Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It_olylT42I&feature=youtu.be&t=1m56s

Eesh.

Yep. It seems they are butchering Luke based on the trailer.

*anxiety attack incoming*

Originally posted by ares834
Yep. It seems they are butchering Luke based on the trailer. Don't you think that's a bit premature.

I think Hamill is imagining Luke as like Yoda, an embodiment of the light-side and all positive values.

But then Johnson is saying no, Luke's in the middle. There's a dark-side to him too, but also the good.

If that's the case, then I'm fine with Hamill disagreeing.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Don't you think that's a bit premature.

"Seems" is a pretty key word there.

disney just can't let star wars be star wars. If disney actually wants to change crap then they shouldn't have restarted the saga as they did with the premise of tfa

Originally posted by ares834
"Seems" is a pretty key word there. Yeah, you can't really infer anything like that from the trailer. Unless you are dead set against the idea of Luke being against another Jedi Order. If so, lel.

Uh, yeah I am. That's absolute shit and goes completely against what the character was in the OT. I'm hoping that he intends to create a better order of Jedi or something (and not this gray bullshit) but we'll see.

Yeah, the OT is being raped. Even the entire title of Return of the Jedi is rendered void.

Legends raped the OT far more than the ST has.

So because the EU was shit that excuses the ST?

Eh, depends. There were hits and misses, but most of it didn't ruin anything in the OT or render it insignificant. Legends >>>> ST

Originally posted by ares834
So because the EU was shit that excuses the ST?
I've loved the ST so far, so I don't even see the need to give excuses.

Just pointing out the obvious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Legends raped the OT far more than the ST has.
uh, no. Legends built on the ot, at best details were retconned. Disney took all the events of signifcance from the ot(and the saga as a whole) and either did away with them off screen or twisted them in to something.

Anakin's redmeption is not only made pointless, but vader
a. becomes part of the reason the new republic fails
b. is the reason his grandson turns to the darkside

Luke's jedi order is destroyed off screen

The new republic is weakened and gets crushed off screen(to be replaced with the resistance) and then is basically destroyed after about 5 seconds of screen time

The whole premise of tfa is basically anh making the saga before it utterly pointless. In other words disney rebooted star wars, and now they're trying to fundemenatlly change it.

For once, Kbro is making sense

Genuinely surprised people are defending the classic EU with Palpatine clones over the ST.

Once again, I find it amusing the biggest critics of Star Wars films are Star Wars fans.

Originally posted by Azronger
For once, Kbro is making sense
I have my moments

Once again, your opinions on the topic of the ST are cucky, man.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Genuinely surprised people are defending the classic EU with Palpatine clones over the ST.

Once again, I find it amusing the biggest critics of Star Wars films are Star Wars fans.

Palpatine in DE redeemed his embarassing death in the OT. DE >>>>>>> ST

If DE was the only comic, sure (although the Chosen One prophecy is still destroyed). Then they made Dark Empire II and Empire's End, which ruined it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If DE was the only comic, sure (although the Chosen One prophecy is still destroyed). Then they made Dark Empire II and Empire's End, which ruined it.

EE was crap, I admit, but I didn't mind DE II. Still better than the ST, though

Originally posted by Azronger
Palpatine in DE redeemed his embarassing death in the OT. DE >>>>>>> ST
Because how cool sids looks dying should supersede the significance of anakin's redemption.

Not that its remotely the same as what the st did given that
a. DE was made before the prequel trilogy

b. De didn't destroy luke's order or the new republic

And anyway the eu leadership had changed from that era long before disney came into power.

So ant's just deflecting here

Anakin's redemption was never about killing Sheev but rather saving Luke. And it predates the PT so one can't fault it for undermining the Chosen One prophecy. The bigger problem with DE is Luke turning to the dark side.

Originally posted by ares834
Anakin's redemption was never about killing Sheev but rather saving Luke.
Interesting take.

Originally posted by ares834
Anakin's redemption was never about killing Sheev but rather saving Luke. And it predates the PT so one can't fault it for undermining the Chosen One prophecy. The bigger problem with DE is Luke turning to the dark side.
1. Thats's a pretty great interpretation actually
2. Yup
3. Well Luke does come back. And thats still not close to what tfa did(and tfa does not predate the ot, pt, or the saga)

I'm with ares in that I'm Kinda afraid what they're going to do with Luke. Which I never thought would be an issue prior to this teaser.



Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Once again, I find it amusing the biggest critics of Star Wars films are Star Wars fans.


That actually makes sense. It's the same with comic book films.

Originally posted by ares834
Uh, yeah I am. That's absolute shit and goes completely against what the character was in the OT. I'm hoping that he intends to create a better order of Jedi or something (and not this gray bullshit) but we'll see. How? Luke tried to create a new Jedi Order and it failed, and this changed his perspective. It's not as if the character is not allowed to have growth.

Yeah this movie's going to be shit. I honestly don't give a shit about the ST anymore. Just hoping for some good spinoff movies in the Clone Wars and Empire era.

Wow people are really triggered.

What's sad is that unlike TFA it's in a position to break the mold. Yet folks whine anyway.

Really not triggered. I was the first person to call TFA what it was "garbage." This movie seems like it'll be garbage to.

I'll be very happy if it's NOT garbage. But why hold expectations that will probably disappoint you?

Nah. As long as they make a few books with Thrawn level quality I'm happy.

Uhuh, only a mad bro would decide the movie is shit having only seen a teaser.

The butthurt flowing through you being guaranteed to ruin your viewing experience and you nitpick for flaws to justify your anger. Pitiable.

*Shrug* Can't help how I feel.

And I feel this movie will be more garbage PC/OT fanboy pandering.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
How? Luke tried to create a new Jedi Order and it failed, and this changed his perspective. It's not as if the character is not allowed to have growth.

Characters can certainly grow. The problem is when it's all off screen and you turn the hero into a mopey depressive failure.

The directors aren't in a position to cover 30 years of Luke's growth, as they weren't for Han & Leia. Nor is it necessary to understand the character's motivations. But it would fundamentally make no sense for them to be in the same place now as they where three decades ago.

And the hero as it turns out, doesn't always win, and can indeed experience a crisis of faith. That's called realism.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The directors aren't in a position to cover 30 years of Luke's growth, as they weren't for Han & Leia. Nor is it necessary to understand the character's motivations. But it would fundamentally make no sense for them to be in the same place now as they where three decades ago.
And yet the premise of tfa makes it so that the characters were in the exact same place they were 30 years ago

That's fine. But then they shouldn't undermine the characters like they seem to be doing with Luke or completely undo all character growth as they did with Han.

Also these are movies not the real world. Having the hero utterly fail is completely unfulfilling and it hurts the previous films.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And yet the premise of tfa makes it so that the characters were in the exact same place they were 30 years ago

Nailed it.

In what respect.

If your referring to OT style setting that's just changing the goal posts kek.

Agreeing with someone is changing the goal posts now.

Originally posted by ares834
Agreeing with someone is changing the goal posts now. No, changing the topic from Luke's character growth to the settings of the movies is changing the goal posts.

It's almost as f I didn't bring up the setting once. An lo and behold, I didn't. I never made such an argument!

Right. I'm confused as to what the poster you thumbed up was supposed to have nailed then. Y'know. Like I asked.

So we are back to me agreeing with a poster and not me making an argument and thus never changing the goal posts. Glad we agree.

Right, the posters point being a flop because its irrelevant. And doesn't disprove or undermine any of my arguments.

Yeah let's move on.

Originally posted by ares834
That's fine. But then they shouldn't undermine the characters like they seem to be doing with Luke or completely undo all character growth as they did with Han.Uhuh, you still haven't explained how Luke losing faith in the Jedi undermines his character.

Having a hero utterly fail as a denouement to his story arc is unfufiling. Having a hero fail in the prelude to a subsequent story arc is not, its called generating conflict that drives plot i.e. good storytelling.

What is unfulfilling is having a hero never stop winning, and creates bland plots that revolve around the next monster of the week, like intergalatic space invaders or something.

At least it seems like this has more potential to not be a carbon copy like TFA was. Though I imagine it will mirror ESB quite strongly.

You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.


Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem.

Mind explaining how the heroes "never stopped winning" before the st. Did the prequel trilogy not happen? What about esb?

And no, resetting the whole fcking lore rather than actually being creative and creating something new isn't good story telling, its lazy story telling. And if you're going to fundementally change the lore you're redoing, then you're also fundementally changing the original lore.

The problem isn't that disney went for a new direction. The problem is disney went for a new direction trying to tell the exact same story.

The magnitude of the problem won't be known for some time, since it'll depend on whether Luke succeeds in rebuilding the Jedi Order, though I expect him to die in the process (ie. die during the ST). So I'm kind of in agreement with Ares here.

Certainly the RotJ ending is hugely compromised by the ST in my opinion. The thing is the RotS ending led directly into the setting of ANH despite the huge time gap. The RotJ ending and the TFA setting couldn't be further apart. It's like there should've been another trilogy in between.

Originally posted by ares834
You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.


Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem. Tends to happen when you respond to my points with non-answers.mmm

For example you still haven't explained how Luke's character has been "undone". That suggests he's back where he started, yet evidently he's nothing like the farmboy we found on Tatooine. He has experienced and retained growth obviously, he just hasn't necessarily remained on the same path.

The fact that he has changed dramatically in character making him interesting. Already miles more so than he ever was in Legends.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mind explaining how the heroes "never stopped winning" before the st. Did the prequel trilogy not happen? What about esb?

And no, resetting the whole fcking lore rather than actually being creative and creating something new isn't good story telling, its lazy story telling. And if you're going to fundementally change the lore you're redoing, then you're also fundementally changing the original lore.

The problem isn't that disney went for a new direction. The problem is disney went for a new direction trying to tell the exact same story. I don't plan on explaining something I never claimed you utter dolt.

Originally posted by ares834
You seem to be going in circles here. Let me reiterate, it happened off screen.


Yes, yes. 30 years have passed and I expect the characters to have changed. But when you undo everything the character did and completely flip him from an idealistic hero to a depressed failure all off screen then we have a problem.

"off screen" and "completely flip" being the key words here

Where did I say Luke was "undone"? If so, I misspoke. I said Han's character growth was undone and Luke's accomplishments have been undone (hence me calling him a failure).

@Beni - Luke changes dramatically in Legends as well by falling to the dark side, Mara's death, etc. Though I agree he remains fairly static as a character from the NJO series onwards.

Originally posted by ares834
Where did I say Luke was "undone"? If so, I misspoke. I said Han's character growth was undone and Luke's accomplishments have been undone (hence me calling him a failure). My bad I conflated the two.

Originally posted by SunRazer
@Beni - Luke changes dramatically in Legends as well by falling to the dark side, Mara's death, etc. Though I agree he remains fairly static as a character from the NJO series onwards.

Yeah, Luke is actually a very dynamic character in the EU from RotJ up to the Unifying Force.

Also, before we get into claims about his shift in character, we actually have to see The Last Jedi. So far, all we know is that he's failed in rebuilding the Jedi Order and lives in exile. A several-second sequence of him turning and lowering his hood in TFA is not enough to judge the shift in his character, lmfao. At best we can argue that it sets up the potential for a dramatic character shift, but nothing more.

I'd rather see Luke's character develop than him become a Yoda clone tbh.

Luke doesn't become a Yoda clone in Legends, except maybe at the end of DNT up to mid-LotF. He certainly has far more emotional character than Yoda, even in Legends.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'd rather see Luke's character develop than him become a Yoda clone tbh.
Legends Luke wasn't a yoda clone.

And legends Luke's order wasn't the same as yoda's

That's not what I said lol. But Luke not experiencing some kind of emotional development over the course of those 30 years would make him a Yoda clone yeah.

The fact that people seem to have no issue with Luke having a range of emotion and indeed alignment in the EU making the outrage here only more puzzling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not what I said lol. But Luke not experiencing some kind of emotional development over the course of those 30 years would make him a Yoda clone yeah.
Who said Luke couldn't have emotional development?

Luke gets emotional development from things like Mara's death, Jacen's fall to the dark side, etc. No idea what you're talking about.

I'm talking about the movies lmao.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Who said Luke couldn't have emotional development? You apparently. Sadness and defeat (and the dark side) are apparently off-limits to Luke now.

I agree with Beni 99% on this, honestly.

The 1% off since, well, he's Beni.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Luke gets emotional development from things like Mara's death, Jacen's fall to the dark side, etc. No idea what you're talking about.

He's also had a cursed love life.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You apparently. Sadness and defeat (and the dark side) are apparently off-limits to Luke now.
Thats not close to what I said.

Sadness and defeat is fine(and happens frequently through the saga and the eu).

But you don't need to destroy everything luke worked towards off screen for luke to experience sadness and defeat

Uhuh, so what fundamentally is the issue here? Luke's state of mind or the events that led him here? Seems to me you have an issue with both. mmm

Most of this bickering is pointless until we see what character development Luke actually has in TLJ.

Originally posted by SunRazer
this bickering is pointless lel

https://youtu.be/YnNSnJbjdws?t=117

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uhuh, so what fundamentally is the issue here? Luke's state of mind or the events that led him here? Seems to me you have an issue with both. mmm
Both.

So you admit it, Luke isn't allowed to be depressed.

Originally posted by SunRazer
https://youtu.be/YnNSnJbjdws?t=117
Found disney's offical stance on this:
https://youtu.be/YnNSnJbjdws?t=31s

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wow people are really triggered.

What's sad is that unlike TFA it's in a position to break the mold. Yet folks whine anyway.


You seem like the one whose triggered tbh.

People are entitled to not like what they saw in this trailer you know.

And I'm entitled to correct their poor judgement. u mad?

Anyway. The issue I see here is primarily an overabundance of reverence and, especially, an inflexibility when it comes to things different to what we've come to expect. It was the same bug bear that was had for the Prequels, which were in part hated for everything about the OT they were not (and when TFA responded by serving up a retro movie, it suffered because of it) - the idea that fundamentally there exist these oh so precious concepts that are in constant danger of being ruined.

Fundamentally, there should be nothing off-limits where it comes to the character of Luke, and I can't help but find the idea that Luke cannot inhabit certain emotions - however dramatic - to be absurd. So far as it makes sense, makes for an interesting plot, and ties in with saga thematically, this shouldn't be an issue, at all. While personally I find the idea of Luke inhabiting a space so estranged from what we're are familiar with, an idealistic, quintessential truest of true heroes, to be an intensely exciting prospect, and not something to be shied away from. It offers up a new, original dynamic and take on the character, as well as an opportunity to explore Luke's character itself in greater depth.

The fact that the transition itself occurs "off-panel" as it's been said shouldn't really matter, so far as we are able to understand the character's motivations and situation so the viewer is not left confused. A movie is concerned with the meat of the issue, and just as we don't need to know the events that made Anakin Vader to understand and empathise with his arc in OT, it shouldn't be necessary here either.

As for this tired mantra of "it undermines the OT", I really question whether people believe it, that, in fact, when they go and rewatch Return of the Jedi, the experience will be somehow now be diminished. For starters it's not as if any of Luke's accomplishments in that movie have been undone, the Empire lost, the Emperor kicked the bucket, his father was redeemed and Luke became in a position to reestablish the Jedi. The fact that several decades later sh*t hit the fan shouldn't detract from any that, because there was nothing implicit in the ending of RotJ that everything was going to work out, or that everything would remain the same. Certainly it's not as if this critique has ever been raised for say, the KOTOR series, where in despite saving the galaxy in the first game, it's in a worst state than ever in the next. I'd be interested to here if anything seriously believes this to be problematic, and would advocate the driving conflict of KOTOR II be expunged because "it undermines da Revan's achievements!!111!"

On the other hand the idea that things just worked out for Luke is 1. predictable and 2. offers little room for conflict and growth. Instead things must go wrong to create new obstacles to Luke for overcome. Bigger being better in this respect, the greater the obstacle, the greater the stakes and the greater the growth in defeating it. Indeed I think it's also true that people are being incredibly short sighted here. Chances are everything is going to work out for Luke in the end, in the sense that he's going to reach some sort of resolution, and achieve some level of closure. So asserting that turns out poor old Lukey is just a depressed old failure is to entirely jump the gun, at present this is merely a bump in the road, an additional stage in and indeed spring board for his story arc.

What I most like about this plot point though is that it's addressing a theme that, in both Legends and Canon, has gone largely unaddressed. That the Jedi kinda suck. In the OT they are represented by a pair of old geezers who though clearly possessing good intentions and ignored by Luke on two critical accounts, and much to his benefit. Whereas in the PT they are slated as almost a universally terrible and failed order who in part brought about their own demise. And in both cases they are very very bad at handling those who are in danger of falling or have fallen to the dark side. Or rather the idea of Luke simply setting up a new Order and getting back to business would pretend as if thematically, these realities didn't exist, in which case its no surprise that when he did attempt this things went pear shaped. Whereas confronting the idea head on that maybe the Jedi do need to end, or at the very least, need to be reformed, to stop this endless cycle of boom and inevitable bust, fits in well with a character whom I have at least always seen, as someone different from the Jedi of the past, and who would do things differently, and themes of Star Wars as a whole. Nor a subject that should be shied away from at the risk of pissing off some fans.

Anyway, I wrote this out because I'm not interesting in bickering about until December. These are my thoughts, take them or leave them.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Triggered

*Gives Beni a comforting shoulder squeeze*

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What I most like about this plot point though is that it's addressing a theme that, in both Legends and Canon, has gone largely unaddressed. That the Jedi kinda suck. In the OT they are represented by a pair of old geezers who though clearly possessing good intentions and ignored by Luke on two critical accounts, and much to his benefit. Whereas in the PT they are slated as almost a universally terrible and failed order who in part brought about their own demise. And in both cases they are very very bad at handling those who are in danger of falling or have fallen to the dark side. Or rather the idea of Luke simply setting up a new Order and getting back to business would pretend as if thematically, these realities didn't exist, in which case its no surprise that when he did attempt this things went pear shaped. Whereas confronting the idea head on that maybe the Jedi do need to end, or at the very least, need to be reformed, to stop this endless cycle of boom and inevitable bust, fits in well with a character whom I have at least always seen, as someone different from the Jedi of the past, and who would do things differently, and themes of Star Wars as a whole. Nor a subject that should be shied away from at the risk of pissing off some fans.

If they go this way, I will be pleased.

I disagree with the rest.

Edit: BTW, Luke's order in the EU was quite different especially at the end of the NJO. Unfortunately, LotF made the order more like the PT's.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, the OT is being raped. Even the entire title of Return of the Jedi is rendered void. It's referring to Anakin leaving the Sith; not Luke bringing back the order.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
*Gives Beni a comforting shoulder squeeze* Don't touch me. sneer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Legends raped the OT far more than the ST has.

I guess, but at least Luke actually built a functioning Jedi Order that was around for a hundred years.

Originally posted by Geistalt
It's referring to Anakin leaving the Sith; not Luke bringing back the order.

It reads both ways. It was assumed that Luke was bringing back the order, which is why the now-Legends EU ran with the notion.

I like the way this trilogy seems to be headed for one major reason and that is that we are getting something new; we have seen the Jedi vs Sith game for 6 films now and neither side seem to be getting anywhere in universe so its time for a change and I'm cool with that if only for the reason that it wont be predictable

I dunno, Jedi are so part and parcel to the franchise. It's gonna be weird without them. But at least Disney are showing some guts for once. Let's see if they have the guts to replace stormtroopers.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anyway. The issue I see here is primarily an overabundance of reverence and, especially, an inflexibility when it comes to things different to what we've come to expect. It was the same bug bear that was had for the Prequels, which were in part hated for everything about the OT they were not (and when TFA responded by serving up a retro movie, it suffered because of it) - the idea that fundamentally there exist these oh so precious concepts that are in constant danger of being ruined.

Fundamentally, there should be nothing off-limits where it comes to the character of Luke, and I can't help but find the idea that Luke cannot inhabit certain emotions - however dramatic - to be absurd. So far as it makes sense, makes for an interesting plot, and ties in with saga thematically, this shouldn't be an issue, at all. While personally I find the idea of Luke inhabiting a space so estranged from what we're are familiar with, an idealistic, quintessential truest of true heroes, to be an intensely exciting prospect, and not something to be shied away from. It offers up a new, original dynamic and take on the character, as well as an opportunity to explore Luke's character itself in greater depth.

The fact that the transition itself occurs "off-panel" as it's been said shouldn't really matter, so far as we are able to understand the character's motivations and situation so the viewer is not left confused. A movie is concerned with the meat of the issue, and just as we don't need to know the events that made Anakin Vader to understand and empathise with his arc in OT, it shouldn't be necessary here either.

As for this tired mantra of "it undermines the OT", I really question whether people believe it, that, in fact, when they go and rewatch Return of the Jedi, the experience will be somehow now be diminished. For starters it's not as if any of Luke's accomplishments in that movie have been undone, the Empire lost, the Emperor kicked the bucket, his father was redeemed and Luke became in a position to reestablish the Jedi. The fact that several decades later sh*t hit the fan shouldn't detract from any that, because there was nothing implicit in the ending of RotJ that everything was going to work out, or that everything would remain the same. Certainly it's not as if this critique has ever been raised for say, the KOTOR series, where in despite saving the galaxy in the first game, it's in a worst state than ever in the next. I'd be interested to here if anything seriously believes this to be problematic, and would advocate the driving conflict of KOTOR II be expunged because "it undermines da Revan's achievements!!111!"

On the other hand the idea that things just worked out for Luke is 1. predictable and 2. offers little room for conflict and growth. Instead things must go wrong to create new obstacles to Luke for overcome. Bigger being better in this respect, the greater the obstacle, the greater the stakes and the greater the growth in defeating it. Indeed I think it's also true that people are being incredibly short sighted here. Chances are everything is going to work out for Luke in the end, in the sense that he's going to reach some sort of resolution, and achieve some level of closure. So asserting that turns out poor old Lukey is just a depressed old failure is to entirely jump the gun, at present this is merely a bump in the road, an additional stage in and indeed spring board for his story arc.

What I most like about this plot point though is that it's addressing a theme that, in both Legends and Canon, has gone largely unaddressed. That the Jedi kinda suck. In the OT they are represented by a pair of old geezers who though clearly possessing good intentions and ignored by Luke on two critical accounts, and much to his benefit. Whereas in the PT they are slated as almost a universally terrible and failed order who in part brought about their own demise. And in both cases they are very very bad at handling those who are in danger of falling or have fallen to the dark side. Or rather the idea of Luke simply setting up a new Order and getting back to business would pretend as if thematically, these realities didn't exist, in which case its no surprise that when he did attempt this things went pear shaped. Whereas confronting the idea head on that maybe the Jedi do need to end, or at the very least, need to be reformed, to stop this endless cycle of boom and inevitable bust, fits in well with a character whom I have at least always seen, as someone different from the Jedi of the past, and who would do things differently, and themes of Star Wars as a whole. Nor a subject that should be shied away from at the risk of pissing off some fans.

Anyway, I wrote this out because I'm not interesting in bickering about until December. These are my thoughts, take them or leave them. I am very wise, yeah.

Beni how was the plot point of the Jedi sucking not addressed in both continuities? I thought it was, it just wasn't shoved in our faces, but it was there to an extent.

I said largely unaddressed, until TLJ I don't think its really been confronted in a big way, which it needed to be.

AFAIK the Jedi sucking has existed pretty much unsaid except by people arguing that the prequels are actually great because everyone is unlikable on purpose.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I said largely unaddressed, until TLJ I don't think its really been confronted in a big way, which it needed to be.

Hm...I guess in a big way sure, though I feel more subtle works just as well imo.

Anyway guess I'll give my thoughts now that the dust has settled. Even though TLJ seemed to have just rewrote what TFA had set up with Luke...

I'm more indifferent to the character, him dying is a 0 issue for me, I guess we all expected him to die at some point....although I kinda do wish he had least lived to Episode 9 at the least.

His characterization...again indifferent, some parts I liked, some I didn't. I suppose there I had some expectation which was kinda met at 50/50 range.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Hm...I guess in a big way sure, though I feel more subtle works just as well imo. Sure, it's not necessarily a criticism, but the way in which Luke out-and-out attacked the Jedi for allowing the rise of Sidious, and questioned the idea of whether it was right for them to try and exert control over the Force in the first place broke new ground imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure, it's not necessarily a criticism, but the way in which Luke out-and-out attacked the Jedi for allowing the rise of Sidious, and questioned the idea of whether it was right for them to try and exert control over the Force in the first place broke new ground imo.

That's fair and it is one of the parts I did like about the character.

Except Yoda and Obi-Wan already reflected on those issues post ROTS.

Yoda realised the mistake of the Jedi in the final Clone Wars episodes. And as a result they are more pacifist in their ways post ROTS, and presumably taught their new insights to Luke.

It's cool and all for Luke to bring those issues to the audiences attention on the big screen, but he should already have thought those things through. Especially given how he overthrew the Sith through Love for his Father, and not via his Lightsaber.

I agree with Hamill that Skywalker should have been wiser than that by this point in time. Instead of needing Rey and another lesson from Yoda to put his mind straight again.

Originally posted by Darth Thor


I agree with Hamill that Skywalker should have been wiser than that by this point in time. Instead of needing Rey and another lesson from Yoda to put his mind straight again.

And there comes to one of the points I didn't like about his character.

His appearance was pretty great though.

Still overall I prefer his Legends incarnation.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
And there comes to one of the points I didn't like about his character.

His appearance was pretty great though.




Yeah didn't like how they portrayed him in the first 2/3rds of the movie, but Loved him in the Final Act, "And I will not be The Last Jedi" being my favorite line.

So Hamill's right, and I see why he flip flops about his feelings on how the character was portrayed.


Btw does anyone know how much Hamill was paid? I hope it was a good $10mill at least.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Except Yoda and Obi-Wan already reflected on those issues post ROTS.

Yoda realised the mistake of the Jedi in the final Clone Wars episodes. And as a result they are more pacifist in their ways post ROTS, and presumably taught their new insights to Luke.

It's cool and all for Luke to bring those issues to the audiences attention on the big screen, but he should already have thought those things through. Especially given how he overthrew the Sith through Love for his Father, and not via his Lightsaber.

I agree with Hamill that Skywalker should have been wiser than that by this point in time. Instead of needing Rey and another lesson from Yoda to put his mind straight again. Its more to do with the hubris of the Jedi rather than their use of violence, he is questioning whether they should exist at all.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its more to do with the hubris of the Jedi rather than their use of violence, he is questioning whether they should exist at all.


I get that, but he clearly changed his mind after meeting Rey and Yoda putting him in his place. Which would be fine if Kylo just turned end of the last film. But he turned years ago and Luke shouldn't have been all miserable about it for 10+ years, which is where I agree with Hamill.

Also not sure who Luke was expecting to stop Snoke and Kylo. Perhaps he figured Kylo would kill Snoke or vice versa, but then that still leaves 1 BIG problem in the Galaxy. So a bit premature for him to decide the Jedi should be no more IMO.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I get that, but he clearly changed his mind after meeting Rey and Yoda putting him in his place. Which would be fine if Kylo just turned end of the last film. But he turned years ago and Luke shouldn't have been all miserable about it for 10+ years, which is where I agree with Hamill.

Also not sure who Luke was expecting to stop Snoke and Kylo. Perhaps he figured Kylo would kill Snoke or vice versa, but then that still leaves 1 BIG problem in the Galaxy. So a bit premature for him to decide the Jedi should be no more IMO. He lost faith in the Jedi and himself yeah, only an external influence could have restored some of that faith, which he'd cut himself off from.

Although I feel it's implied that Luke spent a lot of those years not in hiding but searching for answers.

And that only feeds back into the idea of pacisifism. The first thing Luke does when he meets Rey is ridicule the idea of him coming out of hiding lightsaber swinging to put down the First Order, it's that idea of the Jedi as intergalactic problem solvers that he's lost faith in.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He lost faith in the Jedi and himself yeah, only an external influence could have restored some of that faith, which he'd cut himself off from.


That's Mark's point. He's the Jedi Master and should be capable of counseling himself. Like Mark said, if this was a few weeks or months, then fair enough, but not for years.



Originally posted by Beniboybling

And that only feeds back into the idea of pacisifism. The first thing Luke does when he meets Rey is ridicule the idea of him coming out of hiding lightsaber swinging to put down the First Order,



Now That I liked!


Originally posted by Beniboybling
it's that idea of the Jedi as intergalactic problem solvers that he's lost faith in.


Then he should have said that, instead of saying "The Jedi Must End!"


Problem is he wasn't reforming the Jedi, which he could have done being the only one. But instead He was advocating their extinction. And this before he's helped in sorting out the Snoke and Kylo problem.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's Mark's point. He's the Jedi Master and should be capable of counseling himself. Like Mark said, if this was a few weeks or months, then fair enough, but not for years.Right, it's challenging the idea of Luke as the wise Jedi Master we expected him to be, as opposed to the flawed and susceptible individual we're presented with, who's become deeply disillusioned and lost hope.

That's the cynical conclusion he comes to yeah, that the Jedi and the concept of what it is to be a Jedi are beyond saving. Could he have taken a more optimistic reformist approach? Yeah. But that wouldn't have driven conflict, like Rian said, for Rey it's the hardest thing for her to possibly hear in that moment.

I think the new SW will find it's fanbase. It will be interesting to see if it is as dedicated, faithful and supportive as the fanbase of the OT, or the part that stoped to care after TLJ. I don't think Disney cares or needs those fans but I have a hard time seeing the new fans watching this movie in the cinemas more than twice. If they enjoy it and are ready to pay for it, more power to them, it's good that people find things they love and care about. They also should accept that not everyone shares their taste and just ignore it, like I for example will ignore upcoming Disney movies (at least in cinemas).

I have seen it more than twice in the theatre, paid for the visual dictionary for the film, and already pre purchased it on my Ps4. So I'd say you're wrong and Star Wars will be fine. I bet most of you haters will see the next film after your period ends. You're just hurt and clearly in pain.

Disney does care about the fans because without them the brand is useless. You just didn't like the product so it's end of the world type overreactions. Be a man and quit being so damn emotional.