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Thoughts?

yoda b/c of size advantage

An argument can be made either way.
Yoda based on disarming sidious/driving him back(with a potential enviromental edge)
Sidious based on being able to catch yoda off guard with his lightning

Yoda has intercepted Sidious trying to leave the room.

"If so powerful you are, why leave?"

Also, I believe Sidious was on the defensive the entire time. Plus he was disarmed.

I view Sidious landing a hit on Yoda as Yoda being caught off guard. Also, in the junior novelization Yoda tries to let Sidious's guard down.

A counter can also be said about Yoda landing a Force push on Sidious. Knowing Sidious he could've been prepared.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Yoda has intercepted Sidious trying to leave the room.

"If so powerful you are, why leave?"

Also, I believe Sidious was on the defensive the entire time. Plus he was disarmed.

I view Sidious landing a hit on Yoda as Yoda being caught off guard. Also, in the junior novelization Yoda tries to let Sidious's guard down.

A counter can also be said about Yoda landing a Force push on Sidious. Knowing Sidious he could've been prepared.
You could argue sidious being disarmed was due to the ifght being on the podium givne lucas and gillard's repeated suggestions that sidious is> yoda as a duelist. Then again the senior novel(which has the most favorable potrayal of the fight for sidious has yoda landing kicks on sidious)

Yoda force blasting sidious had nothing to do with speed,

I'd say Palpatine.

Yeah, Sidious slightly.

Originally posted by Trocity
Yeah, Sidious slightly.

Yoda. He moved twice as fast as Sidious in their duel and disarmed him in three blows, according to the junior novel, although some have questioned its validity.

That's RotS Sidious, of course. DE is another matter entirely.

Considering the movie is ridiculously more valid than the junior novel, that's just retarded.

The junior novel doesn't contradict the movie since that part was cut.

Originally posted by Azronger
The junior novel doesn't contradict the movie since that part was cut.
And there's the script though it could be argued it was cut due to lucas/gillards belief that sidiuous was the top duelist, something both said multiple times

Yoda didn't beat Sidious in three moves. -_-
Those were simply the last three moves he performed before Sheev got disarmed.

Anyways, RotS Sidious and Yoda are equals in speed. Later incarnation of Sidious are logically faster.

Sounds like alternative facts yeah.

Sheev

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Considering the movie is ridiculously more valid than the junior novel, that's just retarded.

And when did Sidious move faster than Yoda in the movie?

Originally posted by MythLord
Yoda didn't beat Sidious in three moves. -_-
Those were simply the last three moves he performed before Sheev got disarmed.

Well, obviously he didn't since he was holding back. But at max speed, he did, so it's a valid thing to say.

In the movie, it appears as if Yoda moves faster than Sheev tbh.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And when did Sidious move faster than Yoda in the movie?
I was saying going "IN TEH JUNIOR NOVEL YODA BEAT HIM IN THREE STRIKES" doesn't hold as evidence when Sidious has displayed in the movie that he can keep up for much more than three strikes.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, obviously he didn't since he was holding back. But at max speed, he did, so it's a valid thing to say.

Why would he hold back against the person who is responsible for the death of thousands of people Yoda knew since they were babies?

That makes absolutely no sense.

The junior novel, lal.

I don't take Star Wars books written for 10 year olds all that serious.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, obviously he didn't since he was holding back.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The junior novel, lal.

I don't take Star Wars books written for 10 year olds all that serious.

You take SWTOR seriously

Originally posted by MythLord
Why would he hold back against the person who is responsible for the death of thousands of people Yoda knew since they were babies?

That makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know, nor do I need to.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The junior novel, lal.

I don't take Star Wars books written for 10 year olds all that serious.

So you ignore canon, in other words.

@Zoltan:

your jokes about as shit as Kurk's.

the events of RotS has an entire movie and a far more legitimate adult novel to pull from that Lucas himself was involved with. why are we taking a book written strictly for kids that haven't hit puberty, over the movie and novel - both of which the God of the universe had involvement in?

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
@Zoltan:

your jokes about as shit as Kurk's.

the events of RotS has an entire movie and a far more legitimate adult novel to pull from that Lucas himself was involved with. why are we taking a book written strictly for kids that haven't hit puberty, over the movie and novel - both of which the God of the universe had involvement in?

Nobody is putting the junior novel above the movie or the adult novelization. However, Yoda disarming Sidious is still valid when there's nothing in the aforementioned sources contradicting it and has the official script by Lucas to support it.

It's a complementary source, you don't have to take it over anything. I was making a joke, don't take it as hard as your uncle's stick.

Originally posted by Azronger
However, Yoda disarming Sidious is still valid when there's nothing in the aforementioned sources contradicting it and has the official script by Lucas to support it.

Except the fact he wasn't disarmed in the actual movie or the official novel? Neither would miss such an important detail in a match that decided the fate of an entire galaxy.

That's what you're doing here - specifically AZ with the holding back bit, when RotS novel made it clear Yoda just couldn't beat Sidious, sabers or other wise.



Yes, and I'm telling you it was a shit one.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That's what you're doing here - specifically AZ with the holding back bit, when RotS novel made it clear Yoda just couldn't beat Sidious, sabers or other wise.

Idk where you got this crap from, I didn't say anything of the sort.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yes, and I'm telling you it was a shit one.

Nah, it was totally valid

fair enough.


TFU fans shouldn't have opinions on quality.

TFU is a masterpiece compared to anything after vanilla swtor. Sad that this is the only thing you can come up with every time.

Coming from the same person who brings TOR into nearly everything involving me, when I don't even like the game, or most of it's characters?

****ing hilarious. And hypocritical.

By nearly everything you mean the first time when it was not relevant? Pathetic.

do I really have to track down every time you've brought it up? Much more often than I mentioned The Force Unleashed with you. To deny that is absolute laughable.

Key words: when not relevant. Of course I'm gona bring it up when you are drinking Vaylin's c-unt juice like it's kool aid.

nope, you've brought it up in completely non-relevant context as well.

Regardless, we're derailing Ant's thread, so I'm gonna cut it short by calling you both forgetful and a hypocrite.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Except the fact he wasn't disarmed in the actual movie or the official novel? Neither would miss such an important detail in a match that decided the fate of an entire galaxy.

In the movie, it cuts to Obi-Wan and Vader in the middle of the duel. When it cuts back, Sidious has no saber. Coincidence? I think not. At the very least it's not a contradiction.

And just because it wasn't mentioned in the adult novelization doesn't mean it didn't happen, lol. The novel is very vague about the details of the fight, and instead has poetic stuff in its place.

There're two sources supporting the notion of Yoda disarming Sidious - one of which was written exclusively by Lucas and no one else - and no contradictions. It happened.

Mind posting the statement in the script, pls?

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA.

Originally posted by Azronger
I don't know, nor do I need to.

You kinda do in order to justify this. :/
Yoda would've initially had to widdle away at Sheev's defense, before his speed can disarm him in three blows.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yoda. He moved twice as fast as Sidious in their duel and disarmed him in three blows, according to the junior novel, although some have questioned its validity.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sounds like alternative facts yeah.

Originally posted by MythLord
You kinda do in order to justify this. :/
Yoda would've initially had to widdle away at Sheev's defense, before his speed can disarm him in three blows.

No, I don't need to justify it in any way. What's canon is canon.

Yoda three-shotting Sidious isn't canon. :/

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Also, I believe Sidious was on the defensive the entire time.

Clearly you've never seen the film.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yoda. He moved twice as fast as Sidious in their duel and disarmed him in three blows, according to the junior novel, although some have questioned its validity.

Jesus...

Originally posted by Azronger
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA.
Where the hell does it say yoda is 2x faster than sidious?

Originally posted by ares834
Clearly you've never seen the film.
the film doesn't contradict wither, it just doesn't have those scenes

He's referring to the hyperbole in the ROTS junior novel, but interpreting it literally.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
the film doesn't contradict witherr

Yes it does. We see Yoda on the defensive in the film when he is jumping around dodging Sidious's attacks...

Originally posted by ares834
Yes it does. We see Yoda on the defensive in the film when he is jumping around dodging Sidious's attacks...
Uh, no, thats just using ataru, and dodging someone's attacks doesn't mean you're losing

I'd say the fight started with Palpatine on the offensive, switched to Yoda on the offensive when Palpatine almost fell off the pod, and then at the end was relatively equal.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's referring to the hyperbole in the ROTS junior novel, but interpreting it literally.
Well regardless the film never shows yoda being on the defensive, it just shows him using ataru and matching sidious in bladelocks, dodging someone's attacks isn't a show of inferiority anyway

Depends what you're considering offensive / defensive. Taking the film frame-by-frame, Palpatne's striking more than Yoda.

From just eye-counting, Palpatine seems to get in over 20 attacks to Yoda's 15 (minus the scene where the pod is going up and it's too small to see).

Yoda definitely seemed to have more difficulty getting past Palpatine's outer-layer and landing blows than Palpatine did, which makes sense due to the height difference.

The times Yoda seized the advantage seemed to be after bladelocks, in which it appears he overpowers Palpatine most of the time and then followed up with some attacks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Depends what you're considering offensive / defensive. Taking the film frame-by-frame, Palpatne's striking more than Yoda.

From just eye-counting, Palpatine seems to get in over 20 attacks to Yoda's 15 (minus the scene where the pod is going up and it's too small to see).
Regardless of how many times he tried to strike his saber, its not like he ever drove yoda's aback. Yoda hopping around sidious was yoda trying to outmanuever him.
Regardless, sidious failing to land hit son yoda with those strikes doesn't at all indicate he had an advantage. And yet again, sidious uses the most offensive form anyway.
On the otherhand, actually driving someone(who is using the most attack orientated form back) and disarming off their saber is an indication of an edge.
Now you could argue it was due to an enviromental disadvantage, but then there's yoda forcing sidious into the pod in the first place.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Well regardless the film never shows yoda being on the defensive, it just shows him using ataru and matching sidious in bladelocks, dodging someone's attacks isn't a show of inferiority anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q&t=161

Originally posted by ares834
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DI8kkR9G0Q&t=161


I was talking about them as duelists. And regardless that exchange ends with sidious almost getting his faced smashed in by a pod. I mean if we really just want to ignore material outside of the movie, I could say sidious was ont he defensive in their lightning battle based on yoda stepping forward and sidious falling back

I don't care what you were talking about. I was responding to Nuisance Bird and nothing in their post suggested he was only talking about the duel (though that was likely his intention) so I posted a smart ass reply.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang


Yoda force blasting sidious had nothing to do with speed,

Catching Sidious off guard?

Yoda did not catch sidious off guard, sidious was facing yoda for several seconds before yoda blasted him.

the fact that Sidious was able to physically get away AND gain the high ground on Yoda in a matter of seconds shows a superiority in at least Force speed for Palpatine

Originally posted by MythLord
Yoda three-shotting Sidious isn't canon. :/

It's Legends canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's referring to the hyperbole in the ROTS junior novel, but interpreting it literally.

Based on what is it hyperbole?

Yoda probably.

"Redouble" means to enhance something, not that it's literally doubled.

Even if you do take Yoda as having disarmed Palpatine, that was solely due to an environmental advantage, per Gillard and Lucas.

Gillard has said that once you get to level nine, the difference lies in fighting styles and the "circumstances of the surroundings". Gillard and Lucas have also stated that Palpatine's fighting style is "one in which you'll never get the better of him". Yoda won only because of the environment.

Gillard's even said that Palpatine's "better than Yoda in a way" and "beyond anything we've experienced", referring to lightsaber combat. The website says that the Emperor can best any Jedi in lightsaber combat. Some of the developers mention in an Insider issue that they intended to depict Yoda meeting his match against the Emperor . And Ian McDiarmid's said that Palpatine's the fastest character in the films, for whatever its worth.

Sidious was described as being trapped within the Senate Pod, with little room to manuever, when Yoda pinned him there.

Granted, it was Yoda who drove him back there in the first place, but that's not really what we're discussing.

Indeed. Back and forths exist, especially between two combatants of relatively equal standing. Even a tired AotC Obi-Wan drove Dooku back once.

It's likely that Yoda drove Sidious into the pod as part of that "back and forth", with the pod limiting Palpatine's space. That prevented him from forcing Yoda back out.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Indeed. Back and forths exist, especially between two combatants of relatively equal standing. Even a tired AotC Obi-Wan drove Dooku back once.

It's likely that Yoda drove Sidious into the pod as part of that "back and forth", with the pod limiting Palpatine's space. That prevented him from forcing Yoda back out.
1. Wasn't that retconned? Besides juyo=/ Makashi
2. Given that they started their duel right at the end of the room, sidious was driven back a significant distance, it wasn't just a couple of steps. Furthermore, as sidios uses the more offensive style, he should be doing most of the driving if he was better.

1. Retconned by what?

2. Ataru is "the aggressive style", lol. Sidious' mixed form isn't more aggressive than that.

The fact of the matter is that Palpatine is at least as good as Yoda in both dueling and the Force. There's no way around that.

Also, to add one more quote to the list, Yoda admits in the novel that "he just didn't have it" as he was dueling Palpatine.

Fair points, Nova.

1. by dooku easily beating kenobi+anakin and dooku being stated to be toying with kenobi
2. I've reread the sidious respect thread, sidious being>yoda as a duelist has a lot of evidence quote wise,
3. That was referring force wise

1. Dooku was toying with kenobi and so logically, let kenobi drive him back. Furthermore considering this also had aotc anakin being a legitmate challenge for dooku, its not consstent with later lore.Besides dooku's style isn't at allt he same as sidious's and he tends to retreat and elt people driv ehim.
2. Which was rreferring to the force based parts of it to, throwing pods at each other, lighting exchanges ect.And in fairness, that potrayal of the fight is an outlier which compared to the movie, the script, and the junior novel is very favorable to sidious. It has sidious outright beating yoda at the end rather than an explosive stalemate, had sidious force blasting yoda at the start when the exact opposite happened in the movie and script.

This isn't to say yoda and sidious are perfect equals(as multiple secondary sources and quotes you've used show, they aren't).

1. Dooku was still clearly better than Obi-Wan even when toying with him. There was a brief moment where he was actually driven back (as in not a voluntary retreat), but recovered quickly. The forms don't matter. My point is that it can happen.

2. No, it was in the midst of their lightsaber duel. And whether or not the quote is fallible, it's hardly alone. It sits alongside a mountain's worth of quotes stating that Yoda couldn't beat Sidious. I'm just saying that I identified one more quote to add to the list.

1. I can't seem to find the attack of the clones novelization fight anywhere so I'll take your word for it
2. Yea I know, I've already conceded rots sidious>= yoda

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yoda did not catch sidious off guard, sidious was facing yoda for several seconds before yoda blasted him.

They were just standing apart.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
They were just standing apart.
So...

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
So...

They were facing each other for a moment, so Sidious had time to get ready for an attack.

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
They were facing each other for a moment, so Sidious had time to get ready for an attack.
thats my point, it had nothing to with speed

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
thats my point, it had nothing to with speed

Wouldn't speed be needed to vary Sidious off guard?

Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
Wouldn't speed be needed to vary Sidious off guard?
except there's no reasaon for sidious to be off guard there. Thats a legimate tk showing for yoda granted sidious could replicate it likely to at least as good of an extent(and if we go by the adult novel's depiction, outlier it is, sidious is able to force blast yoda)