Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

During your time on KMC, what have been the biggest view changes about Star Wars? For example, years ago some people thought Darth Bane was more powerful than Sidious, obviously that has changed now lol

Bane, yeah.

On KMC?

- Krayt Reborn is a top tier. Used to think he was Vader level at BEST.
- Learned about SWTOR. Had no idea what it was when I got here. Thus ALL my placements of SWTOR characters are derived from here.
- This is more of an, upon meeting Ant thing but, I raised my placement of Revan from Ventress level to Vader level. After some time on KMC I grudgingly place him above Vader now.
- Lowered Bane from Vader level to Maul level and then back up to Dooku level with some time away from the forums.
- Raised Exar Kun from some random Ancient to above post Nathema Vitiate.
- Raised Karness Muur to Vader level though that's not really due to KMC. Just a position I came to hold during my time here.
- Raised Ahsoka to around Maul level. Might be lowering her once I force myself to confront the Maul travesty in Rebels.
- A bunch of other placement changes.

Realised that the subject attracts more retarded minds than previously thought possible.

It's a pretty interesting topic for a thread unless your saying you've never once shifted your view in the entirety of your time on KMC.

Lol. Just realized what #Triggered BeniBoi.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ahsoka

Might be lowering her

Jesus Christ dude. Learn to be less attached to a fictional character.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Jesus Christ dude. Learn to be less attached to a fictional character.

Once you fap to something a thousand times there's no going back, you just have to accept Beni for what he is.

Poor kid.

Anakin's ranking.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Anakin's ranking.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Lol. Just realized what #Triggered BeniBoi.



Jesus Christ dude. Learn to be less attached to a fictional character. My post wasn't specifically directed at you, but well done for identifying yourself as among those referred to regardless.

Meh.

What Beni said

Originally posted by Beniboybling
My post wasn't specifically directed at you, but well done for identifying yourself as among those referred to regardless.

Considering Ant and I were the only one's who responded and you said "people" which refers to multiple individuals what else am I to assume. Fix your sh!t if you don't want to be misinterpreted.

Be real Synny. As hard it may be to believe, you and Ant don't have a monopoly on KMC's retardation.

Not with people like you around.

Watch it buster.

When I first joined, I had Kyp around Plagues level; now I think he's => Yoda.

oh dear

Don't see Yoda or Plagueis moving gravatic anomolies like Kyp did, tbh.

Yoda can move anything he can imagine in his head, canon.

Don't see Yoda or Plagueis getting ragdolled by Kenth or stalemated by Jaina

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yoda can move anything he can imagine in his head, canon.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Don't see Yoda or Plagueis getting ragdolled by Kenth or stalemated by Jaina

Damn, Zoltan's being more brain dead and retarded than usual.

Yeah, I'm the retard here, not the one who has Kyp > Yoda

Yeah b/c your arguments are cancerous and mine aren't.

Status quo aside, Kyp has better TK, TP, and destructive displays of the Force. Raw power/potential wise, he was directly placed alongside Yoda and Force Ghost Kenobi, and above the Vader's and Leia's of the world - Vader, possessing 80% of Sidioud power, while Leia was hinted/stated to share parity with Luke in that regard.

I'm not seeing the emphatic difference between the two, tbh.

Yeah my argument is so cancerous that everyone agrees with me and nobody with you

Because your stance is the universally accepted one, but the argument itself, may or may not be?



I'd bet top dollar I can outdebate you regarding Kyp V Yoda, even if no one actually sides or agree with my position.

-All incarnations of Maul are lowered to Bane tier due to his constant jobbing, losses, and pathetic force abilities

-Exar is Dooku level at best without a nexus backing him up

-Ben Kenobi is much higher than I use to have him

-Meetra Surik is probably Jinn tier or lower

-Krayt at his peak is better than Novel vitiate

-

Marka Ragnos being GOD tier.

As for the thread, I can't pinpoint because my entire outlook has changed dramatically over the years I've been here.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Raw power/potential wise, he was directly placed alongside Yoda and Force Ghost Kenobi,

LMFAO, nice try, but no. Kyp was directly placed alongside Yoda and plain ol' Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I say Force Ghost Kenobi, because I'm not sure if Luke had the ability to actually sense Ben's physical Force presence - given, he was less than a novice when Obi-Wan was actually alive, and his ability to actually feel power was more or less non-existent.

That's how I view it at least.

Likewise, I don't think ethereal Kenobi has a force signature. He's not even part of the tangible living Force, not alive or a nexus of energy, he's part of the more abstract cosmic force. The only difference between him and any other dead person is that he retained his identity, whereas others just assimilated into the Force conglomerate.

The cancerous TFU DLC has Ben fighting and using power like a Sith spirit is capable of though. Granted that's non canon.

@DC - Kyp's placed on par with Leia, not above.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I say Force Ghost Kenobi, because I'm not sure if Luke had the ability to actually sense Ben's physical Force presence - given, he was less than a novice when Obi-Wan was actually alive, and his ability to actually feel power was more or less non-existent.

That's how I view it at least. Or maybe Luke just doesn't really know what he's talking about. mmm

I've developed an appreciation for Ahsoka.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Likewise, I don't think ethereal Kenobi has a force signature. He's not even part of the tangible living Force, not alive or a nexus of energy, he's part of the more abstract cosmic force. The only difference between him and any other dead person is that he retained his identity, whereas others just assimilated into the Force conglomerate.

That's fair, but it can also be choked down to the fact the quote is very archiac in nature, and was made before the intricacies regarding the Force and such was created. They probably took Ben's statement about becoming much more powerful in death as legit, or maybe it is referring to flesh Ben - won't ever know for sure, because it's a retarded excerpt regardless.

This is really my main gripe with using old statements/quotes from sourcebooks before the EU fictional history was more filled/expansive, laws were established and the hierarchy was in place.

@Nova: Nah, JAT made it clear Kyp's power was > Leia's. Kyp said they were equal, but he also said he was more powerful than Luke, something you frown upon, so his opinion isn't as credible as Luke's objective Force test, tbh. Nor the statement in Essential Guide to the Characters.

No, that's probably just how you took it because you want to have your cake and eat it too.



Then don't use it in the first place.

And given the circumstances, it's a perfectly reasonable way to take it. .



Nah, this one actually has use and conveys a good point even if the substance is within it isn't all that great. Obi-Wan's part in the quote may have been debunked by where we know he ranks among the Jedi/Sith now, but Yoda and others is still fair game.

Sidious is a god.

Cade is overrated.

Wyyrlok is Dooku-tier.

Galen's shown better TK than Starkiller or Yoda; the former only incinerated, like, 1/4 to 1/3 of the Salvation.

Don't rank Nihilus.

Ranking Soa and Uprising bosses is cancer.

For all the hype he gets from hypothetically being able to supplant RotJ Sidious, Jerec is overrated.

Caedus is overrated.

Kyle got ragdolled.

Not all powerful Force-users demonstrate their strength through TK.

Knightfall Vader > RotJ Vader.

Mace > Tyranus.

TCW Sidious > Valkorion.

Before KMC:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Kyp Durron (Possessed)
3. Darth Sidious
4. Valkorion
5. Yoda
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Caedus
8. Revan
9. Starkiller Clones
10. Darth Krayt
11. Darth Vader
12. Galen Marek
13. Exar Kun
14. Cade Skywalker
15. Tau
16. Soa
17. Darth Malgus
18. Arcann
19. Kyp Durron
20. Darth Malak
21. Kyle Katarn
22. Mace Windu
23. Darth Tyranus
24. Jerec
25. Darth Wyyrlok III
26. Darth Nyriss
27. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
28. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
29. Shaak Ti
30. Bastila Shan

After:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt
8. Raynar Thul
9. Revan
10. Kyp Durron
11. Starkiller(s)
12. Darth Caedus
13. Exar Kun
14. Vaylin
15. Gethzerion
16. Darth Malgus
17. Mace Windu
18. Darth Tyranus
19. Arcann / Darth Wyyrlok III
20. Arcann / Darth Wyyrlok III
21. Cade Skywalker
22. Ulic Qel-Droma
23. Jaina Solo Fel
24. Kyle Katarn
25. Darth Malak
26. Darth Nyriss
27. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
28. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
29. Jerec
30. Shaak Ti

A more Azronger-friendly list:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Darth Plagueis
5. Valkorion
6. Revan
7. Darth Caedus
8. Knightfall Vader
9. Darth Krayt
10. Raynar Thul
11. Kyp Durron
12. Exar Kun
13. Vaylin
14. Gethzerion
15. Cade Skywalker
16. Starkiller(s)
17. Arcann
18. Mace Windu
19. Darth Tyranus
20. Jaina Solo Fel
21. Ulic Qel-Droma
22. Darth Malgus
23. Darth Wyyrlok III
24. Kyle Katarn
25. Darth Malak
26. Darth Nyriss
27. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
28. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
29. Jerec
30. Shaak Ti

Originally posted by Geistalt
Cade is overrated.

21. Cade Skywalker
27. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi
28. Darth Maul / Obi-Wan Kenobi

Kek, you have him higher than almost everyone here.

This is in terms of Force strength.

I'm going to assume you forgot Talzin, and don't actually think Jerec is stronger than her. Same with Traya....

Originally posted by Geistalt Sidious is a god.





Lmao. Anyway, that's not how I'd do it.

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm going to assume you forgot Talzin, and don't actually think Jerec is stronger than her. Same with Traya.... I don't rank Talzin because she's not a natural Force-user.

I don't rank Nihilus 'cause he's an anomaly.

You also could've nitpicked about all the SWTOR Uprising bosses and Soa.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion / Talzin
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Darth Krayt / Darth Nihilus
8. Raynar Thul
9. Revan
10. Kyp Durron
11. Starkiller(s)
12. Darth Caedus
13. Exar Kun
14. Vaylin / RotJ Vader

In Lords of the Sith, which I'm reading at the moment and is now the new canon, Vader thinks to himself that he was stronger now that he knew how to focus his anger and emotions.

fvck the new canon.

Originally posted by samappo
In Lords of the Sith, which I'm reading at the moment and is now the new canon, Vader thinks to himself that he was stronger now that he knew how to focus his anger and emotions.
Not that surprising. Dooku was also insanely arrogant over his new Sith powers.

They take it after Palps.

Don't know anything about Kyp. Explain pls

Kyp was Luke's star pupil.

Debilitates Luke with Lightning.


Crushes Corran Horn's Force Barrier.


Rends Luke body from mind with the aid of Exar Kun.


Deflects blaster fire from a Class 720 freighter.


Saturates a room with Force Lightning.


Reduces a couple of rats to dust.


Telekinetically weaponizes a freighter (estimably larger than the Millennium Falcon); tosses it at a coralskipper with enough force to cause them both to go hurling into a larger coralskipper's singularity.


Reverses the direction of a black hole generated by a dovin basal.

Yep, Kyp is def Yoda level.

Seems like his feats against Luke were only with the aid of Exar Kun, but yeah quite impressive.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yep, Kyp is def Yoda level.

Just about none of that is Yoda level.

Shame they didn't specify what speed and mass the black hole had.

Yoda has no TK feat superior, or even near, Kyp's singularity showing.

The same Luke that collapsed a mountain size structure with less than his full might, had his reserves taxed to the max to move one, and Kyp replicated the same feat, arguably to an easier degree.

Ignoring in character mental inhibitions, Kyp's showings across the board are defintiely more impressive than yoda's at least telkentically and force wise. And unfortunately yoda gets absolutley nothing from scaling in comparison to post rots characters.

The coral skipper showing is well above yoda's mountain or ocw showings. Weaponizing and throwing a freighter is definitely better than redirecting a missle by an inch or holding together a freighter

Kyps's best is>>Yoda's best

Off course yoda wins in character because
a. Saber skill
b. Kyp's in character inhibitions

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Yoda has no TK feat superior, or even near, Kyp's singularity showing.

The same Luke that collapsed a mountain size structure with less than his full might, had his reserves taxed to the max to move one, and Kyp replicated the same feat, arguably to an easier degree.

Kyp's singularity is the only one, and it's a feat accomplished with utterly maximum effort - a level of effort you don't normally see in SW and certainly isn't applicable in a fight. The rest of them aren't even above the likes of Dooku. And doesn't Kyp talk about his mindset and the way that affects his powers in LotF? I mean, if you're discussing raw power, then you could well be right, but if we're talking about in-combat effective power, not quite.

To name something similar, Yoda holds back a mountain in Canon despite the efforts of all those Force users to inhibit his powers. Said mountain being made of esoteric material that made a small boulder difficult for Yoda to lift just hours earlier. And that's fighting against gravity as opposed to being aided by it like Luke was. So yeah, a far better feat than Luke collapsing a "mountain-sized structure", with half-effort or not.

In Legends, Yoda's a match or a near-match for Palpatine, who can, not long after RotS, telekinetically bury 19km-long Star Destroyers and with a thought crack the foundations of his palace (which is 3km tall, 20km wide) which is large enough to house a Star Destroyer.

Then there's always Luke ranking Yoda above Kyp in raw power.

All named feats are inferior to Kyp's, lmao. And nice job mixing canon and Legends, Lal. The reach is beyond real.

And I'm still not sold on Palatine using TK to bury the ISD, neither.

Proof that Nova never went to a science class, lmao.

I'm debating whether or not I should end your career right now, tbh. mmm

micro blackholes have the mass of a moon iirc

They are calculations that insert as much, yes

Even without all the science-cy, fan made stuff, dispersing the matter of a 400 meter ship, until nothing is left, - like the micro black hole Kyp moved - is still insane. Far above moving a mountain, or Sidious thinking - not actually doing, he can crack some foundation.

I'll reply to Nova's entire scribe, though.

yea, DC's right here tbh.

Off course this is all assuming kyp's not strictly in character

Too bad the mountain wasn't an ordinary mountain; it was Force-sensitive and literally resisted Yoda's efforts, and there were others trying to interfere as well, yet Yoda still prevailed. So Yoda's feat is well above Luke's mountain feat, which means he can also replicate Luke's black hole feat according to you.

The point is that Sidious doesn't have any max-effort showings to compare to Kyp's black hole feat. Which you completely missed. Science class? Forget it. You never went to English class. You wouldn't be able to comprehend your science teacher.

You're only comparing the outcome of the showings - the black hole and the palace cracking. Obviously the black hole is far better. But you've failed to take anything else into account; namely, the effort used in accomplishing the feats. Without any understanding of context, you have no business comparing feats.

Case in point here is that Sidious' effortless showings are far beyond any of Kyp's showings when using the same level of effort (little to none). Hence, Palpatine is stronger. We can then safely deduce that if Sidious went all-out, with max effort, then he could easily replicate Kyp's feat.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Too bad the mountain wasn't an ordinary mountain; it was Force-sensitive and literally resisted Yoda's efforts, and the point is that Sidious doesn't have any max-effort showings to compare to Kyp's black hole feat. Which you completely missed. Science class? Forget it. You never went to English class. You wouldn't be able to comprehend your science teacher.

You're only comparing the outcome of the showings - the black hole and the palace cracking. Obviously the black hole is far better. But you've failed to take anything else into account; namely, the effort used in accomplishing the feats.

Case in point here is that Sidious' effortless showing is far beyond any of Kyp's showings when using the same level of effort. We can safely deduce that if Sidious went all-out, max effort, then he could easily replicate Kyp's feat.
Alright nova, Yoda at max effort couldn't stop a missle, Kyp stopped and reversed a singularity.

And besides didn't wollfmyth post text indicating that what yoda did to the mountain was at max effort?

I never mentioned effort for Yoda. I was mentioning effort for Sidious... Jesus Christ.

Besides, the missile in Y: DR was "coming down too hard and too fast". It was basically physically impossible to stop it completely, which is why Yoda had to redirect it (it was also on a DS nexus). Nowhere does it say Yoda couldn't stop the missile under normal circumstances, only that it was too late to stop the missile then and that it had to be redirected rather than outright halted.

Also, are we given specifications for the missile? I'd assume it was enormous, given the size of the transports that Yoda's moved in OCW with less than than max effort.

TBH arguing whether or not how much effort was done is irrelevant unless you think Yoda would put a billion times more energy than what he did to say, stop the missile. The difference between that and stopping a micro black hole which have the mass of a tenth of a Moon is billions, if not trillions of times. Though I do think Yoda>Kyp.

Well, kbro just used the "different authors" argument on CV so I'd expect him to be consistent and hold to that line of thought here. Yoda struggles with plenty of lesser feats depending on the author (that pillar in AotC, for instance). So if you're gonna use those versions of Yoda for Kyp being Yoda-level, then be my guest. I'm arguing for him at his absolute best, which is only fair given we're using a one-time feat for Kyp. If we're taking Kyp's absolute best, why not do the same for Yoda?

Originally posted by SunRazer
I never mentioned effort for Yoda. I was mentioning effort for Sidious... Jesus Christ.

Besides, the missile in Y: DR was "coming down too hard and too fast". It was basically physically impossible to stop it completely, which is why Yoda had to redirect it (it was also on a DS nexus). Nowhere does it say Yoda couldn't stop the missile under normal circumstances, only that it was too late to stop the missile then and that it had to be redirected rather than outright halted.

Also, are we given specifications for the missile? I'd assume it was enormous, given the size of the transports that Yoda's moved in OCW with less than than max effort.
1. Figured yoda would be more relevant here

2. The quote said that even with optimal conditions("perfect peace, unlimited time) yoda would have no hope of stopping that missle, I'll look for it

3. Different mediums

Anyway, for the mountain feat the text and yoda's own statements seem to suggest that yoda was indeed using maximum or near maximum effort for the mountain showing

2/3. If so, then again your argument of "different mediums" or "different authors" applies here. We're using the absolute best for Kyp, so we have to do the same for Yoda. Because otherwise I'm content to sit back on Luke putting dying OT Yoda above Kyp in raw power. Or heck, Ben Kenobi. But we know that's not the case because the times have changed. OT Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't that great anymore (in Legends).

4. Sure, but it's an insane feat all the same. Better than Luke's "mountain-sized structure" busting that DC was mentioning earlier as a comparison for how good Kyp's singularity feat was.

I sometimes wonder if Nova even reads correctly, or is he just mentally retarded. His last post to me was beyond stupidity, I literally don't know where to start.

You know, I'll never improve until you start telling me where I'm being stupid instead of just sitting on the sidelines throwing insults.

Because that's pretty much all you end up doing every time you threaten to clean me up.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2/3. If so, then again your argument of "different mediums" or "different authors" applies here. We're using the absolute best for Kyp, so we have to do the same for Yoda. Because otherwise I'm content to sit back on Luke putting dying OT Yoda above Kyp in raw power. Or heck, Ben Kenobi. But we know that's not the case because the times have changed. OT Yoda and Obi-Wan aren't that great anymore (in Legends).

4. Sure, but it's an insane feat all the same. Better than Luke's "mountain-sized structure" busting that DC was mentioning earlier as a comparison for how good Kyp's singularity feat was.
1. There's a difference between using their absolute best for feats and using their absolute best for scaling you yourself believe is outdated. And using feats yoda has multiple times showcased absolute bests/near absolute bests well below kyp's demonstrated absolute best.
2. Was luke using full power/effort though?

BTW, mind posting the quote you're using for scaling here?

As for my views, Accolades are number 1 for me with power-scaling a close second. So my list for the Strongest Sith would be something like this:

1. Palpatine
2. Krayt Reborn
3.Taalon Post pool dip.
4. Caedus
5. Knightfall Vader
6. Plagueis
7. RO2 Sith
8. Bane
9. SWTOR Vitiate/Valkorion
10. Darth Malak
11. Darth Revan
12. Exar Kun
13. Post-Nathema Vitiate
14. Marka Ragnos
15.Tulak Hord
16.Freedon Nadd
17.Naga Sadow
18.Ludo Kressh
19.Ajunta Pall
20.Karness Muur

Not sure where to rank Kyp Durron possessed by Kun, he does have a statement that potentially places him above Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Merchant
As for my views, Accolades are number 1 for me with power-scaling a close second. So my list for the Strongest Sith would be something like this:

1. Palpatine
2. Krayt Reborn
3.Taalon Post pool dip.
4. Caedus
5. Knightfall Vader
6. Plagueis
7. RO2 Sith
8. Bane
9. SWTOR Vitiate/Valkorion
10. Darth Malak
11. Darth Revan
12. Exar Kun
13. Post-Nathema Vitiate
14. Marka Ragnos
15.Tulak Hord
16.Freedon Nadd
17.Naga Sadow
18.Ludo Kressh
19.Ajunta Pall
20.Karness Muur

Not sure where to rank Kyp Durron possessed by Kun, he does have a statement that potentially places him above Palpatine.
By virtue of ant's figurine statement caedus>plagueis

Also wouldn't luke's quote only apply to a pre prime kyp?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. There's a difference between using their absolute best for feats and using their absolute best for scaling you yourself believe is outdated. And using feats yoda has multiple times showcased absolute bests/near absolute bests well below kyp's demonstrated absolute best.
2. Was luke using full power/effort though?

BTW, mind posting the quote you're using for scaling here?

1. Yoda's best in Legends relies on scaling as an equal to Sidious, not on feats. They're actually somewhat underwhelming for a character of his stature. But then again, you can always go for Rivi-Anu scaling.

2. Nope, but I factored that in. Yoda's actual feat is far beyond Luke's in terms of the circumstances he had to put up with (ie. fighting against gravity as opposed to working with it, having various obstructions to Yoda's power vs no obstructions to Luke's power), so it's only natural for the effort to make up most of the difference.

The only problem is that we have no way of measuring how much the mountain and those inhibitor guys were actually obstructing Yoda's powers, so we can't actually have a conclusive comparison on the overall quality of the showings (I rescind my earlier claims that Yoda's feat is outright better). I suppose we can, for lack of accurate measuring tools, approximate that Yoda and Luke's feats are equal. In that case, provided that the singularities that Kyp and Luke manipulated were of equal potency (I recall a thread being made against that notion), then I'll concede on Kyp being loosely Yoda-level in canon on a TK feats-only basis.

Though I imagine DC was referring to being Legends Yoda-level, and if we're taking him at his best there, then he should still be somewhat more powerful in a combat-relevant sense. Kyp could well have more raw power, though, as I said earlier.

3. The one about Kyp being the strongest Force presence (ie. raw power) that Luke's known since ESB Yoda and old Ben. This is back when OT Yoda and Obi-Wan were stronger than Vader and DE Luke, which is why the scaling doesn't work anymore.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Also wouldn't luke's quote only apply to a pre prime kyp?

Yeah, but it's raw power, so the growth wouldn't be by all that much. And it's also referring to a considerably post-prime Yoda who was basically just keeping himself alive on his Force energies. Obviously Yoda at his best would be far stronger as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You know, I'll never improve until you start telling me where I'm being stupid instead of just sitting on the sidelines throwing insults.

Because that's pretty much all you end up doing every time you threaten to clean me up.

I'd try, but I can't even get to a computer.

1. Great, so when has rots sidious ever had a singularity reversing level tk feat?
2. Singularities>>>Star destroyers. And anyway there's nothing that stops rivi anu from just being an extradoniarily gifted prodigee who's potential was right below anyone with statements indicating greater raw power. An ahsoka tano on steroids
3. that doesn't mean yoda/ben have more raw power though. It just says kyp was the most powerful dude since them, not that he couldn't be more powerful than them

4. Or maybe kyp just has so much raw power/potential that he grew at a way faster rate than yoda declined

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, kbro just used the "different authors" argument on CV so I'd expect him to be consistent and hold to that line of thought here. Yoda struggles with plenty of lesser feats depending on the author (that pillar in AotC, for instance). So if you're gonna use those versions of Yoda for Kyp being Yoda-level, then be my guest. I'm arguing for him at his absolute best, which is only fair given we're using a one-time feat for Kyp. If we're taking Kyp's absolute best, why not do the same for Yoda?
My argument was that dark empire as a source is an outlier and that the head of the eu changed. My argument wasn't about specific authors

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. Great, so when has rots sidious ever had a singularity reversing level tk feat?
2. Singularities>>>Star destroyers. And anyway there's nothing that stops rivi anu from just being an extradoniarily gifted prodigee who's potential was right below anyone with statements indicating greater raw power. An ahsoka tano on steroids
3. that doesn't mean yoda/ben have more raw power though. It just says kyp was the most powerful dude since them, not that he couldn't be more powerful than them

4. Or maybe kyp just has so much raw power/potential that he grew at a way faster rate than yoda declined

1. Again, Sidious has never exercised maximum effort, so that's impossible to compare. However, Palpatine's low-effort showings eclipse Kyp's low effort showings by a considerable margin. We can deduce that the Emperor's more powerful than Kyp and thus, with maximum effort, can replicate the black hole feat.

2. Yoda's still factually more powerful than her.

3. That's exactly what it means, lmfao. Otherwise Kyp would simply be the strongest ever. "If Y's the greatest since X", that means, shocker, that X is greater than Y. For instance, "these are the worst floods since 1962"; that means the 1962 floods are worse than the ones now. Have you never heard weather reporters use this sort of phraseology?

4. Not likely, given that he doesn't grow very much up to Legacy whereas Yoda went from being in his prime to being on his deathbed. He's basically dead at this point, but he sustains himself solely on his powers. That's a huge decrease in power.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
My argument was that dark empire as a source is an outlier and that the head of the eu changed. My argument wasn't about specific authors

Yes, but that should apply to any significant disparity between authors.

1. we can compare rots sidious's maximum effort by assuming that its about on the same level of yoda's which is the whole basis of yoda's scaling to sidious. Also what low-effort tk showings would you be referring to?
2. hence why I said "right below"
3, Yea fair
4. Fair
5. Disagree. DE being an outlier imo isn't because it contradicts a specific author, but because it contradicts the post rotj potrayal(and even pre-rotj tbh) across multiple sources and across multiple authors across the board and additionally there's a far more significant out of universe explanation for it rather than a specific disparity between specific authors and specific sources. It

1. The point is that Yoda doesn't necessarily have TK showings reflecting him at his best. Hence why he needs the scaling off Palpatine.

Unless you take the approach that Yoda, in deep meditation, becomes "one with the Force" and is capable of performing any telekinetic feat he needs to, which is the case in canon with the mountain feat IIRC (in other words, once he communes sufficiently with the Force, he divests himself of limits), but that opens its own can of worms.

For low-effort showings, pretty much all of Palpatine's feats (he rarely ever goes all-out with TK). The one with cracking the foundation of his palace with a thought would be a good start. If you don't trust his musings on the matter, there's always casually pinning Maul and Savage against a wall, choking Maul and Dooku holographically, etc.

2. Alright, although I'm pretty sure that there's chains of scaling that can made off her.

5. That happens more than once in continuity. I'm not saying every author variation has to be taken into account, but if there's a very significant disparity, especially one across multiple sources like you just said, then that's worth noting. TOR, TCW etc. are the big ones.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. The point is that Yoda doesn't necessarily have TK showings reflecting him at his best. Hence why he needs the scaling off Palpatine.

Unless you take the approach that Yoda, in deep meditation, becomes "one with the Force" and is capable of performing any telekinetic feat he needs to, which is the case in canon with the mountain feat IIRC (in other words, once he communes sufficiently with the Force, he divests himself of limits), but that opens its own can of worms.

For low-effort showings, pretty much all of Palpatine's feats (he rarely ever goes all-out with TK). The one with cracking the foundation of his palace with a thought would be a good start. If you don't trust his musings on the matter, there's always casually pinning Maul and Savage against a wall, choking Maul and Dooku holographically, etc.

2. Alright, although I'm pretty sure that there's chains of scaling that can made off her.

5. That happens more than once in continuity. I'm not saying every author variation has to be taken into account, but if there's a very significant disparity, especially one across multiple sources like you just said, then that's worth noting. TOR, TCW etc. are the big ones.
1. Sid's tk showings up untill rots aren't reallly more impressive than yoda's though(because of a lack of oppurtunity).

Pretty obvious hyperbole. Especially considering that it took full effort to hold the mountain in place, which is vastly below the threshold of anything yoda can imagine.

Couple of things. First off sids was especially enraged because of the destruction of the death star. Additionally this is post anh sids who had been draining byss for about a decade at this point and would be well above his yoda matching rots incarnation.

And while his showings vs maul/dooku/opress are nice, neither of the characters you've mentioned have anything indicating parity or any sort of comparability with kyp tk wise. indeed, if we compare whats been presented for yoda and kyp at full strain feat wise, than by virtue of yoda's parity with sids, kyp should be capable of replicating those shwoings
2. Maybe
3. Agreed.

Just because you get angry doesn't mean you're enraged and suddenly get amped. Fair enough on Sidious growing since RotS, though.

And no, my point is that Yoda's upper limits are only explored in material that doesn't depict him at his best, so again, if you want to put Kyp on the level of those versions of Yoda, then be my guest.

However, Yoda "at his best" has no demonstrated upper limits (other than absorbing Sidious' Lightning, but that's not TK), and the easiest thing we can do is use his equal or near-equal scaling to Sidious, whose lack of maximum effort showings makes a direct comparison to Kyp's singularity feat impossible. However, if we're talking about casual effort feats, which is the only area we can compare Sidious and Kyp's TK in, then the Emperor has the clear upper hand, unless you can name me Kyp doing something akin to casually dominating the likes of Maul and Tyranus holographically or casually pinning Maul and Savage to a wall. Especially considering that Tyranus alone is fully capable of replicating any of Kyp's other TK feats (unless I'm missing something) without max effort either.

1. Thats incredibly conyvenient for yoda. yoda at absolute effort not being able to replciate what kyp does throughout multiple sources doesn't serve as a valid basis for claiming that material doesn't depict yoda at his best or that its somehow lowballing yoda. His showing in star wars#29 is arguably his best showing in any sw material. Yoda stalemating sidious in ROTS does't mean that he's potrayed better specifically in rots where both yoda and sidious are lacking tk feats aside from throwing pods at each other. Yoda's scaling from sidious doesn't just apply to yoda's potrayal in rots sepcifically as a source but would apply to his potrayal anywhere including comics and novels where we see him showing his best effort. And you can't scale yoda off sidious and then deny sidious the limitations he would get from scaling off yoda. Yoda has demonstrated limits and so Sidious's limits should be at best marginally above.

The difference bewteen my arguemnt for dark empire and the situation here is that yoda's potrayals in the most recent star wars comic or in loe don't have a plethora of surrounding material that is consistently higher than what yoda is shown.

Based on what can dooku replicate any of kyp's showings?

And so its clear I've only been discussing "kyp at his best" in the context of kyp not having his in character limitaions which prevent him from replicating his best feats in typical combat scenarios. Limitations which yoda does not have and has succesfully overcome.

1. No idea what you're talking about. Yoda having problems stopping missiles or lifting pillars represent limits that don't apply to him at his best in the EU. At his best in the EU, he's a match or near-match for someone who can casually choke powerful Sith Lords holographically and the like.

2. I'm not talking about the canon feat. I'm talking about Yoda not being able to stop a missile or having trouble lifting the pillar in AotC. Other depictions are "consistently higher"; we can assume that those limitations don't apply to Yoda here. The canon feat is his best one, so obviously my argument wouldn't apply to it. We've finished discussing canon; I conceded that Kyp and canon Yoda are approximately on the same level in terms of TK on a feats-based approach. This is all about Legends Yoda now.

3. Based on his cruiser showing and others, which is at least as good as any of Kyp's non-singularity TK feats.

4. As I've said about four times already, Kyp having more raw power than Yoda isn't an altogether ridiculous argument. That's entirely plausible. However, he just doesn't put out that level of power in combat - ever. If we're discussing him the context of combat-usable power, then he isn't on Yoda's level.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. No idea what you're talking about. Yoda having problems stopping missiles or lifting pillars represent limits that don't apply to him at his best in the EU. At his best in the EU, he's a match or near-match for someone who can casually choke powerful Sith Lords holographically and the like.

2. I'm not talking about the canon feat. I'm talking about Yoda not being able to stop a missile or having trouble lifting the pillar in AotC. Other depictions are "consistently higher"; we can assume that those limitations don't apply to Yoda here. The canon feat is his best one, so obviously my argument wouldn't apply to it. We've finished discussing canon; I conceded that Kyp and canon Yoda are approximately on the same level in terms of TK on a feats-based approach. This is all about Legends Yoda now.

3. Based on his cruiser showing and others, which is at least as good as any of Kyp's non-singularity TK feats.

4. As I've said about four times already, Kyp having more raw power than Yoda isn't an altogether ridiculous argument. That's entirely plausible. However, he just doesn't put out that level of power in combat - ever. If we're discussing him the context of combat-usable power, then he isn't on Yoda's level.
1. Ah alright, I figured we were talking composite, my bad

2. I wasn't aware of that. but they aren't "approximately on the same level" in a canon feats approach, kyp's pretty clearly ahead here pertaining to tk.

3. Alright

4. Then we're in agreement.

Kbro doing a solid job holding Nova down until I can get to a computer.

So, Kyp has Yoda-tier TK (maybe even Sidious-tier TK), although Yoda's clearly the better combatant.

Looks like I'm ranking him over Raynar Thul in terms of Force strength again.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Kyp Durron
8. Darth Krayt
9. Raynar Thul
10. Revan

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Kbro doing a solid job holding Nova down until I can get to a computer.

What happened lol

Originally posted by Geistalt
So, Kyp has Yoda-tier TK (maybe even Sidious-tier TK), although Yoda's clearly the better combatant.

Looks like I'm ranking him over Raynar Thul in terms of Force strength again.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Knightfall Vader
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Kyp Durron
8. Darth Krayt
9. Raynar Thul
10. Revan

In terms of sheer Force strength Knightfall Vader should be above Yoda, and UnuThul is possibly above everyone on the list.

Anyway, I've reduced the ancient/pre-PT sith, and raised Anakin and Obi Wan.

Thank f-uck he didn't get to his PC, nobody should be subjected to Kyp > Yoda retardation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
In terms of sheer Force strength, UnuThul is possibly above everyone on the list. How much of that Force strength was actually his, though? I'm trying to rank him where he stands without drawing on the Colony.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul is possibly above everyone on the list.



Luke ragdolled and beat UnuThul in a telepathy battle.

Originally posted by Geistalt
How much of that Force strength was actually his, though? I'm trying to rank him where he stands without drawing on the Colony.

Oh, then he's nothing special.

Originally posted by Azronger


Luke ragdolled and beat UnuThul in a telepathy battle.

My impression in that fight was that UnuThul may have been more powerful (he was like knocking Luke around) but Luke was obviously the better fighter, but my memory may be wrong.

No, Luke legit ragdolled him and beat him in a TP battle

Originally posted by The Merchant
As for my views, Accolades are number 1 for me with power-scaling a close second. So my list for the Strongest Sith would be something like this:

1. Palpatine
2. Krayt Reborn
3.Taalon Post pool dip.
4. Caedus
5. Knightfall Vader
6. Plagueis
7. RO2 Sith
8. Bane
9. SWTOR Vitiate/Valkorion
10. Darth Malak
11. Darth Revan
12. Exar Kun
13. Post-Nathema Vitiate
14. Marka Ragnos
15.Tulak Hord
16.Freedon Nadd
17.Naga Sadow
18.Ludo Kressh
19.Ajunta Pall
20.Karness Muur

Not sure where to rank Kyp Durron possessed by Kun, he does have a statement that potentially places him above Palpatine.

Where's Darth Nihilus? Kreia says that he learnt the "greatest" of the Sith teachings. Although this led to him becoming a slave of his hunger, it basically made him a scaling beast who is virtually unstoppable. I also don't know how Sidious fits into this, or any of the RO2 Sith. Isn't Nihilus some sort of anomaly when ranking?

@Ell here's the passage again

@Merchant Bane > Valkorion is pretty bold and I don't think I agree. A single offhand statement about Bane surpassing sith before him doesn't refute the huge body of literature that makes Valkorion's advantage pretty clear and obvious.

My list for Sith in Force power would be:

1. Palpatine
2. Krayt Reborn
3. Plagueis
4. Valkorion
5. Caedus
6. Vader
7. Tenebrous
8. Darth Nihilus
9. Exar Kun
10. Dooku

I'm using RotJ Vader, I dunno for Knightfall Vader.

Left out post-pool Taalon, he might be number 1 but it feels weird putting him there.
For Jedi:

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Yoda
3. Anakin Skywalker
4. Kyp Durron
5. Galen Marek
6. Revan Reborn
7. Jacen Solo
8. Mace Windu
9. The Outlander
10. Obi Wan ??

Left out possibilities like Oneness Jacen.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
@Ell here's the passage again

OK cool, but wasn't UnuThul winning earlier?

Sith:

1. Palpatine

2. Plagueis

3. Valkoriate/Tenebrous/Nihilus

4. Valkoriate/Tenebrous/Nihilus

5. Valkoriate/Tenebrous/Nihilus

6. Vader/Krayt/Caedus

7. Vader/Krayt/Caedus

8. Vader/Krayt/Caedus

9. Exar Kun/Dooku

10. Exar Kun/Dooku

For all the /'s, placement varies, depending on mood, new arguments, hype, etc.

Jedi:

1. Grand Master Luke

2. Grand Master Yoda

3. Anakin Skywalker/Kyp Durron

4. Anakin Skywalker/Kyp Durron

5. Mace Windu

6. Revan Reborn/Starkiller

7. Revan Reborn/Starkiller

8. The Outlander

9. Obi Wan Kenobi

10. Arca Jeth

Not including people like Jedi Jacen( no idea where he ranks) or Jedi Dooku( would probably replace Jeth if ranked).

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
3. Anakin Skywalker/Kyp Durron

4. Anakin Skywalker/Kyp Durron

whatthe****

Just force power. And base Anakin.

Define base Anakin.

Since Knightfall Anakin is "base Anakin" as far as I'm concerned.

Everything else is "hindered Anakin."

Pre-Zonakin ROTS Anakin.

You are talking about Anakin being given a huge boost in power, due to the dark side. That isn't base level. Not how I see it, anyways.

Also, we generally say KF "Vader", when we make references to him in debates.

edit.

I missed the LS / DS dynamic of your list, NGL.

Anyway, I call him "Knightfall Anakin." Who's "we?"

You worded that as if I'm new to this. I've been in 10x more debates than you, rofl.

Maybe such wasn't intentional though, so nvm.

lol Kyp is a horrible combatant but his raw power is established as being godly.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
edit.

I missed the LS / DS dynamic of your list, NGL.

Anyway, I call him "Knightfall Anakin." Who's "we?"

You worded that as if I'm new to this. I've been in 10x more debates than you, rofl.

Maybe such wasn't intentional though, so nvm.

LS/DS dynamic?

Language was never my strong suit( my weakest, in fact), so I am not surprised. It most definitely wasn't intentional though.

By "we", I mean, I see him being alluded to as KF Vader, among most. I would rank the guy on par with Yoda/Sidious.

I always refer to him as Knightfall Vader. Also, nice list, although I'm sure the Exar Kun fans would react negatively to him being under Vader (unless they've accepted Malak > Kun).

I'm a Kun fan and I don't react negatively

Lmfao, Kun would stomp Dooku and beats Vader or Caedus everytime.

CaV me, b!tch.

kek

I'm not even kidding. I'd prefer Dooku or Caedus, more interesting.

y no krayt

Krayt is more debatable if you ignore Muur scaling.

That's the point.

Well I'm not challenging that Krayt could be comparable to Kun. The other three clearly aren't, which is why I made the challenge in the first place.

We refer to him as Knightfall Vader because he was already given the title "Darth Vader" at that point in time. But it doesn't really matter

As long as we treat Anakin and Vader as separate characters, knight fall Vader is Vader not Anakin

@elimnist, could you make a case for krayt>plagueis