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When it comes to most Sith, most of us fans are fine with accepting it with one restriction that it refers to "up to their times." However Bane does not get this luxury. Why is that? Lack of feats? DOE Bane said he was stronger than any past incarnation IIRC, which would include his amped incarnations. This would mean Bane at his height can kill entire worlds and would fit with Cognus's vision of his power. This would also fit with the power-scalin g of the R02 with Palpatine culminating as the strongest Sith, what with Darth Tenebrous's master capable of popping Galactic wide nexus of Light side energies and Plagueis's and Palpatine's ability to shift the Force itself to the Dark side. Thoughts?

Bane has never been implied to be a planet killer, and I doubt the most knowledgeable Sith Lord up into his time would be useless in sorcery.

it's a junk accolade, one of which the writer himself conceded to excluding certain Sith frol the quote. It's worth about the same as that one claiming/implying Caedus v Darth Revan v Darth Sidious would be a great match up

Didn't Force and Destiny state Bane was stronger than all Sith before him>

no

Originally posted by The Merchant
DOE Bane said he was stronger than any past incarnation IIRC,?

Yeah, I doubt it. Pretty sure the entire plot of DoE was put into motion because Bane knew he was atrophying, which triggered the fear that Zannah intended to exploit a loophole in the RoT via waiting him out.

Because he is weak and laem.

Because DMB doesn't does his job.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
doesn't does

https://media.giphy.com/media/HwmB7t7krGnao/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Because DMB doesn't does his job.

Ya know for a german, you aren't very nazi like about your grammar.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oAt21Fnr4i54uK8vK/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ya know for a german, you aren't very nazi like about your grammar.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oAt21Fnr4i54uK8vK/giphy.gif
For a mexican, you don't deal enough with drugs.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oAt21Fnr4i54uK8vK/giphy.gif

Also, Grammar nazis =/= real nazis.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
For a mexican, you don't deal enough with drugs.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oAt21Fnr4i54uK8vK/giphy.gif

Also, Grammar nazis =/= real nazis.

Lol get on hangouts and get ready to be surprised!

He's nothing special. The only thing he did was make it possible for a glorious character like Papa Palpatine to be important.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
For a mexican, you don't deal enough with drugs.
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oAt21Fnr4i54uK8vK/giphy.gif

Also, Grammar nazis =/= real nazis.

It's sad to see discipline degenated in Germany.

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5207832-8214746295-Bane..PNG

Could this be to what you are referring?

Yep, but Ant debunked it pretty soundly a while back.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yep, but Ant debunked it pretty soundly a while back.
Link me?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yep, but Ant debunked it pretty soundly a while back.

Just another reason to love that little ball of death and destruction

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Link me?

I don't believe he ever posted it publicly, this went down on some long lost chatroom.

The short version is that the insider is shady as hell, though. The folks who wrote it basically confirmed they had no f*cking clue what they were doing when Ant contact them. It's actually supposed to be canon rather than legends, by the way.

They thought the Darth Bane trilogy was still Canon (but oddly knew that SWTOR was Legends).

The quote really just means Darth Bane's the greatest ancient Sith Lord in Canon, but we knew that from TCW.

Note that I don't think the Fact Files go through the same fact-checking that USA sources go either.

Ridiculous, the entire article is solely based on Legends material, yeah of course it's canon.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Just another reason to love that little ball of death and destruction

is this source the same one that stated bastilla was kenobi level and that malak was>dooku?

Nah, that's Wizards of the Coast.

Wizards of the Coast is the worst source ever.

Yeah. Dooku/Mace are factually more skilled and more powerful than post-KotOR Revan, never mind Malak off the SF. Either of them would stomp him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah. Dooku/Mace are factually more skilled and more powerful than post-KotOR Revan, never mind Malak off the SF. Either of them would stomp him.
technically speaking only mace is factually> power wise though logically dooku would be as well

Dooku is more powerful than Mace per Yoda: Dark Rendezvous.

Quote?

It's Yoda's opinion, but I trust him on the matter.



This is ambiguous but may also refer to the same thing, and it's from an omniscient perspective:

Both of those reference Dooku as a Padawan, not as a Sith Lord, hence the words "student" and "apprentice".

It refers to Dooku as a Jedi in general. Those terms are because Yoda trained him. It sounds to me like Yoda's referring to all Jedi of younger generations compared to himself. Unless you're suggesting that the loss of Dooku at 70 years of age was mostly because of his accomplishments in his teens and twenties...

Dooku became more powerful as a Sith Lord than as a Jedi. If he was more powerful than Mace as a Jedi, then he'd obviously be more powerful as a Sith.

yoda would definitely be biased towards dooku considering that its only during the fight at the end of the novel yoda lets go of his love for dooku.Besides didn't shatterpoint say mace was at the top of class as a padawan? Anyway, regardless of how gifted dooku may have been as an apprentince, mace was factually more powerful as a jedi master.

Mace was also got a boost at the end of shatterpoint which was closer to rots than dooku turning to the darkside

The other Jedi seem to be in agreement with him, as well. Also, I'm arguing for the quote referring to Dooku as a Master as well, not just as an apprentice.

IIRC, Mace's quotes of supremacy all come from before Dooku's conception, and he's had no quotes putting him above all other Jedi bar Dooku since AotC. In that case, Dooku's quote could easily be seen as a retcon.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The other Jedi seem to be in agreement with him, as well. Also, I'm arguing for the quote referring to Dooku as a Master as well, not just as an apprentice.

IIRC, Mace's quotes of supremacy all come from before Dooku's conception, and he's had no quotes putting him above all other Jedi bar Dooku since AotC. In that case, Dooku's quote could easily be seen as a retcon.
1. You mean them turning away? I always interpreted that as them just sympathising with yoda.
2. Which yet again can defintiely be subjective considering what I stated above.
3. Well shatterpoint was after aotc and reffered to dooku multiple times. Also it snot directly contradicted by anything.

It's subjective, but I'm treating it as reliable.

And Shatterpoint comes after AotC, but so what? There's no mention of Mace > Dooku there, to my memory. Mace grew stronger, but so did Dooku upon turning to the dark side, and he probably grows by a greater extent. So we're back at Dooku ~>= Mace.

Objective sources say Mace > Jedi Dooku tho. So obviously Yoda just has his mouth full of Dooku's balls

Nova just refuses to accept the fact that Mace is > Dooku.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Objective sources say Mace > Jedi Dooku tho. So obviously Yoda just has his mouth full of Dooku's balls

That's why I'm saying it's a retcon.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Nova just refuses to accept the fact that Mace is > Dooku.

**** off, dumb yank.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's why I'm saying it's a retcon.

Character opinion retconing objecive srouce? That's rich. Even more so because in the same novel Yoda says Mace is at least equal to Dooku in neutral ground. So if Mace = Sith Dooku, how could Jedi Dooku be > Mace?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's subjective, but I'm treating it as reliable.

And Shatterpoint comes after AotC, but so what? There's no mention of Mace > Dooku there, to my memory. Mace grew stronger, but so did Dooku upon turning to the dark side, and he probably grows by a greater extent. So we're back at Dooku ~>= Mace.
1. Given that it contradicts omniscient fact files, and its from someone who states multiple his love for dooku, I take the fact file over it.
2. Actually it was in Republic: Emissaries to Malastare, which is still well after aotc came out. Windu was stated as being at the top of his class.
3. Speculation. I could argue that given mace was younger than dooku, he could have grown more over tcw in addition to his growth in shatterpoint.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Character opinion retconing objecive srouce? That's rich. Even more so because in the same novel Yoda says Mace is at least equal to Dooku in neutral ground. So if Mace = Sith Dooku, how could Jedi Dooku be > Mace?

Yep, it's entirely possible. Not only is it a valid and reliable character opinion in Yoda, but it's clearly supposed to carry weight from the author (it's part of how Dooku's Jedi past is introduced to us). And as I said, there's another quote from the novel which is actually omniscient and may well be saying the same thing. Omniscience just eliminates the possibility of fallibility on the quote's part. It doesn't make the quote unable to be retconned.

Secondly, Yoda's commentary on Mace and Dooku was regarding lightsaber combat. This is regarding Force power alone. Also, nowhere does Yoda say that Mace is at least equal to Dooku. He says that Mace might have been the only one who was equal to Dooku.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Given that it contradicts omniscient fact files, and its from someone who states multiple his love for dooku, I take the fact file over it.
2. Actually it was in Republic: Emissaries to Malastare, which is still well after aotc came out. Windu was stated as being at the top of his class.
3. Speculation. I could argue that given mace was younger than dooku, he could have grown more over tcw in addition to his growth in shatterpoint.

1. Omniscience doesn't make quotes immutable. They can still be retconned. And as I said, there's another quote from Y: DR from the omniscient perspective which may also be saying the same thing.

2. Dooku isn't in Mace's class, though. He's decades older. That'd be like me taking quotes about Dooku being far above his peers and using that against Mace.

3. Speculation based on evidence, of course. Dooku acquired significant Force knowledge upon joining the Sith, retrieving holocrons which are specifically noted to have increased his powers, etc.

1. They can be retconned, but imo, the first quote isn't enough. The second quote could be referring to dooku at a specific time. Given that dooku is a couple decades older than mace as you've pointed out, dooku could have been an appretince at a different. Besides its talking about dooku as an appretince not as a jedi overall.
2. Fair point
3. No reason why mace facing his inner darkness wouldn't be a significant point of growth.

1. Well, it's referring to Dooku in the present tense. And he's still an apprentice of the Order because he was still trained by the Order, even if he's attained higher ranks afterwards. I don't see the point of the author repeatedly prescribing Dooku with accolades that would only be applicable to him more than half a century before the novel itself, lol. They're obviously supposed to refer to Dooku at his peak as a Jedi.

3. Which leaves us back at square one, lol.

1.Yoda was also still trained by the order, if you intepret it as such, that could apply to yoda as well.
2. The first quote was intended to give yoda a sad character moment where we felt bad. The second quote was a reference to the ending of the previous chapter for a smooth transition to their previous chapter where we all felt bad for yoda.
3. like an "everconducting loop"

Mace = Dooku >>>>>>>>>>> Bastila.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1.Yoda was also still trained by the order, if you intepret it as such, that could apply to yoda as well.
2. The first quote was intended to give yoda a sad character moment where we felt bad. The second quote was a reference to the ending of the previous chapter for a smooth transition to their previous chapter where we all felt bad for yoda.
3. like an "everconducting loop"

1. Yoda is the obvious exception, perhaps with Anakin.

2. They can create sympathy for Yoda without undermining their actual purpose.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Secondly, Yoda's commentary on Mace and Dooku was regarding lightsaber combat. This is regarding Force power alone. Also, nowhere does Yoda say that Mace is at least equal to Dooku. He says that Mace might have been the only one who was equal to Dooku.

Yes, but you also always argue that their skill is on par. If their skill is on par, but Sith Dooku > Jedi Dooku > Mace in the Force then they again can't be equal. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

lol Just because power influences skill doesn't mean that X has to be more skilled or Y more powerful because of this or that. I thought you argued that Obi-Wan was almost on par with Dooku in sabers but clearly behind in Force. Or he's on par with Maul in sabers but inferior in Force. etc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol Just because power influences skill doesn't mean that X has to be more skilled or Y more powerful because of this or that.

Can you rephrase this coherently?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I thought you argued that Obi-Wan was almost on par with Dooku in sabers but clearly behind in Force.

Key word "almost". That's not the same as being equal.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Or he's on par with Maul in sabers but inferior in Force. etc.

RotS Kenobi is neither on par with him in sabers nor inferior in the Force

1. Just because power has an effect on skill doesn't mean that X can't be more powerful than Y despite being evenly skilled.

2. Still a much smaller gap than the one in power.

3. TCW Obi-Wan, obviously. Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Just because power has an effect on skill doesn't mean that X can't be more powerful than Y despite being evenly skilled.

2. Still a much smaller gap than the one in power.

3. TCW Obi-Wan, obviously. Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

1. Naturally. But then they aren't equal.

2. Because in the physical department Kenobi isn't that far off from Dooku, since he doesn't have to compensate for his age.

3. There's no quote, to my knowledge, that says Maul is equal or superior to Kenobi skill wise, so this arguments is irrelevant.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yoda is the obvious exception, perhaps with Anakin.

2. They can create sympathy for Yoda without undermining their actual purpose.
1. I can just as easily say given the fact file that windu is the obvious exception. You can't have it both ways
dooku was an appretince, it also applies to yoda as well.
2. The actual purpose is creating sympathy for yoda with a moment where he regrets the fall of someone who he holds emotionally close to him. Implying that dooku>mace isn't the purpose.

Dooku and mace being stated as equals as duelists in dark rendovous doesn't remotely imply windu is as powerful. Comparatively, given dooku's willigness/variety he's the better force user regardless of whether there's a raw power gap. That being said mace can be conisdered the superior duelistt though marginally due to starships and vehicles+nick gillard. While dooku did become more skilled as a sith, mace fullly mastered vapaad afterwards. Furthermore by rots mace's inner darkness was increasing. There's also mace's superior physical stamina/strength. While dooku has dealt with strength orientated fighters, he's never succesfully dealt with someone who had on par skill in addition to superior physicals

And no. TCW kenobi is>maul as a duelist, both of their duels show him as superior despite maul being shown as more powerful(albeit with circumstances)

@Rock -

1. I'm not saying Yoda's the obvious exception on merit of his power. I'm saying Yoda's the obvious exception to "apprentice" given that he's referring to junior Jedi compared to himself and more than likely is referring to Jedi that he's personally taught.

2. No, the purpose is to establish how great Dooku was to emphasize the loss caused by his departure from the Order. That's the authorial intent. Sympathy for Yoda would be a side effect, nothing more.

3. I don't agree with that, but we're moving increasingly away from the point at hand. And that would support my point anyways.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
1. Naturally. But then they aren't equal.

2. Because in the physical department Kenobi isn't that far off from Dooku, since he doesn't have to compensate for his age.

3. There's no quote, to my knowledge, that says Maul is equal or superior to Kenobi skill wise, so this arguments is irrelevant.

Approximations work fine. They don't have to be exactly equal for my point to work, lol.

Secondly, even if you hold that Dooku and Mace are equal in sabers and thus must be equal in Force, he's still factually above Revan, so my point stands.

I wasn't referring to the first quote which is subjectiive and is coming from someone who had a clear attachment to dooku that he only let go off at the end of the novel.
2. Yea,the emotional loss, hence why you have yoda's ears sadly flapping and the council looking away.
3. It was intended for zoltan. Saying them being equals/near equals as duelists makes them equals in the force is ridculous. And yea this discussion is ridicoulously off topic. And yes dooku/mace ar eboth>revan or at least pre-sor revan

Exar Kun was more powerful than Qel-Droma, but the two still stalemated each other in a duel. Yoda and Sidious rivalled each other in Force powers(with Sidious perhaps even being more powerful) yet Yoda was at least his equal in saber combat. Sidious and Talzin are comparable in power, yet Sidious can stomp her in saber combat.

Being more powerful doesn't always equate to being more skilled, especially not when the power gap isn't that big to begin with.
Also, it's not really hard to see Dooku surpassing Windu as a swordsman, even if by a microscopic margin.

Originally posted by MythLord
Exar Kun was more powerful than Qel-Droma, but the two still stalemated each other in a duel. Yoda and Sidious rivalled each other in Force powers(with Sidious perhaps even being more powerful) yet Yoda was at least his equal in saber combat. Sidious and Talzin are comparable in power, yet Sidious can stomp her in saber combat.

Being more powerful doesn't always equate to being more skilled, especially not when the power gap isn't that big to begin with.
Also, it's not really hard to see Dooku surpassing Windu as a swordsman, even if by a microscopic margin.
1. Saberskill obviously =/power but sidious is at least as good as yoda saber wise. Kun vs quel droma is a fair exaple though
2. Per gillard mace>=dooku saberwise. There's also mace being the more skilled jedi before both had skill boosts

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Saberskill obviously =/power but sidious is at least as good as yoda saber wise. Kun vs quel droma is a fair exaple though

Eh, both the RotS Script and RotS Junior novel had Yoda driving Sidious back in pure saber combat. Then again, Sidious returned the favour. But the point is a lot of sources either place them as equals in power, with Yoda as the superior swordsman, or Yoda being inferior in the Force but still equal in saber combat.
So clearly it's not just Force power that drives a duel.

Innate talent and power is usually very important, but at times people put too much stock in it.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Per gillard mace>=dooku saberwise. There's also mace being the more skilled jedi before both had skill boosts

Gillard only says Vaapad!Mace is a 9; normal Mace is an 8, much like Dooku. And that quote is retconned by Fact File, which notes Dooku was second in the Order to Yoda as a swordsman(thus, at least Mace's equal).

Originally posted by MythLord
Eh, both the RotS Script and RotS Junior novel had Yoda driving Sidious back in pure saber combat. Then again, Sidious returned the favour. But the point is a lot of sources either place them as equals in power, with Yoda as the superior swordsman, or Yoda being inferior in the Force but still equal in saber combat.

Innate talent and power is usually very important, but at times people put too much stock in it.



Gillard only says Vaapad!Mace is a 9; normal Mace is an 8, much like Dooku. And that quote is retconned by Fact File, which notes Dooku was second in the Order to Yoda as a swordsman(thus, at least Mace's equal).
1. Well regardless yoda/rots sidious are basically equals both saber and force wise.
2. Not disagreeing wit that
3. I'm not referring to that. If I was I'd be saying mace>dooku. I'm referring to later on mace being stated to be an 8 bordering 9

Well yeah Mace is an 8 that's close to the tier 9, but you can argue that Dooku is, as well.
It's fairly obvious the two are meant to be rivals.

1. If we go by gillard, Mace isn't just close, he's bordering close, you could argue dooku is bordering as well but as mace is a bordering tier 8 you can't argue dooku being>mace because that would put him into 9 territory
2. Well yea. I've fluctuated between the two multiple times

Nah, Dooku can still be superior to Mace by an extremely small margin skill-wise and still be in 8 territory, just barely closer to 9 than Windu who's already pretty close to crossing the border.

But like I said, Dooku being superior to Windu skill-wise is only a possibility, it's not a sure thing. Given multiple sources say as much, their respective mastery of the lightsaber is similar, and their feats are similar, the two are pretty much dead even in lightsaber combat, IMHO.

Dooku's just a somewhat better Force user.

1. If mace is bordering he's on the border, you can't come closer to 9 than the border betweem it. If dooku is also bordering with mace there's no more room to be higher because if you're on the border, getting closer would put you on 9. Off course there's the mattter of the fact file which you can take to argue dooku is more skilled.

2. True

3. Yea

Actually, the fact file applies to them as jedi. Given that both had boosts later on, and that its stated windu was able to eclipse him eventually as a jedi, it doesn't invalidate gillard's ranking.

While dooku's edge via willingness + lightning is bigger than the marginal skill edge mace may have the skill edge would likely be more relevant.. Mace's use of juyo would make dooku had pressed to make use of the force. There's also mace potentially being able to deal with lightning without a saber as he attempted to deflect the emperor's lightning. Furthermore in a tk bout, mace's durability would serve him well. It could go either way

I think you might be taking "bordering" too literally. When "to border" on something is used in such a matter, it's usually defined as "to be very near to a particular quality, feeling, state" "To come close to being something, especially in association, meaning, or intent"(took those out of dictionaries).

So what Gillard is saying isn't that Mace is literally a step away from 9, just that he's pretty close to it while still being an 8. Dooku can still be "an 8, verging on 9" and be superior to Windu, the gap just needs to be incredibly small and between those two a gap in swordsmanship is small:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
While dooku's edge via willingness + lightning is bigger than the marginal skill edge mace may have the skill edge would likely be more relevant.. Mace's use of juyo would make dooku had pressed to make use of the force. There's also mace potentially being able to deal with lightning without a saber as he attempted to deflect the emperor's lightning. Furthermore in a tk bout, mace's durability would serve him well. It could go either way

Eh, Dooku has used the Force while pressed before and always finds a way to make openings for that, its kinda how he operates. Mace's Barrier can deflect Dooku's lightning. I'd wager that superior versatility, willingness and magnitude with regards to Force powers would still win out against Windu and his slight physical advantage, though.

Originally posted by MythLord
I think you might be taking "bordering" too literally. When "to border" on something is used in such a matter, it's usually defined as "to be very near to a particular quality, feeling, state" "To come close to being something, especially in association, meaning, or intent"(took those out of dictionaries).

So what Gillard is saying isn't that Mace is literally a step away from 9, just that he's pretty close to it while still being an 8. Dooku can still be "an 8, verging on 9" and be superior to Windu, the gap just needs to be incredibly small and between those two a gap in swordsmanship is small:



Eh, Dooku has used the Force while pressed before and always finds a way to make openings for that, its kinda how he operates. Mace's Barrier can deflect Dooku's lightning. I'd wager that superior versatility, willingness and magnitude with regards to Force powers would still win out against Windu and his slight physical advantage, though.
1. fair but technically speaking going by gillard's ranking, dooku could be anywhere in tier 8,mace has to be right at the edge of 8. Granted dooku logically speaking should be a high 8 but as whole gilllard's statements imply mace is more likely to take the sabers edge. Dooku has to fit in that step to be>mace, mace on the other hand has more room.
2. Never vs someone who's at least on par with him as a duelist. Also magnitude wise i have them as equals. Mace holding hundreds of tons worth of rock in a landslide on a darkside nexus prior to a boost at the end of the novel seems on par with anything dooku has accomplished. Its dooku's willigness to abuse/unothrodoxy/use of lightning that gives him the force edge but I question how well he can bring this to bear in that battle

1. Eh, Gillard only said Maul and Dooku were 8s when asked in what tier they fall into. We can't be sure where in 8 they are, but Dooku, given all his feats and accolades, should certainly be on the higher spectrum.

2. Actually, he fought beings more powerful(who had aid) than him and effectively used both Force augmentation and Force powers to take them out. Mace didn't hold all of the hundreds of tons. He first rode the wave/avalanche out until it greatly diminished and held the last remnants of it:

"The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin."

-- Shatterpoint

Dooku's feats of domination against characters like Obi-Wan, Ventress and Quinlan should also exceed this feat considerably. And his cruiser feat is still superior to this one. Tyranus also has other nice feats up his belt like:
- lifting over a dozen obelisks when an enraged Savage Opress, who can push around ships around this timeframe, was barely capable of lifting two
- easily performing Force feats Sorzus Syn, one of Sidious' most powerful predecessors and rival of Karness Muur, deemed complex
- forming vacuums/cages of energy(Dark Energy Traps) that withstand lightsaber strikes and require the full dedication of Jedi Masters to break out of
- mind-fugging Kenobi by showing him visions of Ancient Sith Lords(this could be attributed to just the Sith Spirits taunting him, I'll admit) and then visions Qui-Gon Jinn taunting him(this is definitely Dooku's doing, though)
- being too strong in the Force for Savage and Asajj to defeat him
- leaving pools of darkness behind when he used the Force
- collapsing cave ceilings easily
- pulling a Jedi Master onto his lightsaber easily

To be fair, most of these aren't above what Windu can accomplish, but they're pretty neat feats.

Originally posted by MythLord
1. Eh, Gillard only said Maul and Dooku were 8s when asked in what tier they fall into. We can't be sure where in 8 they are, but Dooku, given all his feats and accolades, should certainly be on the higher spectrum.

2. Actually, he fought beings more powerful(who had aid) than him and effectively used both Force augmentation and Force powers to take them out. Mace didn't hold all of the hundreds of tons. He first rode the wave/avalanche out until it greatly diminished and held the last remnants of it:

"The landslide built into a wave of its own that filled in the gully as it rolled down toward the steamcrawler and the screaming, sobbing children-and on the very crest of that wave of dirt and rock, backpedaling furiously to keep from being sucked under by the landslide's roll, came Mace Windu.

Mace rode that crest while the wave sank and flattened and finally lurched to a halt, its last remnants trickling into a ridge that joined Mace's position with the corner of the steamcrawler's cabin."

-- Shatterpoint

Dooku's feats of domination against characters like Obi-Wan, Ventress and Quinlan should also exceed this feat considerably. And his cruiser feat is still superior to this one. Tyranus also has other nice feats up his belt like:
- lifting over a dozen obelisks when an enraged Savage Opress, who can push around ships around this timeframe, was barely capable of lifting two
- easily performing Force feats Sorzus Syn, one of Sidious' most powerful predecessors and rival of Karness Muur, deemed complex
- forming vacuums/cages of energy(Dark Energy Traps) that withstand lightsaber strikes and require the full dedication of Jedi Masters to break out of
- mind-fugging Kenobi by showing him visions of Ancient Sith Lords(this could be attributed to just the Sith Spirits taunting him, I'll admit) and then visions Qui-Gon Jinn taunting him(this is definitely Dooku's doing, though)
- being too strong in the Force for Savage and Asajj to defeat him
- leaving pools of darkness behind when he used the Force
- collapsing cave ceilings easily
- pulling a Jedi Master onto his lightsaber easily

To be fair, most of these aren't above what Windu can accomplish, but they're pretty neat feats.
1. We can be sure that mace is at the very high top, even if we don't take bordering literally. While dooku logically should be on the higher end it would have to be at the absolute best for dooku to be>wind and very close to the best cas escenario for him to be an exact equal going by gillard's sytem. And this is assuming we don't take gillard's word literally.

2. Right before the quoted section the landslide grew larger(and this is after it was hundreds of tons)

3. Regarding obi wan, while he certainly can ragdoll him, thats at least partially due to speed, an edge there's no reason to think mace would have over dooku. Also its worth noting that dooku felt the needed to "summon power form across the universe" before being able to blast through kenobi's defenses earlier on. I think Mace can replicate those.
On oppress, using season 3 oppress is troublesome especially considering what oppress did to dooku+ventress...
While they're all nice showings, I don't think they put him above mace

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. We can be sure that mace is at the very high top, even if we don't take bordering literally. While dooku logically should be on the higher end it would have to be at the absolute best for dooku to be>wind and very close to the best cas escenario for him to be an exact equal going by gillard's sytem. And this is assuming we don't take gillard's word literally.

And given the vast plethora of sources stating Dooku and Mace are equals, and their respective hype/feats/accolades being pound-for-pound the same, yeah the "close to best case scenario" is the most likely one in this situation.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
2. Right before the quoted section the landslide grew larger(and this is after it was hundreds of tons)

Doesn't change the fact that Mace only held back it's very last remnants.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
3. Regarding obi wan, while he certainly can ragdoll him, thats at least partially due to speed, an edge there's no reason to think mace would have over dooku. Also its worth noting that dooku felt the needed to "summon power form across the universe" before being able to blast through kenobi's defenses earlier on. I think Mace can replicate those.

Eh, it's implied that Kenobi might've countered but to what degree of success is unknown. And Dooku "summoning power from across the universe" is Stover's hyperbolic way of saying: he drew on the Force, something any Force user does when they use telekinesis. And it only took "a negligent whipcrack of power" to take Obi-Wan out.
Mace can replicate hurling Kenobi, but I don't think he'll replicate making Quinlan Vos a puppet and one-shotting Asajj by lifting a finger.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
On oppress, using season 3 oppress is troublesome especially considering what oppress did to dooku+ventress...

An enraged Opress who caught them off-guard, yeah. :/

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
While they're all nice showings, I don't think they put him above mace

Honestly, the Sorzus Syn comparison and Dark Energy Traps(also incapacitating Anakin who can break free of those Dark Energy traps) are better than what Mace has Force-wise.

It's not hard to see Dooku bordering on 9 when he's managed to hold his own against Yoda, a level 9. Gillard has gone on record saying that the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is enormous, so Dooku is obviously on the higher side of level 8 and probably on the border.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's not hard to see Dooku bordering on 9 when he's managed to hold his own against Yoda, a level 9. Gillard has gone on record saying that the difference between a level 8 and a level 9 is enormous, so Dooku is obviously on the higher side of level 8 and probably on the border.

Assuming Yoda was going all out. On Vjun where Dooku was amped and Yoda was weakened he still lost. On top of it all Anakin, another 9, shit all over Dooku like nothing.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Assuming Yoda was going all out. On Vjun where Dooku was amped and Yoda was weakened he still lost. On top of it all Anakin, another 9, shit all over Dooku like nothing.

What suggests Yoda wasn't going all out? He was trying to stop Dooku all the same. It's arguable if Yoda was weakened on Vjun since Whie was empowered, and Yoda isn't noted to feel anything other than a state of near-bloodlust that almost compels him to destroy Dooku. If you're using Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, then Yoda claims that Dooku and Mace are equals in that novel, so Dooku'd still be a level 8 bordering on a level 9.

Secondly, Anakin didn't "shit all over Dooku", at least not in the films (which is what Gillard's ranking is largely limited to). Then again, if we're relying on alternate media, then Dooku's shown a pretty clear superiority over Obi-Wan, another level 8.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Secondly, Anakin didn't "shit all over Dooku"
lmfao what

Have you seen the film?

Nova's Dooku dick sucking is more than I can handle, so f-uck you

I'll take that as an accolade from our resident Obi-Wan **********.

That's relevant to this in what way?

Relevant in allowing me to dismiss allegations of cock-sucking from you.

No, it's you trying to save face. Pathetically at that. Everything you brought up in your last post, is down right Legend tier cancer.

lol at people thinking Anakin can casually KO Dooku any day of the week. He was clearly straining and going all out in the movie.

Save face from what? I'm hardly embarrassed by you running away.

Not quite as pathetic as peddling shit like "Obi-Wan stomping Ventress", lmao. With that sort of logic, Dooku has stomped Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Have you seen the film?
Yeah. He's dominating Dooku, rofl. You almost have to cringe while watching the fight out of pity for Dooku.

Being dominant just means you're the one in the advantageous position. It's obvious that Anakin's the dominant one. That said, Dooku's still managing to deflect flurries of strikes and doesn't really get "shat on" until after the second bladelock where Anakin pushes him towards the Chancellor.

Compared to every other fight in the film Canon, the only more sided fights than Anakin vs Dooku was the original Dooku vs Anakin / Obi-Wan and Palpatine vs the B-Team.

WTF?

Dooku was winning right up until the end. He dominates the duo.

Dooku was even beating Anakin when it came to strength. He pushes him (and Obi-Wan, at the same time) back with 1 hand so hard Anakin starts pinwheeling his arms to keep his balance and was winning the bladelock.

Ant is just goo goo for Ani-cock.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku was even beating Anakin when it came to strength..
TMW you've taken so many L's over the years that you have actually transformed into an L.

Also Vader vs ESB Luke in the Carbonite Chamber.

Doesn't matter. Anakin was enraged ever since the first bladelock, and it still took him a decent amount of time before he actually defeated Dooku. It's enough to say that he wasn't outright "shat on".

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also Vader vs ESB Luke in the Carbonite Chamber.
No. Even that was closer than Anakin vs Dooku.

Dooku was outright "shat on" in comparison to Dooku vs Yoda - no question.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
TMW you've taken so many L's over the years that you have actually transformed into an L.

You can clearly see Dooku push Anakin's blade towards his face and Anakin groan from exertion.

There's also Dooku blocking him with 1 hand after forcing Obi-Wans saber up to block him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Save face from what? I'm hardly embarrassed by you running away.

Save face from having Dooku's balls down your throat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Not quite as pathetic as peddling shit like "Obi-Wan stomping Ventress", lmao.

That coming from somone who thinks closing doors impressive is hardly even an insult.

Originally posted by SunRazer
With that sort of logic, Dooku has stomped Obi-Wan.

With what kind of logic? I'm listening.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Even that was closer than Anakin vs Dooku.

Dooku was outright "shat on" in comparison to Dooku vs Yoda - no question.

1. Not the first part of the duel in the Carbonite Chamber, lol.

2. Obviously. "In comparison to Dooku vs Yoda", Maul was shitting on Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Save face from having Dooku's balls down your throat.

Sounds like an accusation you throw around whenever you don't get your way. Pathetic.



Impressive for the average Force user, and only because she did it with absolutely no effort and the doors were immune to lightsabers.

You don't see me bringing it up against Dooku or somebody like that, lmfao.



The logic that Obi-Wan "defeated" Ventress in a couple of strikes once he got serious, hence he stomped her. He only deprived her of one blade, by the way.

I mean, once we go with that we can also go with Anakin stomping Ventress on Yavin IV, Dooku stomping Obi-Wan in the RotS comic and TCW S6, etc.

Seriously guys, when exactly is Anakin beating Dooku prior to the saberlock's end? Is it when he literally blocks him behind his back without looking? When he manhandles Kenobi and straightarm blocks him with 1 hand? When he easily ducks under his wild swing? When he pushes him and Obi-Wan off balance with 1 hand, then kicks him into a corner while levitating Kenobi? When he's winning the saberlock?

Oh wait, thats Dooku doing all that.

What part of the fight is Anakin "dominating"? Please give specifics.

Dooku being shat on?:

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/52.gif

They're talking about after Anakin gets enraged. That's when he becomes a level 9.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sounds like an accusation you throw around whenever you don't get your way. Pathetic.

No, it's something I throw around when someone makes a retarded arguments and I'm to lazy to respond to it in detail. Which you did, and I was.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The logic that Obi-Wan "defeated" Ventress in a couple of strikes once he got serious, hence he stomped her. He only deprived her of one blade, by the way.

So depriving somone of thier lightsaber in 2 moves after going serious, and then she running away instantly in defeat is not a stomp?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I mean, once we go with that we can also go with Anakin stomping Ventress on Yavin IV, Dooku stomping Obi-Wan in the RotS comic and TCW S6, etc.

You are saying the same shit as Beni. Are you seriously can't see the difference between fighting someone for long and then disarming her vs disarming someone straight off the bat?

Also beside the comic being an outlier Dooku still had the droids and highground going his way, so not the same as Kenobi vs Ventress which was neutral ground

She ran away in defeat, but she could've continued to fight and the results may not have been a stomp. So it's unrealistic for you to make a premature declaration of stompage. The evidence only shows that she was losing.

And no, I already read your discussion with Beni. For Anakin vs Ventress, I'm not referring to the end, but this part: https://youtu.be/gVCXVnHFb9I?t=68

The droids were destroyed by the time Obi-Wan attacked. As for the high ground, Obi-Wan learned his lesson.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She ran away in defeat, but she could've continued to fight and the results may not have been a stomp. So it's unrealistic for you to make a premature declaration of stompage. The evidence only shows that she was losing.

She ran away for a reason. Disarming someone 2 moves after start is a stomp, however you try to spin it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And no, I already read your discussion with Beni. For Anakin vs Ventress, I'm not referring to the end, but this part: https://youtu.be/gVCXVnHFb9I?t=68

Yeaaaaah...

1. Prolonged fight before disarming.
2. Ventress didn't run away but continued fighting.

Maybe it's not the same as against Kenobi...maybe.

Time after time you and Beni come up with examples that are nowhere f-ucking the same as Kenobi vs Ventress in the TCW movie. Go back to school, I reallly can't say anything else. You are beyond hopless.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The droids were destroyed by the time Obi-Wan attacked. As for the high ground, Obi-Wan learned his lesson.

The droids allowed Dooku to gain the favourable postion before Kenobi. When they were on even ground his kick had nowhere the same effect:

https://youtu.be/OcXaicGvcvA?t=1m3s

1. She ran away because she knew she was going to lose. That doesn't mean it's a stomp. Depriving a dual-wielding duelist of one blade isn't even a conclusive victory. If she hadn't run, you wouldn't be calling it a stomp, lmfao.

More importantly, the idea of a "stomp" doesn't tie in with how well Ventress performs against Obi-Wan on other occasions.

2. Ventress did run against Anakin you ****ing dolt. They did fight for a bit earlier on, but that was mostly Force attacks. There's obviously a difference, but not that much of one. That particular exchange lasted a wonderfully long four seconds...

3. Dooku would've killed him then as well if it weren't for Anakin. In fact, Obi-Wan might've fallen off if it wasn't for Anakin.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. She ran away because she knew she was going to lose. That doesn't mean it's a stomp. Depriving a dual-wielding duelist of one blade isn't even a conclusive victory. If she hadn't run, you wouldn't be calling it a stomp, lmfao.

All I see is baseless fantasies here.

Ventress is best when using Jar'Kai, fact. Kenobi disarmed her in 5 seconds, fact. Ventress therfore would've perfomed even worse afterwards.

We are still back to the fact that as much as you and Beni would like to drown yourself in Ventress' c-unt, she was still stomped.

Originally posted by SunRazer
More importantly, the idea of a "stomp" doesn't tie in with how well Ventress performs against Obi-Wan on other occasions.

Like when Kenobi stalemated her even tho he was dying? Yeah, I see your point.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. Ventress did run against Anakin you ****ing dolt.

She still kept fighting, you imbecile.

Originally posted by SunRazer
They did fight for a bit earlier on, but that was mostly Force attacks. There's obviously a difference, but not that much of one. That particular exchange lasted a wonderfully long four seconds...

And? Still longer than against Kenobi. And Ventress was still confident to fight on unlike against Kenobi.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Dooku would've killed him then as well if it weren't for Anakin. In fact, Obi-Wan might've fallen off if it wasn't for Anakin.

That's not the point idiot. Dooku could've killed Kenobi, or Kenobi would've fallen to his death because it was over a f-ucking ledge, not because Dooku KO'd him with a kick.

Can't edit my post, but I'm asking for the "fact" that establishes that Ventress is better as a dual-wielder. I'd say it's likely, but I'm not aware of it being stated anywhere.

And for the last part, I meant it doesn't mean that Dooku wasn't stomping him anyway. Not "about to stomp".

Also, have you considered that she might've been surprised by Obi-Wan suddenly fighting so much better?

They never fight again in TCW 1on1, only with Anakin. And together in TCW they are major jobbers, I'm sure you read DMB's blog about that.



She still had a lightsaber against Kenobi. I'm aware that she could've fought on, but you and Beni just presume that she would've given any fight to Kenobi with 1 saber. Considering he could hold her off easily while holding back, disarming her when she used her best from I don't see how she could've performed well enough with her weaker form to not call it a stomp.



And Kenobi was confident facing Dooku. So by your logic applied here you have to concede our ragdolling debate



Pretty f-ucking irrelevant point. How does that have anything to do with Ventress vs Kenobi?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm asking for the "fact" that establishes that Ventress is better as a dual-wielder. I'd say it's likely, but I'm not aware of it being stated anywhere.

She uses Jar'kai all the time. If she were better with one saber she wouldn't use two. Occam's razor, man.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, have you considered that she might've been surprised by Obi-Wan suddenly fighting so much better?

She was constantly aware that Kenobi was holding back, so no.

There's no ragdolling debate. Dooku can ragdoll kenobi, be it by virtue of speed, power, or a combination of both.

Also plo koon beat a better ventress while injured.

There's also him almost instantly getting the upper hand vs oppress before their fight was interrupted

Originally posted by SunRazer
For Anakin vs Ventress, I'm not referring to the end, but this part: https://youtu.be/gVCXVnHFb9I?t=68Lol, another excellent example. No suprise Zoltard continues the bang the same drum about the length of the fight while disingenuously asserting that Kenobi and Ventress had only just started duelling, which couldn't be further from the case.

Dear Zoltard, when are you going to acknowledge that in actual fact Ventress had being going at him full throttle for several minutes, by the end of which should have logically been at less than 100%, and was observably off-balanced and frustrated? We are all still awaiting evidence that Kenobi could replicate this performance when actually right off the bat. Despite him failing to do so anywhere else, ever.

You seem to have already shot yourself in the foot regarding Ventress' flight given yes, it makes perfect sense she would have been less confident taking on Kenobi after being relieved her ability to practice Jar'Kai and/or wield a saberstaff. But the point was moot to begin with given she was evidently just cutting her losses since her mission had failed, and by her own omission was eager to alert her master.

And as far as DMB's blogpost on teamwork is concerned, though I certainly agree with him on a lot of points, there alternating fighting style is still effective in the respect that it keeps their opponent on backfoot and indeed off-balanced by minimising breathing space between attacks. The exact kind of environment in which an opening could be exploited in which to disarm one's opponent.

Moreover most of the Christophsis fight occurs off-panel, yet for a significant portion of it Kenobi and Anakin are depicting as assaulting Ventress simultaneously. So the idea that their teamwork was simply so terrible that Kenobi could not perform the mere two moves needed to disarm Asajj is verging on ludicrous.

And that's without getting into the fact that Ventress was able to hold her own and in some cases hold an advantage over Anakin on Kamino, despite Skywalker being in the same bracket as Kenobi in terms of combat ability...

The implication that Ventress would get stomped by a level 7 combatant is frankly hilarious. She's beaten Kit Fisto, beaten Grievous, challenged Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions, stalemated Savage Opress, etc.

Even factoring in the circumstances, there's no way she'd do that well in any of those instances if she would get two-shotted by a level 7.

That was a pre prime ventress though.

And she beat grevious when amped. On even ground grevious is superior per dooku and looking at their performances vs kenobi.

And kenobi completely outclassed oppress anyway, despite also having to deal with opress's superior in maul

Originally posted by SunRazer
The implication that Ventress would get stomped by a level 7 combatant is frankly hilarious. She's beaten Kit Fisto, beaten Grievous, challenged Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions, stalemated Savage Opress, etc.

Even factoring in the circumstances, there's no way she'd do that well in any of those instances if she would get two-shotted by a level 7. And Fisto was the expressly superior swordsman to Kenobi at the time.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Fisto was the expressly superior swordsman to Kenobi at the time.
Yup, and plo koon beat a superior version of the ventress fisto lost to. Granted he had a style edge but he was also injured
(And no, pushing someone in a blade lock doesn't mean you stalemated them)

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol, another excellent example. No suprise Zoltard continues the bang the same drum about the length of the fight while disingenuously asserting that Kenobi and Ventress had only just started duelling, which couldn't be further from the case.

Stop lying. I never said they just started fighting, I said Kenobi just started going all out.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dear Zoltard, when are you going to acknowledge that in actual fact Ventress had being going at him full throttle for several minutes, by the end of which should have logically been at less than 100%, and was observably off-balanced and frustrated? We are all still awaiting evidence that Kenobi could replicate this performance when actually right off the bat. Despite him failing to do so anywhere else, ever.

So let me get this straigh. You are trying to convince me that Ventress is in Kenobi's tier by saying when Kenobi held back and used a passive form, as well as Ventress using a very energy efficient form Kenobi could still tire her out enough in a span of a few minutes to have her in stomp range? Phenomenal job

Besdies it's wrong. She actually fought harder than before:

She was utterly crushed at that moment, but she'd been crushed before many, many times, and the only way she knew to deal with that was to get up and start fighting again, and harder. "I don't give up easily. And I always have a plan."

Also a dying Kenobi stalemating Ventress is replicate enough for me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You seem to have already shot yourself in the foot regarding Ventress' flight given yes, it makes perfect sense she would have been less confident taking on Kenobi after being relieved her ability to practice Jar'Kai and/or wield a saberstaff. But the point was moot to begin with given she was evidently just cutting her losses since her mission had failed, and by her own omission was eager to alert her master.

Actually I've been wrong about this. Ventress could and did recover her lightsaber yet still didn't dare to take on Kenobi, even tho a few seconds ago she was ready to kill him.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The implication that Ventress would get stomped by a level 7 combatant is frankly hilarious. She's beaten Kit Fisto, beaten Grievous, challenged Obi-Wan and Anakin on numerous occasions, stalemated Savage Opress, etc.

Even factoring in the circumstances, there's no way she'd do that well in any of those instances if she would get two-shotted by a level 7.

Don't really care whether you believe it or not when it happened. And oh yeah, against Grievous she was amped, against Fisto she had a hilariously big stylsitc edge as well as studying him, she didn't stalemate Savage, she was losing. And Savage not long before then was stomped by Maul someone who Kenobi was equal to. Anakin and Kenobi together are major jobbers in TCW, Anakin alone tho gives hell of a fights to Dooku who can in turn stomp Ventress again.

So yeah, you've got nothing.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Stop lying. I never said they just started fighting, I said Kenobi just started going all out.Originally posted by cs_zoltan
If you can't see the difference between disarming someone after a prolonged fight and disarming someone straight away with 2 moves from start to finish then idk what to say to you.Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Disarming someone 2 moves after start is a stomp, however you try to spin it.Not lying about anything darling. The spin your attempting to put on this fight is clear, and not once have you acknowledged Ventress had been fighting Kenobi for a prolonged period.

Oh dear, what a shoddy attempt at strawman. I didn't say anything about Ventress being in Kenobi's tier. Debate that in your own time, this is about whether or not Kenobi stomped Ventress, to which whether they exist in the same tier is not relevant.

And as far as energy efficiency is concerned, that has to be drawn into question considering how much more aggressive Ventress' "ferocious fighting style" is compared to standard Makashi practitioners, and the fact that she was pushing an angry offensive the entire time. And I'm afraid Ventress giving herself a private pep talk talk doesn't prove anything at all in that regard, kek.

In fact according to the novelisation, by the time Kenobi had disarmed her it appeared she cracked several ribs. Who knew?

You also argue that Kenobi was employing a passive form but that only lends itself to my point. This indeed is standard Soresu practice, allow your opponent to wear themselves down (as well as become increasingly frustrated against your offense), before exploiting an opening when they get sloppy.

The fact that Ventress has been disarmed by the likes of Koon and Anakin in the past, and only after relatively short bouts, yet remained able to continue fighting effectively afterwards only indicating that she leaves herself sloppily susceptible to disarmament in general (or that her manner of fighting isn't energy efficient at all), which would only be accentuated by the factors we are discussing.

Well that's awfully vague, are you referring to their fight on Zule? Because if so that didn't happen.

On the other hand, no, Ventress' duels on Christophsis and indeed Kamino absolutely refute the idea that Kenobi could repeat this performance.

In the novel so it would seem, but then in the novel a Vulture droid just happens to pass by and she chooses to jump on it. So it would appear she was just being opportunistic, if that hadn't been the case, would she have continued fighting? And in the end did she flee because she felt she stood no chance, or was altering Dooku simply more urgent? Who knows. Try not to jump to baseless conclusions.

Man this thread didn't even pass the page 2 mark and it went so far off the rails.

A later version of Kenobi outclassing a massively pre prime ventress doesn't put aortic kenobi over plo koon. Especially considering said version of kenobi is<fisto who koon significantly outperformed while injured vs a superior version of ventress.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Man this thread didn't even pass the page 2 mark and it went so far off the rails.
Its kmc, what did you expect

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Its kmc, what did you expect

Point taken.

@beniboybling
Ventress pushing koon in a single bladelock which koon broke free off before their fight ended hardly qualifies as fighting effectively afterwards

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Don't really care whether you believe it or not when it happened. And oh yeah, against Grievous she was amped, against Fisto she had a hilariously big stylsitc edge as well as studying him, she didn't stalemate Savage, she was losing. And Savage not long before then was stomped by Maul someone who Kenobi was equal to. Anakin and Kenobi together are major jobbers in TCW, Anakin alone tho gives hell of a fights to Dooku who can in turn stomp Ventress again.

So yeah, you've got nothing.

So a dark side nexus or form advantage can make you go from being two-shotted to beating them? Hilarious. I don't think you grasp the level of superiority you have over someone else if you can consistently two-shot them (I'm assuming you think Obi-Wan can do it consistently). A form advantage or a nexus isn't even close to being enough for such a radical change in performance. Never mind the fact that Kit was easily above Obi-Wan as of The Cestus Deception.

And no, Filoni said that Ventress was stalemating Savage. They each had the upper hand at different times in terms of what we saw, but the rest of the fight is off-panel. I'd take Filoni's word in this case.

this is the first I've heard of fisto vs ventress being on a nexus

I think he means Asajj vs GG being on Dathomir. ^

Grevious is per dooku and comparing there performances vs kenobi> ventress on even ground