Orion (grounded) vs Wolverine/Sabertooth/Spiderman

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carver9
Orion is grounded and have nothing but his physical stats versus these three. This is adamantium weapon X Creed.

No bfr.

Flyattractor
Orion Curb Stomps and uses both Little Jimmy and Sabes coprses to pummel Spidey to Death.

TethAdamTheRock
Orion

Galan007
Ask yourself: can this team contend with Superman physically... On any level? If not, then they lose here, because Orion can(and has) fought Superman quite a few times, and is undoubtedly in his ballpark physically(albeit slightly weaker.) Heck, Orion has even physically stalemated a sun-amped Superman, for what it's worth. smile


Anywho, Orion stomps. thumb up

carver9
Originally posted by Galan007
Ask yourself: can this team contend with Superman physically... On any level? If not, then they lose here, because Orion can(and has) fought Superman quite a few times, and is undoubtedly in his ballpark physically(albeit slightly weaker.) Heck, Orion has even physically stalemated a sun-amped Superman, for what it's worth. smile


Anywho, Orion stomps. thumb up

Superman was holding back.

Galan007
Here a 'grounded' Orion stalemates Superman:
https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34692193_2731430.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34692194_8436443.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34692195_7113915.jpg https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34692196_4394530.jpg


And not long before entering the fray, this is where Superman was chilling:
https://s6d8.turboimg.net/t1/34692192_674814.jpg


It's a great feat for Orion, but he's typically just portrayed in Superman's ballpark... Which puts him WELL above the fodder team you've assembled here. smile

celeyhyga17
O'Ryan

Faceless808
Originally posted by carver9
Superman was holding back.


Nope, it was "Green Scar" Superman, who we all know, doesn't hold back. eek!

carver9
Originally posted by Faceless808
Nope, it was "Green Scar" Superman, who we all know, doesn't hold back. eek!

Damn..you got a point.

Faceless808
Originally posted by carver9
Damn..you got a point.

LMAO! You're alright, Carver! thumb up

carthage
Orion

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
I'm shocked that people are actually participating in a thread like this. Hilarious.

psycho gundam
"Started by: Carver9"

Delta1938
Carter must have died a little inside from this.

StiltmanFTW
Orion gets murdered.

Delta1938
Wolverine is still dead.

spetznaz
Originally posted by carver9
Superman was holding back.

Thing is, even if Superman was holding back Orion is still miles above the three.

cdtm
Looks like this is decided for Orion, but for the holdouts (Carver), remember Orion's pretty speedy for a brick.

Catch a bullet and toss it back into the gun that fired it while his eyeballs are ripped out speedy. And then blitz up and down a dozen or so men in a large buildng (complete with streak effects)

Delta1938
Originally posted by cdtm
Looks like this is decided for Orion, but for the holdouts (Carver), remember Orion's pretty speedy for a brick.

Catch a bullet and toss it back into the gun that fired it while his eyeballs are ripped out speedy. And then blitz up and down a dozen or so men in a large buildng (complete with streak effects)

And fought Darkseid at super speed, and while incoherent and barely conscious, going on instinct, took out a bunch of Dog Soldiers too fast to be seen.

carver9
Originally posted by cdtm
Looks like this is decided for Orion, but for the holdouts (Carver), remember Orion's pretty speedy for a brick.

Catch a bullet and toss it back into the gun that fired it while his eyeballs are ripped out speedy. And then blitz up and down a dozen or so men in a large buildng (complete with streak effects)

Lol at catching bullets.

Ize19
Judging from the scans Galan posted, and the speed feats CDTM quoted, it sounds like "grounded" Orion isn't a match for Superman in speed. In fact, judging by those feats, he'd have his hands full with any two of this team, let alone all three. While he certainly has impressive durability, Wolverine and Sabretooth have the perfect weapons to bypass it, and Spider-man is the ideal guy to temporarily immobilize/slow him down for them. Taking into account Wolverine's experience working as a team with both of these guys, Spider-man's ability to stay out of danger, and Wolverine and Sabretooth's ability to recover from any early mistakes, I say the team takes the majority here.

abhilegend
Orion oneshots all three. C'mon, this is Dog of War we are talking about.

Ize19
Originally posted by abhilegend
Orion oneshots all three. C'mon, this is Dog of War we are talking about.

Fully equipped? Yeah, he stomps. Stripped like this? That's giving these guys too little respect.

h1a8
Originally posted by Ize19
Fully equipped? Yeah, he stomps. Stripped like this? That's giving these guys too little respect. He can literally one shot each character.

If you disagree, then which character do you feel Orion can't one shot?

Ize19
Originally posted by h1a8
He can literally one shot each character.

If you disagree, then which character do you feel Orion can't one shot?

Either Sabes or Wolverine can take at least a couple of shots, though a blitz or a blindside will put both down, and Spidey can avoid him, play the long distance annoyance, and create chances for his teammates.

DarkSaint85
Wwh, trying to give wolverine brain damage, couldn't one shot him.

Flyattractor
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wwh, trying to give wolverine brain damage, couldn't one shot him.

Yes but only because of PIS/CIS/WIS.

deathslash
I think the team takes this. Logan might hate Creed but they know each other's strong points and have worked together before and Logan and Spidey have a long history of team ups. Parker, his webs, and his banter can make for a sufficient distraction while Creed and Logan go to work.

It's also kind of suprising to see some people in this thread act like Logan and Creed haven't taken hits from bricks and other characters of similar strength and keep going. Logan alone has what, like ten times that he's evenly fought the hulk without getting oneshotted?

Ize19
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Yes but only because of PIS/CIS/WIS.

It's an established part of his character, and is consistent with how Marvel views the character. Ragnarok couldn't one-shot him, Thor couldn't, Skarr couldn't, Wonderman couldn't. At some point you have to stop sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "PIS! PIS!" and accept that he's not at the same power level as his 1974 debut fight with the Hulk.

Flyattractor
Yes. I will agree that FAN WANKERY is a VERY Large part of Little Jimmy's character. It also means over using the HF lets his writers be VERY lazy when writing his stories.

deathslash
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Yes. I will agree that FAN WANKERY is a VERY Large part of Little Jimmy's character. It also means over using the HF lets his writers be VERY lazy when writing his stories. You can't ignore all of his top tier showings. It'd be one thing if he only had four or five showings against top tier A listers and bricks, but he likely has upwards of 100.

Ize19
Originally posted by Flyattractor
Yes. I will agree that FAN WANKERY is a VERY Large part of Little Jimmy's character. It also means over using the HF lets his writers be VERY lazy when writing his stories.

Which has... what to do with his capabilities? This thread isn't "Orion vs Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-Man, which side is better written?". Not that I agree with you, of course, it's just an irrelevant insult meant to distract from the fact that your dismissal of his feat as PIS is in no way connected to reality.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Fully equipped? Yeah, he stomps. Stripped like this? That's giving these guys too little respect.

So, do you think Superman loses in the same scenario?

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
So, do you think Superman loses in the same scenario?

Superman is much faster than a stripped Orion, with a much wider range of abilities. Strictly melee, and within their speed range? Yeah, he'd lose that.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by Ize19
Superman is much faster than a stripped Orion, with a much wider range of abilities. Strictly melee, and within their speed range? Yeah, he'd lose that.

FILTHY LIES!!!

abhilegend
Originally posted by Ize19
Fully equipped? Yeah, he stomps. Stripped like this? That's giving these guys too little respect.
Uh, what? No, he wouldn't.

This is not Spider-Man we are talking about.
Originally posted by Ize19
Superman is much faster than a stripped Orion, with a much wider range of abilities. Strictly melee, and within their speed range? Yeah, he'd lose that.
laughing out loud

Create a Superman vs these three thread and see how you will get ripped apart.

Ize19
Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh, what? No, he wouldn't.

This is not Spider-Man we are talking about.

laughing out loud

Create a Superman vs these three thread and see how you will get ripped apart.

I saw how that would go down with the Thor vs Gorgon and Omega Red fight. Still feel we won, seeing how Rage "accepted" my battlezone challenge, then quietly dropped it when we tried to set it up in pms.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by Ize19
Which has... what to do with his capabilities? This thread isn't "Orion vs Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-Man, which side is better written?". Not that I agree with you, of course, it's just an irrelevant insult meant to distract from the fact that your dismissal of his feat as PIS is in no way connected to reality.

https://m.popkey.co/4127ad/DeYwq.gif

abhilegend
Originally posted by Ize19
I saw how that would go down with the Thor vs Gorgon and Omega Red fight. Still feel we won, seeing how Rage "accepted" my battlezone challenge, then quietly dropped it when we tried to set it up in pms.
We are not talking about puny Thor and puny thorbags like rage here. Superman is another beast altogether and I'm not rage.

Anyway, Orion punches Wolverine and drives him through Earth like a tent peg and then brutalizes creed and Parker.

Ize19
Originally posted by abhilegend
We are not talking about puny Thor and puny thorbags like rage here. Superman is another beast altogether and I'm not rage.

Anyway, Orion punches Wolverine and drives him through Earth like a tent peg and then brutalizes creed and Parker.

I'm not sure what it is about bricks and speedsters that makes so many comic book fans so emotional. The very idea that somebody who's weaker/slower than their opponent could actually have the toolset to achieve victory stirs up this rage...

Then while Orion is still trying to hit Spider-man, Sabretooth claws Wolverine out, and they use hit and run tactics to chip away at him until he slows down enough for one of them to put the finisher through his brain.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Ize19
I'm not sure what it is about bricks and speedsters that makes so many comic book fans so emotional. The very idea that somebody who's weaker/slower than their opponent could actually have the toolset to achieve victory stirs up this rage...


Toolset to win is one thing. Actually beating a top tier is another.

This is not Namor or Thing we are talking about. You're in big leagues now.

And who said I'm angry?

You are assuming Orion is slower than Spidey or he hits Wolverine some 50 feet in the ground?

laughing out loud

Orion is faster than all three put together. Not even Lightray who can move eight times faster than Light can evade Orion.

http://imgur.com/a/OUF7W

Like I said, you're not talking about Thor anymore.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by abhilegend

Orion is faster than all three put together. Not even Lightray who can move eight times faster than Light can evade Orion.

http://imgur.com/a/OUF7W



Where in that scene was this shown

Ize19
Originally posted by abhilegend
Toolset to win is one thing. Actually beating a top tier is another.

This is not Namor or Thing we are talking about. You're in big leagues now.

And who said I'm angry?

You are assuming Orion is slower than Spidey or he hits Wolverine some 50 feet in the ground?

laughing out loud

Orion is faster than all three put together. Not even Lightray who can move eight times faster than Light can evade Orion.

http://imgur.com/a/OUF7W

Like I said, you're not talking about Thor anymore.

I didn't see him moving anywhere near light speed when Orion attacked him. Just cause he can achieve that speed during flight isn't proof that he's that fast in combat, and certainly not that he's harder to hit than Spider-man.

Zack M
Orion also displayed super speed in Simonsons run. All three get one-shotted.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
Orion also displayed super speed in Simonsons run. All three get one-shotted.

Not super speed! Anything but that! Why, this contextless, baseless statement has completely sapped my will to fight! Naw, I still say he gets his brains clawed out.

Zack M
Simonson stated that his fight with Darkseid is similar to DBZ fights, in that they were using super speed. Orion wins.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
Simonson stated that his fight with Darkseid is similar to DBZ fights, in that they were using super speed. Orion wins.

So I went to his respect thread to see if I could actually look at this fight, but they were posted with imageshack. Do you have scans?

abhilegend
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Where in that scene was this shown
Shown what? Originally posted by Ize19
I didn't see him moving anywhere near light speed when Orion attacked him. Just cause he can achieve that speed during flight isn't proof that he's that fast in combat, and certainly not that he's harder to hit than Spider-man.
Seriously? What's next Flash isn't harder to hit than Spider-Man?

Here, he blitzes an entire star fleet.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139323/3492624-astroforceblitzesfleet.jpg

Another blitz on foot.

http://imgur.com/a/O8WG7

Superspeed again.

http://i.imgur.com/oKFV0eb.jpg

Here is a whole issue of fight against Darkseid where they both fought a MA fight in Superspeed.

http://imgur.com/a/Bq3yg

Are you telling me he can't catch Spider-Man?

Ize19
Originally posted by abhilegend
Shown what?
Seriously? What's next Flash isn't harder to hit than Spider-Man?

Here, he blitzes an entire star fleet.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139323/3492624-astroforceblitzesfleet.jpg

Another blitz on foot.

http://imgur.com/a/O8WG7

Superspeed again.

http://i.imgur.com/oKFV0eb.jpg

Here is a whole issue of fight against Darkseid where they both fought a MA fight in Superspeed.

http://imgur.com/a/Bq3yg

Are you telling me he can't catch Spider-Man?

All of those feats were performed with the harness, with the exception of him outspeeding the little girl. Are you saying his speed is equal without the harness? If it is, I concede the speed argument.

Zack M
Don't forget the Mr. Miracle instance. Orion was trying to catch Scott (Without the harness), but failed to do so. Scott has a specialty at getting away, so...

cdtm
Only the first scan had the harness.

Ize19
Originally posted by cdtm
Only the first scan had the harness.

I'm not an expert on his character. That chestplate isn't the harness? Then I stand corrected.

cdtm
Yeah, that's just armor. Harness is always golden.

Zack M
Nope. Not the harness.

Ize19
Originally posted by cdtm
Yeah, that's just armor. Harness is always golden.

Cool. I was fooled because in the original scans of "grounded" Orion, he didn't have the harness or the armor. My bad. If he's capable of fighting at light speed, then yeah, he blitzes the team and knocks them out before they can do anything. Still doesn't "one-shot" them, but doesn't struggle either.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Cool. I was fooled because in the original scans of "grounded" Orion, he didn't have the harness or the armor. My bad. If he's capable of fighting at light speed, then yeah, he blitzes the team and knocks them out before they can do anything. Still doesn't "one-shot" them, but doesn't struggle either.

He had some armor that he normally didn't have for that fight, no indication it did more than provide protection. The fight with Darkseid was agreed to be just hand-to-hand(and was until Darkseid broke the rules at the end). One of Darkseid's few speed feats was moving so fast Pre-DOS Superman didn't even see him move.

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
He had some armor that he normally didn't have for that fight, no indication it did more than provide protection. The fight with Darkseid was agreed to be just hand-to-hand(and was until Darkseid broke the rules at the end). One of Darkseid's few speed feats was moving so fast Pre-DOS Superman didn't even see him move.

Wasn't that the same armor no had in the scene where he blitzes Delta Patrol? Whenever I see him pictured, that seems to be his standard uniform?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Wasn't that the same armor no had in the scene where he blitzes Delta Patrol? Whenever I see him pictured, that seems to be his standard uniform?

In the Delta Patrol one. I also checked, he was actually in a coma when he did that. So, he basically blitzed them while sleep walking.

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
In the Delta Patrol one. I also checked, he was actually in a coma when he did that. So, he basically blitzed them while sleep walking.

confused You didn't respond to my question...

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
confused You didn't respond to my question...

"In the Delta Patrol one" was meant as that's the armor.

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
"In the Delta Patrol one" was meant as that's the armor.

Ok, but my question was really, isn't that standard armor? Or did he just keep it for a little while, cause I usually see him pictured with it on.

Looking at the scans of his fight against Darkseid again, it does look like he's flying. Does that mean he's using the Astro force, simply sans harness? Cause if so, going by these stips, he's stripped of that too, right?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, but my question was really, isn't that standard armor? Or did he just keep it for a little while, cause I usually see him pictured with it on.

Looking at the scans of his fight against Darkseid again, it does look like he's flying. Does that mean he's using the Astro force, simply sans harness? Cause if so, going by these stips, he's stripped of that too, right?

It was something he had from the issue before until a while later.

He wasn't flying, he was jumping. The lines that probably make you think flight were to indicate that they were moving at super speed. Orion was jumping. He didn't have the Astro-Harness for the majority of the series. Those same lines were used in other places, where he had no armor(and was dressed like a street bum), as well, if you're trying to argue the armor is the harness.

EDIT: Here's Orion later on when he couldn't use the Astro-Harness using other equipment to fly, while wearing that armor.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_ORION11-PG01.jpg

Zack M
Here was the Mr. Miracle incident I was talking about:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/ON_zpsr7y96j2u.jpg

Sin I AM
Originally posted by abhilegend
Shown what?



That he outreacted LR

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
It was something he had from the issue before until a while later.

He wasn't flying, he was jumping. The lines that probably make you think flight were to indicate that they were moving at super speed. Orion was jumping. He didn't have the Astro-Harness for the majority of the series. Those same lines were used in other places, where he had no armor(and was dressed like a street bum), as well, if you're trying to argue the armor is the harness.

EDIT: Here's Orion later on when he couldn't use the Astro-Harness using other equipment to fly, while wearing that armor.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_ORION11-PG01.jpg

No, different argument. Supposedly the Astro force is something he can access without the harness, it just makes it easier to control. And jumping doesn't account for all of it, especially when there's not just lines, but aura, or when he's traveling in a straight line, no arc, feet off the ground. Doesn't "grounding" him remove these speed feats from his record?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
No, different argument. Supposedly the Astro force is something he can access without the harness, it just makes it easier to control. And jumping doesn't account for all of it, especially when there's not just lines, but aura, or when he's traveling in a straight line, no arc, feet off the ground. Doesn't "grounding" him remove these speed feats from his record?

I don't know of any instances of him trying to fly the way you're arguing. In fact, if he could fly like you're arguing, why did the same writer have him use non-standard equipment to fly when he didn't have the Astro-Harness? More than once in the storyline. He also was incapable of accessing the Astro-Force in the delta patrol example, and there's a few other times of him using speed when he couldn't access the Astro-Force.

carver9
Originally posted by abhilegend
Shown what?
Seriously? What's next Flash isn't harder to hit than Spider-Man?

Here, he blitzes an entire star fleet.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139323/3492624-astroforceblitzesfleet.jpg

Another blitz on foot.

http://imgur.com/a/O8WG7

Superspeed again.

http://i.imgur.com/oKFV0eb.jpg

Here is a whole issue of fight against Darkseid where they both fought a MA fight in Superspeed.

http://imgur.com/a/Bq3yg

Are you telling me he can't catch Spider-Man?

Wolverine have similar showings than this. Spider-Man have better speed fts than this.

DarkSaint85
They've blitzed entire star fleets?

Scans.

cdtm
Originally posted by Ize19
I'm not sure what it is about bricks and speedsters that makes so many comic book fans so emotional. The very idea that somebody who's weaker/slower than their opponent could actually have the toolset to achieve victory stirs up this rage...

Then while Orion is still trying to hit Spider-man, Sabretooth claws Wolverine out, and they use hit and run tactics to chip away at him until he slows down enough for one of them to put the finisher through his brain.

Slower?

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/1495347-1096508_orion__23___page_17_super.jpg

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/1495348-1096504_orion__23___page_18_super.jpg

carver9
Nice bullet catch. Spiderman was dodging attacks that was coming at him at light speed. He also see bullets in slow motion. As if they are standing still when shot.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by cdtm
Slower?

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/1495347-1096508_orion__23___page_17_super.jpg

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/1495348-1096504_orion__23___page_18_super.jpg

Considering that guns DON'T explode when firing bullets, shows that Orion's bullet was thrown at speeds vastly superior to a normal handgun bullet's.

9mm pistols can withstand a pressure of 38,500PSI without exploding.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Nice bullet catch. Spiderman was dodging attacks that was coming at him at light speed. He also see bullets in slow motion. As if they are standing still when shot.

Lol.

Way to miss the forest for the trees.

The point is that Orion can move so quickly, when he throws a bullet its faster than a normal 9mm bullet, which moves at 1700mph.

Scans of Spiderman and Wolverine blitzing star fleets, please.

deathslash
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They've blitzed entire star fleets?

Scans. wasn't Orion using the harness when he blitzed the star fleet? Does that even count with the stipulations of this thread?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by deathslash
wasn't Orion using the harness when he blitzed the star fleet? Does that even count with the stipulations of this thread?

Not the point, lol.

Carver doesn't read posts, and just throws up verbal diarrhea.

*Someone takes time to find, and posts scans*

*Carver ignores it, and engages his oral Gatling gun of poop*

He literally just skimmed that post, and said Wolverine/Spidey have showings comparable (if not better) than Orion blitzing star fleets in space.

So if he claims that, fair enough. I don't know every comic out there. Maybe there IS a showing from both guys that are comparable/better.

So show me.

Moreover, he's the OP. So he made a thread, but when people come in and actually engage, he ignores it.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm shocked that people are actually participating in a thread like this. Hilarious.

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't know of any instances of him trying to fly the way you're arguing. In fact, if he could fly like you're arguing, why did the same writer have him use non-standard equipment to fly when he didn't have the Astro-Harness? More than once in the storyline. He also was incapable of accessing the Astro-Force in the delta patrol example, and there's a few other times of him using speed when he couldn't access the Astro-Force.

Where did it say he was incapable of accessing the Astro-force in the Delta Patrol scan? I didn't see that stated anywhere. Anyway, if he couldn't access it against Darkseid, explain these scenes:

http://i.imgur.com/dcmrZ9Dm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1NvjyzKm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/4Lg6MmCm.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
Slower?

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/1495347-1096508_orion__23___page_17_super.jpg

https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27500/1495348-1096504_orion__23___page_18_super.jpg

You misread me. I wasn't saying Orion was slower than them, I was saying that here on KMC, people think that being stronger or faster is an automatic victory, even when a character has other skills to compensate.

In this instance, while Orion without flight may be (I say may because his non Astro-force feats, including the Delta Patrol one, have not been out of the teams league so far) faster than any of these characters, right now it doesn't seem that he's so fast he can handle all three of them without problems.

And the impressive speed feat there is the bullet catch, Spider-man has an equivalent bullet reaction feat where he didn't know about the bullet until it had nearly hit him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Considering that guns DON'T explode when firing bullets, shows that Orion's bullet was thrown at speeds vastly superior to a normal handgun bullet's.

9mm pistols can withstand a pressure of 38,500PSI without exploding.

Yes, it's a very impressive strength feat. Don't see how throwing a bullet really hard and fast is the same as achieving those speeds yourself though.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Ize19

Yes, it's a very impressive strength feat. Don't see how throwing a bullet really hard and fast is the same as achieving those speeds yourself though.

Try throwing something really hard, with all your strength.

But slowly.

The bullet that Orion threw has no engine. Therefore, it was at its FASTEST when it left his hand. Then slowed down due to air resistance.

And even after leaving his hand, and travelling a short distance, it still had enough kinetic energy to blow a gun up.

Ergo, his hands were travelling at insane speeds.

Ize19
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Try throwing something really hard, with all your strength.

But slowly.

The bullet that Orion threw has no engine. Therefore, it was at its FASTEST when it left his hand. Then slowed down due to air resistance.

And even after leaving his hand, and travelling a short distance, it still had enough kinetic energy to blow a gun up.

Ergo, his hands were travelling at insane speeds.

So Nolan Ryan is capable of punching someone at 100 mph? I don't think so.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Ize19
So Nolan Ryan is capable of punching someone at 100 mph? I don't think so.

http://www.topendsports.com/sport/baseball/physics.htm

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-670027.html

Nolan's hands (or at least, his fingers) are indeed moving at 100mph. If he made a fist, and made the same motion as he does when pitching, it would be a ~100mph punch.

Edit: I edited my post to add some caveats. But the principle remains the same. At the moment of release, a part of this Nolan's body is moving at 100mph.

Ize19
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://www.topendsports.com/sport/baseball/physics.htm

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-670027.html

Nolan's hands (or at least, his fingers) are indeed moving at 100mph. If he made a fist, and made the same motion as he does when pitching, it would be a 100mph punch.

Nope, read your sources. They say the fingers have to reach such speed, but the hands are moving slower, the arm even slower, and the torso slowest. So, great speed feat for Orions fingers, thanks!

Edit: Saw your edit. It's the same principle, but applied to a much smaller scale. Unless he's extending his fingers and using them like whips, I fail to see how this is proof of him attacking with supersonic speed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Ize19
Nope, read your sources. They say the fingers have to reach such speed, but the hands are moving slower, the arm even slower, and the torso slowest. So, great speed feat for Orions fingers, thanks!

So let's head back to our numbers.

Bullets from 9mm guns travel at 1700mph.

They do not make guns explode.

So let's say the bullet thrown by Orion was travelling at 2000mph.

His fingers are travelling at 2000mph.

His hands are less than this. His arms, less still.

But, how much less? Is Nolan's hand that much slower than his fingers? I would hazard no.

So Orion's punches are now travelling at what, 1900mph? 1800? Still pretty damn fast.

abhilegend
Are we still on the same old "Nobody can win against Wolverine without speed" shit?

Hey Ize, would you open a thread about Superman vs Wolverine, Sabretooth and Spider-Man or I should?

LordofBrooklyn
To, Ize19, why are you so vehement in your stance when you are so ignorant of Orion?

Ize19
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So let's head back to our numbers.

Bullets from 9mm guns travel at 1700mph.

They do not make guns explode.

So let's say the bullet thrown by Orion was travelling at 2000mph.

His fingers are travelling at 2000mph.

His hands are less than this. His arms, less still.

But, how much less? Is Nolan's hand that much slower than his fingers? I would hazard no.

So Orion's punches are now travelling at what, 1900mph? 1800? Still pretty damn fast.

Pretty damn fast, but not outside the range of things Spider-man or Wolverine have reacted to.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
To, Ize19, why are you so vehement in your stance when you are so ignorant of Orion?

I'm not, in fact, at one point I was willing to concede. I'm not ignorant on Wolverine, Sabertooth, or Spider-man, and I'm not willing to let them be dismissed unfairly. Far too often over the years, I've seen wins be handed to people who had no business getting them, just because posters were besotted with their strength.

If Orion is actually Superman level speed in a straight up fight, I've made my opinion clear: he wins. However, I've seen in Thor threads and Spider-man threads I've been a part of in the past, people love to post scans, claim they're showing these amazing feats, and it's so often exaggerated it's crazy.

All I'm asking for is definitive proof Orion really is the physical equal of Superman, even when unaided by equipment or forces he doesn't have in this thread. If he is, he wins. If he's only equal in strength and durability, and mildly faster than Spider-man, the trio takes it.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Ize19
Pretty damn fast, but not outside the range of things Spider-man or Wolverine have reacted to.


And that's me being conservative.

But that kinda speed (at least), backed up by his strength?

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
To, Ize19, why are you so vehement in your stance when you are so ignorant of Orion?

Tbh, seeing your position on anything always makes me question myself.

Zack M
Yeah, the guy already conceded. I give him respect. Not many people do the here.

Btw, Orion in Countdown was powerful enough to blow the JLA away by powering up. This included Superman, Flash. Etc...

This team of street levelers die.

StiltmanFTW
"Mighty" Orion... shifty

https://thanley.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/ww19rip.jpg

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbh, seeing your position on anything always makes me question myself.

I QUESTION WHY YOU WANT TO MEET OBLIVION WITH FOSSIL FONZARELLI AT MY HAND.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Where did it say he was incapable of accessing the Astro-force in the Delta Patrol scan? I didn't see that stated anywhere. Anyway, if he couldn't access it against Darkseid, explain these scenes:

http://i.imgur.com/dcmrZ9Dm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1NvjyzKm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/4Lg6MmCm.jpg



It was later on in the series. He had his own "Unworthy" moment when he started using the Anti-Life Equation. Even before that, things he did showed he was on the path when his Mother Box wouldn't speak to.him. He was using Apokolips equipment because his own gear wasn't working And Orion was literally in a coma in the Delta Patrol feat.

Yeah, the fight was agreed on just being hand-to-hand. Orion didn't use the Astro-Force until Darkseid broke the agreement and used the Omega Beams(at the end of the fight). There isn't anything but a circular argument that he's using the Astro-Force to move at super speed.

carver9
Lol...Darksaint post doesn't make any sense. Orion who is Superman level in strength threw the bullet. The force of his throw from his strength alone should turn a gun into powder. That's not a speed showing.

Delta1938
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
"Mighty" Orion... shifty

https://thanley.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/ww19rip.jpg

vin

http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2014/06/death-of-wolverine-1-mcguinness-mortal-variant-101210.jpg

Delta1938
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...Darksaint post doesn't make any sense. Orion who is Superman level in strength threw the bullet. The force of his throw from his strength alone should turn a gun into powder. That's not a speed showing.

Thought you had DarkSaint on Ignore?

Ize19
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And that's me being conservative.

But that kinda speed (at least), backed up by his strength?


I haven't done the calculations myself, so I don't know how fast that is. I'm willing to admit it's pretty fast, but it also seems like your calc is slightly off. If instead of throwing the bullet, he'd shot one with his own gun right into the barrel, wouldn't the same thing happen? Not in real life, just comics. For instance, I'm thinking of this feat:

http://i.imgur.com/VkwVNf9m.jpg

There the gun is exploded despite the bullet not going any faster than when it was initially fired. So does it really need to exceed the speed of the bullet leaving the gun, if the bullet's going the other direction?

Anyway, that's just me asking a question, even giving the feat as much weight as you are, I'd agree it'd give him the win one-on-one versus any of the team, but all together? If that's the limit of his grounded speed, I'd still give it to them.

Originally posted by Delta1938
It was later on in the series. He had his own "Unworthy" moment when he started using the Anti-Life Equation. Even before that, things he did showed he was on the path when his Mother Box wouldn't speak to.him. He was using Apokolips equipment because his own gear wasn't working And Orion was literally in a coma in the Delta Patrol feat.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, you mentioned that before, pretty badass. How fast was that beast the final patrolman was riding?



Ok, but you still didn't explain why he was clearly flying in those scans I reposted. Just because it's hand to hand, doesn't mean they're limited to ground combat, right? So it wouldn't be breaking the rules to have equipment that enables flight.

And yes, I know this is a different argument, sorry. I was a bit mixed up about what Astro force was before. I just want to fully understand what happened, and so far, your descriptions haven't quite seemed to match up to what I'm seeing in this scene.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...Darksaint post doesn't make any sense. Orion who is Superman level in strength threw the bullet. The force of his throw from his strength alone should turn a gun into powder. That's not a speed showing.

That's because you possess one too many chromosomes.

That doesn't make you an X-man, btw.

Go out and get some tinfoil. Scrunch it up into a ball.

Now throw it, as hard as your retard-Lenny/John Coffey strength allows. Did you hand move quickly....or slowly?

Originally posted by Ize19
I haven't done the calculations myself, so I don't know how fast that is. I'm willing to admit it's pretty fast, but it also seems like your calc is slightly off. If instead of throwing the bullet, he'd shot one with his own gun right into the barrel, wouldn't the same thing happen? Not in real life, just comics. For instance, I'm thinking of this feat:

There the gun is exploded despite the bullet not going any faster than when it was initially fired. So does it really need to exceed the speed of the bullet leaving the gun, if the bullet's going the other direction?

Anyway, that's just me asking a question, even giving the feat as much weight as you are, I'd agree it'd give him the win one-on-one versus any of the team, but all together? If that's the limit of his grounded speed, I'd still give it to them.
thumb up so far, am enjoying the debate with you. As it is WITH you, not AGAINST. Kudos to you.

That scan has him plugging the barrel with an unbreakable mass, which is different from 'reverse-firing', as it were.

Like exploding a toothpaste tube by squeezing it, vs throwing toothpaste into a tube, exploding it.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, you mentioned that before, pretty badass. How fast was that beast the final patrolman was riding?



Ok, but you still didn't explain why he was clearly flying in those scans I reposted. Just because it's hand to hand, doesn't mean they're limited to ground combat, right? So it wouldn't be breaking the rules to have equipment that enables flight.

And yes, I know this is a different argument, sorry. I was a bit mixed up about what Astro force was before. I just want to fully understand what happened, and so far, your descriptions haven't quite seemed to match up to what I'm seeing in this scene.

Don't know how fast the beast was.

I don't see flight at all but acrobatic fighting. But here's the thing. Are you trying to argue them fighting at super speed was all because of some supposed flight equipment? Even if they are using equipment to fly, they're fighting at super speed on the ground too. I'm really not sure where you're going with this unless you think his speed is only due to some flight equipment. In the bullet catching scan, note that between what we see and the narration (a girl witnessing it) didn't even see him move. His back was to the shooter when the shot happened. So are you arguing he did that with flight equipment?

Ize19
Originally posted by DarkSaint85

thumb up so far, am enjoying the debate with you. As it is WITH you, not AGAINST. Kudos to you.

That scan has him plugging the barrel with an unbreakable mass, which is different from 'reverse-firing', as it were.

Like exploding a toothpaste tube by squeezing it, vs throwing toothpaste into a tube, exploding it.

Thanks man, likewise. I always feel debates should be about different sides sharing their perspective until they can see the truth, lol, that sounds corny I know, but it's what I strive for.

Ok, you're right, not the best example. Although, given the difference between a bullet and a bit of toothpaste, and a gun and a tube of toothpaste, perhaps yours wasn't the best choice of metaphors either, eh big grin? Either way, it's still a great feat, and either way, I still don't think it puts him over the team.

I would appreciate your perspective on the Darkseid fight. Am I as seeing what I want, or is he really flying there? It certainly looks that way to me, but maybe I'm crazy.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Don't know how fast the beast was.

I don't see flight at all but acrobatic fighting. But here's the thing. Are you trying to argue them fighting at super speed was all because of some supposed flight equipment? Even if they are using equipment to fly, they're fighting at super speed on the ground too. I'm really not sure where you're going with this unless you think his speed is only due to some flight equipment. In the bullet catching scan, note that between what we see and the narration (a girl witnessing it) didn't even see him move. His back was to the shooter when the shot happened. So are you arguing he did that with flight equipment?

I'm trying to say there's a difference between super speed, and Flash/Superman level super speed. The scan against the Delta Force certainly looked impressive, but we've seen Wolverine, Spider-man, and Sabertooth look just as impressive while blitzing others (granted not while in a coma... don't know how that changes the feat, but it's certainly adds an element of awesome to it).

Same with the bullet catch feat, Spider-man's done the same, also while his back was turned. Even if he is a little faster than them, most of his feats don't seem leagues beyond them, except for their "dbz style fight," and they don't seem to really rev up the speed until they start flying. If that's so, then I don't see how it applies in this grounded fight he's having. Especially if he's using a device to fly, which I believe he generally needs, then you can't use that fight to put him = with Superman's going full out combat speed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Ize19
Thanks man, likewise. I always feel debates should be about different sides sharing their perspective until they can see the truth, lol, that sounds corny I know, but it's what I strive for.

Ok, you're right, not the best example. Although, given the difference between a bullet and a bit of toothpaste, and a gun and a tube of toothpaste, perhaps yours wasn't the best choice of metaphors either, eh big grin? Either way, it's still a great feat, and either way, I still don't think it puts him over the team.

I would appreciate your perspective on the Darkseid fight. Am I as seeing what I want, or is he really flying there? It certainly looks that way to me, but maybe I'm crazy.


No problem!

As for that fight....no idea, lol. Having never read the issue, it seems like he's not flying, but jumping all over the place - but then, I'm not as familiar with Simonson's art style (personally, I dislike it).

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
I'm trying to say there's a difference between super speed, and Flash/Superman level super speed. The scan against the Delta Force certainly looked impressive, but we've seen Wolverine, Spider-man, and Sabertooth look just as impressive while blitzing others (granted not while in a coma... don't know how that changes the feat, but it's certainly adds an element of awesome to it).

Same with the bullet catch feat, Spider-man's done the same, also while his back was turned. Even if he is a little faster than them, most of his feats don't seem leagues beyond them, except for their "dbz style fight," and they don't seem to really rev up the speed until they start flying. If that's so, then I don't see how it applies in this grounded fight he's having. Especially if he's using a device to fly, which I believe he generally needs, then you can't use that fight to put him = with Superman's going full out combat speed.

I didn't argue he was Flash/Superman fast. He doesn't have to be. The delta patrol scans also misses the prior page where he seemed to take a child in the area away too fast to be seen. Being in a coma would at the least make his movements more awkward and clumsy, and at least a bit slower, if we go by people doing "extreme sleep walking." Which is a thing(seen a documentary or two on it). Don't exactly know what the writer intended, but yeah.

Spider-Man has had his back turned, been shot at, and turned around, caught the bullet, and gone back into place so fast it looked like he never moved? Your argument they're flying is based entirely on the assumption that they're flying. There was no mention of them having equipment, so you're basically assuming I have to prove a negative. You also assumed previously it was Orion using Astro-Force. Perhaps you just want to discount this feat? The only thing that really matters is he's fighting Darkseid, and doing fine in speed. One of Darkseid's few speed feats is moving too fast to be seen(as specified) by Byrne era Superman(at the risk of turning this into Superman vs Marvel, while that era of Superman is not as fast now, he was quite fast, I'd think a lot faster than the Marvel guys here).

cdtm
Just want to clear up something:

Orion always wears astro bracelets when he's not using the harness. That'a why he was able to create that shield (after Darkseid fought dirty)

But that doesn't give him the ability to fly, nor imply intent to break the rules himself (Also, Simonson established Orion can summon the harness at any time, even if it's shattered into dust. So in the end, it's his honor that keeps him from using it in the dual, and discarding it was more that it got in the way of h2h combat while bracelets did not..)

leonidas
this is very different from a fight against, say thor. orion has a powerset much better suited to taking out this team. he is fast enough to bfr one (not permanently) and pick them off one at a time that way if he chooses. we've logan's claws be fairly ineffective against thor, and orion's skin would be at least as durable, likely a fair bit MORE durable. he is also an extremely skilled fighter. maybe not as good as logan, depending on which showings you go by, but very highly skilled--moreso than thor in straight h2h. i think the triom in straight h2h, would give thor a....very difficult time. but orion is more skilled on the ground, FAR faster, and is more durable (though damage soak would likely go to thor imo). overall, orion is just too much for these guys.

StiltmanFTW
We've also seen Logan's claws doing significant damage to characters and objects more durable than Thor.

DarkSaint85
Like this, say:

https://lowbrowcomics.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/world_war_hulk_-_x-men_002_007.jpg

Wolverine was BFR'd, but he came back to the battlefield in a short enough time that it's not a forum win. By then, however, his team may be defeated.

Just adding to leo's post. Wolvy (and Sabes') entire fight strategy seems to be 'soak up the hits'.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
this is very different from a fight against, say thor. orion has a powerset much better suited to taking out this team. he is fast enough to bfr one (not permanently) and pick them off one at a time that way if he chooses. we've logan's claws be fairly ineffective against thor, and orion's skin would be at least as durable, likely a fair bit MORE durable. he is also an extremely skilled fighter. maybe not as good as logan, depending on which showings you go by, but very highly skilled--moreso than thor in straight h2h. i think the triom in straight h2h, would give thor a....very difficult time. but orion is more skilled on the ground, FAR faster, and is more durable (though damage soak would likely go to thor imo). overall, orion is just too much for these guys. To add to this, Orion catches bullets from behind while blindfolded - he could just grab Wolverine's arms and use him as a bat to beat the others.

Delta1938
Originally posted by leonidas
this is very different from a fight against, say thor. orion has a powerset much better suited to taking out this team. he is fast enough to bfr one (not permanently) and pick them off one at a time that way if he chooses. we've logan's claws be fairly ineffective against thor, and orion's skin would be at least as durable, likely a fair bit MORE durable. he is also an extremely skilled fighter. maybe not as good as logan, depending on which showings you go by, but very highly skilled--moreso than thor in straight h2h. i think the triom in straight h2h, would give thor a....very difficult time. but orion is more skilled on the ground, FAR faster, and is more durable (though damage soak would likely go to thor imo). overall, orion is just too much for these guys.

On the skill thing, on paper, Orion should be far more skilled than all of them combined. Comics usually don't work out that way with characters like him, though.

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
I didn't argue he was Flash/Superman fast. He doesn't have to be. The delta patrol scans also misses the prior page where he seemed to take a child in the area away too fast to be seen. Being in a coma would at the least make his movements more awkward and clumsy, and at least a bit slower, if we go by people doing "extreme sleep walking." Which is a thing(seen a documentary or two on it). Don't exactly know what the writer intended, but yeah.

Maybe not you, but I've seen it brought up in here. He at least needs to be fast to blitz all three of them before they can react, in order to take the easy victory most are giving him. Again, Wolverine and Spider-Man have had fights where they moved too fast to be seen for extended periods of time. Sometimes, other times being unconscious allows for a trained fighters natural instincts to take over, at least in fiction. It's why I'm having a difficult time quantifying how the coma affects the feat.



That's not what the feat shows. He doesn't turn to catch the bullet, he catches it behind his head, then he turns, takes a couple of moments, the shooter threatens him with the whole clip, and he throws the bullet, exploding the gun. Spider-Man has been shot at from behind, not been aware of it until the bullets were about a foot away, then turned his entire body and caught one of the bullets in the remaining time. I assume moving that fast would be hard to see.

No, my argument that they are flying is based entirely on it appearing in the scans I read that they are flying. I'd never seen the scene before, and when I looked it up, I found some info that wasn't complete.

Right, which is why I mentioned that it seemed like they kicked the speed into high gear in those scans I posted. If they had been going full speed from the beginning, I wouldn't have an argument. But then maybe I don't. If I'm the only one that sees those scans and thinks they're flying, I'm willing to concede I'm reading them wrong.

Zack M
Originally posted by Delta1938
On the skill thing, on paper, Orion should be far more skilled than all of them combined. Comics usually don't work out that way with characters like him, though.

Orion defeated Valkyrie in combat, while in a pacifistic state. And Valkyrie was said to be the greatest martial artist in the universe.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Maybe not you, but I've seen it brought up in here. He at least needs to be fast to blitz all three of them before they can react, in order to take the easy victory most are giving him. Again, Wolverine and Spider-Man have had fights where they moved too fast to be seen for extended periods of time. Sometimes, other times being unconscious allows for a trained fighters natural instincts to take over, at least in fiction. It's why I'm having a difficult time quantifying how the coma affects the feat.

I don't see him needing to blitz them to win. He's more than fast enough to keep up with them, ect. Curious where you've seen it about being unconscious?

Originally posted by Ize19
That's not what the feat shows. He doesn't turn to catch the bullet, he catches it behind his head, then he turns, takes a couple of moments, the shooter threatens him with the whole clip, and he throws the bullet, exploding the gun. Spider-Man has been shot at from behind, not been aware of it until the bullets were about a foot away, then turned his entire body and caught one of the bullets in the remaining time. I assume moving that fast would be hard to see.

laughing That's what I get for posting groggy. But check the scans again, read the narration. He caught it so fast she thought he was shot at first. That would indicate she didn't even see the catching. I don't know the feat to compare, but we've got more than "I assume" to go on Orion moving too fast to be seen. Plus, Spider-Man has Spider-Sense(unless there was context disabling it or whatever?). Even if Spider-Man did the same, it's less impressive, unless Spider-Sense wasn't a factor.

Originally posted by Ize19
No, my argument that they are flying is based entirely on it appearing in the scans I read that they are flying. I'd never seen the scene before, and when I looked it up, I found some info that wasn't complete.

I don't see it as flying. Nobody else has said they seen it. Not doing "appeal to the majority," but it does seem you're the only one who thinks they're flying. What do you mean by "info that wasn't complete?" Maybe I can help.

Originally posted by Ize19
Right, which is why I mentioned that it seemed like they kicked the speed into high gear in those scans I posted. If they had been going full speed from the beginning, I wouldn't have an argument. But then maybe I don't. If I'm the only one that sees those scans and thinks they're flying, I'm willing to concede I'm reading them wrong.

There were moments they weren't moving as fast, but I don't see any narration or anything of ever increasing speed. Not that they couldn't be, but there's not really much shown beyond speed lines or no speed lines. Since we also see instances of them moving like that when on the ground in the fight, the only argument would be that this alleged equipment is giving them their speed. I showed you Orion actually using equipment to fly in the same series. It's not impossible they had some equipment, but I find it highly unlikely if they were fighting this fast because of gear that gives flight that the author didn't make any indication of them having to do this.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Zack M
Orion defeated Valkyrie in combat, while in a pacifistic state. And Valkyrie was said to be the greatest martial artist in the universe.

IIRC he started it in a pacifist state, and the whole point of it was hoping it'd give him back his warrior nature, and it did, and he started winning after it kicked in. But Highfather interrupted it before it was finished. It was a cool scene though, and there was some stuff to give her more than lip service.

krisblaze
Holy shit people are debating this seriously

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't see him needing to blitz them to win. He's more than fast enough to keep up with them, ect. Curious where you've seen it about being unconscious?

Not to win, to win with ease. More than fast enough to keep up with all of them working together, them being an oppenent with limited pre-cog and two of the stealthiest fighters out there?

Actually, that unconscious thing seems to be mostly Japanese. In Hajime no Ippo, both Ippo and Takamura go from losing their fights to beating their opponents when they're knocked unconscious, but still on their feet. In History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Kenichi only manages to fight evenly with his rival Shou Kanou after being knocked unconscious, and all the moves his teachers beat into his body are no longer held back by his morals. There's even a real life example, Japanese Judoka Masahiko Kimura claimed his body once successfully threw his opponent in a sparring match, even after exhaustion had made him lose consciousness:

(The trope is known as Unconscious Objector)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Wrestling/MasahikoKimura

However, it doesn't seem to be a thing in Western comics, so it was just my outside reading coloring the way I saw that scene. My bad.



She is a regular person, right? Not exactly a trained observer. And Spider-man didn't just put his hand behind his head, he actually twisted his whole body in time to make the catch, despite his Spider-sense not alerting him until it was less than a foot away from him. That's pretty damn fast, Spider-sense or no.





When CDTM pointed out that his armor wasn't the harness I looked up what the harness did. It said it allowed him to use the Astro-force, and one of its uses was flying. Then I looked up if he could use the Astro-force without the Harness, and found some claims he could. This led to me jumping the gun and assuming that's what he was doing here, but as I continued to research, I realized that wasn't it.



Well that'd be a trick, since the entire fight was unnarrated, eh? No, I get your point, it was just the scenes of them powering up, then unleashing their speed led me to believe that they were attaining new levels. Of course, going by this logic, when Orion was at his fastest, he was clearly running, as seen by the holes left by his footstomps, so it's clear I had the scene wrong, and I concede the feat.

carver9
The question should be "what would be the results once Sabertooth an claw Orion" because he will get tagged; a lot. Spider-Man webbing to the eyes would leave an opening for a head stab. How would Orion handle this?

Delta1938
Originally posted by Ize19
Not to win, to win with ease. More than fast enough to keep up with all of them working together, them being an oppenent with limited pre-cog and two of the stealthiest fighters out there?

Well, carter didn't specify anything on the battlefield, and going by what Pr and another mod or two have said, that would make a featureless battlefield(being "featureless" isn't specifically said, but Pr said it was what they are). The rules do state they they're half a kilometer facing each other.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html



Of course, it's carter's thread, so he can change it if he wants to protect Wolverine. laughing

But not sure if it'll help them. Orion did this while blind.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Jingles/th_ORION23-PG10.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Jingles/th_ORION23-PG11.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Jingles/th_ORION23-PG12.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Jingles/th_ORION23-PG13.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/Jingles/th_ORION23-PG14.jpg

And what I said earlier about on paper of Orion is a far better fighter than them combined? I wasn't exaggerating. He's at least centuries old, and a "god of BATTLE."

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Comparing/Heroes/Orion/WarGod

Originally posted by Ize19
Actually, that unconscious thing seems to be mostly Japanese. In Hajime no Ippo, both Ippo and Takamura go from losing their fights to beating their opponents when they're knocked unconscious, but still on their feet. In History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Kenichi only manages to fight evenly with his rival Shou Kanou after being knocked unconscious, and all the moves his teachers beat into his body are no longer held back by his morals. There's even a real life example, Japanese Judoka Masahiko Kimura claimed his body once successfully threw his opponent in a sparring match, even after exhaustion had made him lose consciousness:

(The trope is known as Unconscious Objector)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Wrestling/MasahikoKimura

However, it doesn't seem to be a thing in Western comics, so it was just my outside reading coloring the way I saw that scene. My bad.

Ah, thanks.

Originally posted by Ize19
She is a regular person, right? Not exactly a trained observer. And Spider-man didn't just put his hand behind his head, he actually twisted his whole body in time to make the catch, despite his Spider-sense not alerting him until it was less than a foot away from him. That's pretty damn fast, Spider-sense or no.

Yes, but if he did it faster than she could see, it'd still be faster than she could see. And there's other examples, as well, like what I posted above(that happens before the bullet catching scene, but same encounter).

Originally posted by Ize19
When CDTM pointed out that his armor wasn't the harness I looked up what the harness did. It said it allowed him to use the Astro-force, and one of its uses was flying. Then I looked up if he could use the Astro-force without the Harness, and found some claims he could. This led to me jumping the gun and assuming that's what he was doing here, but as I continued to research, I realized that wasn't it.

Oh, ok. I don't know if it's been explained how the Astro-Harness allows him to fly. He can use his gauntlets to access the Astro-Force without the Harness, but I have never seen him use the Astro-Force to fly without the Astro-Harness. Not that it's impossible, I still have yet to read a couple runs Orion was in, but he didn't show it in the ORION series where the Darkseid fight is from. In fact, the scene I showed you with him on flying with those discs under his feet going after Desaad is him with the Astro-Gauntlets but before he couldn't access it.


Originally posted by Ize19
Well that'd be a trick, since the entire fight was unnarrated, eh? No, I get your point, it was just the scenes of them powering up, then unleashing their speed led me to believe that they were attaining new levels. Of course, going by this logic, when Orion was at his fastest, he was clearly running, as seen by the holes left by his footstomps, so it's clear I had the scene wrong, and I concede the feat.

No trick intended, sorry if it came off like that. I don't see anything about "reving up" if you mean going at higher and higher levels of speed as the fight goes on. All I see are either they're moving fast as shown by speed lines, or not. Could they be varying their speed when moving at super speed? Of course. Is there anything indicating this? Well I don't see anything.

cdtm
Originally posted by carver9
The question should be "what would be the results once Sabertooth an claw Orion" because he will get tagged; a lot. Spider-Man webbing to the eyes would leave an opening for a head stab. How would Orion handle this?

*Sees scan of Orion catching bullet then throwing it with pinpoint accuracy., is repeatedly told he's blind while doing it.*

*A page later, argues Spidey could web his eyes.*

cdtm
Originally posted by krisblaze
Holy shit people are debating this seriously

I blame PIS. Writers love to write crazy over the top stuff with popular characters.

I know I sure would, if I had a hellish job like cartooning. "Sure, lets have Batman judo flip Doomsday. Then have him kick over Imperiex Prime. Why not?"

Editorial: "Go away, I'm busy drinking.

I wanted to editor news, dammit."

carver9
Originally posted by cdtm
*Sees scan of Orion catching bullet then throwing it with pinpoint accuracy., is repeatedly told he's blind while doing it.*

*A page later, argues Spidey could web his eyes.*

http://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS?r

Delta1938
Originally posted by carver9
http://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS?r

This guy himself a speedster, or is he referring to his weaponry?

cdtm
Originally posted by carver9
http://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS?r

hrm.

Firing a bullet doesn't make you the speed of sound.

carver9
Originally posted by cdtm
hrm.

Firing a bullet doesn't make you the speed of sound.

True but dodging a light speed attack makes you what? Also, the guy that shot the bullet at Orion doesn't make him as fast as a bullet.

DarkSaint85
What does this have to do with webbing Orion's eyes?

Don't be distracted, people. Carver is dodging as usual.

Delta1938
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What does this have to do with webbing Orion's eyes?

Don't be distracted, people. Carver is dodging as usual.

Spider-Man can't even match carter's dodging.

Bentley
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Orion gets murdered.

You and your Spider-man wanking.

Delta1938
Originally posted by Bentley
You and your Spider-man wanking.

Incorrect. He's also a Wolverine fan.

He has two hands, ya know.

Ize19
Originally posted by Delta1938
Well, carter didn't specify anything on the battlefield, and going by what Pr and another mod or two have said, that would make a featureless battlefield(being "featureless" isn't specifically said, but Pr said it was what they are). The rules do state they they're half a kilometer facing each other.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html



Of course, it's carter's thread, so he can change it if he wants to protect Wolverine. laughing

But not sure if it'll help them. Orion did this while blind.


Well, Wolverine has completely vanished in a featureless environment before:

http://i.imgur.com/sswvVxNm.jpg

Not surprising, since he knows how to stand in plain sight without being seen:

http://i.imgur.com/qTFGpu2m.jpg



Not like Wolverine's never outfought an immortal supernatural being. God of Battle, meet Angel of Death:

http://imgur.com/8StKfpW
http://imgur.com/Nhcokdh
http://imgur.com/MduuVgS
http://imgur.com/t32kMmE
http://imgur.com/3FKAaDm
http://imgur.com/UQFbsS7
http://imgur.com/zQL43bO

It's not an isolated incident either, he's taken him down many times in the past:

http://i.imgur.com/6YlJP43t.jpg



No problem.



Right, but there's doing something faster than an untrained girl can see, and there's moving too fast for full grown Mafia members to see:

http://imgur.com/sOii0cj

Or soldiers specifically trained to take on Meta humans:

http://imgur.com/zqqXrmD
http://imgur.com/j9zBVYN

So you see why that aspect doesn't blow me away.

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
Well, Wolverine has completely vanished in a featureless environment before:

http://i.imgur.com/sswvVxNm.jpg

Not surprising, since he knows how to stand in plain sight without being seen:

http://i.imgur.com/qTFGpu2m.jpg



Not like Wolverine's never outfought an immortal supernatural being. God of Battle, meet Angel of Death:

http://imgur.com/8StKfpW
http://imgur.com/Nhcokdh
http://imgur.com/MduuVgS
http://imgur.com/t32kMmE
http://imgur.com/3FKAaDm
http://imgur.com/UQFbsS7
http://imgur.com/zQL43bO

It's not an isolated incident either, he's taken him down many times in the past:

http://i.imgur.com/6YlJP43t.jpg



No problem.



Right, but there's doing something faster than an untrained girl can see, and there's moving too fast for full grown Mafia members to see:

http://imgur.com/sOii0cj

Or soldiers specifically trained to take on Meta humans:

http://imgur.com/zqqXrmD
http://imgur.com/j9zBVYN

So you see why that aspect doesn't blow me away.

No way that god of battle is in the same tier as Orion.

Look at what he did to the JLA just by powering up:

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/Countdown2p11.jpg
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/varone04/Death%20of%20Darkseid/4.jpg

He's also able to grow in size and destroy a big chunk of Apokolips:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/ON_zpsmzcbgwgj.jpg

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
No way that god of battle is in the same tier as Orion.

Look at what he did to the JLA just by powering up:

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/Countdown2p11.jpg
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb88/varone04/Death%20of%20Darkseid/4.jpg

He's also able to grow in size and destroy a big chunk of Apokolips:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o589/lupinw45/ON_zpsmzcbgwgj.jpg

Neither of those abilities apply in this fight, and Azrael, the Angel of Death, is certainly comparable to Orion in terms of years of experience and fighting knowledge, which is what I was responding to.

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
Neither of those abilities apply in this fight, and Azrael, the Angel of Death, is certainly comparable to Orion in terms of years of experience and fighting knowledge, which is what I was responding to.

How many years experience? How much knowledge?

StiltmanFTW
Golgo, Zack Snyder called. You need to go back to the Movie forum or you won't get paid this month.

Zack M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Golgo, Zack Snyder called. You need to go back to the Movie forum or you won't get paid this month.

I'm not back until June. stick out tongue

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
How many years experience? How much knowledge?

How many years? Millenia:

http://i.imgur.com/cCbZSvfm.jpg

How much knowledge? Enough that Wolverine, who's faced everyone from Shang Chi and Iron Fist, to Mandarin, Ogun, Stick and Gamora, hasn't faced a foe possessing such skill before or since:

http://i.imgur.com/I5vv6Mem.jpg

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
How many years? Millenia:

http://i.imgur.com/cCbZSvfm.jpg

How much knowledge? Enough that Wolverine, who's faced everyone from Shang Chi and Iron Fist, to Mandarin, Ogun, Stick and Gamora, hasn't faced a foe possessing such skill before or since:

http://i.imgur.com/I5vv6Mem.jpg

That's it? New Gods have existed a lot longer.

Orion has knowledge and experience of warfare from across the entire universe.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
That's it? New Gods have existed a lot longer.

Orion has knowledge and experience of warfare from across the entire universe.

Longer than millenia? Prove it.

So does Gamora, Dr. Strange still rated Azrael as the most skilled opponent Wolverine's ever fought.

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
Longer than millenia? Prove it.

So does Gamora, Dr. Strange still rated Azrael as the most skilled opponent Wolverine's ever fought.

In Seven Soldiers, it showed the New Gods arriving on earth before life even existed. Darkseid, for example, had time travel tech thousands of years ago.

Orion faced off, and nearly beaten Valkyrie, who is considered the best MA in the universe. And this was in a pacifist state. He wasn't even trying that hard.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
In Seven Soldiers, it showed the New Gods arriving on earth before life even existed. Darkseid, for example, had time travel tech thousands of years ago.

Orion faced off, and nearly beaten Valkyrie, who is considered the best MA in the universe. And this was in a pacifist state. He wasn't even trying that hard.

And at what point was Orion born? Because from what I've read, he's one of the youngest New Gods. For the record, Angels predate life on Earth too.

Delta already pointed out that he left his pacifist state during that fight, in fact that was the point of it. It's already a great feat, why would you mislead and exaggerate?

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
And at what point was Orion born? Because from what I've read, he's one of the youngest New Gods. For the record, Angels predate life on Earth too.

Delta already pointed out that he left his pacifist state during that fight, in fact that was the point of it. It's already a great feat, why would you mislead and exaggerate?

He wasn't a 100% when they fought, yet still had the edge, from what I remember.

Not sure exactly how old, but definitely older than a thousand years.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
He wasn't a 100% when they fought, yet still had the edge, from what I remember.

Not sure exactly how old, but definitely older than a thousand years.

According to Delta, he only took the edge once he'd become his old self. And was Valkyrie his physical equal? Was Orion said to be her superior in skill? Or are you misapplying the transitive property and attributing what's actually an advantage in fierceness and power to skill instead?

Millenia is thousands of years, millenium is one thousand. Even if Orion is a little older, which I don't think he is, no way he's a lot older than one of God's Archangels.

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
According to Delta, he only took the edge once he'd become his old self. And was Valkyrie his physical equal? Was Orion said to be her superior in skill? Or are you misapplying the transitive property and attributing what's actually an advantage in fierceness and power to skill instead?

Millenia is thousands of years, millenium is one thousand. Even if Orion is a little older, which I don't think he is, no way he's a lot older than one of God's Archangels.

He seemed superior, yes. He had the advantage late in the fight.

Thousands? Exactly how many years? New Gods started around 350,000 years ago. Still, that War god you posted isn't in the same class. Orion is older, stronger, faster, etc... Not even close.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
He seemed superior, yes. He had the advantage late in the fight.

Thousands? Exactly how many years? New Gods started around 350,000 years ago. Still, that War god you posted isn't in the same class. Orion is older, stronger, faster, etc... Not even close.

Again, no context for this statement. He started winning the fight, but was it stated or shown to be skill? If the purpose of the fight was to overcome his pacifism, couldn't it have been his ferocity and power that started to overwhelm her?

Except the timelines I've seen stated that the residents of Apokolips and New Genesis only became Gods 30,000 years ago, and one timeline put the birth of Darkseid at 24,000 years ago: http://fastbak.tripod.com/ngchrono.htm

Considering Angels predate humans, and humans in Marvel were created about 200,000 years ago, I'm going to say Azrael's older than that.

That wasn't the point, I'm not arguing that Wolverine by himself is a match for Orion. My point was that even if Orion has incredible skill "on paper" as a couple of posters have put it, Wolverine's matched skill with people who have comparable "on paper" skill and experience.

I'm not saying that since he beat Azrael, he'll beat Orion, just that Orion's godhood and centuries of experience don't put him out of Wolverine's league, skillwise.

Zack M
Agree to disagree. Wolverine has yet to fight someone like Orion.

Zack M
Btw, the Valkyrie scans are in this thread. I'm on my cell, so I can't post them.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-366361-respect-orion-the-dog-of-war.html

LordofBrooklyn
Ize19, I'd like to ask the following.

Wolverine has had thousands of more appearances than Orion so this should be easy.

Could you cite 10 fights Logan has had to indicate his ability to last against Orion?

Add Creed in for that matter as well.

Ize19
Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
Ize19, I'd like to ask the following.

Wolverine has had thousands of more appearances than Orion so this should be easy.

Could you cite 10 fights Logan has had to indicate his ability to last against Orion?

Add Creed in for that matter as well.

Wolverine vs Thor, Wolverine vs Hercules in Contest of Champions II, vs Ragnarok, vs Count Nefaria, vs Kierrok and the N'Garai, vs The Furies in Astonishing X-Men, Death Wolverine vs Hulk, vs Hulk in Wolverine & Hulk miniseries, vs Titannus in Marvel Team Up v3, vs World War Hulk.

Originally posted by Zack M
Btw, the Valkyrie scans are in this thread. I'm on my cell, so I can't post them.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/...dog-of-war.html

Thanks, I checked them out. At the point at which Orion starts to take the upper hand, it's described thus:

"The fury, the frenzy, the untrammeled violence that is the seething heart of Orion... is loosed upon a Valkyra who seems suddenly sunken and diminished by the force of it." So, what I said earlier, which makes sense, since if he was the more skilled, Orion would be the greatest martial artist in the universe, not Valkyra.



Entirely his equal? Maybe not. Equal in specific aspects? He absolutely has. Sure, I can agree to disagree.

Zack M
Orion is one of the most deadliest top tiers in comics. Think Hulk, but with super speed, insane fighting ability, and genius intellect, both in the scientific and combat areas.

Hes strong enough to fight a sun amped superman. I still say these 3 get beaten, and badly at that

Ize19
Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-Man are three of the most accomplished fighters in comics. Possessing super speed, insane fighting ability, genius intellect, both in the scientific (Spider-Man) and combat (Wolverine and Sabertooth) areas, plus the ability to damage even beings as strong as Hulk. They're well balanced enough to fight and defeat an enraged Hulk. I still say they take Orion down, albeit after a great fight.

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
Wolverine, Sabertooth, and Spider-Man are three of the most accomplished fighters in comics. Possessing super speed, insane fighting ability, genius intellect, both in the scientific (Spider-Man) and combat (Wolverine and Sabertooth) areas, plus the ability to damage even beings as strong as Hulk. They're well balanced enough to fight and defeat an enraged Hulk. I still say they take Orion down, albeit after a great fight.

Three of the most? There are better fighters in comics, IMO. Super speed? For a super soldier, maybe, but not on the level of a top tier like Orion. Spidey's a genius, but not on the level of Orion. Not even close.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
Three of the most? There are better fighters in comics, IMO. Super speed? For a super soldier, maybe, but not on the level of a top tier like Orion. Spidey's a genius, but not on the level of Orion. Not even close.

Three of the most, not the three most. Were you saying Orion is the number 1 top tier? Not equal, but enough that they could keep him off balance long enough to start piling on the damage. Spider-Man has as much talent for science as Reed Richards, and blew away the Scientist Supreme with technology he'd invented at 15 years old.

Zack M
Originally posted by Ize19
Three of the most, not the three most. Were you saying Orion is the number 1 top tier? Not equal, but enough that they could keep him off balance long enough to start piling on the damage. Spider-Man has as much talent for science as Reed Richards, and blew away the Scientist Supreme with technology he'd invented at 15 years old.

Orion has Parker beat in terms of tech feats. When has SM created something that is powerful as the Genesis Box? He hasn't. Technology is the New God's specialty.

Neither one of these guys has faced someone like Orion.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
Orion has Parker beat in terms of tech feats. When has SM created something that is powerful as the Genesis Box? He hasn't. Technology is the New God's specialty.

Neither one of these guys has faced someone like Orion.

It was an irrelevant tangent anyway. In this fight, Orion only has his physical stats to use. Just pointing out Parker's potential, really.

Zack M
Parker definitely is smart, but he hasn't done anything beyond Reed (on average) and Orion's best far outweigh his.

Ize19
Originally posted by Zack M
Parker definitely is smart, but he hasn't done anything beyond Reed (on average) and Orion's best far outweigh his.

I'm sure you're a good guy, Zack, but I don't really feel like we're having a real conversation here...

Zack M
Then I guess we'll both agree to disagree. smile

Ize19
I'm not saying I disagree with Orion's technological prowess, just its relevance.

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