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Where do you rank the following Versions of Luke in Lightsaber Combat, the Force and All-Out?

1. RotJ
2. DE
3. Black Fleet Trilogy
4. Vector Prime
5. TUF
6. DN
7. LotF
8. FotJ

RotJ - Vader-level
DE - DE Palpatine-level
Everyone else - DE Palpatine+

In the Force?

RotJ = Satele Shan level.

DE = Starkiller.

BFC = Revan/Exar Kun

VP = Darth Nihilis/ Novel Vitiate/Darth Krayt

TUF = RotS Darth Sidious/Valkorion/Yoda

DN = RotJ Darth Sidious

Everything else = Slightly below peak DE Sidious.

By FotJ, he should be the most powerful mortal Force user, tbh.

Luke has nothing that places him above Sidious.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In the Force?

Well, I mean he said all three, but--



uh, no--



no.



No.



NO.



Okay, yeah.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In the Force?

RotJ = Satele Shan level.

DE = Starkiller.

Dunno where you rank this two.
Tell me more

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke has nothing that places him above Sidious.

Except, you know, overpowering him and then being confirmed to grow stronger after that point.

Originally posted by Azronger
Except, you know, overpowering him and then being confirmed to grow stronger after that point.

Circumstances, tbh. And he never overpowered him with the Force either.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, I mean he said all three, but--



uh, no--



no.



No.



NO.



Okay, yeah.

2 lazy to do 'sabers and all-out, and you no'd almost all of my picks. Okay, maybe I rated Exar a bit high, but I don't see too much of a problem with the rest.......



Originally posted by Ursumeles
Dunno where you rank this two.
Tell me more

I rank Satele above Obi-Wan, and Starkiller peak Vader +.

As you rank Sids > Luke, do you consider the Lusankya feat legit?

the feat where Sidious "ragdolled" a ISD? I mean it's possible, if scaling is anything to go by, all of the big 5 - maybe 6 - could logically pull the feat off. We have no idea what effort to took Sidious, however, if we was to interpret the quote like that, though.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Where do you rank the following Versions of Luke in Lightsaber Combat, the Force and All-Out?

1. RotJ
2. DE
3. Black Fleet Trilogy
4. Vector Prime
5. TUF
6. DN
7. LotF
8. FotJ

Force:
1. Above Vader.
2. Somewhere between Gethzerion and Vader.
3. No idea.
4. No idea.
5. Darth Plagueis.
6. Yoda.
7. Darth Sidious.
8. > everyone else (except Sarasu Taalon and Abeloth).

Lightsaber Combat:
1. KotOR Revan or Meetra Surik.
2. Obi-Wan.
3. No idea.
4. No idea.
5. Darth Tyranus.
6. Darth Malgus.
7. Darth Plagueis.
8. Mace/Yoda.

All-Out:
1. Darth Vader.
2. Darth Krayt.
3. No idea.
4. No idea.
5. Darth Caedus.
6. Yoda.
7. Darth Sidious.
8. > everyone 'cept Abeloth.

Luke practically conceded inferiority to Vader in the Force, tbh. No way is he above Vader as far as RotJ goes.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke practically conceded inferiority to Vader in the Force, tbh. No way is he above Vader as far as RotJ goes. You sure? 'cause Vader had years' worth of honing his skill with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke practically conceded inferiority to Vader in the Force, tbh. No way is he above Vader as far as RotJ goes.

IIRC, there was a quote taht put's them as equals (raw power wise, I guess), but nothing suggests RotJ Luke > Vader.
Also, IIRC, there was a quote for Vader > Geth, at least off-Dathomir.

Originally posted by Geistalt
You sure? 'cause Vader had years' worth of honing his skill with a lightsaber.

huh? dunno what saber dueling have to do with Force power, tbh.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
the feat where Sidious "ragdolled" a ISD? I mean it's possible, if scaling is anything to go by, all of the big 5 - maybe 6 - could logically pull the feat off.
Not an ISD, an ISSD... which is literally 100 times more massive than an ISD. That would be like ragdolling 100 star destroyers at once, and I really don't see the scaling putting anyone in that ballpark.

Leia used her Force harmony.

Which didn't just amp Luke, it unlocked his potential, as noted by the comic. No reason assuming it just disappeared for some reason.

Because afterward, she stopped doing it.

There is no basis for these kinds of things being permanent.

So your potential being unlocked isn't permanent? Wut?

If he can't unlock it by himself, how is it supposed to be permanent?

It's not as if this is the first time it's happened, either, he used the dark side to unlock his potential to beat Vader, didn't stay unlocked.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If he can't unlock it by himself, how is it supposed to be permanent?

Because there's nothing stating that potential unlocked via means other than training just disappears into thin air for no reason, lol.



Probably because he didn't continue to serve the dark side and wasn't an angry barbarian all the time.

Originally posted by Azronger
Because there's nothing stating that potential unlocked via means other than training just disappears into thin air for no reason, lol.I gave a reason there darling, Luke needed Leia to access that power, without Leia's help, he has no means of accessing it. Not indeed without the proper training and Force mastery.

Right he lost the means, how is the above different?

Ok fair enough.

Assuming luke acheived his potential at some point(and there's no reason he shouldn't have), then him overpowering sidious after having his potential unlocked would put him at his peak above sidious. Furthermore its never stated luke's full potential was unlocked when he overpowered sidious so he has a measure of growth. Also, wasn't that on a darkside nexus?

De luke is>prime vader who should be> the pre prime version of vader who dominated starkiller, based on what is de luke stakiller level

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
De luke is>prime vader.

Based on?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
vader who dominated starkiller

'Killer broke out of Vader's Force choke in every version sans the Wii - which I'm not actually inclined to accept as canon fact given it is contradicted. Not to mention, Starkiller just got done running an entire ****ing gauntlet of formidable forces, so there is enough evidence to suggest his Force reserves were vitiated to a solid degree.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
based on what is de luke stakiller level

Better showings across the board?

Starkiller never broke out of Vader's choke hold. I dunno why people think that when clearly Vader willingly tosses him aside, which should be rather obvious from his hand movement. This is also stated in the prima guide.

Even if what you say is true - who cares?

Finding a momentary lasp in someone Force defenses doesn't = domination, lmao. Especially when Vader couldn't dominate a weaker version of Starkiller just months prior, despite trying.

Unless it's about Kenobi, then it's legit.

@Deronn Did I ever say Vader could dominate Starkiller? No, I didn't. So:

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
actually reading is key.

^^
Shit, I'll take my L.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Unless it's about Kenobi, then it's legit.

Kenobi getting dominated by Maul wasn't a momentary laps, it was flat-out one person opposing their superior power on the other. In this case, Maul being the former while Kenobi, unfortunately, being the latter.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo


Based on?





'Killer broke out of Vader's Force choke in every version sans the Wii - which I'm not actually inclined to accept as canon fact given it is contradicted. Not to mention, Starkiller just got done running an entire ****ing gauntlet of formidable forces, so there is enough evidence to suggest his Force reserves were vitiated to a solid degree.
Sorry about the formatting
When did starkiller break out of vader's hold? I really hope you aren't basing this off ant's cav with elimist

Starkiller did not break out of vader's chokehold, even the primaguide explicitly states starkiller ragdolled him.

Sure, but Starkiller constantly getting his shit pushed in and Witwer confirming Vader can wreck him is just a lapse in defense.
--DC 2017

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Even if what you say is true - who cares?

Finding a momentary lasp in someone Force defenses doesn't = domination, lmao. Especially when Vader couldn't dominate a weaker version of Starkiller just months prior, despite trying.
There's no proof off a monetary lapse. And galen marek has no relevance here. Furthermore in the tfu comic, vader was able to dominate the crap out of marek right before(as in like the same day) marek went to fee the rebels.

@Rocky: Maybe want to fix that formatting and grammar before you expect me to answer whatever you just typed.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Rocky: Maybe want to fix that formatting and grammar before you expect me to answer whatever you just typed.

I edited it

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kenobi getting dominated by Maul wasn't a momentary laps, it was flat-out one person opposing their superior power on the other. In this case, Maul being the former while Kenobi, unfortunately, being the latter.
I mean it was
A. Kenobi who had the rest of season 5+season 6+dark desciple+the outer rim seiges to grow
B. Maul's only done this witch circumstantial factors at play

DC's double standards are quite amazing. On one hand we have Kenobi getting ragdolled when fighting 1vs2, and after a shipcrash, and when his defenses were visibly down. On the other hand we have Starkiller being ragdolled twice in the Wii version, once in the PC version, the prima guide backing up both sources, and Witwer acknowledging that Vader can wreck Starkiller and he was gaming him in TFU II, and underestimating him in TFU I.

And which one he thinks is a clear sign of domination? The former.

CS, do you have the Prima Guide quotes?

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
DC's double standards are quite amazing. On one hand we have Kenobi getting ragdolled when fighting 1vs2, and after a shipcrash, and when his defenses were visibly down. On the other hand we have Starkiller being ragdolled twice in the Wii version, once in the PC version, the prima guide backing up both sources, and Witwer acknowledging that Vader can wreck Starkiller and he was gaming him in TFU II, and underestimating him in TFU I.

And which one he thinks is a clear sign of domination? The former.
not to mention that going by dc's logic maul only being able to hold(not even choke) kenobi briefly in the air for a second or two would indicate that kenobi was able to quickly break out of maul's tk hold meaning without any amplification or without kenobi being hindered meaning maul is<pre prime kenobi right?

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a ragdoll.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I mean it was
A. Kenobi who had the rest of season 5+season 6+dark desciple+the outer rim seiges to grow
B. Maul's only done this witch circumstantial factors at play


1. If you can actually prove he grew enough to bridge the sizable gap that was there at the time of the ragdoll, I'll buy it. Until then, it's nothing but baseless conjecture with little to actually back it up.

2. What were those favorable circumstances? LMAO. Kenobi ran up and was flat out chocked for an extended period of time while Maul was fighting, maneuvering around, etc and Kenobi couldn't break the hold until Maul willingly released him.

That was my interpretation of the image until AZ's post made me re-watch the video and see otherwise. However, just throwing someone once that fought through a horde of enemies prior, doesn't prove superiority, lmao. It's literally like saying Yoda is > Palpatine because he momentarily broke through Palpatine defenses and sent him flying like a ragdoll.



Yes, and a 2-3 seconds throwing doesn't prove Vader can dominate him either.





Scan, pls.

IIRC, in the novel, during their final battle aboard the Deathstar, both were trading TK attacks and neither was really able to gain any sort of ground. So this so called domination in the comic is something I need to see.





Given Marek is stated to be 'Killers inferior and Vader couldn't dominate him, yeah it kinda is.

___

All in all, prove me wrong - I don't care if Vader can dominate Starkiller, as I don't like the latter as a character anyway. But the crux of this thread is ranking Luke, and you still didn't comment on two of my points: What makes DE Luke > Vader and what makes DE Luke > Starkiller?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
1.

2. What were those favorable circumstances? LMAO. Kenobi ran up and was flat out chocked for an extended period of time while Maul was fighting, maneuvering around, etc and Kenobi couldn't break the hold until Maul willingly released him.
Maul having a nightmare specifically about kenobi cutting him in half right before? The blurbs during the nightmare reading
"this is the lesson TATSU:
"the power of the force is not as important as who wields it_"
"and for what purpose"
and the very next blurb has maul waking up yelling KENOBI!!!!!!!
Maul noting that the pain from dreams makes him stronger?
Given how tcw maul loves choking kenobi(to the point he's dreaming about that in death sentence) its pretty strange that maul has only done it with a specific dream about kenobi before and when kenobi couldn't walk straight. It also makes no sense kenobi can shove aside maul+oppress simultaneously when both are fully facing him. That is untill you realize maul's domination happens with circumstantial aid. So the gap isn't as big as you'd think it would be taking it at face value.
If you can actually prove he grew enough to bridge the sizable gap that was there at the time of the ragdoll, I'll buy it. Until then, it's nothing but baseless conjecture with little to actually back it up.
Kenobi's ability to stalemate post tcw anakin when things escalated in their sparring session? Kenobi being able to defend vs and stalemate a hindered knightfall anakin(who at the start of rots was "vastly" above his ventress dominating season 5 tcw counterpart? Dooku needing to "summon power throughout the universe" to break through kenob's barrier? The fact that with nothing circumstantial at play, kenobi has simultaneously shoved both maul and oppress aside(shadow conspiracy). Kneobi going from not being able to sense dooku right behind him in season6 of tcw to being able to sense where dooku is from a much larger distance despite dooku trying to hide himself?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That was my interpretation of the image until AZ's post made me re-watch the video and see otherwise. However, just throwing someone once that fought through a horde of enemies prior, doesn't prove superiority, lmao. It's literally like saying Yoda is > Palpatine because he momentarily broke through Palpatine defenses and sent him flying like a ragdoll.



Yes, and a 2-3 seconds throwing doesn't prove Vader can dominate him either.





Scan, pls.

IIRC, in the novel, during their final battle aboard the Deathstar, both were trading TK attacks and neither was really able to gain any sort of ground. So this so called domination in the comic is something I need to see.





Given Marek is stated to be 'Killers inferior and Vader couldn't dominate him, yeah it kinda is.

___

All in all, prove me wrong - I don't care if Vader can dominate Starkiller, as I don't like the latter as a character anyway. But the crux of this thread is ranking Luke, and you still didn't comment on two of my points: What makes DE Luke > Vader and what makes DE Luke > Starkiller?

Vader chokes marek from page 98-99

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
DC's double standards are quite amazing. On one hand we have Kenobi getting ragdolled when fighting 1vs2, and after a shipcrash, and when his defenses were visibly down. On the other hand we have Starkiller being ragdolled twice in the Wii version, once in the PC version, the prima guide backing up both sources, and Witwer acknowledging that Vader can wreck Starkiller and he was gaming him in TFU II, and underestimating him in TFU I.

And which one he thinks is a clear sign of domination? The former.

honestly, your effort to display me as some kind of dishonest debater while completely ignoring exactly what my argument is, is pretty pathetic, tbh.

Then defend yourself. From my point of view you are full of shit on this one

I'm really interested how you can look at these two instances and with a straight face say Maul vs Kenobi is a clear domination while Vader vs Starkiller is not.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Then defend yourself.

I'm pretty sure we've discussed this subject multiple times in the past before, why should I bother doing it again?

If you want to perceive it as a double standard, fine, be my guest. Just don't go classlessly mentioning in completely unrelated threads.

It was hardly unrelated. You said first that Vader ragdolling Starkiller was just an opportune attack. And I challenged your arbitrary claims on what is opportune and what isn't by the most obvious example I had.

Shit slinging aside what do you base it on that Vader can't dominate Starkiller? Besides the TFU I duel, which is irrelevant. I tell you why if you insist on it.

Yeah, it pretty much is.

I don't know he we can compare Starkiller getting grabbed and tossed for 2-3 seconds, Maul actively owning Kenobi for several pages while dodging attacks and shit. Defenses down or not , he had sufficient enough time to power through it but he failed until Maul let go.

The two showings are hardly comparable.

What the f-uck are you even talking about? Only because they first shown Kenobi 4 pages after the ragdoll doesn't mean it lasted that long. That's a baseless speculation. It lasted 1 page, and as soon as Maul was attacked he dropped Kenobi. You can tell that easily from the visuals, Maul no longer has the TK visual around his hand.

As for Vader, him choking Galen was longer than 2-3 seconds in the Wii version. On top of that Witwer confirms that Vader was holding back in TFU II, as well as undersestimating Galen in TFU I. Also in TFU I Galen unbalances Vader with dun moch, so him not ragdolling Galen there and then is not a compelling case.

On top of it all Witwer also said that in TFU III Vader would've wrecked Starkiller in a fair fight at the start of the game, showing a vast gap between them in a short time after TFU II. Now you could say that TFU III never happened, but it still shows authorial intent. They always had Vader as more powerful, and only letting him lose circumstantially, going as far as they didn't even want to have Vader as the main villain in TFU I, but a secret apprentice, because they didn't think Galen should beat Vader.

What probably puts DE Luke above either Vader or Starkiller is better feats. Like moving ten miles in one or two seconds, or destroying every single one of the Emperor's clones before the latter was resurrected, while on one of the most potent DS nexuses in the mythos.

He's physically dominating yes, but his Force feats in nearly every other category is inferior. Particularly, telekinetic power.

And when did he run 10 miles in two seconds?

He's his own worst enemy so this is a moot point.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He's physically dominating yes, but his Force feats in nearly every other category is inferior. Particularly, telekinetic power.

Physical augmentation is derived from one's overall command of the Force, and Luke shits on both Vader and Starkiller with his speed and strength. Logically, he'd be at least in their league in applications of TK.

And who can lift the biggest pile of shit is hardly ever a factor, unless the opponents are in the ragdoll range or close to it.



http://static9.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5526212-run+length+of+the+eclipse.jpg

From the audio drama we discover that the Storm ate the ship in about six seconds. So when it had eaten half, three seconds would have passed. In that three seconds, Luke had run across the entire distance of the ship while battling Stormtroopers at the same time, activated the controls of an Imperial Shuttle and flown off.

Gonna reply to you all later - love you guys. <3

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
love you guys. <3 http://data.whicdn.com/images/52715505/original.gif

Bump

ANH: >/= Bane

Originally posted by Geistalt
Force:
1. Above Vader.
2. Somewhere between Gethzerion and Vader.
3. No idea.
4. No idea.
5. Darth Plagueis.
6. Yoda.
7. Darth Sidious.
8. > everyone else (except Sarasu Taalon and Abeloth).

Lightsaber Combat:
1. KotOR Revan or Meetra Surik.
2. Obi-Wan.
3. No idea.
4. No idea.
5. Darth Tyranus.
6. Darth Malgus.
7. Darth Plagueis.
8. Mace/Yoda.

All-Out:
1. Darth Vader.
2. Darth Krayt.
3. No idea.
4. No idea.
5. Darth Caedus.
6. Yoda.
7. Darth Sidious.
8. > everyone 'cept Abeloth.
Kek.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Gonna reply to you all later - love you guys. <3

When's "later"?