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Now for the duel of fates.

Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing. He was backed to the edge of the chamber beyond, keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon..."

Maul got injured during the fight, multiple times. Which means that Jinn and or Jinn + Kenobi penetrated his defenses on multiple occasions. Not exactly a clear sign of an easy fight, especially if the majority of these wounds happened when Jinn and Maul were fighting alone.

Also note that Maul was "keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon...".

Qui-Gon was on his feet as well, his own weapon flashing. He catapulted through the opening that led into the melting pit and closed with the Sith Lord, forcing him back, out of the passageway completely.

Note the use of the word force. Maul before this was definitely leading Jinn on towards the melting pit, but this passage indicates that Maul was getting beaten back forcefully as well, at least in this point in time.

He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Then Darth Maul back-flipped across the melting pit, giving himself some space in which to recover, gaining just enough time to assume a new battle stance. Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew.

These passages show that Jinn matched Maul. Sure Maul won, Jinn was old had flagging stamina. But to make Maul 'stymied' (to prevent or hinder the progress of) and 'uncertain' about how the fight was going to play out is quite impressive. Even when Maul back-flipped across the pit, he could barely assume a battle stance before Jinn was already engaging him again.

At his best he could keep Maul constantly on the defensive (granted this was after he meditated to go all out). Now I'm not going to factor in Form IV's weakness of limited room too much since Maul was also hindered as he couldn't use his saber-staff as effectively, as well as the fact that Jinn was continuously staying close to Maul to hinder Maul's weapon further. But granted, it did contribute to Jinn's defeat in that room. I would however attribute 80% of it and the main reason as being that he had fought for too long, and he didn't have the stamina to continue. Maul, who was younger did.

But there is no way, in my opinion, and from the evidence I have displayed here, that one could call Maul 'way better' than Qui-Gon. In fact, Jinn matched Maul and gave him a true challenge.

If Jinn and Maul were placed on neutral ground, both being fresh (Jinn on Tantooine had walked/ran all the way from the town to the ship) where he'd have space to use Form IV more effectively; until the fight got to the 15-20 minute mark, I would give Jinn a 50/50 chance of winning. But once he starts tiring, Maul slowly gains more and more of an edge.

So either Jinn takes Maul before the time is up, or Maul at that point will only gain more and more of an advantage.

Thoughts?

Nice to see people bring up End Game. Qui-Gon is a near-equal of Maul's bar stamina.

I'd go further and say Qui-Gon is Maul's equal bar stamina.

But thank you.

Read my Plagueis one that I posted today as well if you want

He's not. The TPM novel establishes Maul as being faster and stronger, and remember that Qui-Gon only equalled an injured Maul on Tatooine.

That being said, that injury was close to negligible, so the difference is, again, very slight.

I've seen the Plagueis one. That was good too.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's not. The TPM novel establishes Maul as being faster and stronger, and remember that Qui-Gon only equalled an injured Maul on Tatooine.

That being said, that injury was close to negligible, so the difference is, again, very slight.

I've seen the Plagueis one. That was good too.

The words I found in the novel and what I discuss were younger, quicker and stronger than Qui-Gon...

But just because Maul is younger, quicker and stronger doesn't mean they aren't equals. I think Jinn's experience levels the playing field in these departments, hence why I call them equals bar stamina. That's just my opinion though.

As for the injury, I wouldn't consider it since Jinn was tired already from running, So either they even out or gives advantage to Maul, since Jinn was running in the Tantooine heat for quite a while.

So no qualms with the Plagueis one? No one has challenged me yet really.

Jinn's experience wasn't a factor in their fights, though; Maul's physicals were. Experience generally doesn't matter unless your opponent is inexperienced. Also, is there an explicit source for how much Jinn tired as a result of running through the desert? I've been looking for one. The extent to which he was tired is probably also important.

Maul's strength and agility weren't enough for Maul to gain the edge because Jinn was capable enough to nullify them through skill and experience. Since they even out they don't become a factor until Jinn becomes significantly tired as he did at the end of the duel of fates.

I don't think any source states how tired he was. We can assume it had at least enough of an impact to nullify Darth Maul's minor injury, if not more. But even if both those cancel out for argument's sake, they still fought as equals. I mean, Maul was visibly concerned in both fights, especially the first, because Jinn could anticipate every attack he made.

Again, nowhere is Jinn's experience suggested to be a factor, and there's no reason for it to be a factor against one of the most highly trained Sith in history. Qui-Gon hasn't even had an encounter with someone like Maul before; the closest he had were his fights with Xanatos - otherwise his experience would be based on sparring matches. Whereas Maul has fought several Jedi and has been appropriately trained for fighting and killing Jedi as Sidious notes in TPM.

By contrast, Qui-Gon immediately notes that Maul, even when injured, was faster and stronger than he was, and TCSWE claims that he couldn't physically compete with Maul. That's a very clear and definite advantage, whereas Qui-Gon's experience is never noted to be a threat to Maul in any source.

being able to anticipate every move maul makes would likely be a byproduct of experience in fairness

Maul was able to do the same to Qui-Gon, so it's not all that important. In saber duels, both combatants generally anticipate their opponents' moves; if you can't but they can, you get a nice little SWR Maul vs Obi-Wan situation going on.

That's a figure of speech, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, nowhere is Jinn's experience suggested to be a factor, and there's no reason for it to be a factor against one of the most highly trained Sith in history. Qui-Gon hasn't even had an encounter with someone like Maul before; the closest he had were his fights with Xanatos - otherwise his experience would be based on sparring matches. Whereas Maul has fought several Jedi and has been appropriately trained for fighting and killing Jedi as Sidious notes in TPM.

By contrast, Qui-Gon immediately notes that Maul, even when injured, was faster and stronger than he was, and TCSWE claims that he couldn't physically compete with Maul. That's a very clear and definite advantage, whereas Qui-Gon's experience is never noted to be a threat to Maul in any source.

I think the fact that Maul had all these credentials and advantages yet still got matched by Jinn is impressive on the Jedi Master's part, and the reason why I wrote this was to bring to light some of his feats, since he is usually underrated.

The only advantage being stronger and faster than Jinn gave Maul would become apparent after 15-20 minutes when Jinn could no longer keep up. Before that though, those 'advantages' didn't stop the Jedi Master from matching Darth Maul and giving him a run for his money.

You can't really say sparring matches aren't effective. The best swordsmen of the Jedi Order in the prequel trilogy where considered some of the best in the history of the order in various sources, and they never (other than some select cases like Xanatos) engaged Sith/Dark Jedi. Sparring was an effective tool just as much as live combat, and you can improve quicker. Tenebrous/Plagueis/Venamis/Sidious mastered lightsaber combat through sparring. So I wouldn't discredit sparring necessarily.

True, his experience isn't noted to be a threat, but as I quoted from the novelisation, Maul viewed Jinn as a worthy challenge finally, and in the duel of fates Jinn stymied the Sith Lord and even appeared to be uncertain as to the outcome of the fight as he was pushed back by Jinn's offensive.

Throughout the Jedi Apprentice Novels, Jinn displays Shien tendencies(pin-point accurate blaster redirection) and even some Djem So tendencies a well, though to a lesser degree.

Just something to add to the old man's repertoire

I used to read them in primary school, can't remember them now. Thanks though

Originally posted by samappo
I used to read them in primary school, can't remember them now. Thanks though

I went through all 32 books, twice in two weeks.

That shit is forever etched into my brain. So no problem lmao

Nice hahaha