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Monitors
Imps
Celestials
Beyonders

Pt 2

Kryptonians
Martians (Martian Manhunters Race)
Asgardians ( no odin no thor no loki no hela)
Skrulls

This could have been so dark...

Originally posted by -Pr-
This could have been so dark...
http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/4488270+_d4640c3fa8d72c3e17a5a007b48fe068.jpg

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Monitors
Imps
Celestials
Beyonders

Pt 2

Kryptonians
Martians (Martian Manhunters Race)
Asgardians ( no odin no thor no loki no hela)
Skrulls Imps
Beyonders
Monitors
Celestials


Kryptonians
Asgardians
Martians
Skrulls

I feel like the AVG. Asgardian isn't on par with the avg. Martian.

Originally posted by Galan007
Imps
Beyonders
Monitors
Celestials


Kryptonians
Asgardians
Martians
Skrulls

I'd actually rank the Monitors over the Beyonders. Especially the Hickman's Beyonders.

Originally posted by zopzop
http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/4488270+_d4640c3fa8d72c3e17a5a007b48fe068.jpg

Ha.

Originally posted by Galan007
Imps
Beyonders
Monitors
Celestials


Kryptonians
Asgardians
Martians
Skrulls

This, only I'd switch Martians and Asgardians.

Czarnians too.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Czarnians too.

Theres only one czarnian so sort of removes the concept of race.
Added to which Lobo is the only one weve seen do anything

I thought the Martians were more powerful than the Kryptonians as well.

Martians should be more powerful. They have a shitload of abilities

^^^And they have them as a matter of course, not just when exposed to off planet conditions.
All these races are inherently more powerful than Kryptonians, who arent 'super' on their own world:

Martians
Skrulls
Asgardians
Kryptonians

Originally posted by carver9
I thought the Martians were more powerful than the Kryptonians as well.

Possibly looking at Hyperclan and a lot of the Morrison stuff.

Typically no 2 kryptonian is on par, seems a bit more hectic with Martians. Though I'd argue it's all on the writer.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Possibly looking at Hyperclan and a lot of the Morrison stuff.

Typically no 2 kryptonian is on par, seems a bit more hectic with Martians. Though I'd argue it's all on the writer.

I think people are arguing the numbers rather than power displayed. Looking at what the Martians did, I feel comfortable saying they are more powerful.

Martians aren't more powerful than kryptonians, or even close.

Each time somebody quotes carver the forum loses iq points.

More powers =/= more powerful.

Originally posted by -Pr-
More powers =/= more powerful.

Otherwise, Iron Man is more powerful than Hulk.

Originally posted by beatboks
Theres only one czarnian so sort of removes the concept of race.
Added to which Lobo is the only one weve seen do anything

Same could be said of the imps (I know LKZ etc, but they seem to be massively separate from the other imps).

As for the Martians, are we including the Burning Martians too?
Not to mention, the Beyonders. Only THE Beyonder really did anything, compared to the three who killed the LT (and yet, fell by the dozens against Hype and Thor).

Imps
Beyonders
Monitors
Celestials

Kryptonians (Yellow sun)
Martians
Asgardians
Skrulls

Ignoring the one offs from a race like Mxy or Classic Beyonder. Celestials are difficult to rank. I like the classic lore of these massive Space Gods that walk around the level of Galactus (when fed). I thank thats phucking awesome, as they along other Space or Poremial Gods serve to maintain cosmic consonance within their respective universe.

But Marvel wants to push the idea that they ARE architects the Multiverse and that some DO predate the universe. Which puts established lore in conflict with the new status quo of the High Orders updated Mythos to follow.

wankers. 313wank

Originally posted by -Pr-
More powers =/= more powerful.


There's a problem here, though.

1. Nearly all the powers that Kryptonians have are powers that Martians ALSO have and in comparable magnitude. Flight, speed, super strength, heat vision, intangibility, healing. In which of these areas do Krptonians demonstrate any true superiority?

2. As pointed out earlier, Kryptonians only have their power in certain environments. Martians have power in nearly all of them.

3.. The powers that Martians have which Kryptonians do NOT are powers that trump Kryptonians in battle. Namely telepathy and mind control.

See Fernus versus Superman (and most of the rest of the JLA) in "JLA: Trial by Fire", and J'onnz versus Ultraman in "Earth-2" by Grant Morrison.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's a problem here, though.

1. Nearly all the powers that Kryptonians have are powers that Martians ALSO have and in comparable magnitude. Flight, speed, super strength, heat vision, intangibility, healing. In which of these areas do Krptonians demonstrate any true superiority?

2. As pointed out earlier, Kryptonians only have their power in certain environments. Martians have power in nearly all of them.

3.. The powers that Martians have which Kryptonians do NOT are powers that trump Kryptonians in battle. Namely telepathy and mind control.

See Fernus versus Superman (and most of the rest of the JLA) in "JLA: Trial by Fire", and J'onnz versus Ultraman in "Earth-2" by Grant Morrison.

It really depends on one single factor, imo: Do you include Superman in this? If you do, then the "comparable magnitude" argument goes flying out the window and in to orbit.

If we're going by "common v common" then the argument is a closer one.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1. Nearly all the powers that Kryptonians have are powers that Martians ALSO have and in comparable magnitude. Flight, speed, super strength, heat vision, intangibility, healing. In which of these areas do Krptonians demonstrate any true superiority? In all of them.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
2. As pointed out earlier, Kryptonians only have their power in certain environments. Martians have power in nearly all of them. Yes, Martians can probably beat kryptonians under a red sun.

That has nothing to do with their power under a yellow sun.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
3.. The powers that Martians have which Kryptonians do NOT are powers that trump Kryptonians in battle. Namely telepathy and mind control.

None of which puts them above kryptonians, based on showings.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
See Fernus versus Superman (and most of the rest of the JLA) in "JLA: Trial by Fire", and J'onnz versus Ultraman in "Earth-2" by Grant Morrison.

Fernus is a different being entirely from J'onn. Ultraman was weakened.

J'onn has gotten the shit beaten out of him by Superboy:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111143779/4617371-p27_34.jpg

And he has gotten the shit beaten out of him by not-full power Zod:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/23309/4096227-0434100135-34975.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/23309/4096228-1155713466-34975.jpg

And has been treated like a weakling by Supergirl:

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc141/Supergirl_Respect/martianout.jpg

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Monitors
Imps
Celestials
Beyonders

Pt 2

Kryptonians
Martians (Martian Manhunters Race)
Asgardians ( no odin no thor no loki no hela)
Skrulls

Superman (the source of everything)
Mxy/Overmonitor
Mandrakk
The Beyonder/Anti-Monitor
Beyonders/Imps
Celestials

Kryptonians
Martians
Asgardians
Skrulls

J'onn makes a fantastic punching bag.

superboy can defeat MM if the conditions are right and vice versa.

I wouldn't take a British citizen that's been living in the US for 30 years as test control for all citizens of the UK. Same for kryptonians. yes their planet is gone but that doesn't change what makes them kryptonian.

to me the OP is about the races at base levels without amps. so I would put martians over kryptonians as a race.

Kryps, at base, have the science and the tech to create yellow suns.

There, problem solved.

Supes is the Cap A of the Kryps, true, but then, MM is the Cap of the Martians. No other Martian save Fernus has the number of feats he has.

And yet, he comes up short every time in direct confrontation.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Kryps, at base, have the science and the tech to create yellow suns.

There, problem solved.

Supes is the Cap A of the Kryps, true, but then, MM is the Cap of the Martians. No other Martian save Fernus has the number of feats he has.

And yet, he comes up short every time in direct confrontation.


1. By reasoning such as yours, Kryptonians number in the billions in the present DCU.

2. No other Martian save Fernus has the number of feats J'onnz has because practically no other Martian save J'onnz is still alive. There's not a terribly big pool to choose from.



There's far more that deserves to be elaborated on, but TurboImageHost hasn't been working for me this week and, for some reason, nearly alone of all posters, I find Philo can't be directly quoted, the way I did with you or Pr. Be nice to know how he does that. Be nice to know, for that matter, what Image Host Provider he uses, and quoting him would have revealed that, but again, he can't be directly quoted ...

Originally posted by Galan007


J'onn makes a fantastic punching bag. He's been used as a punching bag for anything even related to kryptonians for a while now. I could make a thread just based on those alone.

To say that even J'onn is on kryptonians level is laughable.

Let's continue.

Doomsday:
https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139138/2927797-1167006_doomsdayrex158sz_super.jpg

Another kryptonian against J'onn:
https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125391/2940061- z1562048_action_comics_821__2005___team_dcp__pg20_
super.jpg
https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/125391/2940062- z1562049_action_comics_821__2005___team_dcp__pg21_
super.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's a problem here, though.

1. Nearly all the powers that Kryptonians have are powers that Martians ALSO have and in comparable magnitude. Flight, speed, super strength, heat vision, intangibility, healing. In which of these areas do Krptonians demonstrate any true superiority?

2. As pointed out earlier, Kryptonians only have their power in certain environments. Martians have power in nearly all of them.

3.. The powers that Martians have which Kryptonians do NOT are powers that trump Kryptonians in battle. Namely telepathy and mind control.

See Fernus versus Superman (and most of the rest of the JLA) in "JLA: Trial by Fire", and J'onnz versus Ultraman in "Earth-2" by Grant Morrison.

Prove the common powers of comparable in magnitude. Show me something that's comparable to the Kryptonians(a relatively small number, most of which were random No-Names) killing Doomsday. J'onn couldn't break John Stewart's construct in COSMIC ODYSSEY, but Gor, who's not all that high, casually busted both John's and Hal's auto shields, which are a lot stronger than the construct J'onn could not break(considering the construct didn't survive destruction of the planet, but John's auto-protect saved him and J'onn from the supernova after). These are two examples and not even the impressive Kryptonians. As has been shown, Kara, who I'd put at best 5th out of Kryptonians, was hilariously stronger than J'onn.

Kryptonians actually don't only get powers under yellow stars, but hey, whatever helps you feel to win.

Which has only meant so much. Kryptonians naturally have telepathic resistance. Superman definitely has the best feats, but then if you argue his resistance feats don't apply to the rest of the race, which would be true, I hope you're not assuming automatically that all Martians are J'onn level telepaths and actually have the scans to back this being the ace.

It says so much that you have to fall back on out of context examples to argue Martians>Kryptonians. Why don't you bring-up Triumph's fights against Supes and J'onn while omitting context while you're at it?

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
1. By reasoning such as yours, Kryptonians number in the billions in the present DCU.

2. No other Martian save Fernus has the number of feats J'onnz has because practically no other Martian save J'onnz is still alive. There's not a terribly big pool to choose from.



There's far more that deserves to be elaborated on, but TurboImageHost hasn't been working for me this week and, for some reason, nearly alone of all posters, I find Philo can't be directly quoted, the way I did with you or Pr. Be nice to know how he does that. Be nice to know, for that matter, what Image Host Provider he uses, and quoting him would have revealed that, but again, he can't be directly quoted ...

Reasoning such as mine?

I merely said that the top of the Kryp food chain, as it were, was Superman. He's peak Kryp.

Top of the Martian food chain is J'onn.

As Cap is to us, so are they to their races.

We can't say all Kryps have the feats that Supes has, nor can we say that all Martians have J'onn's feats.

And yet, the top of the Martian food chain does not stack up to the top of the Kryp food chain - or even the upper tiers.

How about this:
Put a bunch of Kryptonians, Martians, Skrulls and Asgardians on a red sun planet, see who dies first.

Kryptonians are not inherently super powered, they come in last here.

We use characters at their best, though. Obviously Kryptonians have powers or this wouldn't be fun.

This isnt characters, its races. Says so right in the thread title.

Last time we saw the Kryptonians, they all were under a yellow sun. All had powers. So, we use that.

And all Martians were dead.

I'm going on average, and on average, Kryptonians are last on the list.

Now you're just being silly. We're using the characters at their best, not dead. lol

Riv's completely on point. The Kryptonians come in last, for a variety of reason. .

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Riv's completely on point. The Kryptonians come in last, for a variety of reason. .

His mental gymnastics are impressive, but that's it. Kryptonians>>Martians.

Of course Martian Mind would say that.

Put them all in a neutral environment. One that doesn't massively amp a single species. Where do they sit?

His point is valid, regardless of how hard the Super-fans wish otherwise.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Put them all in a neutral environment. One that doesn't massively amp a single species. Where do they sit?

His point is valid, regardless of how hard the Super-fans wish otherwise.

Spoken like a true Martian Manhunter straw grasper. I'm sure this makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that the best Martian got treated with less respect than a prison shower rape victim during the attack by the at best #5 Kryptonian, who was a 16 year old petite girl.

I'm actually more a Martian fan than a Kryptonian/Superman one. New Gods are my favorite, though. But playing at their best, Kryptonians take this.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Spoken like a true Martian Manhunter straw grasper. I'm sure this makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that the best Martian got treated with less respect than a prison shower rape victim during the attack by the at best #5 Kryptonian, who was a 16 year old petite girl.

That anger is delicious. Someone busts the Krytonian circle-jerk, and the tears begin to flow

The Kryptonians lose, sunshine. By all means though, keep trying. It's worth a laugh, at least. .

Where do you rank the average Martian? And why?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
That anger is delicious. Someone busts the Krytonian circle-jerk, and the tears begin to flow

The Kryptonians lose, sunshine. By all means though, keep trying. It's worth a laugh, at least. .

You're also a great mental gymnast. It speaks volumes that you have to go to those lengths to convince yourself.

What gymnastics? It's sound logic. Without a yellow sun, they're a non-factor. The other races are internally powered, and thus superior in a neutral environment.

Do you dispute this?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
What gymnastics? It's sound logic. Without a yellow sun, they're a non-factor. The other races are internally powered, and thus superior in a neutral environment.

Do you dispute this?

It's mental gymnastics because you know J'onn can't cut it under normal circumstances. Drop Superman and J'onn in a sunless environment, Superman beats him before J'onn can become a threat. Superman artificially aged and weakened until he couldn't even fly still outperformed J'onn against Preus.

But keep telling yourself whatever you have to so you can feel better.

Is this a one-on-one confrontation? If so, that's entire irrelevant.

Put a group of random Kryptonians against any random group of these races in a sunless environment. Who wins?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Is this a one-on-one confrontation? If so, that's entire irrelevant.

Put a group of random Kryptonians against any random group of these races in a sunless environment. Who wins?

I understand. You don't have anything to legitimately argue your case. You have to make them powerless. But you drop them in, Kryptonians still have power reserves. Gor, barely above a random No-Name, has embarrassingly out-performed the top Martian. Almost bottom of the barrel Kryptonian>top Martian, yeah, they still win. Are you going to make it we wait until their powers deplete before the fight starts too? It must kill you that J'onn is still below meh Kryptonians.

It's canonically established that Superman only lasts under a red sun due to the reserves he's built over the years. Other Kryptonians lose their powers instantly. Also, why would the Kryptonians be empowered to begin with? Krypton doesn't have a yellow sun. They'd appear in their base, powerless state.

Do you have any thing of worth to add, or will it just be more feeble bait attempts? I'll judge based off your reply, but atm it's looking like a solid loss for the Kryptonian side.

So, MM, you think, honestly, hand on your heart, that OP wanted to put unamped Kryps (who are basically baseline humans) up against literal gods, the 1001 power pack, and...well, ok, the Skrulls? And then ask who was more powerful?

That's like going into every thread that just says 'Hal Jordan', and claiming that the ring amps him. Drop the ring, and let's go!

*looks at OP* Ok, maybe you have a point.

Eh, it's still a valid point. They're asking about power, and Kryptonian power is dependant on a sun. It's a relevant point to the question, one that would be considered valid if not for Krypton's relation to the S-shield.

Doesn't matter where they get their power, the OP wants all races operating at their best.

So it's burning Martians?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So, MM, you think, honestly, hand on your heart, that OP wanted to put unamped Kryps (who are basically baseline humans) up against literal gods, the 1001 power pack, and...well, ok, the Skrulls? And then ask who was more powerful?
I'm personally going by what the OP says. And doesnt say.
Zack tries to debate specific characters:

Originally posted by Zack M
We use characters at their best, though. Obviously Kryptonians have powers or this wouldn't be fun.
I point out the OP says nothing about specific characters. It says order the races.
He counters with:
Originally posted by Zack M
Last time we saw the Kryptonians, they all were under a yellow sun. All had powers. So, we use that.
Ignoring the fact that Kryptonians/Martians are both extinct races, and just cherry picking, saying 'we use that' like he can re-write the OP, instead of going by the average of what the races actually are.

Its like someone coming in and saying Asgardians rate higher if theyre all wearing armor carrying weapons, because last time we saw Asgardians en masse they were geared up for war.
AFTER trying to debate individual Asgardian characters.
We all know how THAT would play out here.

Now, if Teth comes in and says 'i meant powered Kryptonians' then thats fine, i'd amend my list and put them second, under Martians, because like bluewaverider posted:
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
There's a problem here, though.

1. Nearly all the powers that Kryptonians have are powers that Martians ALSO have and in comparable magnitude. Flight, speed, super strength, heat vision, intangibility, healing. In which of these areas do Krptonians demonstrate any true superiority?

2. As pointed out earlier, Kryptonians only have their power in certain environments. Martians have power in nearly all of them.

3.. The powers that Martians have which Kryptonians do NOT are powers that trump Kryptonians in battle. Namely telepathy and mind control.
...

Originally posted by Zack M
Doesn't matter where they get their power, the OP wants all races operating at their best.
Again, speaking for the OP, adfing things to suit your viewpoint.
Me, i'm not presuming to tell anyone what Teth was thinking, only going by what he posted.

Ok, it really doesn't matter. Normally it should be under a neutra szenario, so no red sun I would say as the average suns seen in comics are yellow.

The only way the Kryptonians are below the others is if you put them under a red sun and forbid them to use their tech.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Ok, it really doesn't matter. Normally it should be under a neutra szenario, so no red sun I would say as the average suns seen in comics are yellow.

The only way the Kryptonians are below the others is if you put them under a red sun and forbid them to use their tech.
If its a truly neutral environment, then the Kryptonians wouldnt be amped.
Because thats what a Kryptonian under a yellow sun is. Amped.

Originally posted by riv6672
If its a truly neutral environment, then the Kryptonians wouldnt be amped. Because thats what a Kryptonian under a yellow sun is. Amped.

Or a Kryptonian under a red sun is depowered. You can see it both ways. In a yellow sun they would be amped or very near it imo. Inside a red sun, they would be dead.

Originally posted by Zack M
Doesn't matter where they get their power, the OP wants all races operating at their best.

If that was true why did he ban Odin, Thor and Hela?

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Or a Kryptonian under a red sun is depowered. You can see it both ways. In a yellow sun they would be amped or very near it imo. Inside a red sun, they would be dead.
No, YOU can see it both ways.
Kryptonians under a red sun are Kryptonians.

Theyre the only race on the OPs 4 race list that are dependant on an outside power source to 'win' this and be listed at (or near) the top.
The three other races straight up have super powers, period.

Originally posted by riv6672
No, YOU can see it both ways.
Kryptonians under a red sun are Kryptonians.

Kryptonians under a yellow sun are still Kryptonians, Kryptonians under no sun are still Kryptoninans. You are childish now.

And you're resorting to name calling and deliberately misunderstanding my point(s) the moment the conversation doesn't go your way.
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by riv6672
And you're resorting to name calling and deliberately misunderstanding my point(s) the moment the conversation doesn't go your way.
Concession accepted.

Black pot. No I made a point which is valid, if you can't understand it, well *shrug. You are free to see it the other way around but the Kryptonians stay Kryptonians.

^^^Deflection. Again, concession accepted.

Put me down for another acceptance to your inevitable conceding reply, as i'm getting ready to log off for the morning, and wanna hit the OTF before i head out. Always a pleasure having an easy posting exchange with you.

If Teth says he wants amped Kryptonians and all the other races on average while i'm gone, then my list changes to Martians, Kryptonians, Skrulls, Asgardians.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Kryps, at base, have the science and the tech to create yellow suns.

There, problem solved.

Supes is the Cap A of the Kryps, true, but then, MM is the Cap of the Martians. No other Martian save Fernus has the number of feats he has.

And yet, he comes up short every time in direct confrontation.


I disagree with just about everything you wrote in this post.

In fact, there's so much wrong here, that, if time and TurboImageHost.com permit (please note one or both IS liable to cut out on me before I get as far as I like) I'll revisit this message several times till I hit a satisfactory number of points.

For starters, assuming you mean J'onnz seems to be so much physically superior to other Martians that he seems to be superhuman in comparison, let's see what happens when a random Martian or two actually takes on a Kryptonian, even if that Kryptonian is experienced in fighting superhumans, and is expecting trouble, and has his eyes ON random Martian, over 100 miles away, AND the support of Batman in his cool flying jet:

https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431586_image.jpg https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431587_image.jpg https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431588_image.jpg https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431589_image.jpg https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431590_image.jpg https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431591_image.jpg


Source: JLA #2
Writer: Grant Morrison
Circa: 1997

(Superman versus Primaid and Protex / Justice League versus Hyperclan)

By using telepathy to first weaken him with Kryptonite illusions, as they couldn't match him without it? Ok.

Imps
Beyonders
Celestials
MonitorsMartians
Kryptonians
Asgardians
Skrulls

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Reasoning such as mine?

I merely said that the top of the Kryp food chain, as it were, was Superman. He's peak Kryp.

Top of the Martian food chain is J'onn.

As Cap is to us, so are they to their races.

We can't say all Kryps have the feats that Supes has, nor can we say that all Martians have J'onn's feats.

And yet, the top of the Martian food chain does not stack up to the top of the Kryp food chain - or even the upper tiers.


TurboImage seems to have wet the bed again.
Sucks because that's the only Image Host Provider I know of that lets you upload multiple images at once, readable by phone as if you were using a laptop, readable by the unregistered general public, which doesn't require you to download any application.

I'm trying tinypic.com here; my first attempt at posting the visual spreads instead of the plain blue hyperlinks. Doesn't allow multiple simultaneous image uploading, and I'm using it at "default" so I have no idea what this will look like:


http://i63.tinypic.com/30hsgaa.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/2jdquyw.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/5yz0as.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By using telepathy to first weaken him with Kryptonite illusions, as they couldn't match him without it? Ok.
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/VsProtex1.jpg.html
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/VsProtex2.jpg.html
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/VsProtex3.jpg.html
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/VsProtex4.jpg.html

Superman is even nice enough to say he won't use his heat vision.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Your position here is that J'onn is inferior to White Martians?

I'll gladly stomp you on that point.

---

I'll even propose a battlezone:

kryptonians vs martians - who are superior on average.

the loser has to leave the forum for 6 months

up for it?

Mxy
PR Beyonder/Top Monitors
Imps (average)
Beyonders (average)
Celestials
Monitors

Burning Martians
Kryptonians
Martians
Asgardians
Skrull

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By using telepathy to first weaken him with Kryptonite illusions, as they couldn't match him without it? Ok.



I think you missed the part where Primaid, WITHOUT any observable use of telepathy or illusion, cratered Superman, by simply plowing into him fists-first, long enough for her partner to dogfight Batman and waste his plane.



That's okay.

I probably need the practice in using the TinyPic IHP anyway.


Here, take a look again at Primaid stunning Superman despite him looking right at her:


http://i65.tinypic.com/nnpu2t.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/14v09qo.jpg

Sadly, TinyPic.com visual splashes do NOT have the universal accessibility of TurboImageHost splashes. So, let me supply Primaid versus J'onn as direct hyperlinks:


http://i63.tinypic.com/30hsgaa.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/2jdquyw.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/5yz0as.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/qswnfb.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/33f7uau.jpg


Source: Amazing Spider-Man #6
Writer: Stan Lee
Penciller: Steve Ditko
Circa: 1963


http://i67.tinypic.com/64dqc2.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/34ydy82.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yxj7t0.jpg

Source: Amazing Spider-Man #45
Writer: Stan Lee
Penciller: John Romita, Sr.
Circa: 1967
--------------------------------------------------------

Pain in the neck not being able to directly quote you, Phil.

Superman beats Protex by exposing him to high temperatures.


No one in this thread has established a universal definition of powerful; I understand you trying to use this.

I would refer people to Superman/Batman #13, where, if memory serves, Superman is able to take a Darkseid who has been weakened by Wonder Woman reflecting his own Omega Beams back at him, and then is further stressed by Superman fighting him near the sun. How many would argue Superman is more powerful than Darkseid sans these aids?

I suppose we'll get to find out ...


You'd be hard pressed to convince the average Spider-Man reader, though.

There's an easy memorable proof that greater tolerance for temperature extremes does not, by itself, necessarily translate into "more powerful".


Are you familiar with The Lizard?

Fairly well-established who is more powerful between he and Spider-Man, even from their first encounter:


http://i66.tinypic.com/qswnfb.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/33f7uau.jpg


Is Spider-Man "more powerful" than the Lizard because the following happens in their rematch?


http://i67.tinypic.com/64dqc2.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/34ydy82.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yxj7t0.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I disagree with just about everything you wrote in this post.

In fact, there's so much wrong here, that, if time and TurboImageHost.com permit (please note one or both IS liable to cut out on me before I get as far as I like) I'll revisit this message several times till I hit a satisfactory number of points.

For starters, assuming you mean J'onnz seems to be so much physically superior to other Martians that he seems to be superhuman in comparison, let's see what happens when a random Martian or two actually takes on a Kryptonian, even if that Kryptonian is experienced in fighting superhumans, and is expecting trouble, and has his eyes ON random Martian, over 100 miles away, AND the support of Batman in his cool flying jet:

Source: JLA #2
Writer: Grant Morrison
Circa: 1997

(Superman versus Primaid and Protex / Justice League versus Hyperclan)

And when Superman hit her (ONCE), he took he out (note too, her attempt at using her various powers that Kryps don't have):
https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431589_image.jpg

And shall I post how J'onn, after being tortured and held captive, managed to take several White Martians (who were amped, IIRC) down?

Or, earlier, how he takes some members of the same Hyperclan down, after they mock him for being a pacifist greenie? He took Armek out 1 on 1 in the desert, for example.

But you should take Phildo's challenge up.

As for Superboy beating J'onn ...


I'm not at all convinced Nu52 Superboy is representative of Nu52 Kryptonians.
His power is pretty heavily based on TK.

He's more like Jean Grey than Superman or your generic Kryptonian.





Then again, it might not be of that much benefit to use Superboy even IF you want to argue he should be counted.

The following is from JLA #58, if memory serves:

http://i66.tinypic.com/orniae.jpg




http://i66.tinypic.com/orniae.jpg

Pre-52 Superboy's powers were also TK.

However, nu52 =/=Pre 52.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pre-52 Superboy's powers were also TK.

However, nu52 =/=Pre 52.

Quite true; which is why it was a little surprising to see Phil mix showings like that. He also threw in what Nu52 Zod did to J'onn ...
I'm wondering if he knows how badly Nu52 Superman got treated. I don't recall J'onn being left with a broken arm, for instance ...

1). @bluewatermoron, learn how to formulate an argument, instead of spamming the thread with images from Spiderman, which have nothing to do with the discussion, no matter how desperate you want it to be.
2). don't ignore my challenge. say yes, or no. are you a coward?
3). learn how to quote without using the button.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pain in the neck not being able to directly quote you, Phil.

Superman beats Protex by exposing him to high temperatures.

- Superman has given Protex the proposition of a fair fight, and he didn't use his heat vision. Even under those circumstances, Protex lost.

- Superman has beaten White Martians by straight out overpowering them:
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/supesvswhitemartian1.jpg.html
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/supesvswhitemartian2.jpg.html
http://s738.photobucket.com/user/PhilosophiaKMC/media/supesvswhitemartian3.jpg.html

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No one in this thread has established a universal definition of powerful; I understand you trying to use this.

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/139138/2927797-1167006_doomsdayrex158sz_super.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
As for Superboy beating J'onn ...


I'm not at all convinced Nu52 Superboy is representative of Nu52 Kryptonians.
His power is pretty heavily based on TK.

He's more like Jean Grey than Superman or your generic Kryptonian.





Then again, it might not be of that much benefit to use Superboy even IF you want to argue he should be counted.

The following is from JLA #58, if memory serves:

http://i66.tinypic.com/orniae.jpg




http://i66.tinypic.com/orniae.jpg

1). You moron, the images you used are not of the same Superboy. Those are different characters, from different continuities. He also got sucker shot there, which is not an indication of how a fight would go.

2). Yes, Superboy isn't even a full kryptonian - yet he beats the shit out of Martian Manhunter physically. The same Superboy was getting punched around by Supergirl.

- There's a theme of not-fully-powered kryptonians beating the shit out of J'on, as it was with Zod:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/23309/4096227-0434100135-34975.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/23309/4096228-1155713466-34975.jpg

But feel free to ignore this, like a coward.

The same way you did the challenge.

Will you take the challenge, or coward your way out of this? You get to pick the ban period - I'm ok with 6 months, a year, or even permaban.

^^^Wow, someone's been drinking way too much coffee.

I put it in bigger size, in case he's selectively blind.

If the way to get the forum rid of morons is to have them self-exile after losing debates, that will be great.

Well, here's hoping you lise then.

ZING!

Supermans Race has NO powers as a Race. What is so hard to see that they come in dead last? All the other races were born with powers, that cannot be said about Supermans Race. Dead last, even the Human race would be above them because of mutants. WOW! Even a child would understand this.

...then why did OP include them?

To see how many superman fans would look silly wanking them and refusing to put anything related to superman on the bottom of any challenge.

Originally posted by JBL
Supermans Race has NO powers as a Race. What is so hard to see that they come in dead last? All the other races were born with powers, that cannot be said about Supermans Race. Dead last, even the Human race would be above them because of mutants. WOW! Even a child would understand this.
Bingo.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
...then why did OP include them?
simple ignorance on Teth's part might explain it.

But unlike Teth, the posters here are continuing to put them first once its been explained why they arent really even in the running. Thats stupidity.

The cells being able to absorb solar radiation is a power

What good did in do them when their planet exploded? Why didnt they fly away under their own power? As a Race that cell thing is useless.

Originally posted by JBL
What good did in do them when their planet exploded? Why didnt they fly away under their own power? As a Race that cell thing is useless.



Pretty much.

If you ask who is more powerful, the race that can shapeshift, turn intangible, invisible, have Martian vision etc etc etc...

Vs the race which are basically souped up photosynthesisers, without giving them the source of their power (so base Martian vs base Kryp)...

That's pretty stupid.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Riv's completely on point. The Kryptonians come in last, for a variety of reason. .
Jonn will manage to job even then.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Pretty much.

If you ask who is more powerful, the race that can shapeshift, turn intangible, invisible, have Martian vision etc etc etc...

Vs the race which are basically souped up photosynthesisers, without giving them the source of their power (so base Martian vs base Kryp)...

That's pretty stupid.
Agreed. Kryptonians are stupid.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
The cells being able to absorb solar radiation is a power

Easy to understand. They are depowered under a red sun, empowered by a yellow, buffed by close proximity to a yellow sun and hugely amped by sundipping.

Fun fact. The Kryptonians were already superhuman in strength and the peak of evolution the red sun depower twist was added later into their origin.

Was superman or any other of his race born with heat vision, freeze breath, flight and super strength????

No but if they were under a normal sun they would have, anyway this is krypton under a sun that gives them powers or else this is basically humans with high end tech

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
No but if they were under a normal sun they would have, anyway this is krypton under a sun that gives them powers or else this is basically humans with high end tech

Which is what I was trying to tell a certain poster.

Thanks for clarifying. Shouldn't be hard to comprehend.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
No but if they were under a normal sun they would have, anyway this is krypton under a sun that gives them powers or else this is basically humans with high end tech

Why did you remove Odin, Thor, Loki and Hela?

There are not Average Asgardians, or else they would just solo

Lol.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
There are not Average Asgardians, or else they would just solo

So you took them out to prevent the Asgardians from winning?

Its the average members from each race

THE premier Skyfather? Probably. I mean, he's got an entire force named after him lol.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
THE premier Skyfather? Probably. I mean, he's got an entire force named after him lol. Then i would have to include Scathan, Mandrakk, Superboy Prime, Superman Prime with Guardian Amp, Etc

Edit Odin Thor & Hela is allowed

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Its the average members from each race

So no Superman, Supergirl or MM etc?

Lol. Odin is back in Silent!

Didn't see his later post until after I'd hit submit.

Originally posted by Silent Master
So no Superman, Supergirl or MM etc? Originally

I guess we'd have to use pre-52 for the DC guys? Haven't really seen them post- 52, tbh.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Then i would have to include Scathan, Mandrakk, Superboy Prime, Superman Prime with Guardian Amp, Etc

Edit Odin Thor & Hela is allowed

Yup. Don't forget Nightwing and Flamebird to the Kryptonian side. They were solid trans level.

Originally posted by JBL
Was superman or any other of his race born with heat vision, freeze breath, flight and super strength????

Yes. If they were born under a yellow sun.

Current Superman's son is half Kryptonian and was born with powers.

Kryptonians are my favorite race in comics and Movies

I'm sorry for you.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
It's canonically established that Superman only lasts under a red sun due to the reserves he's built over the years. Other Kryptonians lose their powers instantly. Also, why would the Kryptonians be empowered to begin with? Krypton doesn't have a yellow sun. They'd appear in their base, powerless state.

Do you have any thing of worth to add, or will it just be more feeble bait attempts? I'll judge based off your reply, but atm it's looking like a solid loss for the Kryptonian side.

Oh "anything of worth to add." It's obvious to anybody with a modicum of competence that you're simply arguing it because it's all you have. If you could actually argue Martians>Kryptonians, you wouldn't have to resort to this.

And for all your arguing, seems that your argument is going against what the OP intended.

Originally posted by JBL
Supermans Race has NO powers as a Race. What is so hard to see that they come in dead last? All the other races were born with powers, that cannot be said about Supermans Race. Dead last, even the Human race would be above them because of mutants. WOW! Even a child would understand this.

Your tears are delicious.

Originally posted by Cogito
Yes. If they were born under a yellow sun.

Current Superman's son is half Kryptonian and was born with powers. Was Superman born with super powers? There is no yellow sun near his home planet. Sun energy is a condition. The other races need no condition, they just need to be born on their home planet or whatever. Superman and 99% of his people were born basically nobodies on krypton.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Your tears are delicious. Superman wins. Now you can go to sleep without crying all night.

Originally posted by JBL
Was Superman born with super powers? There is no yellow sun near his home planet. Sun energy is a condition. The other races need no condition, they just need to be born on their home planet or whatever. Superman and 99% of his people were born basically nobodies on krypton.

So still more relevant than you.

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
No but if they were under a normal sun they would have, anyway this is krypton under a sun that gives them powers or else this is basically humans with high end tech

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Its the average members from each race

Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Kryptonians are my favorite race in comics and Movies

Thanks for finally clearing that up, Teth.
So lets see, its amped Kryptonians, who are your favorite race in comics, and the other 3 races, on average.
My amended list is then:

MARTIANS
KRYPTONIANS
SKRULLS
ASGARDIANS

Kryptonians...no longer dead last, still not number one.

Call him by his real name.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Call him by his real name.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GCi_PIz5ekU

By Skrulls - do they get their powers? So the ones who are essentially MArvel heroes all jumbled up into one?

Fair's fair, after all!

Yes

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And when Superman hit her (ONCE), he took her out (note too, her attempt at using her various powers that Kryps don't have):
https://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/34431589_image.jpg

And shall I post how J'onn, after being tortured and held captive, managed to take several White Martians (who were amped, IIRC) down?

Or, earlier, how he takes some members of the same Hyperclan down, after they mock him for being a pacifist greenie? He took Armek out 1 on 1 in the desert, for example.

But you should take Phildo's challenge up.



1. There's a world of difference between saying J'onn is not as far physically above other Martians as Captain America is above ordinary humans like ourselves, and saying J'onn is actually inferior to other Martians.

2. The invisibility which Primaid uses against Clark is not the telepathy and mind control I specifically mentioned as the trumping powers Martians have over Kryptonians. Interestingly, you yourself make a powerful case for Martian superiority over Kryptonians when you argued for Fernus over Superboy Prime in the following thread posted only a few months ago:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=630846&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Fernus in all three. He was a psychic entity made flesh, IIRC.

IOW, unless SBP develops some mind powers, Round 1 has him crying in fear, and 2 and 3 with Fernus eventually wearing him down.



Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wasn't even the first time. The second time they met, even with prep, the entire league was owned badly. The first time they met, he was tanking a bloodlusted WW's attacks.

The third time they met, Fernus even KOed Superman (note the second panel):
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/VsJla19.jpg.

As for abhi's earlier assertion that Superman was trying to talk him down, I can just as easily claim Superman was bloodlusted:

http://i.imgur.com/HEZwSKg.jpg

But wait, Abhi will claim that later on, Superman was telling him to stand down, and giving him one last chance!

But even LATER on, Superman himself says to leave NOTHING standing, and they all try to take Fernus apart, whilst Manitou/Major/Atom free him on the mental plane (something SBP cannot do). It does absolutely nothing. He's back, fully formed, a few panels later:

http://i.imgur.com/k6YfMIT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YC1MG9d.png

Edit: note the use of Superman's HV in the second to last panel. Directly after saying 'Leave nothing standing, people'. He was cutting loose. With his HV. And didn't do what J'onn did. Guess J'onn cutting loose > Superman cutting loose.

See my question in this VERY thread. I quote it so that you can easily see what I was referring to. I have also truncated it so that you do not get lost in the text, and can easily see what I was referring to:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As for the Martians, are we including the Burning Martians too?

Your first mistake is thinking he/she has the capability to distinguish between Fernus and J'onn.

I'll extend the martians vs kryptonians debate to anybody willing to do it, even without any kind of 'winner has to leave' stipulations. That's something that's in place only for morons.

I'm honestly craving for a battlezone. Anybody?

No, its just you.

Most people wouldn't.

I've never even visited the BZ. Sounds stupid. You know, for morons.

Hey now. My BZs are fun.

I'll even reverse the position, and argue for martians, lol.

I'm relatively free next week, that's why I'm asking.

Originally posted by riv6672
I've never even visited the BZ. Sounds stupid. You know, for morons.

If it were for morons, it'd be perfect for you. vin

However I know the real reason you wouldn't.

Originally posted by Delta1938
If it were for morons, it'd be perfect for you. vin

If i wanted my own comeback, i'd wipe your mom's chin.

Originally posted by riv6672
If i wanted my own comeback, i'd wipe your mom's chin.

Not sure which is more of a failure. This, or your arguments. hmm

Eh, if we're including the named characters, kryptonians would generally win.

I could see a comic being written where the generic members of each race fight and it's reasonably equal, but Kryptonians have been shown to just have a higher ceiling than Martians, imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Eh, if we're including the named characters, kryptonians would generally win.

I could see a comic being written where the generic members of each race fight and it's reasonably equal, but Kryptonians have been shown to just have a higher ceiling than Martians, imo.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Not sure which is more of a failure. This, or your arguments. hmm
You to your mother.

Originally posted by riv6672
You to your mother.

We know the reason you're trying to get a rise out of me by bringing up my mother, is the only way to get a rise out of you is with Viagra.

^^^Hey, just giving you what you obviously want, attention.
You initiated this exchange.

But enough about me, you, and your mom. Back on topic.

The above actually sounds like fun. With no "Get out of Dodge" stips, if I get to rep Superman and the Kryptonians, and you J'onn and the Martians, my only additions would be:

1) Burning Martians disallowed.
2) I get Delta1938, Rao Kal-el, Abhilegend, and Digi as judges.
Delta1938, at the very least, but the more the merrier.
You can have Martian Mind and Pr on the judging panel, if you wish.
In the event of a deadlock, Delta or yourself declares the winner.

Haha, I love how you're afraid to back martians against the kryptonians, but are willing to go the other way AND have a panel of judges comprised almost solely of Superman fans.

You know the best part?

I agree even under these stipulations. I always have fun arguing against what I believe.

Digi, Pr, Abhi, Rao, Delta, Martian Mind and Darksaint as judges?

Cool.

Opening post + 5 posts each?
The battlezone ending by the weekend?
Would that be ok?

It would be better if at least in these conditions you'd have the guts to take the self-imposed ban, but I'm asking too much. You're not in agreement with this, no?

Originally posted by riv6672
^^^Hey, just giving you what you obviously want, attention.
You initiated this exchange.

But enough about me, you, and your mom. Back on topic.

nah I just made a comment on the real reason you wouldn't do it. I don't crave attention like you do. But keep your spirits up Riv!! I mean, you can manage to keep that much up, right?

I agree to judge. This shall be interesting.

I'll add leonidas if he wishes, because Rao will most likely be unavailable.

Originally posted by Delta1938
nah I just made a comment
Yeah. You initiated it.
And i said your mother had my comeback on her chin.
Glad we're on the same page.

As i dont need a warning, you know, for saying your mother has my comeback on her chin, imma peace out.

This was a MOST enjoyable thread.