Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Before reboot characters. Who is taking this?

Didn't they fight once and MM won? Mind control might have been involved though.

Originally posted by basilisk
Didn't they fight once and MM won? Mind control might have been involved though.

The Gray Man was controlling him, and he was winning. And then Fate broke the link and Cap was just standing there, wondering where he was, when J'onn uppercutted him with everything he had.

Originally posted by cdtm
The Gray Man was controlling him, and he was winning. And then Fate broke the link and Cap was just standing there, wondering where he was, when J'onn uppercutted him with everything he had.

Yep, and it effectively was a sucker punch.

Captain Marvel Stomps

In a straight up physical altercation, CM would win. But, he's pretty vulnerable to mind phuckery so MM should win

Thought the Wisdom of Solomon protected him? Or was it the Stamina....

J'onn.

Them going for a literal slugfest and Captain Marvel coming on top isn't proof of anything, since forums fights specifically say the characters aren't retarded.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Thought the Wisdom of Solomon protected him? Or was it the Stamina....

Didn't protect him from Brainwave in J'onn's JSA run, when he forced Billy and Adam to both say Shazam. (Not exactly certain why Teth had to be affected too.)

Cap wins. He again sodomized J'onn in Underworld Unleashed when he literally choked out J'onn.

yeah i tend to agree with you. i think i'd take cap more often than not. not entirely sure how the tp would pan out. adam resisted though, so i could see cap doing at least the same. it's close imo, maybe 6/10 cap.

J'onn also said he could have shut Adam down on the spot, but chose not to (So he could lecture him against being a mass murderer, I guess..)

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah i tend to agree with you. i think i'd take cap more often than not. not entirely sure how the tp would pan out. adam resisted though, so i could see cap doing at least the same. it's close imo, maybe 6/10 cap. Eh, Adam's mental state was specifically balls-out-to-the-wall-rage-and-grief. He basically traumatized J'onn with his pain. It's unfair to make that equivalent to a Billy capability. It could easily be argued that J'onn beats him with telepathy - Billy really doesn't have the feats to compete.

Really, the only way J'onn loses here is if he just fights him like he did in the 80s...punch for punch.

Martian Manhunter destroys the D-list Superman.

i'm not sure it was just mental state was it? didn't he basically drown him in his darkness or something at one point? i mean his 'general' darkness? either way, not a feat billy could duplicate in the same way obviously, but seems he would have the willpower to prevent a tp win. guess what i would need to see are times cap was mindraped, and by whom. i seem to recall him being able to shrug off control in the past, but i know there were a couple times he WAS eff'd by tp. if the evidence says he falls more often to tp than not, i'll concede mm takes it. but cap is considerably stronger, likely considerably faster, far more durable and a single charged blow lands, or a blast of lightning hits and mm goes nighty-nighty. the only way mm can win this IS through tp. like i said, if there is enough evidence to show billy being so vulnerable, i'll agree with you. if he really is that vulnerable to tp though, it would be...kinda sad.
/shrug

J'onn also drowned Adam in the loss of Mars.

The four issue mini was written by two totally different writers, with Ostrander writing the final two issues and almost completely contradicting the first part. And he is the authority on Martian Manhunter, having wrote his definitive mini series and all..

I honestly think J'onn would be a more compelling character if he wasn't super strong, fast or durable, but had all his other powers.

Originally posted by cdtm
J'onn also drowned Adam in the loss of Mars.

The four issue mini was written by two totally different writers, with Ostrander writing the final two issues and almost completely contradicting the first part. And he is the authority on Martian Manhunter, having wrote his definitive mini series and all..

huh, i'm not sure i've seen that. that would def lend a lot of credence to phil's and others' stance. how'd the fight go down?

and smurph, i tend to agree with you. i've always found mm to be such a strange character. i mean when he was created, did the creator just say "let's just go ahead and give him every random power you can think of!!1!"? just so odd. limiting him in some ways would be sooo much better.

Originally posted by leonidas
huh, i'm not sure i've seen that. that would def lend a lot of credence to phil's and others' stance. how'd the fight go down?

and smurph, i tend to agree with you. i've always found mm to be such a strange character. i mean when he was created, did the creator just say "let's just go ahead and give him every random power you can think of!!1!"? just so odd. limiting him in some ways would be sooo much better.

I've read a few of his early appearances, and he was more a detective who used his powers when necessary than a superhero. I don't know if it's true, but I had read somewhere he didn't even have the whole flying brick thing going for him until the JLA started. I do know that an editor didn't want Superman and Batman used much with the JLA to keep from hurting sales of their solo comics(so those early days were often more cameos and an excuse kept them from being involved) and allegedly, can't remember where I read this, but supposedly​J'onn was used as a flying brick to fill Superman's role.

Originally posted by Smurph
I honestly think J'onn would be a more compelling character if he wasn't super strong, fast or durable, but had all his other powers. They pretty much write him as though he isn't super strong, fast, or durable most of the time as it is... otherwise frankly he wouldn't job as much.

Jobbing aside though, while CM should win if it was just limited to a slugfest, I think MM can win via TP or somehow outsmarting CM. Billy is always written like a dope, or at least like a not very bright kid, and he's been mind controlled a few times. Unless he really has some good showings against TP on panel (not transferred from Adam) I think he's going to lose it.

I can see something happening like CM grabs MM and yells Shazam! only for MM to go intangible at the last second and the lighting hits Billy instead.

Split.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not sure it was just mental state was it? didn't he basically drown him in his darkness or something at one point? i mean his 'general' darkness? either way, not a feat billy could duplicate in the same way obviously, but seems he would have the willpower to prevent a tp win. guess what i would need to see are times cap was mindraped, and by whom. i seem to recall him being able to shrug off control in the past, but i know there were a couple times he WAS eff'd by tp. if the evidence says he falls more often to tp than not, i'll concede mm takes it. but cap is considerably stronger, likely considerably faster, far more durable and a single charged blow lands, or a blast of lightning hits and mm goes nighty-nighty. the only way mm can win this IS through tp. like i said, if there is enough evidence to show billy being so vulnerable, i'll agree with you. if he really is that vulnerable to tp though, it would be...kinda sad.
/shrug The confrontation is basically J'onn telepathically freezing Black Adam , but still alowing him the 'priviliege of thought'. Adam goes all angry face and J'onn starts to struggle saying "your mind..so strong" allowing BA to scream SHAZAM and zap J'onn. Then he does it again. Then Black Adam says that J'onn is still trying to regain control , and gives him the memories of all those he killed, traumatizing J'onn.

Now, I have 3 problems with this, and how it applies to Captain Marvel:
a). Would things have gone different if J'onn didn't give him the 'privilege of thought'? What if he had tried to to MORE than just keep him in place? Which brings me to my next point..
b). Martian Manhunter isn't just 'I can read/control our mind' - he can literally pull the entire Justice League along with Spectre to the astral plane:
https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2647101-1.png
https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2647102-2.png
He could just mind-dump Captain Marvel.
c). Captain Marvel doesn't have the feats to compete. J'onn humiliates characters who ACTUALLY have ridiculous telepathic resistance feats, and Billy isn't among the group. The burden of proof would have to be on Billy's side, and he doesn't have anything.

i agree 100% burden of proof is on billy's side, which is why i was asking if he has any note-worthy feats to suggest he could resist jonn. if he doesn't he loses, pretty simple. it is a bit sad if he has none though. that would really lessen cm in my mind. he could be beaten by any number of characters pretty easily that way if he has no feats--and i freely admit that i can't really come up with any off the top of my head, so....barring some showings, i guess i....don't really have much of a leg to stand on as regards my initial assessment.

Cap resisted Neron's influence better than J'onn did if that helps.

yeah, i know that but didn't bring it up because i think it was more magic-based control than regular tp-style control. and cm is ridiculous vs magic. we'd need some proof of him handling other standard tp users and i can't think of any instances at all. hell, he seems to have very rarely faced off against any even.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_tYiCGgNLJ8c/RtWJJ-lompI/AAAAAAAACKo/maYwfvJIQDI/s1600-h/fight0147-c.jpg





http://secretearths.blogspot.com/2007/08/black-adam-versus-captain-marvel-black.html?m=1



Here it is.



Brainwave Jr. forced Billy to say the word.

I believe this is the same Brainwave Maxima punked (And while powerful, J'onn has been established as being a notch above in JLA Death of Superman, when he was disguised as Bloodwynd.)

Brainwave suckerpunched Cap while he was fighting Adam.

How do you suckerpunch with tp?

Either way, it proves Cap isn't immune to it.

When you are not even aware of the attack. And Brainwave was amped due to Mr Mind.

there was also some allusion to the fact that braniwave worked around solomon's influence or something? not sure how true that is. regardless, it's hard to prove given his lack of battles against tp'ers.

H2H, I'd go with Billy outpunching him. J'onn, if he's smart though, should probably take it.

Originally posted by leonidas
there was also some allusion to the fact that braniwave worked around solomon's influence or something? not sure how true that is. regardless, it's hard to prove given his lack of battles against tp'ers. It'a also hard to argue the fact that, ignoring everything J''onn has ever done and Cap doesn't have the feats of resisitng, at the very least, J'onn can make Cap say Shazam, then KO Billy.