Who and what is Valkorion?

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AncientPower
The debate has raged about what Valkorion really is, a tug of war over the validity of certain accolades and their effects on the Emperor. This thread shall serve multiple purposes, mainly regarding what Valkorion himself really is.

Let's begin with his numerous personalities, Valkorion was born Tenebrae, a Sith Pureblood but does not consider himself a Sith Lord:



He is an Ancient Sith Pureblood Entity inhabiting the body of Zakuul's great Champion Valkorion, through whom he shed the mask of Sith Emperor, unburdened by the Sith Empire and its archaic ways:



'Valkorion' much like 'Vitiate' is yet another mask or form of the Entity:



He was simultaneously manipulating the Empire towards his original goal of galaxy-wide destruction:





This is all cleared up by Hall Hood:

https://i.gyazo.com/ce74e70d08d9354522cb28e1f37daeb6.png

Both Valkorion and Vitiate are merely masks of the Entity born Tenebrae, who desired a new galaxy.

DarthAnt66
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I am gabeblake50.

AncientPower
With that cleared up, we must move on to what Tenebrae actually is. Tenebrae was transformed by the Ritual of Nathema, absorbing the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see:





He was infact transformed into a being unique in the galaxy:



He had become a manifestation of his ritual, utter annihilation:



He is thus stated to have become an avatar, incarnation and embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force:







His mere presence would reduce an entire Dark Council to trembling sycophants:



The ancient Sith Entity born Tenebrae as the Sith Emperor Vitiate was far more powerful than Revan, who was a persistent cyst, which continued to grow stronger throughout the Force:







Revan himself was far more powerful than his former Sith apprentice Darth Malak, whom was the primary reason for causing the Dark Side of the Force to cloud the vision of the Jedi Order to a degree they couldn't sense the massacre of the Dantooine Enclave:



Many others have questioned how powerful the ancient Sith could be if his effects on the Force aren't so obvious. As seen above, he's far more powerful than other dark siders who have achieved such strength, but the true reason his presence hasn't had such an effect is due to his state of being. Vitiate as explained above became a manifestation of the Void of the Force which permeates Nathema. Nathema's Void has far worse effects than a Dark Side Nexus such as Malachor V:





Infact Vitiate's power makes the incalculable powers of the Dread Masters-enhanced by the Phobis Devices-insignificant, despite the fact they transformed Oricon into a hellscape immeasurably strong with the Dark Side of the Force:











So the ancient Sith Entity born as Tenebrae, is far beyond even the most corrupting Nexus of the Dark Side of the Force, be it Malachor V or Oricon.

AncientPower
Indeed, his power is the very extreme of the corrosive powers of the Dark Side of the Force, beyond ritual or superweapon:



The Cataclysmic event was not only limited to Ziost but had a direct effect on Ziost's star and Ziost's surrounding moons:

http://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11117/111179633/4579461-0619578816-vZd4b.gif

It has been claimed that the effect on Ziost's sun was merely an optical illusion due to Ziost's discoloration, but a comparison of these images refutes that:

Before:
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5126504-before.png

After
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5126506-after.png

Ziost's sun under the effects of the planet's discoloration:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/4565884-ziost+pa.png

This was achieved by the Dark Side Entity after escaping his prison on Yavin IV and replenishing his depleted power with the deaths of Ziost's citizens:





The destruction of Ziost transformed the Entity's power, once more increasing his immense strength:



My conclusion:

Valkorion's powers of the Dark Side of the Force have clearly reached such heights so as to be insurmountable. Only a Dark Side Entity such as the Son or Abeloth could be definitively more masterful and powerful.

DarthAnt66
Great post. People fail to realize that Valkorion Vitiate Tenebrae isn't just an advanced Sith like Darth Plagueis.

He's something so much different - and so much more.

Deronn_solo
nice post AP. thumb up

I'll await the inevitable show this is to become though, while eating cyber popcorn.

DarthAnt66
"Valkorion's a Sith! The developer was wrong! Valkorion lied! The codex states it (although let's ignore the codex alleges Vitiate > Abeloth and the Son too)!"

Deronn_solo
Beni, Urs, Wollf, and Az are totally gonna be on the front line.


Tempest is gonna come out of retirement using his sacred battle meditation to grant them power with excellent articulations and sly jabs.

AncientPower
They can 'argue' all they want, doesn't change any of the facts provided.

S_W_LeGenD
Tenebrae became a Sith Lord at the age of 13 (i.e. Lord Vitiate) but this chapter lasts until Ritual of Nathema.

Therefore, this statement:

Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived.

- applies to Lord Vitiate only.

Post-Nathema Vitiate is not a Sith Lord but a Dark Side Entity and he adopted different identities for different civilizations. As Darth Nyriss aptly put:

"Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born."

wink

Ursumeles
Just a note, I havent read the post yet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived.

- applies to Lord Vitiate only.

But it applies smile

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Beni, Urs, Wollf, and Az are totally gonna be on the front line.

Honestly, I am not sure anymore on Valk being a Sith. A darksider - yes. But a Sith?

SunRazer

Geistalt
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Honestly, I am not sure anymore on Valk being a Sith. A darksider - yes. But a Sith? Well, Valkorion as an entity no longer has a species...

Geistalt
Besides, isn't the SWTOR Encyclopedia an "in-universe source?"
Courtesy of ILS

AncientPower
Technically yes and technically no, it's written from an in-universe perspective but it uses actual game lore and a mix of OOU when making statements. It's a strange one.

EDIT: For example, the excerpt you provided makes it clear that the Encyclopedia is accurate regardless of being in-universe.

Geistalt
So apparently, the Sith Emperor > Abeloth.

AncientPower
Given she's thirteen times more powerful than FOTJ Luke, I'd say no.

AncientPower

SunRazer
A dozen, not a baker's dozen. She's twelve times stronger than Luke.

As for my thoughts on the thread, I've only partly read it. I decided to look at the comments first to see what the reaction was like.

AncientPower
Good point.

S_W_LeGenD
@SunRazer

Post-Nathema Vitiate is referred to as Lord Vitiate only in the context of Ritual of Nathema and immediate developments after that. For example:

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

However, same source makes this point afterwards:

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement corroborates the view of Darth Nyriss:

"Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born."

Taken from Star Was: The Old Republic: Revan

----

More importantly, we have revelations that suggest that Post-Nathema Vitiate is a being unique in the galaxy; an entity who embraced different identities for different civilizations such as Sith Emperor for Sith Empire and Immortal Emperor for Zakuul Empire. At this stage, he is no mere Sith Lord.

SunRazer
@AP - Well, the thread is basically you copying quotes and saying them, then jumping to a conclusion at the end. Not sure what you want me to make of that. There's almost no actual argument here.

I'm fine with the comparison to Malachor, but using the Meetra's comparison in the novel doesn't make much sense. Meetra's entire ordeal on Nathema makes no sense.

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
@SunRazer

Post-Nathema Vitiate is referred to as Lord Vitiate only in the context of Ritual of Nathema and immediate developments after that. For example:

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

However, same source makes this point afterwards:

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement corroborates the view of Darth Nyriss:

"Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born."

Taken from Star Was: The Old Republic: Revan

And then we have several statements implying uniqueness of Post-Nathema Vitiate and being something more than that.

Well, for one thing, your quote from Nyriss explicitly calls him a Sith, but there's also other quotes that do the same. You can be some reality-warping entity and more of an energy being than a living one and still be a Sith. Case in point being Palpatine...

AncientPower
I'm making conclusions based on evidence sourced, in other words I see nothing to refute said conclusion nor another conclusion to make based on said statement.

I'm making it clear that 1. He is factually not a Sith Lord, that's just another mask. 2. His powers have evolved to the most extreme depths of the dark side of the Force, thus negating that Sidious could be even moreso.

I'm perfectly fine with them being equals however, because Sidious gets the same accolades as of DE.

SunRazer
Yes, but there's no argument. It's literally just evidence and a conclusion.

I'm also not sure how you can bring up the novel quote about Vitiate no longer being a member of the Sith species and then go on to say that Valkorion's codex was referring to him as a member of the Sith species...

And sure, Vitiate did take the dark side to the extreme, but not to its utmost extreme. He never achieved that level of reality warping power that Palpatine wielded by DE, and in part by RotJ.

AncientPower
He was no longer a member of the species but that is his origin.

No he didn't warp reality, instead he was a manifestation of the Void of Annihilation. Two very different but exceptionally impressive states of being.

SunRazer
In which case "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity" would not be referring to that...

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, for one thing, your quote from Nyriss explicitly calls him a Sith, but there's also other quotes that do the same. You can be some reality-warping entity and more of an energy being than a living one and still be a Sith. Case in point being Palpatine...
Post-Nathema Vitiate is a being unique in the galaxy; an entity who embraced different identities for different civilizations such as Sith Emperor for Sith Empire and Immortal Emperor for Zakuul Empire and not to forget that he continued to grow in power with passage of time. More importantly, he completely shed the identity and philosophy of Sith after his Voice was struck down in Dromund Kaas.

We have this in the nutshell:

Immortal Emperor > Sith Emperor > Lord Vitiate

Darth Plagueis was a Sith Lord but not an Emperor and never stopped being a Sith at any point.

Palpatine became an Emperor during OT era. I don't recall him shedding his Sith identity during DE era either. If you want to perceive DE Palpatine as a being above Sith, I am OK with it.

Geistalt
8000 Sith Lords + Pre-Ritual Vitiate > Sidious, then.

I give up. ggwp

Unless a) the Encyclopedia's wrong or b) largest ≠ strongest.

And he still followed Sith teachings. It was all about getting what he wants.

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Post-Nathema Vitiate is a being unique in the galaxy; an entity who embraced different identities for different civilizations such as Sith Emperor for Sith Empire and Immortal Emperor for Zakuul Empire. He shed the identity of Sith after his Voice was struck down in Dromund Kaas.

And this:

Immortal Emperor > Sith Emperor > Lord Vitiate

Darth Plagueis was a Sith Lord but not an Emperor and never stopped being a Sith at any point. Same goes for Palpatine.

Your case makes no sense. IIRC, Palpatine isn't even referred to as a Sith by DE anymore by any source, and he too is now an energy being that is not defined by any living form. It's like with Valkorion. If you grant Valkorion the status of moving beyond the Sith, then you have to do the same with Palpatine. Otherwise, it doesn't work. And Palpatine is the most powerful expression of the dark side to date, bar the Son (who is exempt by virtue of a retcon). That would include Valkorion until he gets a quote putting him above Palpatine.

As far as identities are concerned, Palpatine was just the Emperor by that point. He was interested in attaining ultimate power for himself, not furthering the goals of the Sith. It's not made explicitly clear that he's surrendered the Sith identity but he's not referred to as a Sith in any context by DE, to my knowledge.

AncientPower
Originally posted by SunRazer
In which case "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity" would not be referring to that...

He is an ancient Sith Entity, but of course he isn't actually a member of the Sith species anymore, he's an Entity. DE Palpatine is still a human, but he's become more energy than physical. A more literal comparison is that Grievous is a Kaleesh Cyborg, but still a Kaleesh.

Pretty much every Sith spirit in the book is still referred to be their original race too. Nihilus is even referred to as a man, but in spiritual form.

S_W_LeGenD
@SunRazer

Recheck my (edited) response above.

And please wait a bit before responding to any post of mine because I tend to correct my posts after making them.

Geistalt
Let's just leave it at that and never rank him again. Ever.

SunRazer
@Legend - I edited my response as well.

@Gesitalt - History's most powerful dark side master up to TOR, not after. And it's in-universe, as you correctly pointed out. There are definite limitations to the knowledge of the Encyclopedia (IIRC, it didn't even know the outcome of the Malgus fight).

AncientPower
Honestly it's getting pretty facetious to cling to one (in-universe) Codex Entry when all other evidence points to Valkorion no longer being a Sith. Hall Hood even says that they are all just masks, all means to his end. Escaping his past.

S_W_LeGenD
@SunRazer

I don't see an edit in your response to me.

Geistalt
Originally posted by AncientPower
Honestly it's getting pretty facetious to cling to one (in-universe) Codex Entry when all other evidence points to Valkorion no longer being a Sith. Such as?

And how do you know the Codex entries are Watsonian?

Beniboybling
Nice thread. Good Plagueis wank. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Your case makes no sense. IIRC, Palpatine isn't even referred to as a Sith by DE anymore by any source, and he too is now an energy being that is not defined by any living form. It's like with Valkorion. If you grant Valkorion the status of moving beyond the Sith, then you have to do the same with Palpatine. Otherwise, it doesn't work. And Palpatine is the most powerful expression of the dark side to date, bar the Son (who is exempt by virtue of a retcon). That would include Valkorion until he gets a quote putting him above Palpatine.

As far as identities are concerned, Palpatine was just the Emperor by that point. He was interested in attaining ultimate power for himself, not furthering the goals of the Sith. It's not made explicitly clear that he's surrendered the Sith identity but he's not referred to as a Sith in any context by DE, to my knowledge.
Here:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Palpatine became an Emperor during OT era. I don't recall him shedding his Sith identity during DE era either. If you want to perceive DE Palpatine as a being above Sith, I am OK with it.

My case makes perfect sense.

Tenebrae < Lord Vitiate < Sith Emperor* < Immortal Emperor

*Grey Zone phase

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nice thread. Good Plagueis wank. thumb up
Darth Plagueis isn't benefiting from anything here. His benchmark is restricted to being a Sith Lord with natural life. Now dry those tears like you often say.

Geistalt
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nice thread. Good Plagueis wank. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion:-

Entity: Check
Living: No
Identity: Immortal Emperor
Affiliation: Zakuul

Darth Plagueis:-

Entity: No
Living: Yes
Identity: Sith Lord
Affiliation: Sith

Plagueis's wank doesn't apply.

Geistalt
Each incarnation was only a mask. He was still Tenebrae.

Those origins destroyed him 'cause he wasn't even sorry. He never regretted what he did. He was still a Sith who acquired power through greed.

MythLord
He's a shitty character you keep wanking. thumb up

Beniboybling
lmao thumb up

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Plagueis isn't benefiting from anything here. His benchmark is restricted to being a Sith Lord with natural life. Now dry those tears like you often say. No need darling cause they ain't there, not when Emperor Vitiate has been recognised as a Sith Lord by multiple sources, and enjoyed all the trappings of one. sad

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Geistalt
Each incarnation was only a mask. He was still Tenebrae.

Those origins destroyed him 'cause he wasn't even sorry. He never regretted what he did. He was still a Sith who gained power through greed.
Quest for power is not a tenant of Sith philosophy only. Practitioners of Dark Side - irrespective of alignment - strive for greater power in general.

Vitiate deemed Sith teachings as archaic at one point and embraced a new identity after that - Immortal Emperor. He created a new philosophy of limitless power and faction as well.

Characters are judged on the basis of their actions, not on the basis of biased notions of fans.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Valkorion:-

Entity: Check
Living: No
Identity: Immortal Emperor
Affiliation: ZakuulValkorion isn't alive? Lmfao.

Geistalt
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Quest for power is not a tenant of Sith philosophy only. Practitioners of Dark Side - irrespective of alignment - strive for greater power in general.

Vitiate deemed Sith teachings as archaic at one point Now you (might) see what a hypocritical coward he is.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No need darling cause they ain't there, not when Emperor Vitiate has been recognised as a Sith Lord by multiple sources, and enjoyed all the trappings of one. sad
Their isn't a source that covers his entire story arc in proper. Sorry. smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion isn't alive? Lmfao.
Apparitions are alive? Didn't knew that.

Beniboybling
Appartion? So Valkorion is just an illusion now? OK. smile

On the other hand no, Valkorion is a living entity who takes living forms. Get a clue.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their isn't a source that covers his entire story arc in proper. Sorry. smile Uhuh, sadly the source material doesn't have an expiry date. So I'll await proof that Vitiate has been retconned into no longer being considered a Sith Lord by the history books before dismissing them. smile

Until then though:

"As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge."

"An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality."

thumb up

darthbane77
Good thread, saving it for future reference.

Azronger
This was a good effort. Plagueis doesn't need accolades to be more powerful, though. smile

MythLord
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge."

"An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality."

thumb up

Beni you don't understand. He's the Dark Lord of the Sith Pureblood race, not a true Sith Lord. He has redefined the Sith, he was just once a Sith Pureblood and it obviously only refers to that and nothing else.

Beniboybling
Ah of course, though naturally he never actually lived anyway as he is not living and is in fact a cosmic jelly bean. So quote doesn't apply.

MythLord
He is actually Eternity and Infinity fused into one.

Ursumeles
Tbh, just ignoring the other accolades, instrad of countering them, and just focusing on one, single Codex is dumb.

Deronn_solo
Valkorion isn't a Sith belonging to the Order, or anything of the like - simple as that.

Beniboybling
It's pretty simple yeah. "Tenebrae" masquerading as Vitiate was a Sith Lord. "Tenebrae" masquerading as Valkorion was a Sith entity, but indeed unaffiliated with any Sith Order. Both were practitioners of the dark side, and both are inferior to Plags and Palps.

Deronn_solo
Yeah, because he was a pure blooded Sith species, not because he's a Sith Lord.

E.I. - apparitions being called a human spirit despite it not being a human anymore. Dude clearly isn't a Sith by Valkorion, as per his words, his credo and others during KotFE.

Beniboybling
Uh huh, like I said I agree with you that Valkorion is not a Sith Lord (though Vitiate certainly is), but as an ancient Sith entity, present tense, Valkorion remains at the very least recognised as "of the Sith" in whatever form.

Deronn_solo
So a ghost, a la Kayako Saeki, is still a human, because it has been referred to a human entity in the present tense, and therefore a quote referring to, let's say, Usain Bolt being the fatest human alive applies to it?

'cuz that literally what you're saying here.

Beniboybling
No, because a human ghost is dead. sad

Personally though, I don't recall saying anything like that. smile

Deronn_solo
But still a human, per what you're claiming with Valkorion.

Beniboybling
What do you think I'm claiming about Valkorion? All I said is that he is of the Sith, in some shape or form. Is this not the case? mmm

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uhuh, sadly the source material doesn't have an expiry date. So I'll await proof that Vitiate has been retconned into no longer being considered a Sith Lord by the history books before dismissing them. smile
A book is only valid for the content it covers.

We can use TOR Encyclopedia to learn about Vitiate's history but this book doesn't covers the content of Shadow of Revan, Rise of the Emperor, Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne. So much has changed since the Great Galactic War that TOR Encyclopedia is no longer a definitive source for evaluating Vitiate's exploits (and his abandonment of Sith faction).

I am sorry but sometimes you need to look at things from real-world perspective to reach an informed conclusion about them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Until then though:

"As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge."
Darth Plagueis doesn't knows much about Vitiate. And neither this novel is a definitive source for evaluating Vitiate due to limited knowledge of its author about the character in question.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality."

thumb up
Again, this book covers only the Lord Vitiate incarnation. Nothing after that.

And this book doesn't declares Palpatine as the strongest Sith Lord in a definitive way. So there's that.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What do you think I'm claiming about Valkorion? All I said is that he is of the Sith, in some shape or form. Is this not the case? mmm

In the sense that he's of pure-blooded Sith origin when he became an entity, the same way a human spirit was a human before it became a apparition, yes.

But I'm sure the Plagueis blurb only covers beings of the Sith Lord variety.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Appartion? So Valkorion is just an illusion now? OK. smile

On the other hand no, Valkorion is a living entity who takes living forms. Get a clue.
Wrong, my friend.

Valkorion developed the capability to exist as an apparition with the power to possess living beings and use them as puppets of his will. Valkorion seized to be a living being when he shed his mortal coil for the first time; he cheated death at this point.

Valkorion was a living being up to the point of Revan only.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
But I'm sure the Plagueis blurb only covers beings of the Sith Lord variety.
Living beings at that.

Deronn_solo
honestly these arguments are laem.

no one is ever gonna budge on their stance, so why even bother repeating the same thing in ad infinitum on every thread?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
In the sense that he's of pure-blooded Sith origin when he became an entity, the same way a human spirit was a human before it became a apparition, yes.

But I'm sure the Plagueis blurb only covers beings of the Sith Lord variety. I'm not even talking about the blurb babe, just making some general observations. In which case a potential reading yeah, could also be because he was a Sith Lord before he became an entity as well, or perhaps another reason.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
honestly these arguments are laem.

no one is ever gonna budge on their stance, so why even bother repeating the same thing in ad infinitum on every thread? Wrong DC, everyday the TOR brigade comes up with new and innovative ways to fail. sad

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wrong, my friend.

Valkorion developed the capability to exist as an apparition with the power to possess living beings and use them as puppets of his will. Valkorion seized to be a living being when he shed his mortal coil for the first time; he cheated death at this point.

Valkorion was a living being up to the point of Revan only. Quite, Valkorion hollowed out living beings to house his life force, cheated death to stay alive, only to eventually perish i.e. stop living.

Honestly its really sad that its comes to this, that I actually have to explain to the TOR phags how Valkorion is alive. facepalm

EDIT:

http://i.imgur.com/8ovx7zl.png

Case closed. Kek.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A book is only valid for the content it covers.A made up rule, any entry into continuity is valid for the entire breadth of that continuity. That's how it works.

The SWTORE remains a definitive source on TOR and indeed Vitiate as long as it 1. remains part of Legends continuity 2. is not retconned by newer sources. Try to understand that again, sourcebooks don't have expiry dates.

In which case I'd advise on reading up on how continuity works.

Not the point, the point is that a student of Sith history, the fact that Plagueis recognised Vitiate as a Sith Lord reflects the fact that the (historical) record too acknowledged him as such, just as the record had Nihilus down as a Sith Lord as well, despite the reality being more complex.

Note: the same record has Darth Plagueis down as the most powerful of said Sith Lords. thumb up

It covers Vitiate's feat on Nathema, it refers to Emperor Vitiate holistically AKA a Dark Lord of the Sith.

But favours him nonetheless, yeah.

Zenwolf
Why not just ask BW on the matter to see what's definite? Simple question, is Vitiate/Valk more powerful than RotsRotjDark Empire Sidious?

Nephthys
Yeah, why have debates when we can just ask people who's better.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why not just ask BW on the matter to see what's definite? Simple question, is Vitiate/Valk more powerful than RotsRotjDark Empire Sidious? To which they would either offer 1. their opinion 2. a non-answer. erm

Zenwolf
Well it's not as if you guys haven't ask authors before. Or used quotes. I just find this whole back and forth thing to get old.

Beniboybling
About there own works yeah. And even then, its not strictly canon.

S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not the point, the point is that a student of Sith history, the fact that Plagueis recognised Vitiate as a Sith Lord reflects the fact that the (historical) record too acknowledged him as such, just as the record had Nihilus down as a Sith Lord as well, despite the reality being more complex.

Note: the same record has Darth Plagueis down as the most powerful of said Sith Lords. thumb up
Darth Plagueis is infallible and all-knowing now? roll eyes (sarcastic)

An individual who was identified (and documented) as the Sith Emperor in records for a vast period of his existence, is likely to be perceived as a Sith by individuals in the future UNLESS they had a suspect that there's more than meets the eye in this case. Unfortunately, Darth Plagueis's knowledge of the character in question was limited.

Consider real-world perspective for this matter. If you were a Republican in the past but switched your allegiance to Democrats recently, I will identify you as a Democrat at present. Your past is irrelevant to me unless a reference to it is necessary in an autobiography.

In the nutshell, this entire argument comes down to interpretation and perception.

Do also keep this in mind:

Though the Jedi archives held reports, recordings, holocrons, and data from throughout their history, the archives also contained incomplete information, inaccuracies, half-remembered stories, omissions, and outright falsehoods.

Taken from Star Wars: Core Rulebook

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It covers Vitiate's feat on Nathema, it refers to Emperor Vitiate holistically AKA a Dark Lord of the Sith.
Sorry! This book covers Vitiate's story arc up to the point of Ritual of Nathema only. He (was) an ancient Dark Lord of the Sith during those days.

Same book also describes Ziost but does not covers Valkorion's part in its destruction.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But favours him nonetheless, yeah.
1. In the absence of full account of Vitiate.
2. This revelation is open to interpretation.

Take a look:

Emperor Palpatine, secretly known as Darth Sidious, remains the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side adherent in the galaxy. His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith.

The top statement is definitive. However, the bottom statement leaves room for interpretation because the word 'power' is subjective in its meaning. It could be taking into consideration Palpatine's political strength as well.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Beniboybling
About there own works yeah. And even then, its not strictly canon.

Hm..yet they are used for debates and in RT? Hm...plus Vitiate/Valk is a creation of BW yes? Or at the least just ask the guy who created the character.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm..yet they are used for debates and in RT? Hm...plus Vitiate/Valk is a creation of BW yes? Or at the least just ask the guy who created the character. The other guy isn't though. And that's their prerogative. Whomever you may be referring to.

@Leg, I won't be wasting anymore time on you. Sry.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The other guy isn't though. And that's their prerogative. Whomever you may be referring to.

@Leg, I won't be wasting anymore time on you. Sry.

/Shrug

Fair I guess.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Why not just ask BW on the matter to see what's definite? Simple question, is Vitiate/Valk more powerful than RotsRotjDark Empire Sidious?
This came from one of the writers of BioWare:

The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.

History of the Old Republic stretches from 25035 BBY to 32 BBY in the lore.

If Revan > Darth Plagueis according to BioWare then you can do the math for Valkorion.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This came from one of the writers of BioWare:

The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.

History of the Old Republic stretches from 25035 BBY to 32 BBY in the lore.

If Revan > Darth Plagueis according to BioWare then you can do the math for Valkorion.

Eh? From what I'm reading the Old Republic era is from 25,053 BBY to 1,000 BBY, before it goes to the RotE era.

SunRazer
Yeah, Plagueis is from RotE. And that quote doesn't put Revan above Plagueis, Jesus Christ...

NewGuy01
"two of the" =/= "the two"

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Eh? From what I'm reading the Old Republic era is from 25,053 BBY to 1,000 BBY, before it goes to the RotE era.
That statement is not era specific. History of the Old Republic is the key term and it stretches from 25,053 BBY - 33 BBY encompassing several eras.

In each Star Wars novel;

OLD REPUBLIC (5000 BBY - 33 YEARS BEFORE Star Wars: A New Hope)

Wookieepedia classifications are not accurate.

SunRazer
Right, but the books also establish a difference between the Old Republic Era, which only goes up to Bane's time, and the Rise of the Empire era, which is from then on.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, but the books also establish a difference between the Old Republic Era, which only goes up to Bane's time, and the Rise of the Empire era, which is from then on.
Here:

http://i65.tinypic.com/24llx8x.png

And where do the find the word era in the statement from BioWare? They considered history of the Old Republic on the whole.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Tempest is gonna come out of retirement

Unlikely. Me coming out of retirement for AP would be like me coming out of retirement for Leg. This thread has all the charm and factual basis of a Trump press conference.

SunRazer
Just where did you get that from? I quickly grabbed my copies of Darth Plagueis and Kenobi off the shelf and they had the Rise of the Empire era starting at 67 BBY. My scanner's broken so I can't scan it for you right now.

BioWare's referring to the game The Old Republic, lol.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.
facepalm
Goddamn, Leg, when you try to argue that Yoda isn't the strongest Jedi of all time, because he is only One of them then how the ****ing hell can you argue that Revan > Plagueis, because Revan is one of the strongest Force Users ever?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just where did you get that from? I quickly grabbed my copies of Darth Plagueis and Kenobi off the shelf and they had the Rise of the Empire era starting at 67 BBY. My scanner's broken so I can't scan it for you right now.
It is from my copy of Darth Plagueis.

Originally posted by SunRazer
BioWare's referring to the game The Old Republic, lol.
Read it carefully:

The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
facepalm
Goddamn, Leg, when you try to argue that Yoda isn't the strongest Jedi of all time, because he is only One of them then how the ****ing hell can you argue that Revan > Plagueis, because Revan is one of the strongest Force Users ever?
Instead of presenting a facepalm, try to comprehend what I stated. It seems like I am dealing with kids and college dropouts here.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Instead of presenting a facepalm, try to comprehend what I stated. It seems like I am dealing with kids and college dropouts here.
Tell me how it says Revan > Plagueis.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Tell me how it says Revan > Plagueis.
Here:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This came from one of the writers of BioWare:

The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.

History of the Old Republic stretches from 25035 BBY to 33 BBY in the lore.

If Revan > Darth Plagueis according to BioWare then you can do the math for Valkorion.

Do you understand the timeline associated with the Old Republic?

Again, that statement is from BioWare and I posted it in response to a query from member Zenwolf. You reserve your facepalm for BioWare, not me,

SunRazer
@Legend - Do you have the hardback? That probably explains why.

I don't know how the higlighted parts matter, but it's all meaningless in the end anyway because the quote only expresses Revan and Vitiate being two of the most powerful beings in the OR era, not the concrete two most powerful. In no way does Plagueis fall under that jurisdiction.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
@Legend - Do you have the hardback? That probably explains why.

I don't know how the higlighted parts matter, but it's all meaningless in the end anyway because the quote only expresses Revan and Vitiate being two of the most powerful beings in the OR era, not the concrete two most powerful. In no way does Plagueis fall under that jurisdiction.
Sorry, no mention of word 'era' in that statement.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Here:



Do you understand the timeline associated with the Old Republic?

Again, that statement is from BioWare and I posted it in response to a query from member Zenwolf. You reserve your facepalm for BioWare, not me,
Do you understand that two of the strongest =/= the two strongest?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Do you understand that two of the strongest =/= the two strongest?
Which genius came up with this stupid logic?

Two of the most powerful means just that.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1932787/xi-and-obama-what-happened-when-two-most-powerful-men

SunRazer
I know English isn't your first language, but this isn't that hard to grasp.

"Two of the most powerful" means you've selected any random two of a particular group (the most powerful Force users of TOR).

"The two most powerful means" you've selected specifically the top two.

Your article says Xi Jinping and Obama are "two of the most powerful", meaning that they're two among the most powerful in the world, but not necessarily the two most powerful (where's Putin?).

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Which genius came up with this stupid logic?

Two of the most powerful means just that.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1932787/xi-and-obama-what-happened-when-two-most-powerful-men
Yes, it does.

What it not means that two of the most powerful are the two most powerful.
Do you really don't understand something that simple erm

Xi Jinping is boss btw

Nephthys
Legend plz

Zenwolf
I don't really see how that timeline makes sense there.

There's large gaps of time not filled in.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
I know English isn't your first language, but this isn't that hard to grasp.

"Two of the most powerful" means you've selected any random two of a particular group (the most powerful Force users of TOR).

"The two most powerful means" you've selected specifically the top two.
English is not my first language but I am an educated individual with the intellectual capability to understand much of the content. Kindly refrain from questioning my comprehension skills with idiotic logic.

According to BioWare, Revan and Emperor Valkorion are the two most powerful beings throughout the history of the Old Republic at minimum.

By the way:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1932787/xi-and-obama-what-happened-when-two-most-powerful-men

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/06/01/two-of-the-most-famous-examples-of-evolution-have-the-same-simple-explanation/

Azronger
This is painful to read.

SunRazer
Ah, **** me. I tried to explain it nicely and it came across as an insult. And somehow that was idiotic logic. Just **** me senseless, will you?

Sorry, Legend, I'm done. My patience is as thin as your understanding. Just because you're educated doesn't mean you're infallible, and here you are alone up against several native English speakers and you still can't accept that you're wrong. Your ego's higher than the Empire State Building and your humility lower than the Challenger Deep.

EDIT: And he gives me more of the "two of the most powerful" articles... you're about as ****ing consistent as pigeon shit on Trafalgar Square.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
English is not my first language but I am an educated individual with the intellectual capability to understand much of the content. Kindly refrain from questioning my comprehension skills with idiotic logic.

According to BioWare, Revan and Emperor Valkorion are the two most powerful beings throughout the history of the Old Republic at minimum.

By the way:

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/1932787/xi-and-obama-what-happened-when-two-most-powerful-men

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/06/01/two-of-the-most-famous-examples-of-evolution-have-the-same-simple-explanation/

You're an idiot of truly epic proportions.
Two of X means just that: of X, these are two. So of the most powerful Force users, per Bioware, Vitiate and Revan are two.

Jesus Christ dude.

Ursumeles
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
According to BioWare, Revan and Emperor Valkorion are the two most powerful beings throughout the history of the Old Republic at minimum
No, it says that they are two of. Not the two.

Also, the links say two of as well.
Xi Jinping aren't necessarily the most powerful, for example.

S_W_LeGenD
Right.

The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor.

You guys are stuck at 'two of the most powerful' part in that statement. However, full statement includes two additional terms - like ever followed by in the history of the Old Republic.

Cherry-picking much?

Ursumeles
No.
We know that they are two of the most powerful individuals that ever lived.
But not the two most powerful, holy sh!t.

@Neph, could you explain it to him?

SunRazer
"Like ever" does not change the fact that he's saying "two of the most powerful", not "the two most powerful".

"Like ever" is in reference to the history of the Old Republic, which is simply setting his sample space (powerful characters in the history of the Old Republic). He's still only taking a random two examples from the sample space, not the top two.

Jesus Christ.

Ursumeles
Plo is the most powerful Jedi ever.

SunRazer
I know that was supposed to be funny, but it just made me contemplate the possibility of Legend failing to interpret "one of the most powerful" as well. And now I'm scared.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Plo is the most powerful Jedi ever.

But does "ever" include, like, the history of the Old Republic??

No??

False comparison.

S_W_LeGenD
I fully understand what "one of the most powerful" stands for.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Ah, **** me. I tried to explain it nicely and it came across as an insult. And somehow that was idiotic logic. Just **** me senseless, will you?

Sorry, Legend, I'm done. My patience is as thin as your understanding. Just because you're educated doesn't mean you're infallible, and here you are alone up against several native English speakers and you still can't accept that you're wrong. Your ego's higher than the Empire State Building and your humility lower than the Challenger Deep.

EDIT: And he gives me more of the "two of the most powerful" articles... you're about as ****ing consistent as pigeon shit on Trafalgar Square.
Right.

Now, with due respect, please explain to me what the statement of BioWare translates into and what was my argument.

I'm listening.

MythLord
Plo iz > Yoda and he struggle wit Asajj!
Asajj is tots gonna lose to HoT. I educated individual, i read this. Look, article:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/flat-earth-library/web-articles

Earth flat, yis.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
Plo iz > Yoda and he struggle wit Asajj!
Asajj is tots gonna lose to HoT. I educated individual, i read this. Look, article:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/flat-earth-library/web-articles

Earth flat, yis.
Not humorous in the slightest.

SunRazer
I explained it to you already... the quote means that of all the "most powerful beings in TOR history", Revan and Vitiare are two of them. That's it. It doesn't mean they're the top two, just that they're any two of the people in that group. That could mean they're any two of the top five, top ten, top twenty, etc.

In no way does that translate to him being definitively more powerful than Plagueis.

If the list was:

1. Plagueis

2. Vitiate

3. Gandhi's Flip Flop

4. X

5. Y

6. Revan

7. Z

Then Revan and Vitiate are still "two of the most powerful" characters. They do not have to be the two most powerful for that accolade to work.

MythLord
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not humorous in the slightest.

Yeah, but humorous in the greatest.

Beniboybling
Every time you think LeG. couldn't get more stupid. He outdoes himself. no expression

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Every time you think LeG. couldn't get more stupid. He outdoes himself. no expression
You concentrate on my response or I am taking it as a concession.

MythLord
ur rly not worth respondin' 2 after 2day
i wont even try and use proper gramar around u, should feel at home tbh

Ursumeles
Originally posted by The_Tempest
But does "ever" include, like, the history of the Old Republic??

No??

False comparison.
True.
It also isn't from Bioware.
Bioware >> other SW sources >>>> liberal media.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
I explained it to you already... the quote means that of all the "most powerful beings in TOR history", Revan and Vitiare are two of them. That's it. It doesn't mean they're the top two, just that they're any two of the people in that group. That could mean they're any two of the top five, top ten, top twenty, etc.

In no way does that translate to him being definitively more powerful than Plagueis.

If the list was:

1. Plagueis

2. Vitiate

3. Gandhi's Flip Flop

4. X

5. Y

6. Revan

7. Z

Then Revan and Vitiate are still "two of the most powerful" characters. They do not have to be the two most powerful for that accolade to work.
OK.

So "two of the most powerful" are not necessarily "the two most powerful," right? But they can be?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by MythLord
ur rly not worth respondin' 2 after 2day
i wont even try and use proper gramar around u, should feel at home tbh
You are irrelevant to my discussion with another member. Mind your own business.

MythLord
if im irrelevant 2 u then u have bad taste

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OK.

So "two of the most powerful" are not necessarily "the two most powerful," right? But they can be?

They can be. The quote does not say it, though. So in no way does Plagueis fall under the jurisdiction of that quote, as I said.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You concentrate on my response or I am taking it as a concession. Feel free to do so, because I won't be bothering to respond. laughing out loud

Though naturally, you'll be drying those tears when you find my opinion fails to change. sad

Beniboybling
Originally posted by MythLord
ur rly not worth respondin' 2 after 2day
i wont even try and use proper gramar around u, should feel at home tbh Friend, he hasn't been worth responding to for years now. smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
They can be. The quote does not say it, though.
OK.

And I stated this:

If Revan > Darth Plagueis according to BioWare then you can do the math for Valkorion.

Notice the word "if" in that?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Feel free to do so, because I won't be bothering to respond. laughing out loud

Though naturally, you'll be drying those tears when you find my opinion fails to change. sad
Not the first time you ran away from a debate with a guy who knows a thing or two about Valkorion. Nice try though.

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fair.

And I stated this:

If Revan > Darth Plagueis according to BioWare then you can do the math for Valkorion.

Right, but there's no point in considering "if's", lol. Not when Plagueis has accolades putting him above Valkorion. smile

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, but there's no point in considering "if's", lol. Not when Plagueis has accolades putting him above Valkorion. smile
Plagueis's quote isn't definitive either. It ranks him above all Sith who ever lived.

Entities and/or spirits are not considered in that.

SunRazer
Valkorion lived. It says that in the codex... even though you shouldn't even have to resort to that.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
Valkorion lived. It says that in the codex...
I believe I addressed this part in this thread before. Here it is: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640189&pagenumber=5

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not the first time you ran away from a debate with a guy who knows a thing or two about Valkorion. Nice try though. Sure thing darl, but like I said in the past, I've decided to keep my engagement with morons to a minimum. Nothing personal. smile

NewGuy01
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I believe I addressed this part in this thread before. Here it is: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640189&pagenumber=5

I think I'm going to cut in, here. See, the quote doesn't say Plagueis was history's most powerful living Sith. It said he was the most powerful Sith who had ever lived.

Even after his initial death, Vitiate was a Sith who had lived, therefore he qualifies. And he was certainly a Sith for a good amount of time; how long is probably the more correct question to be discussing.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure thing darl, but like I said in the past, I've decided to keep my engagement with morons to a minimum. Nothing personal. smile
You made it personal right there. confused

AncientPower
You've met Beni before, right?

Ad hominem is his bread and butter.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Excellent analysis, AP. thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think I'm going to cut in, here. See, the quote doesn't say Plagueis was history's most powerful living Sith. It said he was the most powerful Sith who had ever lived.

Even after his initial death, Vitiate was a Sith who had lived, therefore he qualifies. And he was certainly a Sith for a good amount of time; how long is probably the more correct question to be discussing.
I see your point but Vitiate became Valkorion at some point and also has accolades like he is the most powerful Force-user ever and immeasurably strong in content (and literature) that came the release of Darth Plagueis novel. This novel does not takes these advancements in the story of Vitiate into consideration.

And why are some taking a single statement from a secondary source as gospel? This statement was only on the back cover of the first print of the novel that came out in January 2012. The reprint that came out in October 2012, features a different statement and even that is hyperbole. TOR Encylopedia came out in October 2012, if I am not mistaken so the publisher of the novel had access to more information about Vitiate at this stage.

Back cover of a reprint can carry newer information but primary marketing statement doesn't changes. Check hard and paperback prints of Revan novel for reference.

In case of Palpatine, we have a good argument and huge amount of content at hand. This is not the case with Plagueis.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I personally don't find accolades to be definitive unless it's a consistent theme, like with Sidious. He consistently portrayed as the most powerful villain in terms of success, cunning, raw power, etc. Is that because Sidious is much more well written than Valkorion, generally speaking? I think it certainly contributes to it.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
To elaborate on my previous post, I do feel that Valkorion is obviously meant to parallel DE Sidious, but when we look into something as story relevant as, "who would win in a fight," Bioware wrote Valkorion poorly. This also ties into where I feel Bioware ****ed up with Vitiate/Valkorion as a character. Now you're probably wondering, "Why tf is "who would win in a fight" story relevant?"

Well, Vitiate has a personality. He represents something. He has goals. The Revan Novel, where Vitiate was conceived, gave us a pretty clear idea of what Vitiate represented, at least initially. He was better than you. More experienced, more intellectual, more powerful, more cunning, it didn't matter, he was the ultimate mastermind. I don't have quotes on me, but his unprecedentedly long reign was attributed to his brilliant cunning and masterful manipulation. Hell, Scourge initially postulated whether or not Vitiate may have indeed been omniscient. Then Scourge meets Vitiate, and he noticed just how ****ed up, yet transcendent this guy is. Scourge, a Sith prodigy, knew he'd never understand the force in the same way Vitiate did. Vitiate created arguably the most dangerous/powerful holocron ever when he was 10! Vitiate was a being who "transcended" his mortal sycophants, his concepts of life and death were far more powerful and meaningful than that of an average mortal. He was the void, a darker, more mysterious carbon copy of Sidious.

Then he almost got beheaded by Meetra Surik. erm

Literally, if Meetra didn't care so much for Revan, Vitiate would be dead. The trio of a just-healed-from-his-face-melting Revan, and stomped-by-Nyriss Scourge and Meetra gave Vitiate pause. The trio had a 50/50 chance of winning, for crying out loud! I mean, did Drew realize how inconsistent this was? Hell, Scourge worked Vitiate's highest attainable position in his Empire as a double agent for 300 years, and the "brilliant, cunning, possibly omniscient" Emperor had absolutely no idea. Vader couldn't hide his thoughts from across the galaxy.

One thing I liked that Bioware did is that Vitiate ultimately outlasted and completely humiliated Revan, the greatest champion in the history of the Republic, (up till his time, and probably all the way till the likes of Luke and Anakin Skywalker). Vitiate dominated his will with a thought after the mandalorian Wars, for all intents and purposes beat him down in the Revan fight, tortured him for 300 years, and had his servants thwart him at the Foundry. He ****ed with Revan so badly that his body and spirit literally split, (as stupid as this was) for crying out loud. The best part? Revan's efforts simply made Vitiate more powerful than ever in SOR. Vitiate kind of owned Revan, no offense to Ant (ily bae smile). It's similar imo to how Sidious manipulated, usurped, and defeated Yoda, but not quite as dominant. This Revan vs Vitiate arc shows how Vitiate was meant to be as a character. Does the "better than you" type of character appeal to everyone? Absolutely not, but it's even worse when he's written to be that way and then inexplicably fails. Every. Freaking. Time.

To make this shorter, as I've explained numerous times, Ziost/KOTFE/KOTET had this same issue where Valkorion started out seeming invincible, transcendent, like everything was a part of his plan, only to be thwarted yet again. By the Outlander, a guy most people still consider sub-Revan as far as power is concerned. So instead of the 1400 year old "godlike/omniscient" entity getting overpowered by the 27-30 year old prodigy kid, he got outwilled and outsmarted by him instead! Outlander had help, of course. From the son Valkorion already oneshotted and the daughter he could pacify with a phrase. Oh wait, Outlander took control of Vaylin, by using the holocron Valkorion made...when he was
10. laughing out loud

Then, instead of leaving Valk to his shame, they shame him even more by writing that he's actually been killed multiple times, not necessarily by the Hero of Tython/Outlander. I don't recall multiple individuals being capable of murdering Sidious under any circumstances.

The evidence points to Sidious being superior because all Bioware could do just for Valkorion is accolades and flashy lights and the occasional impressive combat feat that ROTJ Sidious could replicate. Just my 2(thousand) cents.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I also just want to say that I feel no Sith/villain compares to Valkorion in terms of power and uniqueness sans Sidious. Sidious' line was about subterfuge and slowly acquiring power and control until they could rip out the floor from under the Jedi. Sidious was the culmination of this and took it to the upteenth degree, but it's more than that. He didn't want to continue the Banite Line and ultimately die for the greater good of the Sith. He was the Banite line. He was the greatest and only good of the Sith. All existence was for him to slowly feed on and absorb into his infinite ego, supplied by the bloodline of the force itself: the dynasty of the Skywalkers. Stark contrast from Bane, am I right?

Vitiate was different, but no less anomalistic. He created the most powerful and dangerous holocron in Galactic History when he was 10. Was anointed a Sith Lord by Marka Ragnos himself at age 13. Despite this, he wasn't to carry on the ancient dynasty like Sidious did with the Banites. Vitiate was an outcasted, manipulative recluse. The ancient lords such as Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, and Kun hated Vitiate, (each even giving the protagonist a boon of power on Yavin IV to combat the Emperor and his machinations). Why? Because he had no intention of carrying on the royal bloodline. Like Sidious, he was the bloodline. He was the most intelligent, knowledgeable, powerful, manipulative, and long-lived of them all. But he too had bigger aims. He wanted to literally consume all life in the galaxy, from stars to planets to trillions of lives, to in effect become God. Then, to attain true omniscience, he would experience everyone and everything, and promptly wait for the cycle to begin again. Stark contrast from Marka Ragnos and his codes of honor, an I right?

While some will argue Plagueis is superior to Valkorion because of some quote, I will forever disagree. Valkorion is a bit too Sidious-like to be sub-Plagueis, imo.

SunRazer

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