), and I am certainly not trying to take away from his showing in WWIII, but lets be honest: if that team would have actually *used* the power(s) at their disposal --as opposed to just physically dogpiling him and whatnot-- he would have been utterly decimated with very little effort. It is absolutely still a showing that we need to consider when gauging Adam, but I really hope that no one honestly believes his power is actually superior to the combined power(s) of all of the characters he was up against. /shrug

*The inverse ninja law certainly isn't limited to this scene, mind you. It just really stands out to me here due to the stupidity displayed by pretty much every character on the field, EXCEPT Adam. Oh, I agree that a theoretical effective use of powers would have beaten him , without having to resort to turning him back into normal human , but it doesn't take away the intent of the writer within that arc, which is that they had to resort to that solution, which speaks great lengths about the status of Adam with the DCU hierarchy. There's close to zero characters in comics not named Superboy Prime who get that respect. And Black Adam gets it repeatedly against the combined JSA .

Either way, the bottom line is:
Originally posted by Galan007
Adam wrecks Bill(along with pretty much any herald you can think of)

Adam would have wrecked Superman, too.

In his own title, shortly before WW III the point was made that a fighting mad Superman couldn't even move Adam out of the center of his city.

Supes certainly got his licks in, but didn't look nearly as impressive as you'd expect against someone who WAS.NOT.FIGHTING.BACK.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Lol, you can argue that all you want, but the problem is you'd be eternally wrong. Powergirl on the level of Bill? That's the problem with you D.C. boys, you are delusional when it comes to power levels.

PG is close to Wonder Woman's level, at best.

And the problem here in this thread, is while the combined heroes didn't use their powers effectively, Beta Ray Bill HAS in his own series.

As tough as Adam is, how would he stack up against a full on blitz from Stormbreaker, slamming into his back, followed by a big long energy blast, followed by being slammed into the moon? And then hit with enough force to BREAK the moon?

Because this all happened in Stormbreaker. Frankly, at the time Bill outshown Thor by a LOT, and it wasn't until the God Butcher arc that the balance shifted back in the Odinsons favor (IMO).

like I said, we're not going to see eye to eye on this one i'm afraid. no disrespect, I just think this was a case of spotlight power.

galan is right--had the group fought effectively, adam would have been crushed by that group. we've seen b&t thor beating the watch+ss+strange (or was strange after the gem...?) we've seen mindless hulk beating all the avengers, we've seen hal go crazy and slaughter hosts of gl's and seen support he could single-handedly beat the league. in exiles ss went crazy and couldn't be stopped. king hyperion is another alternate example. I guess I lump ww3 adam in with all that--great showings against large collections of characters that seem really impressive but those they fight just never seem to fight all that well, to say the least.

but then you go ahead and say you don't think, given all this, that superman would be counted among those he'd have wrecked? I 100% agree with you, btw: superman would most certainly NOT have been wrecked. or he would have gotten po'd and stepped up and stopped adam. or marvel would have. and if I believe THEY would have/could have, I believe this fight would be close, as would fights between this adam and any legit high herald. /shrug

again, all my opinion, but it's weird we can agree on one piece, and be so disparate in our other beliefs.

galan, jun, you think adam would have destroyed superman had he shown up and gone 1on1? the way adam's being talked about, it seems almost certain that to accept this showing at face value would imply a belief that he would take down superman, no?

Originally posted by cdtm
PG is close to Wonder Woman's level, at best. Comics disagree with you. It's the other way around.

Physically, Power Girl is at least as fast and strong as Wonder Woman.

Diana: "She's at least as fast and as strong as I am

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2337226-wonder_woman_041_12.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
As tough as Adam is, how would he stack up against a full on blitz from Stormbreaker, slamming into his back, followed by a big long energy blast, followed by being slammed into the moon? And then hit with enough force to BREAK the moon?

Because this all happened in Stormbreaker. Frankly, at the time Bill outshown Thor by a LOT, and it wasn't until the God Butcher arc that the balance shifted back in the Odinsons favor (IMO).

Space cheese is irrelevant to fights. Breaking moons is as relevant to high-heralds as bullet timing is to street levelers - i.e. not at all. Relative fight performances are what matters most.

Also a word of advice - never go using space cheese against DC characters, where rookie green lanterns survive black holes. This won't go well for you.

Originally posted by leonidas
like I said, we're not going to see eye to eye on this one i'm afraid. no disrespect

No prob, we have different criteria on which we judged the fight.

Given that there were dozens of members attacking him, I'm not much into choreography as I am in intent of the writer, which is consistent with his history of taking it to high powered teams. You're on the other side of the table.


Originally posted by leonidas
galan is right--had the group fought effectively, adam would have been crushed by that group. we've seen b&t thor beating the watch+ss+strange (or was strange after the gem...?) we've seen mindless hulk beating all the avengers, we've seen hal go crazy and slaughter hosts of gl's and seen support he could single-handedly beat the league. in exiles ss went crazy and couldn't be stopped. king hyperion is another alternate example. I guess I lump ww3 adam in with all that--great showings against large collections of characters that seem really impressive but those they fight just never seem to fight all that well, to say the least.

but then you go ahead and say you don't think, given all this, that superman would be counted among those he'd have wrecked? I 100% agree with you, btw: superman would most certainly NOT have been wrecked. or he would have gotten po'd and stepped up and stopped adam. or marvel would have. and if I believe THEY would have/could have, I believe this fight would be close, as would fights between this adam and any legit high herald. /shrug

again, all my opinion, but it's weird we can agree on one piece, and be so disparate in our other beliefs.


The had they fought to the best of their abilities can apply to any fight, even individual fights, and it would still be accurate, but that doesn't mean we ignore what's on page because it's not the way we would have written it. Superman wouldn't get beaten because he has similar showings to Adam - it's as simple as that. Bill doesn't.

The best part is that Black Adam doesn't even need the WW3 showing to prove he wins . He has other showings similar to that in his 'normal' state of mind that serve the same purpose, and they're not as riddled in 'the other characters didn't use their power'.

Anyway, we're beating a dead horse and going into circles. I disagree with your examples, but it would only deviate the discussion to how there's context to Hal, how alternate realities have different powerlevels so it's irrelevant etc. And it wouldn't really advance this part of the discussion.

Couldn't disagree with Philo's take on feats more.

Whether catching a bullet, or pressing the weight of the Earth for five days straight, these "cheese" feats most definately do and "should" matter, because they're one of the few measurable things we have.

I don't know of a single forum that doesn't weigh "cheese" when debating. That's kind of the only thing that keeps this from becoming a popularity contest where Batman and Wolverine beat everyone because they're more popular then 99% of all comics characters combined (And I love me a good Batkick joke, but Batman should NEVER block a punch from a guy who can total a skyscraper. Which he has.)

Power Girl has also after coming out of a mind control daze got essentially sucker punched by a pissed off Wonder Woman then caught Diana's punch (while she was still on the ground IIRC). Among a few other things. Wonder Woman's skill can close the gap, but physically she's inferior going by comparosons. Despite all the hype Pre-FLASHPOINT Wonder Woman got as "strongest female in DC" she's behind the Kyrptonian ladies.

Originally posted by leonidas
galan, jun, you think adam would have destroyed superman had he shown up and gone 1on1? the way adam's being talked about, it seems almost certain that to accept this showing at face value would imply a belief that he would take down superman, no? When the poster child of DC shows up, he is going to put ANY character in the corner -- especially if he is the last/only person left to stop said threat(s)... Cosmological status be damned.

As I've said many, many times over the years: when he wants/needs to be, Superman > ALL. If nothing else, he has certainly proven that much over the years.

Originally posted by Galan007
When the poster child of DC shows up, he is going to put ANY character in the corner -- especially if he is the last/only person left to stop said threat(s)... Cosmological status be damned.

As I've said this many, many times over the years: when he wants/needs to be, Superman > ALL. If nothing else, he has certainly proven that much over the years.

Well, yeah. He's pretty much the godfather of modern comics (The Greatest Fan Film Ever Made is all about that.)

I guess you could say Superman "should" lose like the rest. Even if DC wouldn't let it happen.

And, on a board debate, he "should" lose like the rest, as an official no limits falicy by DC doesn't make for very exciting debating on the boards. (Plus rules trying to circumvent that and such..)

But hey, please come to Anime vs and the Superman vs Goku thread if you want to seriously argue the no limits clause. (Not that I think you "are", but in that case I'd be willing to make an exception..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Adam would have wrecked Superman, too.

In his own title, shortly before WW III the point was made that a fighting mad Superman couldn't even move Adam out of the center of his city.

Supes certainly got his licks in, but didn't look nearly as impressive as you'd expect against someone who WAS.NOT.FIGHTING.BACK. I agree. The fact is Superman didn't do what Adam did but you won't see that stop Philo from proclaiming as much.

Exactly. Adam schooled him one on one without even going all out. Adam would beat Superman minus the amp from WW3. With it he'd break Superman.

Originally posted by cdtm
Adam would have wrecked Superman, too.

In his own title, shortly before WW III the point was made that a fighting mad Superman couldn't even move Adam out of the center of his city.

Supes certainly got his licks in, but didn't look nearly as impressive as you'd expect against someone who WAS.NOT.FIGHTING.BACK. When Superman started actually trying, Adam backed down.
He was still ramping up, and was meanwhile rushing around and saving people during the encounter.
The entire point, including the tagline of the entire 52 event, was that WW3 happened because Superman wasn't there.

Originally posted by leonidas
like I said, we're not going to see eye to eye on this one i'm afraid. no disrespect, I just think this was a case of spotlight power.

galan is right--had the group fought effectively, adam would have been crushed by that group. we've seen b&t thor beating the watch+ss+strange (or was strange after the gem...?) we've seen mindless hulk beating all the avengers, we've seen hal go crazy and slaughter hosts of gl's and seen support he could single-handedly beat the league. in exiles ss went crazy and couldn't be stopped. king hyperion is another alternate example. I guess I lump ww3 adam in with all that--great showings against large collections of characters that seem really impressive but those they fight just never seem to fight all that well, to say the least.

but then you go ahead and say you don't think, given all this, that superman would be counted among those he'd have wrecked? I 100% agree with you, btw: superman would most certainly NOT have been wrecked. or he would have gotten po'd and stepped up and stopped adam. or marvel would have. and if I believe THEY would have/could have, I believe this fight would be close, as would fights between this adam and any legit high herald. /shrug

again, all my opinion, but it's weird we can agree on one piece, and be so disparate in our other beliefs.

galan, jun, you think adam would have destroyed superman had he shown up and gone 1on1? the way adam's being talked about, it seems almost certain that to accept this showing at face value would imply a belief that he would take down superman, no?

Had Wonderwoman not snapped Max Lord's neck, Superman would have done much worse.
In fact, when Booster used Time Travel and saved Ted Kord, mind controlled Superman conquered Earth, off panel.

Originally posted by Juntai
Had Wonderwoman not snapped Max Lord's neck, Superman would have done much worse.
In fact, when Booster used Time Travel and saved Ted Kord, mind controlled Superman conquered Earth, off panel. Speculation and an alternate reality.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculation and an alternate reality.

The sole voice of reason in an irrational world. Keep on keeping on, my friend.

Originally posted by cdtm
The sole voice of reason in an irrational world. Keep on keeping on, my friend.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You are jealous of me. Always have been.

Don't even know why he said that. Superman was ready to attack Wonder Woman and she still had the speed to take off her tiara and slice Superman throat. She could've pressed her attack and ended it but she put that attention on Max lord while he held his throat. His post was all wrong...Juanti.

Preach.

@phil: cool.

one thing that stood out though, and it's off topic but we're already there so..... I agree lack of feats for bill makes it tough here for me. my argument DOES hinge on some abc logic, but in this case I think it's pretty well founded, namely comparing thor and bill. you think adam would destroy thor as well, even though thor DEF has the feats to match adam? legit curious. I gte if you say thor>bill, the 2 aren't interchangeable, and you'd be right to point it out. i'm just curious if this were thor if things would be viewed differently.

Originally posted by Galan007
When the poster child of DC shows up, he is going to put ANY character in the corner -- especially if he is the last/only person left to stop said threat(s)... Cosmological status be damned.

As I've said many, many times over the years: when he wants/needs to be, Superman > ALL. If nothing else, he has certainly proven that much over the years.

fair enough. superman is a special case, granted. but you really think that adam in that arc would ruin guys like ss and thor, a really po'd hulk? or from dc someone like marvel or an out for blood Diana? (and I know there has been some indication that pg/ww are pretty close, but i'd think most who knew the 2 would take ww for a heavy majority--ww seems to be damn near a match for marvel.....and pg seems nowhere CLOSE to adam in several confrontations....) I dunno man, like I said to phil, I just don't see it, and I could genuinely say I could see other high heralds doing something very similar. (for example, I think exiles ss was shown that way to show exactly what 616 ss COULD do if he really let loose--he's just way too good to do it....) but meh, maybe it's just me. /shrug

Originally posted by cdtm
The sole voice of reason in an irrational world. Keep on keeping on, my friend.

sole voice? I happen to think i'm perfectly reasonable.

Originally posted by cdtm
The sole voice of reason in an irrational world. Keep on keeping on, my friend. Also a false voice.
It was the prime timeline the entire time, which had become malleable because of the Crisis due to Superboy Prime punching reality. The only change was that Ted, being saved, didn't die, and the heros all fell to Max. Then, it was changed back, from that same moment. It's very explicit in the Booster comics that his endeavors in time travel were not different universes, they were all entirely in a single one. Everything prior to Superboy Prime was solidified time he couldn't alter in this universe. Hence the issue where he gets shitcanned by Joker, because he couldn't change it. The ONE universe his story takes place in had solidified this moment in history.

Originally posted by Juntai
Also a false voice.
It was the prime timeline the entire time, which had become malleable because of the Crisis due to Superboy Prime punching reality. The only change was that Ted, being saved, didn't die, and the heros all fell to Max. Then, it was changed back, from that same moment. It's very explicit in the Booster comics that his endeavors in time travel were not different universes, they were all entirely in a single one. Everything prior to Superboy Prime was solidified time he couldn't alter in this universe. Hence the issue where he gets shitcanned by Joker, because he couldn't change it. The ONE universe his story takes place in had solidified this moment in history.

The fact that "our" Batman knew about it, solidifies that it's the same universe, iirc.

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: cool.

one thing that stood out though, and it's off topic but we're already there so..... I agree lack of feats for bill makes it tough here for me. my argument DOES hinge on some abc logic, but in this case I think it's pretty well founded, namely comparing thor and bill. you think adam would destroy thor as well, even though thor DEF has the feats to match adam? legit curious. I gte if you say thor>bill, the 2 aren't interchangeable, and you'd be right to point it out. i'm just curious if this were thor if things would be viewed differently.



fair enough. superman is a special case, granted. but you really think that adam in that arc would ruin guys like ss and thor, a really po'd hulk? or from dc someone like marvel or an out for blood Diana? (and I know there has been some indication that pg/ww are pretty close, but i'd think most who knew the 2 would take ww for a heavy majority--ww seems to be damn near a match for marvel.....and pg seems nowhere CLOSE to adam in several confrontations....) I dunno man, like I said to phil, I just don't see it, and I could genuinely say I could see other high heralds doing something very similar. (for example, I think exiles ss was shown that way to show exactly what 616 ss COULD do if he really let loose--he's just way too good to do it....) but meh, maybe it's just me. /shrug Once again, its a very explicit showing. It is without questioned biased towards him, but in this arc, Adam was full on skyfather, or more.
He was trouncing a team that had Alan Scott and Thunderbolt and like a dozen other top tier characters.

I mean shit, Alan Scott was easily trans or skyfather in those days.
He went toe to toe with a crazy amped up Mordru
And a Genie enhanced Ultra-Humanite that iirc, also had Nabu's powers.

But this was meant to be an example of a Superman level enemy finally just losing it.

And yes, some members of that team should be able to stop Adam, particularly among the JSA members of that roster but consistently, they are unable to both here and in the JSA title.

This is the lineup that stopped Adam.

Jakeem and the Thunderbolt
Stargirl
Firestorm
Stripes.
Dr Light.
Steel.
Green Arrow.
Red Arrow.
Green Lantern Guy Gardner
Wonder Girl
Hawkman
Hawk Girl
Geoforce
Donna Troy wearing magical armor.
Power Girl.
Flash - Jay Garrick
Wildcat
Obsidian
Dr Midnight
Plastic Man.
Sand.
Bulleteer.
Guardian
Atom Smasher
Vixen
Offspring
Black Canary
Green Lantern Jade
Hourman
Alan Scott
Black Lightning
Green Lantern John Stewart.
Captain Marvel.
Natasha Irons
Shining Knight
Liberty Bell
Zatana
Zatara
Phantom Stranger

And a handful of others I'm having a tough time placing.
And that's just the final battle, so not including the other Titans, Doom Patrol, Booster Girl, Great Ten, he encountered before that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
The fact that "our" Batman knew about it, solidifies that it's the same universe, iirc.

Are you talking about when Batman told Booster he knew about his Killing Joke intervention attempts?

That's a bit different then Maxwell Lord or Brother Eye conquoring the world.

Adam was not full on skyfather. The absurdity of some of these claims is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Juntai
This is the lineup that stopped Adam.

Jakeem and the Thunderbolt
Stargirl
Firestorm
Stripes.
Dr Light.
Steel.
Green Arrow.
Red Arrow.
Green Lantern Guy Gardner
Wonder Girl
Hawkman
Hawk Girl
Geoforce
Donna Troy wearing magical armor.
Power Girl.
Flash - Jay Garrick
Wildcat
Obsidian
Dr Midnight
Plastic Man.
Sand.
Bulleteer.
Guardian
Atom Smasher
Vixen
Offspring
Black Canary
Green Lantern Jade
Hourman
Alan Scott
Black Lightning
Green Lantern John Stewart.
Captain Marvel.
Natasha Irons
Shining Knight
Liberty Bell
Zatana
Zatara
Phantom Stranger

And a handful of others I'm having a tough time placing.
And that's just the final battle, so not including the other Titans, Doom Patrol, Booster Girl, Great Ten, he encountered before that.

Beastly.

Originally posted by leonidas
fair enough. superman is a special case, granted. but you really think that adam in that arc would ruin guys like ss and thor, a really po'd hulk? or from dc someone like marvel or an out for blood Diana? (and I know there has been some indication that pg/ww are pretty close, but i'd think most who knew the 2 would take ww for a heavy majority--ww seems to be damn near a match for marvel.....and pg seems nowhere CLOSE to adam in several confrontations....) I dunno man, like I said to phil, I just don't see it, and I could genuinely say I could see other high heralds doing something very similar. (for example, I think exiles ss was shown that way to show exactly what 616 ss COULD do if he really let loose--he's just way too good to do it....) but meh, maybe it's just me. /shrug Oh, I see what you're saying now.

Yes, if someone like Superman fully cut loose and went rotten, I definitely believe he could match(if not exceed) Adam's showings in WWIII.

Originally posted by cdtm
Couldn't disagree with Philo's take on feats more.

Whether catching a bullet, or pressing the weight of the Earth for five days straight, these "cheese" feats most definately do and "should" matter, because they're one of the few measurable things we have. If you agree that street levelers are supersonic, or that rookie GLs/Superman/anybody who has gone through blackholes are literally invulnerable , then this is just as an absurd position as that of 'Batman can beat the JLA with no prep because the showings support that'.

This isn't a neither/or type of situation - we take into account powersets, PIS etc. and not just go full 'math for every feat is what matters'.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Power Girl has also after coming out of a mind control daze got essentially sucker punched by a pissed off Wonder Woman then caught Diana's punch (while she was still on the ground IIRC). Among a few other things. Wonder Woman's skill can close the gap, but physically she's inferior going by comparosons. Despite all the hype Pre-FLASHPOINT Wonder Woman got as "strongest female in DC" she's behind the Kyrptonian ladies.

Even in New 52, Supergirl was explicitly as strong and fast as Wonder Woman.

Originally posted by Juntai
When Superman started actually trying, Adam backed down.
He was still ramping up, and was meanwhile rushing around and saving people during the encounter.
The entire point, including the tagline of the entire 52 event, was that WW3 happened because Superman wasn't there.



The minute Superman started ramping up his attacks, BA turned his back and trusted Superman to stop due to his hero-status.

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: cool.

one thing that stood out though, and it's off topic but we're already there so..... I agree lack of feats for bill makes it tough here for me. my argument DOES hinge on some abc logic, but in this case I think it's pretty well founded, namely comparing thor and bill. you think adam would destroy thor as well, even though thor DEF has the feats to match adam? legit curious. I gte if you say thor>bill, the 2 aren't interchangeable, and you'd be right to point it out. i'm just curious if this were thor if things would be viewed differently.

I think Black Adam operates consistently at a level Thor operates ocasionally. Black Adam is on average a World War Hulk/Blood & Thunder Thor type of showing. People don't realize how insane that is. And that's not into account WWIII. I don't have Thor favorite against the JSA as many times as I have Black Adam. In that way, I'd give BA the nod over Thor more often than not.

Like I said, what BA consistently does is is reserved for very few characters in comics. Beta Ray Bill, by all evidence, is not among them.

Iirc it was implied that SG was slightly superior in the physical department.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Iirc it was implied that SG was slightly superior in the physical department. Wonder Woman states that they're matched in speed and strength :

http://i.imgur.com/nmkcbSf.jpg

Within the fight, she remarks that Diana is less strong than Superman, while complimenting her speed:

http://i.imgur.com/KDbQGka.jpg

Anyway, the bottom line is that Diana, Supergirl and Powergirl are roughly even in physical stats , and that's been consistently shown again and again.

For Black Adam to make short work of PG every time even when she has ridiculous backup is impressive as shit.

@phil: though I don't fully agree with adam's average (I see him being no more or less than billy on average, just more willing to kill) your point is fair enuff.

@jun: adam was operating at....skyfather levels? we will most certainly disagree by a LONG shot there i'm afraid....

@galan: this guy gets it.

@Philo-Your one of the most articulate, well written and obviusly educated posters on this site, which is why I'm so taken back by your one sided bias in all DC vs. Marvel threads. I am sure I could be wrong but you almost always give a DC character the stomp even when the two combatants are obvious peers. I just don't understand.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
@Philo-Your one of the most articulate, well written and obviusly educated posters on this site, which is why I'm so taken back by your one sided bias in all DC vs. Marvel threads. I am sure I could be wrong but you almost always give a DC character the stomp even when the two combatants are obvious peers. I just don't understand.

Yep. It's obvious.

This scan didn't state that Superman is stronger, she said she thought Diana would be stronger than Superman.

http://m.imgur.com/KDbQGka?r

For all we know, she could be saying they are equals. And Diana was holding back anyways.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
@Philo-Your one of the most articulate, well written and obviusly educated posters on this site, which is why I'm so taken back by your one sided bias in all DC vs. Marvel threads. I am sure I could be wrong but you almost always give a DC character the stomp even when the two combatants are obvious peers. I just don't understand. If somebody says something is 'obvious', I don't care for it unless they can argument it. If they can't argument, it's simple bias . I can argument each and every one of my opinions.

If I feel DC, as a whole, has more formidable characters , and if I can argument it, there's nothing wrong with that. If somebody feels the opposite, they should feel free and back up their view. Saying something is obvious doesn't make it so.

I don't care about ad hominems. I care about argument-based discussions. .

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
@Philo-Your one of the most articulate, well written and obviusly educated posters on this site, which is why I'm so taken back by your one sided bias in all DC vs. Marvel threads. I am sure I could be wrong but you almost always give a DC character the stomp even when the two combatants are obvious peers. I just don't understand. He is biased and won't even engage anyone on certain topics in a judged manner. Do not let him fool you. The lengths to which he's gone in the past to cherry pick and to inaccurately describe the totality of the appearances. Darthgoober threw an open ended challenge for the Surfer vs Superman who Phil says stomps the Surfer. He then wants to say based off the evidence but when it came down to it he wouldn't dare take goober on. Actions matter not words.

Nothing wrong with bias. Just make sure you can make it look gud.





Oh and lol at "skyfather" comments. wtf!?

i agree with phil: if someone presents open and fair information in an argument it is, by definition, NOT biased. bias inherently seeks to convince someone of a position by presenting information in a misleading way, by using half truths, cropped scans or omitting or refusing to accept contradictory information. there are definitely many posters here who do this on a regular basis. the best ones always show context or at least make mention of it and take it into account, at least most of the time.

Originally posted by zopzop
They really didn't though. Even if you believe that, he was being mindphucked by Martian Manhunter while they were wailing on him. This isn't the first time he's resisted TP either.


I could be thinking of a different fight, but it did seem that a whole bunch of heroes who were fighting him weren't fighting very creatively with their powers and they kinda just tried to dog pile him.

Originally posted by krisblaze
WW3 Adam had the power of an additional god, and the righteous fury of a man out to massacre a country in the middle east.

Bill is dead.

See this is something I've brought up in other threads with WW3 Adam and people would always tell me I was wrong and that he wasn't amped he just wasn't holding back.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Alan Scott's trying to armbar him for ****s sake.

Yep, and wasn't Alan also involved in a fight with Superboy Prime where he tried to scratch at him and bite him?

Originally posted by leonidas

@jun: adam was operating at....skyfather levels? we will most certainly disagree by a LONG shot there i'm afraid....

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Nothing wrong with bias. Just make sure you can make it look gud.





Oh and lol at "skyfather" comments. wtf!?
You guys can think what you want, but Adam was blazing a team with more than one trans/skyfather level players, including Alan and a Genie, a couple more GLs, a kryptoniam, a martian, 2 wonderwomen , a handful of ridiculous level mages. I mean I listed the group a couple posts ago.


Shit, a team 1/20 this formidable steamrolled Thanos like he was barely there in Assemble.

Originally posted by Juntai
You guys can think what you want, but Adam was blazing a team with more than one trans/skyfather level players, including Alan and a Genie, a couple more GLs, a kryptoniam, a martian, 2 wonderwomen , a handful of ridiculous level mages. I mean I listed the group a couple posts ago.


Shit, a team 1/20 this formidable steamrolled Thanos like he was barely there in Assemble. Thanos was weakened and Adam lost. They also clearly held back against Teth. Adam was also amped. Anything else I need to correct ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos was weakened and Adam lost. They also clearly held back against Teth. Adam was also amped. Anything else I need to correct ? Adam got Deux Ex'ed, not beaten down and stopped.

Thanos got absolutely smacked by a team that wouldn't stand a chance against this one.

False. Show me the scan in ww3 where it says he was amped.
It would be a curious thing not to mention through an entire event.

Sivana said in passing once in 52 that he was powered by seven gods. No one else said it, it was never referenced, or narrated or shown that he was amped in any way. And when Isis died, her power was not transferred to him. It was in her amulet. Which he used, alongside her power word during the Dark Ages storyline, which he didn't have in in WW3, and even so, her power was so miniscule next to his, that it ran out of power powering his form for a short time.

We chalk this up to error. He wasn't suddenly exclaiming extra gods lending him power. He wouldn't even know something like that.


So if you have any actual proof of an amp that happened; show it.

Try to stay on topic Quan, Shadowfyre and Carver.

Originally posted by carver9
This scan didn't state that Superman is stronger, she said she thought Diana would be stronger than Superman.

http://m.imgur.com/KDbQGka?r

For all we know, she could be saying they are equals. And Diana was holding back anyways.
Wut? She is saying she thought she would be stronger but didn't find her so strong.

Where is stronger than Superman comment?

That moment when I read a comment from a poster that is on ignore..

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/enough-internet-Dean-Winchester-supernatural.gif

Originally posted by Juntai
Adam got Deux Ex'ed, not beaten down and stopped.
Adam was taking an immense physical pounding aka his face. The art made it very obvious. His allies also held back. The comic actually pointed out that Adam wasn't the most powerful guy there further dispelling the idea he's a skyfather level in power. He simply attacked with reckless abandon and didn't pull his punches. He wasn't immune to their attacks. They took a huge toll.

Thanos was weakened by a plot device. When you're weakened that means you're not at your best. That's also one showing in a history of taking on teams of better opponents and most recently systematically handling them with ease.



. It was stated and retconned after the fact. He was amped. Isis. Undeniable.

This was stated in a comic so your refusal to accept it makes no difference to me. You're also ignoring his allies holding back while he did not. That's stated in the arc.

No, we accept the retcons comics give us we don't pick and choose what applies.

Originally posted by Juntai
Adam got Deux Ex'ed, not beaten down and stopped.

Thanos got absolutely smacked by a team that wouldn't stand a chance against this one.

False. Show me the scan in ww3 where it says he was amped.
It would be a curious thing not to mention through an entire event.

Sivana said in passing once in 52 that he was powered by seven gods. No one else said it, it was never referenced, or narrated or shown that he was amped in any way. And when Isis died, her power was not transferred to him. It was in her amulet. Which he used, alongside her power word during the Dark Ages storyline, which he didn't have in in WW3, and even so, her power was so miniscule next to his, that it ran out of power powering his form for a short time.

We chalk this up to error. He wasn't suddenly exclaiming extra gods lending him power. He wouldn't even know something like that.


So if you have any actual proof of an amp that happened; show it.

This ^. Everyone says he was amped during that arc but i remember no scene where it was referenced.

Originally posted by Phil
If somebody says something is 'obvious', I don't care for it unless they can argument it. If they can't argument, it's simple bias . I can argument each and every one of my opinions.

If I feel DC, as a whole, has more formidable characters , and if I can argument it, there's nothing wrong with that. If somebody feels the opposite, they should feel free and back up their view. Saying something is obvious doesn't make it so.

I don't care about ad hominems. I care about argument-based discussions. . ...Obviously.

heh.

and yeah, i don't believe he was amped either. not nearly enough evidence to support it. marvel even went to the gods to cut him off from his power and it was never mentioned, so i think he was just really really po'd... /shrug

@phil: dammit i wish i could quote that gif post.

Adam was just pissed/berserker; not externally amped.

We've seen how significantly a change in just a characters mindset can augment their powers. A great example is Superman vs. the Imperiex Probes. Supes goes from only being able to narrowly contend with a SINGLE Probe under his 'normal' mindset, to casually shredding through MULTIPLE Probes like fodder after he stopped holding back.

Even if he was amped. Isis has never shown to be his equal or anywhere near it. Granted she's superhuman but her powere came from that Amulet. Im curious how powerful some users rate her when she has no feats

Wait - haven't been reading this - people still think Adam was amped?

That was debunked years ago when nobody could provide any shred of proof or the slighted suggestion supporting the claim.

You could argue inverse ninja law, as you could with Imperiex probes, but there was definitely no explicit or implicit amp.

I wouldn't say there wasn't the slightest suggestion...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w284/airhikec001/blog/comics/pages/52v4_OolongAdam.gif

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I wouldn't say there wasn't the slightest suggestion...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w284/airhikec001/blog/comics/pages/52v4_OolongAdam.gif

Looking for that. Good find. That's the only reference correct?

That I know of.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Looking for that. Good find. That's the only reference correct?

No.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/COUNTDOWN46-PG02-03.jpg

Amped. As I said undeniable.

Originally posted by Delta1938
No.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/COUNTDOWN46-PG02-03.jpg

👍. Which goes to my previous statement about how powerful Isis was.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Even if he was amped. Isis has never shown to be his equal or anywhere near it. Granted she's superhuman but her powere came from that Amulet. Im curious how powerful some users rate her when she has no feats

Originally posted by Sin I AM
👍. Which goes to my previous statement about how powerful Isis was.

IIRC her brother power sharing with Adam damn near one-shot her.....by accident. So yeah, she was physically inferior to even a half-powered Black Adam. COUNTDOWN had Mary in awe of her power over nature, nothing mentioned of physical. Adam using her power didn't do anything impressive in his limited series after(though I can't remember whether the spell being effected by her body being incomplete effected the potency of the power from her or just how long his "charge" lasted). Black Adam would have been a bit stronger in WWIII, but all the narrative emphasis on his rage makes it pretty clear his performance was much more about that than the modest at best stat boost he'd get from Isis.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Amped. As I said undeniable.

The D.C.ers are still denying he was amped in 2017? This was settled years ago on multiple battle board cites. It's like the posters here are infected with the same virus.

Originally posted by Delta1938
IIRC her brother power sharing with Adam damn near one-shot her.....by accident. So yeah, she was physically inferior to even a half-powered Black Adam. COUNTDOWN had Mary in awe of her power over nature, nothing mentioned of physical. Adam using her power didn't do anything impressive in his limited series after(though I can't remember whether the spell being effected by her body being incomplete effected the potency of the power from her or just how long his "charge" lasted). Black Adam would have been a bit stronger in WWIII, but all the narrative emphasis on his rage makes it pretty clear his performance was much more about that than the modest at best stat boost he'd get from Isis.

So he was amped, thanks.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
The D.C.ers are still denying he was amped in 2017? This was settled years ago on multiple battle board cites. It's like the posters here are infected with the same virus.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
So he was amped, thanks.

You proved you need others to make your arguments for you, thanks, son.

Originally posted by Delta1938
IIRC her brother power sharing with Adam damn near one-shot her.....by accident. So yeah, she was physically inferior to even a half-powered Black Adam. COUNTDOWN had Mary in awe of her power over nature, nothing mentioned of physical. Adam using her power didn't do anything impressive in his limited series after(though I can't remember whether the spell being effected by her body being incomplete effected the potency of the power from her or just how long his "charge" lasted). Black Adam would have been a bit stronger in WWIII, but all the narrative emphasis on his rage makes it pretty clear his performance was much more about that than the modest at best stat boost he'd get from Isis.

Good post. She never really seemed powerful. And when she went crazy after her resurrection he only notable feat was killing/draining a group of humans. But im not sure if thats from faust corruption or something to do with adams powers

Originally posted by Delta1938
No.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/COUNTDOWN46-PG02-03.jpg Mary Marvel receives Black Adam's powers after Isis was successfully revived, just to highlight how wrong she is in this scan. Countdown was a mess.
This was all long after WW3 as well, where Adam did actually use ISIS power/powerword to fuel himself for a time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I wouldn't say there wasn't the slightest suggestion...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w284/airhikec001/blog/comics/pages/52v4_OolongAdam.gif


Already covered this;
Originally posted by Juntai

False. Show me the scan in ww3 where it says he was amped.
It would be a curious thing not to mention through an entire event.

Sivana said in passing once in 52 that he was powered by seven gods. No one else said it, it was never referenced, or narrated or shown that he was amped in any way. And when Isis died, her power was not transferred to him. It was in her amulet. Which he used, alongside her power word during the Dark Ages storyline, which he didn't have in in WW3, and even so, her power was so miniscule next to his, that it ran out of power powering his form for a short time.

We chalk this up to error. He wasn't suddenly exclaiming extra gods lending him power. He wouldn't even know something like that.


So if you have any actual proof of an amp that happened; show it.
It's just random error.

There was no amp. Not visibly, not mentioned, no narration, he recieved and used none of her abilities, nothing.

A random writing oversight.

Originally posted by Juntai
Mary Marvel receives Black Adam's powers after Isis was successfully revived, just to highlight how wrong she is in this scan. Countdown was a mess.
This was all long after WW3.

Where was Isis revived?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Where was Isis revived? In Black Adam Dark Age.
First Faust tried to res her, and the bones crumbled, but it turned out to be Dibney instead, and then later ressurected her and leaves with her.

The Mary Marvel being powerless and then granted Adam's power is after this chronologically in Countdown, as it takes place after Adam regains his power in Dark Age even though the two titles were coming out at the same time.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You proved you need others to make your arguments for you, thanks, son.

Of course. Like Vanguard, BAV doesn't actually read the material.

So we have a Sivana randomly saying seven instead of six back in 52.
And that's it.

No proof, nothing visible happening, no transference, no extra power or powers displayed, no narration, not a single reference through the WW3 event. Nothing. Only that he was an angry god.
Pretty crazy considering it was a couple issues of 52 and an entire Miniseries, and none of this is anywhere.

Literally nothing that says or shows he was amped.

Originally posted by Juntai
In Black Adam Dark Age.
First Faust tried to res her, and the bones crumbled, but it turned out to be Dibney instead, and then later ressurected her and leaves with her.

The Mary Marvel being powerless and then granted Adam's power is after this chronologically in Countdown, as it takes place after Adam regains his power in Dark Age even though the two titles were coming out at the same time.

I thought the first time faust revived her it was a ruse to trick adam? Then once adam was gone he revived her perfectly albeit under his control. She was that way for months before being freed. Then she went on a rampage drawing out the JSA. Shazam came back depowered both along with the batsons and turned em to stone

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I thought the first time faust revived her it was a ruse to trick adam? Then once adam was gone he revived her perfectly albeit under his control.

Yep. I just didn't need to go into all that detail to say Faust ressed her and left with her.
Point is, Adam has his power back and Isis was alive before Mary's random narration. Isis was alive already, and Mary had the bestowed power all the way through Final Crisis.

Originally posted by Delta1938
You proved you need others to make your arguments for you, thanks, son.

You proved you are more fanboy than you are rocket scientist. The denial you and your ilk engage in is priceless. Like I said, there is no question he was amped and anyone arguing that he wasn't at this point is a fool.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yep. I just didn't need to go into all that detail to say Faust ressed her and left with her.
Point is, Adam has his power back and Isis was alive before Mary's random narration. Isis was alive already, and Mary had the bestowed power all the way through Final Crisis.

No argument here. I didn't believe he was amped either. The narration simply suggested he was mad. Sorta like the whole WWH arc. Its not even a knock on the character considered what he was shown capable of

lol, who cares if Teth had Isis' power? Her power comes from him. It's not an amp, it's just him.

It's an amp.

Originally posted by Cogito
lol, who cares if Teth had Isis' power? Her power comes from him. It's not an amp, it's just him.

Well, you might not care, but who cares if you don't care? Black Adam was amped is a true statement that doesn't have to meet your approval.