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On the back of my Darth Revan thread, I decided to make this one for contentious or obscure Sith. Who is closest to the following Sith Lords in sabers, Force, all-out:

1. Exar Kun

2. Ulic Qel-Droma

3. Darth Malak

4. Darth Sion

5. Darth Nihilus

6. Darth Marr

7. Darth Bane

8. Darth Caedus

1. Darth Krayt

2. Arcann

3. Count Dooku when amped by the SF, Maul otherwise

4. Probably somewhere around Jiin, but immortal

5. Can range from Vitiate to Ludo Kressh

6. Between peak Ventress and SoD Maul

7. Darth Vader

8. Darth Vader

1. Vader
2. Close to Dooku.
3. Maul level with SF.
4. TPM Kenobi?
5. Skillz is right.
6. Dunno.
7. Maul
8. Krayt

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
7. Darth Vader

Originally posted by SunRazer
On the back of my Darth Revan thread, I decided to make this one for contentious or obscure Sith. Who is closest to the following Sith Lords in sabers, Force, all-out:

1. Exar Kun

2. Ulic Qel-Droma

3. Darth Malak

4. Darth Sion

5. Darth Nihilus

6. Darth Marr

7. Darth Bane

8. Darth Caedus

1. Darth Krayt
2. Anakin (Mid-Late TCW)
3. TPM Maul
4. TCW Cartoon Ventress
5. Too hard
6. TCW Kenobi
7. Someone shit
8. Darth Vader

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
7. Someone shitChing gets it.

1.Revan.
2.Dooku.
3.Maul.
4.Ventress.
5.He's sub-Valk/Palp.
6.Maul.
7.Maul.
8.Vader.

Originally posted by SunRazer
On the back of my Darth Revan thread, I decided to make this one for contentious or obscure Sith. Who is closest to the following Sith Lords in sabers, Force, all-out:

1. Exar Kun

2. Ulic Qel-Droma

3. Darth Malak

4. Darth Sion

5. Darth Nihilus

6. Darth Marr

7. Darth Bane

8. Darth Caedus

Exar Kun:
-Sabers: Ulic Qel-Droma
-Force: Dromund Kaas-amped novel Vitiate; Freedon Nadd
-All-out: Reborn Krayt

Ulic Qel-Droma:
-Sabers: Exar Kun
-Force: Prime Revan
-All-out: Count Dooku; Darth Vader (?)

Darth Malak:
-No idea, tbh

Darth Sion:
-No idea, tbh

Darth Nihilus:
-Sabers: No idea, tbh (Darth Traya?)
-Force: TOR Vitiate
-All-out: TOR Vitiate

Darth Marr:
-Sabers: Agen Kolar (?)
-Force: No idea, tbh (Deceived Malgus?)
-All-out: No idea, tbh

Darth Bane:
-No idea, tbh

Darth Caedus:
-Sabers: No idea, tbh
-Force: Darth Vader; Prime Revan
-All-out: No idea, tbh (DE Luke? Darth Vader?)

Rofl at comparing Vader and Revan. ^

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Rofl at comparing Vader and Revan. ^

They are comparable, tbh. Although Revan is still better, if it makes you happy.

1. Exar Kun - Krayt

2. Ulic Qel-Droma - Dooku

3. Darth Malak - Maul

4. Darth Sion - Way below Jinn

5. Darth Nihilus - Novel Vitiate or slightly below

6. Darth Marr - There's absolutely no way to measure him

7. Darth Bane - Around Fisto in sabers, slightly below Dooku in the Force

8. Darth Caedus - Slightly above prime Vader

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Rofl at comparing Vader and Revan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
On the back of my Darth Revan thread, I decided to make this one for contentious or obscure Sith. Who is closest to the following Sith Lords in sabers, Force, all-out:

1. Exar Kun

2. Ulic Qel-Droma

3. Darth Malak

4. Darth Sion

5. Darth Nihilus

6. Darth Marr

7. Darth Bane

8. Darth Caedus

1. Revan

2. Kenobi

3. SF amp - Maul, standard - peak Ventress

4. Not sure, but Skillz might've guessed best. I'd say slightly below Jinn level.

5. Someone in the low-end of the Ancients.

6. Around TCW Kenobi level.

7. No idea.

8. Vader

This entire thread is AIDS

ur AIDS and cancer.

Krayt
Arcann
Maul, higher w/ the SF
Sha'agi, but immortal
Exar+, but completely inept
sub-Malak
sub-Dooku
Vader

Darths Malak, Marr and Bane are terribly underestimated.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Krayt
Arcann
Maul, higher w/ the SF
Sha'agi, but immortal
Exar+, but completely inept
sub-Malak
sub-Dooku
Vader

Malak higher than Maul? Seems unlikely given the disparity between him and KotOR Revan, considering that the likes of Jedi Dooku and TPM Mace are both more skilled and more powerful than later incarnations of Revan.

-

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Krayt
Arcann
Maul, higher w/ the SF
Sha'agi, but immortal
Exar+, but completely inept
sub-Malak
sub-Dooku
Vader
I agree with this almost entirely, but not sure on your placement of Sion and Nihilus.

Not that I necessarily disagree, just I don't have a ranking for them ATM.

Sion's being undersold, for one. But I suspect NewGuy was joking, so I'm not gonna press it.

Being near Jinn is actually overselling him.

NewGuy said he was Sha'a Gi level.

And, well, you know where I rank Qui-Gon.

Yeah that was 1 joke, others had him at Jinn and even Ventress level, which is f-ucking hilarious.

Which is why my earlier post was directed at NewGuy.

But seeing as most people have Qui-Gon at near-shit tier, I don't think it's a stretch for them to put Sion alongside him.

Qui-Gon should be B-Team level, imho.
Sion isn't close.

And the person that said Sion ~ Ventress was AP, so...

Sion dying to random Jedi repeatedly isn't exactly a mark of an exceptional duelist or Force user, tbh.



-KotOR Campign guide

The Jedi of the era are all excellent warriors and Sion's skills would increase constantly.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Qui-Gon should be B-Team level, imho.
Sion isn't close.

Qui Gon should be entry level B-Team.
Sion isn't close, yeah.

The notion that Saesee Tiin>/=Qui-Gon is absolute nonsense.

Not at all. He seems to be around Kit and Agen's level, which more than justifies ranking him in Qui-Gon's ballpark.

Yeh, Fisto, Tiin and Agen are all relative peers to each other and that's enough to place one ahead of Jinn, imho.

Based on what are they peers? Simply because Tiin was chosen by Mace doesn't mean he's comparable to Kit and Agen; it just means he's better than anyone else currently at the Temple.

Originally posted by Azronger

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree,"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.

-KotOR Campign guide

True. Each death fuels his rage more, so I suppose he becomes stronger with each death as well as more tactical. We're talking battle tested Jedi who had a looser opinion on the use of Dark Side powers and were known to use them to survive.

More seriously,

Sion, without regeneration, would be a little above Inquisitor level IMO. He could handle the majority of Jedi, but would be no match for a top-class master like Jinn. Who, in many ways, is a far greater Jedi than Agen, Kit, or Saesee for the record.

Nihilus is tougher; vast power is obviously necessary to ravage a planet and lift a cruiser, and he has a lot of impressive hype, but he's also an vegetable. I'd say he's on the same playing field as the ancient Sith Lords, but he's not a master of the game like them, if that makes sense.

I doubt he became more tactical if he kept dying constantly. Stronger - possibly.

Originally posted by Azronger
I doubt he became more tactical if he kept dying constantly. Stronger - possibly.

Reasonably since the weaker Jedi were taken down by the Sith Triumvirate Assassins, Sion would go for the more heavy of the Jedi hitters. I expect them to be stronger, and stronger as the toughest continue to be the last to remain. *shrug* but that's my conjecture though. Seems like (from the text) that each death also has him killing many more:



Again, *shrug* I don't have enough evidence to make a solid claim about it.

Sion claims that he's "as strong as before" when he rises up again.

However, this is all only a better way to wank the Jedi Masters of this era, given that Sion from 45 years prior to this, before he discovered his "immortality" or learned at either the Korriban or Trayus Academies, was regularly cutting down "experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat". Given that after all of those improvements I listed, he was still falling to individual Jedi (and possibly with the aid of his assassins), we can infer that the Council members are actually very skilled and powerful. Which is fitting given that they're among the "highest of Jedi Masters" and "most skilled of Force wielders".

Originally posted by SunRazer
Sion claims that he's "as strong as before" when he rises up again.

However, this is all only a better way to wank the Jedi Masters of this era, given that Sion from 45 years prior to this, before he discovered his "immortality" or learned at either the Korriban or Trayus Academies, was regularly cutting down "experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat". Given that after all of those improvements I listed, he was still falling to individual Jedi (and possibly with the aid of his assassins), we can infer that the Council members are actually very skilled and powerful. Which is fitting given that they're among the "highest of Jedi Masters" and "most skilled of Force wielders".

True. Sion is a veteran of the Kun War, and I'm sure he killed a grip during the Jedi Civil War.

Yep. We just have a nice powerscaling chain now:

Vrook/Zez/Atris > Kavar > random JCW survivors > KotOR II Sion > Exar Kun War Sion > experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat.

Which means they're noticeably above average.

Average being the upper bracket of Force users that we deal with, yeah. Overall? As I said, they're factually some of the most powerful and skilled in history.

All in all, better than the shit tier that most people put them in, lol.

Depends what you have as sh!t tier, honestly. They're all prolly Aayla Secura level, or something.

She matched Vos. That's honestly higher than most people have them.

Did she really, though?

And yeah, it is higher than most, I guess.

IIRC, she did.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Yep. We just have a nice powerscaling chain now:

Vrook/Zez/Atris > Kavar > random JCW survivors > KotOR II Sion > Exar Kun War Sion > experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat.

I think most people already had this powerscaling chain.

Why are Vrook and co. above Kavar?

Canderous claimed they thought he'd face Kavar in the Mando Wars, 'the famed Jedi guardian', implying he would've been the next best thing after Revan. At least that's how I interpreted it. He may have been talking about tactics and not individual prowess, though.

That's because Canderous only knows Kavar from fame, not personally.

The KotOR II prima guide claims that Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Masters that you've met (ie. Vrook, Atris, Zez-Kai Ell).

Strange, considering he's the one who uses the most complex lightsaber form, lol. I mean if the prima guide claims it then fine, it's just a little weird.

Originally posted by Petrus
Strange, considering he's the one who uses the most complex lightsaber form, lol. I mean if the prima guide claims it then fine, it's just a little weird.

That and he's a Jedi Guardian, those that focus primarily on blade and martial combat constantly whenever they have free time. So yes, very weird.

It's even nonsensical, actually.

Originally posted by Petrus
It's even nonsensical, actually.

Maybe, but Kavar has more for him being a primary duelist than the rest. Infact as I recall he's the only one shown using his blades in combat too cutscene wise.

Originally posted by Petrus
It's even nonsensical, actually.

Considering that contradicts the game itself, wouldn't that be considered secondary at best and overruled? I meant that this part specifically is contradicted by the game: if the Exile is a Jedi Guardian, he refers to you as being part of the same group of specialized Jedi Knights as him; and seeing as he's the one that teaches the Exile/Meetra the seventh form/Juyo, which is restricted only to the most advanced and capable duelists going by other sides like Jedi vs Sith, and he's the "famed Jedi Guardian", the implications are he's the Windu of the Jedi Order during the war.

I mean its like saying from that source Windu "isn't as noted for his dueling skills but makes up for it with his Force powers" is kind of wonky given what we know about him; same applies for Kavar.

Actually, you're right. That's enough to overrule the notion that Atris, Zez and Vrook > Kavar.

Welp Kenobi > Yoda in sabers, after all.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Welp Kenobi > Yoda in sabers, after all.

? Where's that coming from? Yoda is better.

Because using the classifications of Consulars vs Guardians to state it's nonsensical for Vrook, Atris and Zez-kai Ell to be canonically better duelists than Kavar is entirely contradicted by PT era duelists, who aren't the combative prime of the Jedi Order. Canonically, the TOTJ-KOTOR era is.

Feats for Yoda or Kenobi that match beating Fodder Sith?

Except it's not just the classification as Ravage pointed out.

Except they can all teach you Juyo depending on who is last.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except they can all teach you Juyo depending on who is last.

Hm, been awhile since I've played Kotor 2. Fair then.

1. Revan (SoR)
2. Arcann
3. Count Dooku
4. Qui-Gon plus immortal
5. No idea
6. Maul maybe?
7. Count Dooku
8. Fits nicely between Vader and SoR Revan

Originally posted by nfactor1995
1. Revan (SoR)
2. Arcann / Darth Malgus
3. Count Dooku
4. Qui-Gon plus immortal
5. No idea
6. Savage maybe?
7. Lord Draahg
8. Fits nicely between Vader and SoR Revan

Sorry; had to get that Marr/Satele lowballing off my chest.

I was using the class comparison in between the 3 Jedi Masters, of course Yoda is better because he has feats/accolades to back that up, the other 3 don't. Plus again, I just said I was fine with it as I haven't played Kotor 2 in some time, I was misremembering.

Yes, but I do find it strange that the only guy of the group who uses Jar Kai is the less skilled with a lightsaber, and the fact that he is a guardian just adds up. Even if canonically speaking the others are better, you have to at least agree that it's weird.

Well, it's never really confirmed that the other two aren't Jedi Guardians, and Zez uses a double-bladed lightsaber (so did Vrook in the beta version of the game), so that requires a mastery of a variant of the forms also.