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Obviously, I've never really supported this stance that Darth Tenebrous is close to Darth Plagueis or whatever. To me, it doesn't make any logical sense, nor is it consistent with all the previous Star Wars eras, that thirty Sith are produced that are consecutively more powerful than the base (who is canonically one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history). Further, we would rather quickly reach a point where each Sith coming after is more powerful than the most powerful in all of history before it... maybe even ten times in a row. What are the chances that, say, Vitiate, who is the most powerful Sith Lord for 27,000 years before him, is surpassed ten times over consecutively by the leading powerhouse of that generation? To me, zero. Generational powerhouses are rarely galactic powers. Figures like Exar Kun or Revan, who's power can spawn across centuries without contest, are outliers. Most generations do not produce a figure that a name is even given to, let alone being comparable to the likes of Revan or Exar Kun. For example, the time-frame between the Revan novelization and The Old Republic generations featured over two centuries of births. Not one of these figures, as per Scourge, were more powerful than Meetra Surik. Further, for the "centuries" prior to Darth Bane, not one of the Sith were more powerful than him. Yet suddenly generations boom with Sith superior to Darth Bane over-and-over-and-over again? What's the statistical chance of that happening? Extremely low. And why the hell is Palpatine referring to Darth Bane's power in semi-awe and that he's one of his most powerful predecessors if Darth Bane's power is nothing special? A Sith Lord born with superior powers than him thirty times over makes his power incredibly un-unique.

I understand that many quotes state the Sith grew more powerful each generation, but I suggest a more loose interpretation of such. The likelihood of a new history-spanning powerhouse being born again and again is next to none. But the fact that the Sith were growing in knowledge and influence and slowly shifting the balance of the Force toward the dark-side could mean that the Sith were "growing in power" (not Force power, but other just-as-relevant aspects). And I imagine that the Sith overall did grow in Force power, but the graph was very much a weak and slow positive correlation (like this: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/correlation-1219636145574476-8/95/correlation-57-728.jpg?cb=1219610980) than a direct one (i.e. http://www.shortell.org/book/s18b.gif) like everyone suggests. I am sure that many Sith between the start and end of the lineage were more powerful than Darth Bane, but the notion they all were is just... next-to-impossible, for me at least.

Tbh I'm actually really curious to see if you're sway over this forum is powerful enough to make people fall into a line on this one. I mean, you managed to brainwash everyone into Anakin wank but I don't think EVEN YOU are powerful enough to get people to make such a large shift a second time.

Yeah I don't take Banite scaling too seriously

Oh shit... I think I may have overestimated them...

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Tbh I'm actually really curious to see if you're sway over this forum is powerful enough to make people fall into a line on this one. I mean, you managed to brainwash everyone into Anakin wank but I don't think EVEN YOU are powerful enough to get people to make such a large shift a second time.
I'm actually just voicing my opinion with this one. I doubt I'll change a lot of people's opinions.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm actually just voicing my opinion with this one.

You think I was born 564 days ago?

You make a good point.

But there are some counter arguments to it. Which I'm not interested in debating cuz lolno

Still Banite scaling is a thing, like it not.

I think the only counter (quote-spamming aside) would be that the slow shift in the galaxy's alignment contributed to the birth of dark-siders. However, this theory would suggest that there is a correlation between the power of dark-siders and the state of the galaxy or environment at which they were conceived, which seems like a stretch unless the Banites were born inherently evil like Vitiate or Palpatine.

Apparently the Darkside is more concentrated the less individual darksiders there are according to Bane in the DBT meaning that the influence of the Darkside on the Galaxy would be more closely tied to the individual members of the RoT line seeing as they're some of the only existing darksiders in the Galaxy and certainly among the most powerful.

I don't think there's any correlation between amount of dark-siders and the potential power of said dark-siders. That just... wouldn't make sense. I think Darth Bane's ideology was very ideological and symbolic in nature, not literal.

Personally, I think the idea has some merit. It sounds like something the SW writers would do and I could imagine the Force producing more powerful individuals inclined towards the Darkside as a passive way of keeping balance ( I.E. Sidious ).

That's just theory crafting though.

Well, another potential counter is that power breeds power, and as talented as individuals like Revan and Kun were, it was their study of the Dark Side (and in Revan's case the Light) that allowed them to achieve great actualised power. Revan was a prodigy yes, but he had to learn a lot to actually reach his height.

It's possible that most Sith in history never reached that peak due to the climate they lived in, with Valkorion and Kun being notable exceptions to that rule. The Rule of Two Sith however would almost always reach their peak, and they'd have unrestricted access to a library of Sith knowledge that allowed to them do it, quickly.

PS: Ant, how seriously do you actually take that Scourge quote?

I more or less agree with Sel. I think most of the powerful Sith, let's say, from KOTOR/TOR era would be far more powerful if they had access to RoT training and knowledge.

Especially since they wouldn't have to watch their backs constantly, I mean yeah they had to watch their apprentice....but I mean that's better than 1,000s of other Sith breathing down your neck that wanna kill you.

I'm in complete agreement with Ant on this one. I think it's far more likely that each Banite Sith became more powerful in a different sense than just the Force. Whether it was amassing wealth, political power, a criminal network, or what have you. The idea that the RoT created dozens of Sith consecutively, more powerful than Bane, is ludicrous to me, quotes or not. While I'm not opposed to the idea that SOME of those Sith were far more powerful than others, the prospect of each one being exponentially more powerful than the last, is laughable.

@Selenial: I can't respond in-full now, but I find that unlikely because otherwise the Jedi Order should have consistently produced powerhouses since they are in a perfect opportunity to reach their full-potential. Yet we get Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn, hailed as one of the greatest ever, but blatantly not anything to the Sith greats. I'd also wager Revan's more powerful than any Jedi who came before and after until Yoda. I would think there would be a lot less Adi Gallias and Kit Fistos are more Dookus in the Order's history otherwise (but we know that not to be the case).

If we go by mere logic on this one, Ant's right. I brought up a similar point in the past, which was dismissed due to the fact that RoT Sith growing more powerful is a canonical fact .

However, I personally strongly dislike this particular canonical fact. It doesn't make much sense to me. Knowledge can only take you so far if you don't have massive potential.

Agreed, I've argued for this in the past only to be called biased and stuff. You could also add the argument that the Sith Order's main goal, as per Bane, was to grow in power to defeat the Jedi in anything but an all out war so those quotes saying that they grew more powerful with each generation could easily be reduced to different aspects of power.

It's true, Palpatine is only the most powerful sith politically.

Bane kicks his ass.

No, it's probably the opposite. You underestimate the scope of the galaxy, and overestimate the idea of talent. Force sensitive beings are present in every corner of the universe, and excepting the few thousand that are nurtured by force-using organizations, the unbelievably vast majority of them never amount to anything. Kyp Durron, Revan, Palpatine, each of them was born into an insignificant family and would likely have continued to live a (relatively) insignificant life were they among the 99.999% of force-sensitive individuals who weren't indoctrinated into a force-sect. It's silly to assume they're the only folks in the galaxy who could have become who they did; just because we can't see it through the pinhole we observe the SW mythos through doesn't mean it's not there.

Furthermore, the vast majority of even those who are indoctrinated obviously don't live up to their full potential. Conversely, with the kinds of resources available to the lineage of Bane, and years of investment on the part of some Sith Lord of legendary prowess, I'm pretty confident even an unremarkable force-sensitive would become a remarkable Sith. Kinda like someone of average intelligence who diligently studied under a world-class tutor scoring higher on a test than a genius who was put through a standardized class. Although, like I was saying before, it's not like a fully-fledged Banite Sith wouldn't be able to locate an exceptionally talented apprentice with some years of searching. It only took Bane a few hours after assuming his mantle to find someone stronger in the Force than himself, after all.

Oh, and lastly, you're just wrong. It's a fact that each generation surpassed the last. Stupid thread.

It's based on the idea that 'powerful' can only indicate Force Power which is nothing short of limited thinking especially if you read the Bane Trilogy.

Retarded arguement from DD9 as usual.

As for the thread, nice mental gymnastics, but ultimately futile. RoT scaling is canon, all these tantrums from people won't change that.

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

--Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient."

--Darth Sidious, Book of the Sith

Also, the dark side transferred from one apprenticel to the next upon killing their Master's. They grew in raw Force power with each generation. Bane was right: the Force is venom.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Retarded arguement from DD9 as usual.

As for the thread, nice mental gymnastics, but ultimately futile. RoT scaling is canon, all these tantrums from people won't change that.

It isn't really an argument, more a fact that 'power' has multiple meanings depending on the context.

Originally posted by Azronger
For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

--Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient."

--Darth Sidious, Book of the Sith

You know that Bane himself describes the "true power of the dark side" as cunning, manipulation, ... right?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
It isn't really an argument, more a fact that 'power' has multiple meanings depending on the context.

The context is blatantly clear:

As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

Way clearer than most quotes refering to power as a matter of fact.

DD9 has been arguing about the ambiguity of the quotes for months now. Back when Silver was still on the Vine. It's abundantly clear what they're referring to.

It's funny that only quotes that someone doesn't like are ambiguous. What about the dozen other quotes claiming people to be this and that powerful? Yeah, let's ignore them next.

I could care less if the quote is valid or not, my ranking of these characters stay the same, I just don't agree with the proposed context. That quote is from 2001 before the Sith Order was fleshed out properly and the Bane trilogy makes it very clear how Bane prefers to create an Order which is based on stealth, manipulation,... rather than all out war (combative Force Power) yet the primary function would be to increase in Force Power? Seems very odd amd unlogical. I'll go even further om this, why would Bane in DoE think Zannah's unworthy as his successor despite acknowledging her greater power? Or why would he despise Kas'im for confronting him honorably rather than stabbing him in the back? Or why would he praise Githany for trying to poisem him rather than confronting him in a duel? There are countless arguments that go against your interpretation of the quote, odd again.

What's even more remarkable is that the giys who actually have an agenda accuse me of having one. I mean it's not going to affect Ezra or Kylo Ren or Maul or ... No but it's definitely going to be a problem for the Tenebrous - Plagueis - Palpatine supporters and who could that be...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Selenial: I can't respond in-full now, but I find that unlikely because otherwise the Jedi Order should have consistently produced powerhouses since they are in a perfect opportunity to reach their full-potential. Yet we get Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn, hailed as one of the greatest ever, but blatantly not anything to the Sith greats. I'd also wager Revan's more powerful than any Jedi who came before and after until Yoda. I would think there would be a lot less Adi Gallias and Kit Fistos are more Dookus in the Order's history otherwise (but we know that not to be the case).

Just to make it clear, to me the idea of Banite scaling is bullshit too, but this is where we find ourselves.

That argument doesn't really hold true, given how the Jedi were not at all as combat focussed as the Sith, it makes sense that the combative prime of the general Jedi Order was during a period of war (KOTOR era or PT era) as that is the only time the order would really focus on combat. This compared to the Sith who would always focus on combative displays of power, less on History, Politics and Philosophy as the Jedi too.

And I'd draw your attention to the quote Azronger posted tbh, where a direct correlation between knowledge and power is made.

I neat sentiment Tony, but based largely on conjecture and running counter to the facts.

First of all let's start with the reality that this was how the Rule of Two was intended to work. That with every generation the apprentice would surpass the master. To accept that each successively Sith Lord was more powerful than the last is therefore simply to accept that the Rule of Two was successful, something rather self-evident, I would think.

Moreover, it was Bane specifically that came up with the idea. And funnily enough, he didn't share these concerns. Indeed, let's revisit the crux of Bane's philosophy:
Practically speaking this only makes a modicum of sense, in the respect that it prevents infighting, however in the real world we don't create institutions where only a select group of people are able to study the subject, for the purposes of maximising their skill and intelligence - instead we encourage knowledge to be shared among as many people as we can, and that actually works to our benefit.

However when we consider the cosmological aspect of the Force, it actually stands to reason that a smaller number of Sith would cause the dark side to quite literally become more concentrated around them, to in fact coalesce and centre itself around the individual, who indeed "contains all the power of the dark side" in a very literal respect. We see this in practice in Darth Plagueis repeatedly. For example when Plagueis and Sidious kill their masters, and become the galaxy's sole Sith Lord, (indeed becoming that "One Master" they not only experience a rush of Force induced euphoria, but become physically more powerful:Palpatine going into even greater detail in describing how the dark side shifted to center around him:Moreever Plagueis talks about induction into the Order as as the dark side "taking an interest", coalescing around them to anoint the Sith Lord as among its foremost recipients:When considered in this sense, the idea of "all of the power" of the dark side being contained with a set of individuals starts to take on a very literal shape.

It also stands to reason that these effects would not be present had the Sith Lord numbered in legions (and have nowhere else been displayed), that Plagueis, Sidious & the like may not have become nearly as powerful had this system not existed and instead been one Sith Lord among many. Point being here that though it is true that prodigies in the Force are statistically rare, arguably the very architecture of the Rule of Two ensured that any member deemed worthy of induction would be capable of achieving similarly prodigal power regardless, simply by having the dark side so concentrated around them. This is why and how, the Rule of Two worked. Indeed:Now let's consider another point, namely that despite the supposed rarity of those "supremely strong" in the Force, the Banite Sith that we know seemed to have no trouble finding powerful apprentices. Sidious stumbled upon Maul on Dathomir, and indeed found a fellowship in Dooku who just happened to be perfectly poised to defect to the Sith, Plagueis chanced upon Sidious himself on Naboo, Bane ran into Zannah within hours of fashioning his doctrine, and indeed the Huntress fell into their path as well. The only known exception to this is Plagueis, who was engineered by Tenebrous, but only then to be "strong in the Force", not some kind of prodigal being. Moreover in many of these cases those discovered by the Sith are not perceived as prodigies or outliers, but also merely "strong in the Force."

From this I would infer a couple things:

1. The criteria for being a worthy addition to the Sith Order is not significant, you needn't be a prodigy, nor do the Sith seem to spend much time looking for them, instead simply being "strong in the Force" will do. Ergo, the training, knowledge, and cosmic significance of the Rule of Two itself, is sufficient to shape any reasonably powerful being into something exceptional.

2. The dark side is again, working in concert with the Banite Sith, it is not coincidence that they happened to stumble upon these ideal beings, but fate. Individuals worthy of joining the ranks of the Rule of Two are drawn in by its power and centrality, which makes finding the right beings from a pool of gazillions much easier.

Finally there is left little room for intepretation when it comes to the statements in question, specifically:Is quite clearly referring to Force ability, their increased power being correlated with their "knowledge of the dark side" makes this indisputable. Alternative readings will only run afoul of mental gymnastics if not willfully induced stupidity. DD9's assertion that it refers to them becoming more smart at being evil schemers can be dismissed as the ramblings of an egit. Sidious describing himself as a recipient of Bane's power being dine as an annotation from the Book of Sith extract from above, namely, Bane's treatise on the Force and it's nature, which is, FYI: the true power of the Sith, obviously. Nor is knowledge of the dark side knowledge of cunning or manipulation, but the dark side.

To wrap up I'll address a couple of Anthony's points directly:Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Further, we would rather quickly reach a point where each Sith coming after is more powerful than the most powerful in all of history before it... maybe even ten times in a row. What are the chances that, say, Vitiate, who is the most powerful Sith Lord for 27,000 years before him, is surpassed ten times over consecutively by the leading powerhouse of that generation? To me, zero.Conjecture, we have no clear means of determining how much powerful Vitiate was in regards to Bane, so these assertions are beyond baseless. That said, assuming each generation of Banite Sith grew in power by 5%, the last Sith in the Line would be 4+ times more powerful than Bane, a 7.5% increase, 8, 9 times more powerful, a 10% increase, 17 times. I consider these all to be reasonable figures considering Bane was ultimately a knat in comparison to Palpatine's power.

Sidious never refers to Bane's powers in semi-awe, at least not to my knowledge. We only have Plagueis describing how he'd become deified as a legend, in which respect besides the fact that legends can be exaggerated (certainly, the feats achieved by Gravid, Ramage & Tenebrous' master are much more worthy of recognition than hurling couches...), Tempest has already nixed this point already:Originally posted by The_Tempest
The idea that Bane was surpassed by subsequent generations of Sith Lords and the idea that Bane's powers were legendary are not mutually exclusive. Ancient Spartans were a legendary fighting force... And they'd still be utterly annihilated by any contemporary fighting force.

Behold, no contradiction. Bane is simply the weakest of his line. I have nothing more to add.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, it's probably the opposite. You underestimate the scope of the galaxy, and overestimate the idea of talent. Force sensitive beings are present in every corner of the universe, and excepting the few thousand that are nurtured by force-using organizations, the unbelievably vast majority of them never amount to anything. Kyp Durron, Revan, Palpatine, each of them was born into an insignificant family and would likely have continued to live a (relatively) insignificant life were they among the 99.999% of force-sensitive individuals who weren't indoctrinated into a force-sect. It's silly to assume they're the only folks in the galaxy who could have become who they did; just because we can't see it through the pinhole we observe the SW mythos through doesn't mean it's not there.

Furthermore, the vast majority of even those who are indoctrinated obviously don't live up to their full potential. Conversely, with the kinds of resources available to the lineage of Bane, and years of investment on the part of some Sith Lord of legendary prowess, I'm pretty confident even an unremarkable force-sensitive would become a remarkable Sith. Kinda like someone of average intelligence who diligently studied under a world-class tutor scoring higher on a test than a genius who was put through a standardized class. Although, like I was saying before, it's not like a fully-fledged Banite Sith wouldn't be able to locate an exceptionally talented apprentice with some years of searching. It only took Bane a few hours after assuming his mantle to find someone stronger in the Force than himself, after all.

Oh, and lastly, you're just wrong. It's a fact that each generation surpassed the last. Stupid thread. Also.

Funny that Bane actually refers to cunning and manipulation as the true power of the dark side in PoD.

Hilarious I'm sure, but since you keep saying it. Perhaps regale us with your sources so we can properly scrutinise the claim.

Good post Beni

Yeah, Bane thought that. This isn't Bane, though. This is a quote, and said quote refers to knowledge of the Dark Side giving them power.

Bane can have his pespective; the quote is obviously referring to actualized power in the Force. It's canon, no matter how much you all want to ramble about it.

The quote summarizes what Bane's Order actually accomplished and since sources confirm Bane's intention was achieved it's the same thing.

Not at all. Bane's intention was to create a more powerful individual; not just a more cunning one, but one who is also a superior Force user. He did just that, and so did all his successors.

Depends on what falls under power... That's the whole point of discussion

Do you plan to provide your sources DD or?

Sources are overrated. Feelings are what really matter.

This is a safe place sir.

Unlike the school where you will be/are teaching.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That said, assuming each generation of Banite Sith grew in power by 5%, the last Sith in the Line would be 4+ times more powerful than Bane, a 7.5% increase, 8, 9 times more powerful, a 10% increase, 17 times. I consider these all to be reasonable figures considering Bane was ultimately a knat in comparison to Palpatine's power.

That's clinically retarded, but the rest of it is right I guess mmm

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Funny that Bane actually refers to cunning and manipulation as the true power of the dark side in PoD.
Unfortunately that seems not to be the case for the quotes as Plagueis seems to imply Bane is better at manipulation than any Sith other than Sidious.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's clinically retarded, but the rest of it is right I guess mmm It's maths. uhuh

Beni nailed with his first post.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Depends on what falls under power... That's the whole point of discussion

In this case, it'd be actual Force power seeing as how it's based on the knowledge of the Dark Side. Power isn't really manipulation; that's more a skill. I suppose power can mean political control, but until Palpatine, none of them could gain that. Then there's these quotes:

"For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred."

-- Star Wars Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."

-- The Force and Destiny

Fairly self evident.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Finally there is left little room for intepretation when it comes to the statements in question, specifically:



Is quite clearly referring to Force ability, their increased power being correlated with their "knowledge of the dark side" makes this indisputable. Alternative readings will only run afoul of mental gymnastics if not willfully induced stupidity. DD9's assertion that it refers to them becoming more smart at being evil schemers can be dismissed as the ramblings of an egit. Sidious describing himself as a recipient of Bane's power being dine as an annotation from the Book of Sith extract from above, namely, Bane's treatise on the Force and it's nature, which is, FYI: the true power of the Sith, obviously. Nor is knowledge of the dark side knowledge of cunning or manipulation, but the dark side.

Why is it that "powers" in this context can't literally be in reference to powers, i.e. as they gained dark side knowledge they acquired new abilities and methods to use the dark side to achieve their ends? This is a far more straightforward interpretation of the quote than yours, as that is what happens directly and necessarily when knowledge increases, and obviously with a greater arsenal of darkside techniques their capabilities would naturally be increased.

The relation between darkside knowledge and power levels is far looser by comparison. Your interpretation is also far less consistent with what we've seen these various characters actually demonstrate.

Not to mention, even if your interpretation was the best one, it wouldn't make it factual.

Until you guys bring something that's genuinely a fact to the table, I think we can label this fanon.

Not Legends canon lol.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Why is it that "powers" in this context can't literally be in reference to powers, i.e. as they gained dark side knowledge they acquired new abilities and methods to use the dark side to achieve their ends? This is a far more straightforward interpretation of the quote than yours, as that is what happens directly and necessarily when knowledge increases, and obviously with a greater arsenal of darkside techniques their capabilities would naturally be increased.

The relation between darkside knowledge and power levels is far looser by comparison. Your interpretation is also far less consistent with what we've seen these various characters actually demonstrate.

Not to mention, even if your interpretation was the best one, it wouldn't make it factual.

Until you guys bring something that's genuinely a fact to the table, I think we can label this fanon. It is? Why is it you've decided to reduce this to the number of powers alone as opposed to potency of the preexisting and new powers they learned also? Because I'm not seeing any basis for doing that. mmm

But no the correlation is entirely direct, by gaining a greater understanding of the dark side, one becomes more powerful, and this is reflected at every level of lore and to my knowledge, with no exceptions.

Well the main point I was making is that neither interpretation is factual.

It might be when you're talking about a single person, but not when you're talking about successive generations, as gains from increased knowledge can be offset by other things, such as a weaker connection to the Force from successive members.

Most importantly I don't believe the interpretation made by most in this thread fits with Bane's intentions and expectations at all, though it has been a while since I've read the books and I can't really be bothered to dig out the quotes.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Well the main point I was making is that neither interpretation is factual. Your point seems to be that because there exists an alternative reading it's invalid, however that argument only works if the alternative reading make sense, and it doesn't. Besides being unwarranted by the general terms of the statement (which warrant a general reading), it's grammatically clunky (it should read number of powers increasing) and semantically redundant (it's already implicit that an expanded knowledge of the dark side would grant expanded techniques.) Or simply put, as far as straightforward interpretations go, this is not it.

The Sith archives were passed down through the generations, so each student would benefit from a greater and greater repository of knowledge and understanding of the dark side in general.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Most importantly I don't believe the interpretation made by most in this thread fits with Bane's intentions and expectations at all, though it has been a while since I've read the books and I can't really be bothered to dig out the quotes. Join DD9 in the corner then.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your point seems to be that because there exists an alternative reading it's invalid, however that argument only works if the alternative reading make sense, and it doesn't. Besides being unwarranted by the general terms of the statement (which warrant a general reading), it's grammatically clunky (it should read number of powers increasing) and semantically redundant (it's already implicit that an expanded knowledge of the dark side would grant expanded techniques.) Or simply put, as far as straightforward interpretations go, this is not it.

I might have been a little unclear; what I meant was that you could interpet the statement as saying that with their increased knowledge of the darkside, their powers increased, in the sense that their increased arsenal of techniques would have made them more capable at achieving their ends. I wasn't saying that you should interpret it as saying that as their knowledge increased, the number of powers they knew increased.



I'm not sure how this responds to what I was saying.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Not Legends canon lol.

The source is actually more-or-less composite.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
I might have been a little unclear; what I meant was that you could interpet the statement as saying that with their increased knowledge of the darkside, their powers increased, in the sense that their increased arsenal of techniques would have made them more capable at achieving their ends. I wasn't saying that you should interpret it as saying that as their knowledge increased, the number of powers they knew increased.I know what you said lol, my response is the same.

I'm pointing out that because that knowledge was passed down. Each successive student's knowledge of the dark side would be greater than the last. That could easily correlate into greater power.

Originally posted by MythLord
In this case, it'd be actual Force power seeing as how it's based on the knowledge of the Dark Side. Power isn't really manipulation; that's more a skill. I suppose power can mean political control, but until Palpatine, none of them could gain that. Then there's these quotes:

"For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred."

-- Star Wars Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."

-- The Force and Destiny

Fairly self evident.

Well I think I should express myself better, I don't believe that each succesive member didn't become more powerful since we've actually seen it with Zannah, Plagueis and Palpatine. However I just don't think that Bane's entire Order should be reduced to "more powahful guys" instead of the cunning, manipulative and intelligent Order it should be.

But my interpretation of the statement is not that they gained more abilities as they gained more knowledge. My interpretation is that their capabilities increased as they gained more knowledge, because they gained more abilities. Gaining more knowledge doesn't mean that their capabilities would necessarily increase, so it's not redundant.

Originally posted by MythLord
The source is actually more-or-less composite.

Has it been officially declared Legends canon?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
But my interpretation of the statement is not that they gained more abilities as they gained more knowledge. My interpretation is that their capabilities increased as they gained more knowledge, because they gained more abilities. Gaining more knowledge doesn't mean that their capabilities would necessarily increase, so it's not redundant.

Knowledge is a path to power as per Plagueis and if Dooku can still grow after 70 years of near perfect training by exploring new kind of knowledge than I don't think ruling out those Sith to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Well I think I should express myself better, I don't believe that each succesive member didn't become more powerful since we've actually seen it with Zannah, Plagueis and Palpatine. However I just don't think that Bane's entire Order should be reduced to "more powahful guys" instead of the cunning, manipulative and intelligent Order it should be.

Well, Bane's order isn't just Sith getting more and more uber stronk as the ages pass; they're increasing their knowledge, creating their own techniques, seeding themselves into the galaxy undetected and becoming more intelligent/cunning throughout the experience.

They are indeed improving in many facets, but Force power is one of those facets.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Has it been officially declared Legends canon?

It acknowledges both Canon and Legends, IIRC.

That doesn't really answer my question, and raises the question of whether the statement was in reference to the new canon or Legends canon, at least at face value.

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Knowledge is a path to power as per Plagueis and if Dooku can still grow after 70 years of near perfect training by exploring new kind of knowledge than I don't think ruling out those Sith to be honest.

It's one of many factors. The reason why people usually grow more powerful as their knowledge increases is because all other factors that determine power are kept the same, or are possibly increased themselves.

Saying that x should be more powerful than y solely because he has more knowledge is a different matter entirely, as there could be a huge disparity between x and y based on other factors.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
But my interpretation of the statement is not that they gained more abilities as they gained more knowledge. My interpretation is that their capabilities increased as they gained more knowledge, because they gained more abilities. Gaining more knowledge doesn't mean that their capabilities would necessarily increase, so it's not redundant. That's the same difference lel. You're saying that their knowledge increased so their abilities increased so they became more capable. That's still redudant, as knowledge implies an increase in ability and therefore an increase in capabilities. And fundamentally, you're still arguing that the quote is referring to the number of powers at their disposal increasing, rather than their potency.

No it's not, because the increased knowledge could ultimately be irrelevant or insignificant to their purposes. Their capabilities would only increase in the relavent sense if the knowledge itself was relevant to their purposes.

For example, it's conceivable that their increased knowledge could consist solely of the ability to animate a teacup. Obviously it would be incorrect to say that their capabilities increased in any relevant sense in turn. Would their capabilities have increased in a very general sense of literally being capable of more? Yes, but that's obviously not what I had in mind when interpreting the statement.

The ability to animate a teacup is still a capability, the point is that abilities and capabilities are synonymous.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Yes, but that's obviously not what I had in mind when interpreting the statement. That's all the statement affords you in terms of contexts, I'm afraid. It doesn't say anything about ends or specific purposes.

It's generally implied that text won't be bizarrely irrelevant...

If the statement is referring to their capabilities then the most sensibile reading is that it isn't talking about completely irrelevant capabilities, and that obviously only needed spelling out because you accused it of being redundant.

Like? You brought up an ability to animate a teacup, however, that's not an ability, telekinesis is though, and that's a pretty useful power.

I'm struggling to think of a single Force ability (or dark side technique rather) that could be considered redundant to your typical Banite Sith Lord, without outlining specific purposes, and I think that it because there are none.

And really if their did exist any, it's rather implied that they wouldn't be learning them in the first place.

The problem here is that canon doesn't really give us a particularly expansive insight into all the ways the Force can be manifested with respect to the wealth of knowledge that is usually referenced, so it's not exactly going to be easy for me to give you the examples you're asking for. We have only a small sample to work with, and I'm not as knowledgable of the mythos as I used to be. But not only is it conceivable but almost certain that a lot of knowledge would be of such a nature that it's simply not as valuable as other pieces of knowledge or redundant with respect to any specific purpose in mind. I mean, it could be as simple as the difference between learning a really effective ritual for gathering power and learning a really poor one. Or maybe learning a more comprehensive defence to specific things and learning one that is more limited. Who knows?



But it doesn't mean they wouldn't be uncovering such knowledge.

Anyway for the statement to be redundant knowledge would have to in principle always lead to an increase in relevant capabilities, whether or not it does in SW. Otherwise the statement wouldn't be redundant as it could be informing us of this interesting feature of the SW mythos.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
The problem here is that canon doesn't really give us a particularly expansive insight into all the ways the Force can be manifested with respect to the wealth of knowledge that is usually referenced, so it's not exactly going to be easy for me to give you the examples you're asking for. We have only a small sample to work with, and I'm not as knowledgable of the mythos as I used to be. But not only is it conceivable but almost certain that a lot of knowledge would be of such a nature that it's simply not as valuable as other pieces of knowledge or redundant with respect to any specific purpose in mind. I mean, it could be as simple as the difference between learning a really effective ritual for gathering power and learning a really poor one. Or maybe learning a more comprehensive defence to specific things and learning one that is more limited. Who knows?Sure it does. The Force can be used to manipulate your environment, enhance your body, and offer clairvoyance. In which respect, nothing really conductive to that could be considered redundant, or to knowledge of the dark side in particular. Only perhaps in the respect that the methods in question were poor/ineffective, as you say, or was something they already knew. But broadly speaking, they knowledge they'd gain (and sought out to gain) would be useful, with some outliers in between.

In which respect, the idea that it needs to be specified that they learned useful powers, suggests a logical alternative is that everything they learned or the majority of what they learned was useless. But that is not, in your words, a sensible reading.

The rate of which they'd uncover knowledge would be rather low, obviously they are only going to seek out knowledge if they deem it worth the effort.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Anyway for the statement to be redundant knowledge would have to in principle always lead to an increase in relevant capabilities, whether or not it does in SW. Otherwise the statement wouldn't be redundant as it could be informing us of this interesting feature of the SW mythos. That what, by learning dark side techniques they... learnt useful dark side techniques? How interesting, and necessary to point out. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure it does. The Force can be used to manipulate your environment, enhance your body, and offer clairvoyance. In which respect, nothing really conductive to that could be considered redundant, or to knowledge of the dark side in particular. Only perhaps in the respect that the methods in question were poor/ineffective, as you say, or was something they already knew. But broadly speaking, they knowledge they'd gain (and sought out to gain) would be useful, with some outliers in between.

In which respect, the idea that it needs to be specified that they learned useful powers, suggests a logical alternative is that everything they learned or the majority of what they learned was useless. But that is not, in your words, a sensible reading.

Sure it is. We really wouldn't know to what extent further knowledge might aid their plans. The statement could simply be clarifying that it did.



How sure can you be that uncovering knowledge in any form whatsoever wasn't one of their main pursuits?

And they wouldn't always know how valuable the knowledge would be before uncovering it.



My point was that the statement would have to be logically redundant for it to be redundant at all, and that it being redundant given what we might know about the SW mythos doesn't make it redundant as it appeared in the source, as it could simply be making an observation of such a fact.

I've said this before, the chance that every Banite sith was more powerful than the last over such a long period of time is extremely low.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
Sure it is. We really wouldn't know to what extent further knowledge might aid their plans. The statement could simply be clarifying that it did.Nope, it says nothing specific about plans as previously discussed, and in that respect would clarify nothing. And the idea that they were gathering useless knowledge over the course of generations really makes no sense whatsoever.

If it was then we should assume knowledge in any form would be useful to them, or that uncovering knowledge in any form would net positive results. Otherwise, they wouldn't be doing it.

No they wouldn't that still doesn't lend any logic to the majority of their findings being useless.

No idea what your on about mate, all I will say is that it should be obvious beyond the need to mention that through gaining knowledge of the dark side over a generation, they would acquire useful abilities at an exponential rate.

Originally posted by Rebel95
I've said this before, the chance that every Banite sith was more powerful than the last over such a long period of time is extremely low.

100% is extremely low? Damn...

Jesus Christ. I'd have thought that all this anti-Banite sentiment would've turned up some decent arguments at least.

Why would you think such a thing?

I might've just been shortsightedly optimistic.

Became more powerful in what context? Did Darth Plagueis retain all abilities of Darth Ramage and then build from it, for example?

All I'm gonna say is: Tenebrous feats are mediocre, the way he died was pathetic, and he's an all time failure. Bane has to be low of the pole, if that is what 30 gen of Sith can produce.


That is all.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I am still biased. Thanks DC, but wasn't really needed.

How can people still say that Tenebrous' feats are mediocre? His TK, Speed, Sense and Barrier feats are all amongst the top in the mythos, and he can scale off other amazing Banite feats.

C'mon, u can't honestly be serious right now.

Nah. His TK feat is of a slightly lower class than the others but hardly mediocre.

As I said, you drastically undersell him.

Slightly lower?

I wouldn't say his TK is even top 20 of the mythos. His Force defense showings are solid, but nothing above what Cade displayed, and he is only of the Kenobi class by most, maybe Tyranus class if people wanna wank.

Again, this is all relative to where he is ranked by most here - I mean, Tenebrous' displayed feats doesn't convey the position where he is vaunted to be.

With no evident strain, he managed to telekinetically support layer after layer of collapsing mine ceiling. Said mine tunnel being the size of a cathedral, so a single layer of mine ceiling would be analogous to a cathedral ceiling, and a single layer threatened to crush Tenebrous' ship. And Rugess supported "layer after layer" of them without evident strain.

On a whim, he was capable of conjuring a Barrier that repelled an explosion that was not only collapsing said cathedral-sized mines, but knocked Plagueis (despite him being further away from the explosion than Tenebrous) to the ground.

Tenebrous' Sense was so refined that he could detect his individual midi-chlorians dying out.

His Speed was so great that it nearly knocked Plaugueis over and Hego had to struggle to keep up.

All some of the best in the mythos.

lol @ those being Kenobi or even Dooku tier.

1. As I said, not top 20.
2. Great showing, Cade causally erecting a barrier to shield himself from a lab leveling explosion is around that level, honestly.
3. That's fair.
4. Pretty good, we have no idea how fast Plagues was at the time for this to even be as impressive as you make it to be.

Never exactly said that, so learn to read. Though, I'd say Dooku's claimed cruiser hurling is comparable to Tenebrous' TK feats, if not better.

1. Name me 20 superior TK feats.

2. Perhaps. If so, that's good for Cade.

3.

4. Yeah, he shortly gets his lightning feat and appearing as a blur to a droid that could dodge blaster bolts. And even prior to this Hego and Rugess were able to fight armies without being hit once. So Plagueis is clearly extremely fast.

5. Dooku's cruiser feat isn't better. Like, at all. Comparable? Maybe.

Yeah, Tenebrous' as he's presented in the novel is a Force user who can accomplish high-tier feats with little to no strain. The idea that this is a basis for lowballing him is clinically retarded.

But naturally DC is just being facetious, he can't be that stupid.

So after decades... people finally begin to understand why Palpatine is the 'most powerful Sith Lord'.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah, Tenebrous' as he's presented in the novel is a Force user who can accomplish high-tier feats with little to no strain.

No, sweetie, it's not all that "high-tier" or at least feats worth sharing extremely close parity with Plagues and the likes, when guys like Cade and Dooku's has pulled feats of more than comparable magnitude with equally little restraint.

C'mon babe, I'm pretty sure you're a bit better than this.

Half of Tenebrous' accomplishments directly outperform Plagueis in the very novel you numpty.

But nah, Cade and Dooku are two of the most powerful Force wielders in mythos (and more consistently capable than the likes of Kyp by a comical number of kilometers), so using the fact they could feasibly accomplish Tenebrous' low showings is a terrible terrible argument with the intellectual stock of a Carthage clone.

I think its time to retire DC, or at the very least, go back to debating TOR trash where they spoon feed you with eli88t accolades super stronk feats. Assessing this characters capabilities is proving too much of a challenge for you.

Umm, not...really? Plagueis is better at more or less everything, sans a few exceptions.



Both should be in ragdoll range of top-tiers of the mythos where Tene should be, and both have feats that suggest they could replicate his showings. Anyway It's not a matter of whether he's on their level, he's a bit above, and I've gone on record at least given Tenebrous that much credit, only his feats doesn't supersede theirs by the amount someone on his level should.




Anyway, I'm just gonna debate this with the superior Nova, and not further waste my day off with you. Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Umm, not...really? Plagueis is better at more or less everything, sans a few exceptions.He was directly outperformed in speed and barrier by Tenebrous yeah.

So? You realise this is also the case for Sidious, Yoda and the like?

There is no should about it lel. Tenebrous is under no obligation from a storytelling perspective to display the full of extent of his power within the pithy set of chapters he appears in. But that doesn't preclude the reader from making broader inferences by applying a little thing called critical thinking. The central issue here being that you are devoid of this rather entirely. My suggestion is, get a clue.

Superior to you yeah, pretty much everyone on here is these days, so have fun getting another buttblasting.

Damn.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He was directly outperformed in speed and barrier by Tenebrous yeah.
Years before his prime.

Deronn, finish our Tenebrous debate first before starting another one. uhuh

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Years before his prime. In which he's already attributed a large number of impressive feats and evidence suggests he made for the most part only minimal gains over the period.

This argument has gotten a little tedious and I think we've lost sight of our original positions so it might be helpful to go back to that.

My interpretation of the quote is that the Sith's general capabilities in areas such as combat, manipulation, stealth, and other areas relevant to their interests increased with each generation, as they gained knowledge, because of the increased knowledge which lead to them possessing more effective ways of achieving their ends. To keep it short, as their knowledge increased, their capacity to achieve their ends increased.

Are you arguing that my interpretation doesn't make sense, because it would be unnecessary to clarify that their knoweldge lead to increased capabilities, because they would only be seeking knowledge in the first place if it by rule always did?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nope, it says nothing specific about plans as previously discussed, and in that respect would clarify nothing.

But we're examining whether my interpretation is a sensible reading, so we're assuming that it's talking about capabilities relevant to their plans when analysing it.



This really doesn't follow at all. One of the RoT's definable characteristics is that they're incredibly patient and willing to see results years after carrying out their schemes. It fits completely with their methodology that they would be willing to carry out a plan that has no guarantee of results, provided it could work and that it fits in place of a general strategy that they believe could work.

And their knowledge wouldn't have to have been increasing their capabilities every generation for them to believe that.

The quote's massively out of date anyway.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
This argument has gotten a little tedious and I think we've lost sight of our original positions so it might be helpful to go back to that.

My interpretation of the quote is that the Sith's general capabilities in areas such as combat, manipulation, stealth, and other areas relevant to their interests increased with each generation, as they gained knowledge, because of the increased knowledge which lead to them possessing more effective ways of achieving their ends. To keep it short, as their knowledge increased, their capacity to achieve their ends increased.

Are you arguing that my interpretation doesn't make sense, because it would be unnecessary to clarify that their knoweldge lead to increased capabilities, because they would only be seeking knowledge in the first place if it by rule always did?That increased capability in the subject follows on from knowledge of it, and if here it did not, they would not be gathering it yes.

No just relevant. It needn't apply to their plans to be deemed relevant. There are a number of other ways in which knowledge of the dark side could be considered useful, even if all it amounts to is scholarly interest. None of which is clearly defined by the source.

The only way gathering any and all knowledge of the dark side could fail to net results is through sheer incompetence lol. Nonetheless its also implicit in and outside of the source material that there efforts were successful, since the Order was itself, a success.

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
The quote's massively out of date anyway. Source books don't have expiry dates. And no knew information contradicts it. Nonetheless it's reaffirmed by F&D.

Originally posted by Azronger
Deronn, finish our Tenebrous debate first before starting another one. uhuh

It's my day off, so maybe I'll get to it later today.

No promises though, I'm trying stunt on a few bitches, tbh.

So even if they had a history of benefitting from such knowledge, but didn't always, they would have no reason to gather it?



I'm not talking about whether they were in fact successful or not, I'm talking about whether they would in principle have to be, as your claim is that it necessarily follows that they were.



The reality is that they lose their credibility when the universe becomes drastically different from the one they were representing. Works detailing the ROT's philosophy have come out since then that are themselves now massively out of date.



Proof that this is Legends canon?

Originally posted by S W LeGenD
So even if they had a history of benefitting from such knowledge, but didn't always, they would have no reason to gather it?No? That's not what I said. I said that if it wasn't proving effective, they wouldn't have done it over millenia.

Well that's the point, there is no logic behind it being unsuccessful. So its redundant to point it out.

In what way have things become drastically different? Like I said, there are no contradictions.

It covers Legends material.

1. You clearly did.
2. But there is logic behind it being unsuccessful as I've explained; we were discussing whether in reality it was successful.
3. The amount of EU that's been released since then has been immense, the prequels still hadn't been completed, we've seen a lot of the relevant members of the ROT in action and we've been able to go right into the mind of the person who founded the order. You need to realise that one of the primary purposes of a guidebook is to compile information that already exists. It naturally becomes less credible as time goes by.
4. As well as new canon material in a game that allows its players to play in a world that contains elements of both. By doing that, it essentially creates a world that is distinct from both Legends canon and new canon. The material in an RPG is canon with respect to the world it allows the players to explore, which in this case is not the Legends one.

1. A history of benefitting from gathering knowledge of the dark side but not always is not the same as it being a useless endeavour.
2. And I've explained why that logic is dysfunctional yeah.
3. You haven't explained what's drastically changed that would make this source redundant, expanding on the details of the order is not equivalent to that.
4. The sourcebook acts as a resource on how to intepret Legends & Canon content yeah. Those are the only categories that exist at present.

1. You appeared to be saying that they wouldn't be gathering it at all if increased knowledge as a rule didn't always lead to increased capabilities. But anyway, you surely see that having a history of benefitting from gathered knowledge =/= continuing to benefit from it with each new generation? So it wouldn't be redundant to clarify that in this case it did.
2. Have not..
3. It just wasn't as meaningful a statement before the order had been explored in more detail. It's not that anything contradicts it as it is that there is stuff that questions its significance.
4. The point is that sourcebooks only double up as canon reference books when they are actually based on the canon universe. This one is based on a weird hybrid universe that only exists for the purposes of the game.

Bumping this in light of new (maybe not new but unmentioned at least) evidence supporting the notion that the Banites grew stronger in the Force with each generation. Upon skimming through Darth Plagueis again, I noticed this:



-Darth Sidious to Darth Plagueis

If the apprentice is stronger than the master, then that implies he/she defeated him/her in single combat, or came stronger regardless even if they did not. Plagueis and Sidious would certainly have a great knowledge of their order's history to accurately make such a statement, don't you agree?

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
You know that Bane himself describes the "true power of the dark side" as cunning, manipulation, ... right?

Lol

Suffice it to say that until more is brought to the table I think we can rule this out as wishful thinking.

By that I mean this silly fanon theory, not this thread.

Regardless of how each master met their demise, an array of sources tell us that each generation became more powerful than the last. There's no dispute. You're in denial if you think otherwise.

I mean, the entire premise of the Rule of Two was that the Sith were waiting for one who would be strong enough to bring them back to power, which is exactly who Sidious was (a fact also stated in numerous sources).

Sources that aren't LeGenDs-canon or do not necessarily tell us that at all (see my argument with Beni)?



That really wasn't the premise of the ROT at all but regardless, it would have required a lot more strength to bring them back to power during Bane's time, so that doesn't conclusively prove anything. The strength required to achieve a goal varies with how hard that goal is to achieve at the given time: Sidious was strong enough to achieve that goal partly because the work the ROT had carried out for hundreds of years made it a lot easier for him.

What sources aren't Legends canon? There's certainly sources from within Legends Canon that say as much.

Actually, yes, the entire premise of the RoT was to eventually produce a Sith strong enough to exact their revenge. That the work of the Banite Sith was cumulative doesn't detract from that, nor does it detract from Sidious being the strongest of the Banite Sith Lords.

One of the sources provided was Force and Destiny, which isn't Legends canon. The other did not establish your position at all.

The premise of the ROT wasn't merely to wait for a single individual, it was to both build power (which including things such as growing a network of spies and developing proficiencies in skills such as assassination and manipulation) and weaken and destabilize the Republic/Jedi (by, for example, putting schemes in place that would pay dividends decades later), and essentially to create the conditions that would enable them to achieve their goal. You're massively simplifying it if you wish to claim that it was just about waiting for a certain individual, and that the work they did solely contributed to making each new generation of Sith more powerful in the Force.

How is Force & Destiny not Legends? It refers to Legends-specific events, to be sure. And here are the quotes:









Regarding your second point, those are just things that were to be worked towards by each generation. The ideal final product of the Rule of Two was one Sith Lord who would be powerful enough to return the Sith to power and glory.

Mastery over the dark side was always the central goal yeah, everything else can be seen as a by product of that.

And there is no third world/continuity. That's fanon lol.