How bad of a combatant is Valkorion?

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slayne
Exactly how bad is the Immortal Emperor in a combat situation?

Kurk
He'd lose a bar fight

Azronger
Absolutely shit. His idiocy has been detailed here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=641002

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16092749#post16092749

darthbane77
He's not a bad combatant. Being taken off guard isn't grounds for being a poor combatant.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Kurk
He'd lose a bar fight

SunRazer
Originally posted by darthbane77
He's not a bad combatant. Being taken off guard isn't grounds for being a poor combatant.

It is when you start ignoring people that you know for a fact are your enemies and have lethal weapons, and just start giving up your back to them.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by slayne
Exactly how bad is the Immortal Emperor in a combat situation?
Had a lengthy conversation with member SunRazer about this matter. Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=641979&pagenumber=7

To be honest, he is not a bad fighter. He is officially credited for being a brilliant tactician.

However, he could afford to be a bit careless in a combat situation because he could cheat death (when the Outlander impaled his avatar, he infiltrated the mind of his opponent and laughed while doing so). He did not seek formal training in Jedi dueling arts either so that is a minus as well.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by darthbane77
He's not a bad combatant. Being taken off guard isn't grounds for being a poor combatant.
thumb up

Virtually anybody can be caught off-guard in the heat of a struggle.

Beniboybling
But it takes a special kind of person to do so consistently. sad

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But it takes a special kind of person to do so consistently. sad
True.

1. Darth Vader managed to grab Palpatine from behind and throw him into a shaft.

2. Han Solo managed to shoot Palpatine from behind, disabling his last clone.

Seems like Palpatine has a knack of getting knocked off from behind. thumb up

---

The only truly embarrassing moment for Tenebrae in a fight is when he got too close to Hero of Tython to realize that the latter might score a hit on him. Perhaps, he was really frustrated during this time due to disruption of his ritual and consequent loss of power. However, people have picked this single example and blown it out of proportion.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
True.

1. Darth Vader managed to grab Palpatine from behind and throw him into a shaft.Being stabbed in the back by someone you believed to be completely under your control isn't the same as being stabbed in the back by someone trying to kill you. eek!

Because he was too weak to defend himself yeah. sad

laughing out loud

Do better.

darthbane77
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
thumb up

Virtually anybody can be caught off-guard in the heat of a struggle. Pretty much. Like you said, even Palpatine was taken off guard on a couple occasions, as was Maul in TPM, among others.

Unbowed
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Being stabbed in the back by someone you believed to be completely under your control isn't the same as being stabbed in the back by someone trying to kill you. eek!

Because he was too weak to defend himself yeah. sad

laughing out loud

Do better.
How about when Savage ran into him like a freight train?

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Unbowed
How about when Savage ran into him like a freight train?

And he laughed it off like a Japanese school girl?

Face it TORCvnts. Valkorion is shit.

Geistalt
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
2. Han Solo managed to shoot Palpatine from behind, disabling his last clone
'cept he meant to die so he could Grand Theft Anakin.



Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And he laughed it off like a Japanese school girl?

Face it TORCvnts. Valkorion is shit.
thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And he laughed it off like a Japanese school girl?

https://i.warosu.org/data/cgl/img/0081/57/1425518338865.gif

The Merchant
That scene where he charges at HOT while using force lightning and HOT blocking it then slicing through him was pretty stupid.

Unbowed
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And he laughed it off like a Japanese school girl?

What's your point, dickhead? How does that negate the fact that he was taken by surprise?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Unbowed
How about when Savage ran into him like a freight train? Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And he laughed it off like a Japanese school girl?

Face it TORCvnts. Valkorion is shit. Some freight train. laughing out loud thumb up

Originally posted by Unbowed
What's your point, dickhead? How does that negate the fact that he was taken by surprise? He wasn't. facepalm

Petrus
If Valky tried harder, he would handily eviscerate most in combat, if all his power hype and his accolades are actually true.

SunRazer
Originally posted by The Merchant
That scene where he charges at HOT while using force lightning and HOT blocking it then slicing through him was pretty stupid.

Yeah, to date this is still an unrivaled display of lack of combative common sense.

Petrus
Agreed. If he tried harder tho...

Zenwolf
Originally posted by The Merchant
That scene where he charges at HOT while using force lightning and HOT blocking it then slicing through him was pretty stupid.

Tbh I really cannot think of anything worse than this for combat..it's the single most dumbest move ever anyone has ever done in SW.

SunRazer
Originally posted by Petrus
Agreed. If he tried harder tho...

Maybe if the writers did better, you mean.

Rockydonovang
All his hype/accolades only apply as of the tor era, and hence have no bearing on how he stands against true powerhouses like Luke,yoda, sids, Jaina, anakin and plagueis,

or mace

or dooku

Petrus
Originally posted by SunRazer
Maybe if the writers did better, you mean.

Exactly.

Zenwolf
It would have made more sense, if it had just been the Hero moving forward, force Vitiate back until he had been cornered and then given the killing blow. There's really 0 justification for Vitiate moving forward, his combat sense is literally 0.

Rockydonovang
that's what vitiate gets for ruining revan as a character in sor

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Zenwolf
It would have made more sense, if it had just been the Hero moving forward, force Vitiate back until he had been cornered and then given the killing blow. There's really 0 justification for Vitiate moving forward, his combat sense is literally 0.
OR Tenebrae was frustrated in that fight due to loss of power? Keep in mind that he could cheat death at that point....

Conversely, you have the example of his fight against Revan where he made sure that Revan would not get close to him to deliver a killing blow.

Tenebrae was very calculative in combat situations prior to forming VOICES.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OR he was frustrated in that fight due to loss of power? Keep in mind that he could cheat death....

Conversely, you have the example of his fight against Revan where he made sure that Revan would not get close to him to deliver a killing blow.

So why would he get in close to the Hero with a ranged attack? It makes no sense from where you look at it.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Zenwolf
So why would he get in close to the Hero with a ranged attack? It makes no sense from where you look at it.
Frustration probably! Loss of power can impair judgement. And if you can cheat death on top of that, recklessness doesn't matters much.

Tenebrae was very calculative in combat situations prior to forming VOICES. Even with VOICES, he fought well at times. Look at this fight against the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga (perfectly executed).

SunRazer
There was nothing perfectly executed about the Strike Team fight, lmao. He had ample time to gather his powers and was able to stand from afar in complete safety and assail them with a Storm. The outcome was entirely a product of his far greater Force power; nothing to do with his combative talent at all.

Beniboybling
And had one of them attempted a saber throw he'd have been done for. thumb up

SunRazer
Scourge would probably save him. smile

Beniboybling
That's what he'd think, cluelessly unaware that his own lackey has been lying to him for 300 years. smile

Unbowed
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Some freight train. laughing out loud thumb up

He wasn't. facepalm
Ever since you joined the forum there's a village somewhere missing its idiot. You should stop posting and attend to your duties.

Beniboybling
And miss out on Unbowed continue to humiliate himself? I'll pass. sad

Unbowed
That all the cleverness you could muster up?laughing out loud

Since you're such a fan of quotes:
http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-young-man-young-man-your-arm-s-too-short-to-box-with-god-james-weldon-johnson-241173.jpg

Beniboybling
Lol, that's cute.

Unbowed
Maybe call your little buddy Tempest in for backup...

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Unbowed
Maybe call your little buddy Tempest in for backup... To what end friend? It only takes one set of eyes to watch you continue making a clown of yourself. laughing out loud

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by SunRazer
There was nothing perfectly executed about the Strike Team fight, lmao. He had ample time to gather his powers and was able to stand from afar in complete safety and assail them with a Storm. The outcome was entirely a product of his far greater Force power; nothing to do with his combative talent at all.
Jedi also had same amount of time to gather their powers and/or plan their moves so this is lame point.

Tenebrae decided to hit first and forced all of the Jedi to defend themselves. By doing that, he trapped the Jedi in the web of his overwhelming power, denying them an opportunity to reorganize and go on the offensive. This is combative talent at display.

What if the Jedi had attacked first?

An army on the move sets the momentum of battle, right?

Beniboybling
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What if the Jedi struck first?He prolly would have died. sad

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Beniboybling
He prolly would have died. sad
Perhaps.

DarthAnt66
Haven't read the first three pages. My thoughts:

Despite Vitiate's portrayed stupidity in the Revan novel and SWTOR vanilla, I imagine he's solid.

He trained under Marka Ragnos, who is hyped as the greatest Sith juggernaut of the ancients.

The lightsaber techniques of the Eternal Empire must have also came from Vitiate's own knowledge.

Frankly though, he's never needed to use a lightsaber except in the two cases where he was weakened - Kaas and Ziost.

He lost to the Hero both times, but the Hero's the greatest combatant of the age, so that's not necessarily a dishonor.

Beniboybling
Trained under Ragnos? More fanon I presume.

And their knowledge of lightsaber techniques could have come from a number of sources. erm

DarthAnt66
SoR revealed Ragnos was Vitiate's master. thumb up

We've even had numerous threads on this, kek.

DarthAnt66
http://i.imgur.com/K5uqCAj.png

Beniboybling
Uhuh, I was asking for proof that he trained him, in lightsaber combat specifically.

DarthAnt66
If Vitiate had a master, that means he was trained. Obviously I'm guessing lightsaber combat was included given how important such combat was to Ragnos. I see no reason why Vitiate would not have been trained in it.

Beniboybling
No that's your assumption. And it contradicts previous accounts that state after being given the title of Lord, he returned to Medriaas to study the dark side in private.

And yeah you're guessing. Even if we assumed he received some form of training. We don't know what form it took, and lightsaber combat being important to Ragnos doesn't preclude that being the same for Vitiate, which clearly wasn't the case.

DarthAnt66
Lmfao what. Ragnos being Vitiate's master means he taught him. How thick are you. The Medriaas account was just Nyriss' theory, IIRC.

Yeah, I'm allowed to guess, lmfao. A lot of what we know on the ancients are based on guessing.

IMO, Ragnos trained Vitiate in saber combat. thumb up Believe it or not, IDC.

Beniboybling
No it doesn't dear, Baras and Zash acted as the player's master yet taught you shit. Vader and Dooku were apprenticed to Sidious yet their training amounted to little more than a library card to the Sith Archives. Frankly Vitiate merely answering to Ragnos as his foremost superior would fulfill the requirement of "master". The idea that Ragnos made Vitiate an atypical RoT style apprentice being a flimsy assumption, nothing more, and one that fails to align with preexisting evidence in addition.

But sure, you're entitled to your own fanon, as long as you're aware it's conjecture. thumb up

SunRazer
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jedi also had same amount of time to gather their powers and/or plan their moves so this is lame point.

Tenebrae decided to hit first and forced all of the Jedi to defend themselves. By doing that, he trapped the Jedi in the web of his overwhelming power, denying them an opportunity to reorganize and go on the offensive. This is combative talent at display.

What if the Jedi had attacked first?

An army on the move sets the momentum of battle, right?

Uhm, Vitiate had all of the time the HoT spent fighting Scourge (and the time the other Jedi spent regrouping with HoT) to gather his powers, lol. It also took place right over DK, on his home turf. He had all the advantages coming into the fight. It was on his terms.

NTJack0
He's trash tier.

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