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Great blog
However given that mace was an "eight bordering nine", being a high 8 wouldn't put him above mace(as a duelist)

Definitely > Tyranus as a duelist, whether Tenebrous and Venamis are > Vader or not (which they are).

9. Just not as high as Yoda or Sidious. Higher than Vader and Mace.

Actually, is the general consensus that Tyranus is > Vader in sabers, just weaker in the Force?

People have been going around, calling him a 9, too.

Given vader being marginally superior to ben who is superior to rots kenobi, vader may well be above dooku in canon now

Talking 'bout Legends.

I was considering placing Plagueis as bordering 8 and 9. I'm not completely sure, that's why I want other opinions. But if you use the evidence I've given generously that would make Plagueis 9, but below Yoda/Sidious.



I'd say Tenebrous/Venamis are most likely better better swordsmen than Vader. I mean, just the duel with Venamis against Plagueis displays exactly what Vader can't handle.

Vader's fighting style was formed to find patterns and exploit them. Venamis was ambidextrous and mixing forms, something that Vader wouldn't have the best time with. Plus Venamis was moving his body very quickly and the two duelists would appear to be lightning bolts due to their speed. Vader would not be quick enough to deal with them in my opinion. Hence why I stand by Vader being an 8 and Plagueis being a 9.



I agree. The list goes like this roughly:

9.
GM Luke
Sidious/Yoda/Amped Mace (if vsing darkside)/Pre-suit Vader
Plagueis

8.
Vader
Mace (not amped)/Tyrannus

Though I'm not entirely sure if Vader surpasses Mace and Tyrannus



Imo, Vader > Tyrannus but only slightly. Suit Vader studied makashi and implemented it into his own style so he's more prepared to face it. Plus he knows Dooku's technique, Dooku does not know Suit Vader's technique. Plus Vader's Form V Djem So strikes would be even stronger than pre-suit.

Vader therefore imo is the superior duelist.

Tyrannus is not a 9. He's pretty much equal to Mace, who's an 8.

Plagueis being a 9 and below yoda/sidious is plausible given the massive difference inside each of the tiers

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/img_3037.PNG

Very nice thread.

Yeah, Plagueis is a beast, definitely a 9. Great job.

Reviving this thread.

Thoughts?

Very good not too far behind Thanaton now

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Very good not too far behind Thanaton now

What do you mean ?

bUt aLl nINeS ArE eQuAl.

Originally posted by samappo
What do you mean ? hes joking

Yes, they are equal according to Gillard... roughly. Circumstances and environments really determine the outcome. During the Yoda vs Sidious fight, it was perfect for Yoda, not so much Sidious. Hence why he tried to run to find more room to fight with. I'd probably put Plagueis in the same position as Windu or slightly higher.

That's the stupidest shit of all time. Of course not all T9's are "equal." T9 is the cap but there are beings that surpass the likes of Yoda and RotS Sidious in this regard. I.E. GM Luke and varying incarnations of Sidious. Why would someone like DE Sidious be only an equal to a less powerful version of himself?

He wouldn't. Even if somebody wants to say his skill had deteriorated and therefore he was on par as a lightsaber combatant because he had better augmentation and less skill, the fact that he has better augmentation means that the tier system has possible exceptions. I.E. a being more powerful ( something we know is possible ) and equally skilled to the likes of RotS Sidious.

Shit likes this is what killed the forum.

Originally posted by samappo
Yes, they are equal according to Gillard... roughly. Circumstances and environments really determine the outcome. During the Yoda vs Sidious fight, it was perfect for Yoda, not so much Sidious. Hence why he tried to run to find more room to fight with. I'd probably put Plagueis in the same position as Windu or slightly higher.

How does that make any sense? I thought they said it was like it Richter scale, the gap between 8 and 9 being massive. Which makes literally zero sense if the gap between 9's is essentially none.....

Beyond this, And I probably sound like a broken record, please don't try to put people into the Gillard tier list who aren't actually mentioned. If you do it leads to idiotic comments like "Hur der Kun is a 7 in dueling and Fisto is a 7 in Dueling so they r equal boi.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Shit likes this is what killed the forum.

Exactly.

I'd rank Plagueis and Tenebrous around Dooku and Mace in dueling.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Shit likes this is what killed the forum.

Among other things..

That's why I said "shit like this."

Id say Plaguies is at least a 9 on par with Sidious otherwise why would Sidious wait until he was drunk/passed out to kill him? why not take him head on unless Sidious wasn't sure if he could take his Master down in a fair fight?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That's the stupidest shit of all time. Of course not all T9's are "equal." T9 is the cap but there are beings that surpass the likes of Yoda and RotS Sidious in this regard. I.E. GM Luke and varying incarnations of Sidious. Why would someone like DE Sidious be only an equal to a less powerful version of himself?

He wouldn't. Even if somebody wants to say his skill had deteriorated and therefore he was on par as a lightsaber combatant because he had better augmentation and less skill, the fact that he has better augmentation means that the tier system has possible exceptions. I.E. a being more powerful ( something we know is possible ) and equally skilled to the likes of RotS Sidious.

Gillard wasn't thinking about the EU when he and Lucas came up with this tier system. In the context of the movies, all 9 level fights are results of circumstance and environmental factors, as Gillard himself states. This makes sense, as we find the only 9 v 9 fight in the movies , the outcome of the lightsaber part was Yoda disarming Sidious. This is because Sidious was stuck in a very stymied position, whereas Yoda due to his stature had plenty of room to maneuver with his Form IV.

Again, in the context of the movies only, the only 9's are not up there purely because they're too fast for people. Gillard let's us know very plainly that Sidious for example wasn't just someone who used to be good and now makes up for it in speed alone. He's a master of all forms and all weapons, he's ambidextrous and never goes a millimeter out of position with his lightsaber. Regardless of whether there is an explanation or not as to how Sidious was able to keep up his lightsaber skills is irrelevant, since the stated fact is that Sidious is a good lightsaber duelist, not a "Versus series Youtube Sidious who is trash and is just lightning fast".

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Shit likes this is what killed the forum.

I don't go on this forum regularly, but I'd like to chip in my two cents. I've posted a very large thread thesis about Plagueis and his lightsaber abilities which is thoroughly sourced. I'm trying my best to place Plagueis to my best opinion and have asked others to assist me and give me their thoughts.

I think it's perhaps people like you who are stuck in this sort of mindset where you think everyone with a different opinion to you is trolling. How about you just be constructively critical instead of claiming why I'm part of the reason why this forum is "dead".

Originally posted by TheMuser
How does that make any sense? I thought they said it was like it Richter scale, the gap between 8 and 9 being massive. Which makes literally zero sense if the gap between 9's is essentially none.....

Again, Gillard's own words, in the context of the movies, all 9's fights are about circumstance and environmental factors , since their skill is that high.

Originally posted by TheMuser Beyond this, And I probably sound like a broken record, please don't try to put people into the Gillard tier list who aren't actually mentioned. If you do it leads to idiotic comments like "Hur der Kun is a 7 in dueling and Fisto is a 7 in Dueling so they r equal boi.

What? I am not definitively claiming that Darth Plagueis is "x" tier. I'm discussing where he should be relative to other people in the movies in my opinion. This does not equate to me attempting to play God.

Originally posted by relentless1
Id say Plaguies is at least a 9 on par with Sidious otherwise why would Sidious wait until he was drunk/passed out to kill him? why not take him head on unless Sidious wasn't sure if he could take his Master down in a fair fight?

It comes down to whether Sidious' lightsaber abilities changed in anyway between TPM or not. If they did, then Plagueis is not on that level, if they didn't, well then, Plagueis would definitely be a solid 9.

Originally posted by samappo
Again, Gillard's own words, in the context of the movies, all 9's fights are about circumstance and environmental factors , since their skill is that high.



What? I am not definitively claiming that Darth Plagueis is "x" tier. I'm discussing where he should be relative to other people in the movies in my opinion. This does not equate to me attempting to play God.

To your first point. I heard you the first time, I am saying that "in the context of the films" And otherwise for that matter, Saying all nines are equal is moronic, meaning Gillard said something dumb and that I find to be both logically in congruent, as well as contrary to a point I thought he had also made. This was not a attack on you.

As to your second point, Again, this is not a attack on you nor am I claiming you are trying to play god. However I am saying that when people, even if they are not making this argument, attempt to include characters into a ranking system made by Gillard (A system that you mentioned never had the EU in mind) it leads to stupid arguments (None of which you made) like the example I have above.

I have heard people say stuff like "X PT character mentioned in the Gillard tiering system>OT Character never mentioned in the tiering system cause X PT character is a 8 and OT Character can't possibly beat a X tier duelist!!!!!!!"

My point is that, unless we are directly comparing characters on the Gillard Tiering list we should not try to reference it in any way when discussing the capability of duelists in the SW universe.

Originally posted by TheMuser
To your first point. I heard you the first time, I am saying that "in the context of the films" And otherwise for that matter, Saying all nines are equal is moronic, meaning Gillard said something dumb and that I find to be both logically in congruent, as well as contrary to a point I thought he had also made. This was not a attack on you.

As to your second point, Again, this is not a attack on you nor am I claiming you are trying to play god. However I am saying that when people, even if they are not making this argument, attempt to include characters into a ranking system made by Gillard (A system that you mentioned never had the EU in mind) it leads to stupid arguments (None of which you made) like the example I have above.

I have heard people say stuff like "X PT character mentioned in the Gillard tiering system>OT Character never mentioned in the tiering system cause X PT character is a 8 and OT Character can't possibly beat a X tier duelist!!!!!!!"

My point is that, unless we are directly comparing characters on the Gillard Tiering list we should not try to reference it in any way when discussing the capability of duelists in the SW universe.

1. You could equally call Lucas' statement that Anakin could have beaten the emperor in ROTS as "moronic", that doesn't mean you may substitute your opinion in place of fact. I also wouldn't necessarily say that Gillard meant all 9's were "equal". He basically meant that they are that good that it comes down to factors other than skill. And to be fair, Gillard was only really thinking about 2 or 3 characters when he made the 9th tier. So it's not like there's so many characters that are "equal".

2. While you have a point, it's also true that Gillard's tier system is a definitive ranking of certain duelists in the movies. That is canon fact. If we disregard it completely then we get stupid opinions like the Versus series youtubers who think Palps is a low tier duelist. Or that Vader beats Yoda.

Transferring the abilities of Vader and Luke and putting them up against prequel characters is difficult ... although the EU likes to suggest that the OT duels were just as intense as the PT, I feel like Lucas really did intend the PT to the prime of dueling ... it all comes down to, imo, how good WAS Vader? Because Luke simply scales off of Vader really.

Originally posted by samappo
1. You could equally call Lucas' statement that Anakin could have beaten the emperor in ROTS as "moronic", that doesn't mean you may substitute your opinion in place of fact. I also wouldn't necessarily say that Gillard meant all 9's were "equal". He basically meant that they are that good that it comes down to factors other than skill. And to be fair, Gillard was only really thinking about 2 or 3 characters when he made the 9th tier. So it's not like there's so many characters that are "equal".

2. While you have a point, it's also true that Gillard's tier system is a definitive ranking of certain duelists in the movies. That is canon fact. If we disregard it completely then we get stupid opinions like the Versus series youtubers who think Palps is a low tier duelist. Or that Vader beats Yoda.

Transferring the abilities of Vader and Luke and putting them up against prequel characters is difficult ... although the EU likes to suggest that the OT duels were just as intense as the PT, I feel like Lucas really did intend the PT to the prime of dueling ... it all comes down to, imo, how good WAS Vader? Because Luke simply scales off of Vader really.

1. Honestly, From what iv'e heard from knightfall Anakin, the Idea of him>Palps might not be far fetched considering what he did to Dooku. Also I'm not substituting my opinion for fact, I will accept that, in the context of the films, all nines are close from a in universe prospective, that doesn't mean I have to like it or can't think its dumb.

2. I never asked you to disregard anything, if you read carefully you would have read this minor point....

"unless we are directly comparing characters on the Gillard Tiering list we should not try to reference it in any way when discussing the capability of duelists in the SW universe."

Also if you need Gillards tiering list to prove Sidious is ludicrously effective with a lightsaber.....You honestly might need to go back and learn more on sidious. Trust me, as someone who almost never referenced that tiering system, its not hard......

How exactly is gauging Vader's skill as a duelist more difficult then gauging the skill of anyone else in all of SW? (Bar people on Gillard's tier list)

Originally posted by samappo
I don't go on this forum regularly, but I'd like to chip in my two cents. I've posted a very large thread thesis about Plagueis and his lightsaber abilities which is thoroughly sourced. I'm trying my best to place Plagueis to my best opinion and have asked others to assist me and give me their thoughts.

I think it's perhaps people like you who are stuck in this sort of mindset where you think everyone with a different opinion to you is trolling. How about you just be constructively critical instead of claiming why I'm part of the reason why this forum is "dead".

I don't think you're trolling and I even if I did it wouldn't be because you disagreed with me.

I think it's utterly stupid to take a statement regarding the tier system as fact when the function you're describing is outright contradicted.

Originally posted by TheMuser
1. Honestly, From what iv'e heard from knightfall Anakin, the Idea of him>Palps might not be far fetched considering what he did to Dooku. Also I'm not substituting my opinion for fact, I will accept that, in the context of the films, all nines are close from a in universe prospective, that doesn't mean I have to like it or can't think its dumb.

2. I never asked you to disregard anything, if you read carefully you would have read this minor point....

"unless we are directly comparing characters on the Gillard Tiering list we should not try to reference it in any way when discussing the capability of duelists in the SW universe."

Also if you need Gillards tiering list to prove Sidious is ludicrously effective with a lightsaber.....You honestly might need to go back and learn more on sidious. Trust me, as someone who almost never referenced that tiering system, its not hard......

How exactly is gauging Vader's skill as a duelist more difficult then gauging the skill of anyone else in all of SW? (Bar people on Gillard's tier list)

1. Lucas directly confirms that knightfall Anakin > the emperor. Anyway, that's cool, just as long as you recognise the fact in the canon.

2. I'm more than aware that there are plenty of arguments for Sidious. But it's far simpler to take the overall result from the fact established by Lucas/Gillard, which is that Sidious is ludicrously good, since he's a 9, and only Yoda and Anakin are a match for him in lightsabers.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I don't think you're trolling and I even if I did it wouldn't be because you disagreed with me.

I think it's utterly stupid to take a statement regarding the tier system as fact when the function you're describing is outright contradicted.

The tier system is always a fact? It's never not a fact.

****en hell.