Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

To understand why this is a fact, we must analyse what he achieved on Nathema:



The effects of this nexus are unprecedented, literally killing every living thing on the planet, even the Force, absorbing all:



Vitiate himself absorbed said nexus and achieved its unprecedented power:



Infact, a thousand years after the ritual, its effects are still existent within Vitiate himself:





Vitiate as a product of the Ritual of Nathema became more powerful than any nexus ever seen. Another dark side nexus, is the vaunted Darth Sidious:



Darth Sidious is a very powerful dark side nexus, so much so that his energies tore the fabric of space:



As impressive as this may be, Vitiate himself has gained such energies that they leave voids in life and the force, infact he continuously feeds more and more after the Ritual:



Sources indicate that he is always feeding and draining others:







Vitiate eventually achieved so much power that he didn't even require a physical form to reduce Ziost to the same fate as Nathema:



He is infact repeatedly stated to be a literal embodiment of the dark side of the Force, with immeasurable power:









In conclusion:

Tenebrae was the literal manifestation of the most powerful dark side nexus ever seen. A manifestation powerful enough to reduce planets to lifeless voids in the Force as he became ever more powerful, no matter his form. He was quite literally the living embodiment of the dark side of the Force, even more destructive than the likes of Malachor V or the legendary Darth Nihilus.

https://m.popkey.co/6adbb6/K6oMm.gif

The typical reply of somebody with absolutely nothing to say.

Au contraire.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640242.html

Originally posted by AncientPower
Vitiate is the most powerful Dark Sider ever, As of stwor

Nope he's a literal dark side embodiment, try harder.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Au contraire.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640242.html

If only Tenebrae was a Sith in anything but blood.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nope he's a literal dark side embodiment, try harder.
Dooku is the "literal" center of the universe, try harder.

That's allegory from a novel full of similar quotes, I'd know because I've got four copies. These quotes aren't just fluffy comments, they are serious statements about his power repeated across all SWTOR media. The beautiful irony of SWTOR writers being so terrible is that it actually provides Vitiate a saving grace, they actually created a character who was the living embodiment of the dark side. As moronic as that is.

Originally posted by AncientPower
If only Tenebrae was a Sith in anything but blood.
if only "valk is a sith entitiy" was in past tense

If only you could read with any sense or comprehension

Originally posted by AncientPower
That's allegory from a novel full of similar quotes, I'd know because I've got four copies. These quotes aren't just fluffy comments, they are serious statements about his power repeated across all SWTOR media. The beautiful irony of SWTOR writers being so terrible is that it actually provides Vitiate a saving grace, they actually created a character who was the living embodiment of the dark side. As moronic as that is.
Regarding quotes which actually call valk an embodiment, that's all allegory across a single source with similar quotes.

Don't pretend you own the Encyclopedia or have ever actually played SWTOR.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Don't pretend you own the Encyclopedia or have ever actually played SWTOR.
I have played stwor.

And I don't need to the encyclopedia, literally all the quotes you posted which called valk an embodiment of the darkside were from one source.

And me not having an encyclopedia doesn't stop me from being able to identify hyperbole, a skill you clearly lack

It isn't hyperbole, and nor are these restricted to a single source, this is repeated in the Codex Entries, the novel and even in descriptions of videos.

If it were hyperbole, said statements wouldn't be bang in the center of official character descriptions. It's an Encyclopedia, get your head around that, it is stated to be a 100% factual source of official information right at the start.

Of the quotes you've provided, only two say anything about an embodiment and both come from the same source

reading is hard.

Regardless of whether vitiate is an embodiment or not, sidious is still better:
Originally posted by Geistalt
Au contraire.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640242.html

Are you that dense? Oh wait, it's you. The emphasis is not on the word embodiment.

I don't care if you want to blatantly ignore canonical statements in favor of a single laughably deliberate misinterpretation of a singular description in a single codex entry from a source predating the sources stating he isn't a Sith.

You can live in your fantasy of being covered in Sidious c*m all you like. Fact is your argument is as poor and irrelevant as it ever was.

P.S. You can't become more than an embodiment of something, so at the very best you can argue Sidious was one too.

Originally posted by AncientPower


I don't care if you want to blatantly ignore canonical statements in favor of a single laughably deliberate misinterpretation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2GN_jM1DuI

There's no canonical statement saying valk isn't a sith, just subjective statements from valk who is trying to be deceptive and off course non-canonical misinterpretations nad logical gymnastics.

Here are actual canonical statements, you should note more than one refer to all darksiders, not just sith lords:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640242.html

Also, no. You can become a stronger embodiment of something, english is hard

Oh give it a rest lmao.

Vitiate>Palpatine should be obvious tbh

So, here we see Vitiate adhering to the Sith Code.

Not only does Vitiate rely on the Code as a source of strength; he's also no longer a member of the Sith species (as per Revan).



It's hilarious to see people use fandumb wank and claim he's a "false Sith" or "not a Sith" when there's only out-of-universe evidence against it, though.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Au contraire.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640242.html
You take that seriously?

It is filled with misconceptions and excessive reaching.

I should've said Doylist evidence. Or just evidence.

Out-of-universe as in "objective." Proof that isn't skewed by a character's opinion.

Considering the only source that claims he isn't a Sith is Vitiate, a compulsive liar.

Just to bury the coffin on Vitiate's use of emotion:

Nope.

lul yes.



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hatred

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh give it a rest lmao.

Insolent wyrm. We all know that Vitiate is the most powerful embodiment of the Darkside of all time with Kun being above his post Nathema self incarnation and thus almost as powerful.

Despite the roundabout Kun wank this is a solid thread for quote compilation. Thanks.

Originally posted by AncientPower


No, some random Sith Sorceress achieved the exact same result on Ambria, without needing 8000 Sith Lords. Darth Nihilus would also go on to kill all life on a planet using his own power. It's clearly not unprecedented in the grand scheme of things, even if it may have been at the time.



The quote states nothing of the sort. It says the life force of the planets living things was used to prolong his age. Nothing more, nothing less. And the above quote, which states the ritual fueled his power, doesn't mean he absorbed the nexus either. It simply states what's written in the text: that the ritual fueled Vitiate's power. And to what extent is unknown, so claiming he absorbed the entire nexus is unsupported.



Based on a false interpretation of a quote, and thus irrelevant. Also canonically not true, since Plagueis' and Sidious' accolades establish him as Vitiate's superior as early as TPM anyway.



All Scourge's description of him tells us is that he is an exceptionally deep wound in the Force. This doesn't put him above Palpatine, who has similar descriptions attributed to him by Plagueis, Tyranus and Maul, and also his minion Blackhole (sub-Vader, I might add) has similar hype.

You also haven't proven that what Scourge described is somehow better than bursting open the fabric of space. If Vitiate was indeed more powerful than Palpatine, then we'd see him do it constantly, no?



Right, and this was only achieved due to Ziost being an exceptionally powerful dark side nexus. The spirit of Valkorion, more powerful than Vitiate, couldn't come close to achieving such results on his own, admitting that he couldn't defeat his own children, Arcann and Vaylin, without the Outlander's help. This is also apparent from his performances against his children, which weren't the most admirable, I must say. His best environmental feat is also just downing some ships, which he did while in the Outlander's body, and thus isn't appliccable to his spirit form. It pales in comparison to planetary devastation.



Palpatine has also been stated to be that, and also more powerful. Whatever Tenebrae thought of the Sith, it doesn't change the fact that he was described as such by the history books, sourcebooks, and the third person narrator of he Revan novel itself. So even folk like Plagueis are above him, by way of accolades and feats.



Yeah, no. Vitiate was at no point more destructive than Malachor or Nihilus, and Palpatine was more destructive with his Storms than Vitiate ever was. Also, this isn't a demolitions contest. Palpatine has more personal power than Vitiate could ever dream of, by way of accolades and feats.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641234.html

My only real gripe with Az here is that he doesn't appear to understand what "unprecedented" means.

Originally posted by Azronger
No, some random Sith Sorceress achieved the exact same result on Ambria, without needing 8000 Sith Lords. Darth Nihilus would also go on to kill all life on a planet using his own power. It's clearly not unprecedented in the grand scheme of things, even if it may have been at the time.


From what I'm reading, according to TCSWE and PoD it was unintentional. Though she was trying to bend the will of the planet, still that's pretty impressive regardless.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
From what I'm reading, according to TCSWE and PoD it was unintentional. Though she was trying to bend the will of the planet, still that's pretty impressive regardless.

Still, the results were the same.

No. Vitiate is not nor ever will be the strongest Dark Side Force User.

He is, and shall forever remain KMC's greatest meme. Greater than Bane. He is our An hero. He is Star Wars' shittiest character, he is and always will be a shitty low budget indie rehash of a better more successful studios character.

Got any actual evidence to support Vitiate being amped? Such as explicit quotes or statements, instead of baseless conjecture?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
No. Vitiate is not nor ever will be the strongest Dark Side Force User.

He is, and shall forever remain KMC's greatest meme. Greater than Bane. He is our An hero. He is Star Wars' shittiest character, he is and always will be a shitty low budget indie rehash of a better more successful studios character.

clapping

Originally posted by slayne
Got any actual evidence to support Vitiate being amped? Such as explicit quotes or statements, instead of baseless conjecture?

I presented far more than baseless conjecture in my post by comparing Valkorion's spirit achievements to Vitiate's. The latter's are infinitely better, despite the former being canonically more powerful. The conclusion to make here is that Vitiate was massively amped by the dark side nexus of Ziost. And yes, there are quotes that confirm this too. They are included in my Ultimate Palpatine Essay.

Originally posted by Azronger
I presented far more than baseless conjecture in my post by comparing Valkorion's spirit achievements to Vitiate's. The latter's are infinitely better, despite the former being canonically more powerful. The conclusion to make here is that Vitiate was massively amped by the dark side nexus of Ziost. And yes, there are quotes that confirm this too. They are included in my Ultimate Palpatine Essay.
Yeah, no. Valkorion's power/showings can't be compared to Vitiate's in any circumstance whatsoever. They were channeled through an infinitely weaker vessel (who was recovering from carbonite poisoning, no less) and Vitiate's spirit was significantly wounded.

As for Ziost, you still haven't proven anything. None of the quotes you provded ever made note of Vitiate having an amp, and, even if they did, he was still on the brink of death and only strong enough to travel. Such an amp would elevate him to near-normal levels, in which the feat still remains of the same quality.

Originally posted by slayne Yeah, no. Valkorion's power/showings can't be compared to Vitiate's in any circumstance whatsoever. They were channeled through an infinitely weaker vessel (who was recovering from carbonite poisoning, no less) and Vitiate's spirit was significantly wounded.

Um, yes, Valkorion's power was channelled through a vessel... which means he could access more power than he could without a vessel, kinda like Vitiate's spirit form. Your point?



Yes I have. Dark side nexi amplify darksiders. This is Star Wars 101.

No idea what you're attempting to get at here, though. Vitiate's spirit was amped to his normal levels by the nexus... so? I never stated otherwise.

Did you even read my post? The vessel was infinitely weaker, Vitiate's spirit was heavily wounded (unlike Ziost, he didn't have the help of the Yavin incident) and the vessel in question was still recovering from five straight years of carbonite poisoning.

It's pretty clear the two are incomparable, lmfao.


Again, do you have a quote that explicitly says Vitiate had an amp? If not, then your point still remains conjecture. As for the second bit, you said that Vitiate's feat was only achieved because Ziost was a DS nexus - implying he wouldn't be able to do it under normal conditions. Which I countered there.

Originally posted by slayne
Did you even read my post? The vessel was infinitely weaker, Vitiate's spirit was heavily wounded (unlike Ziost, he didn't have the help of the Yavin incident) and the vessel in question was still recovering from five straight years of carbonite poisoning.

It's pretty clear the two are incomparable, lmfao.

I did, and you're not making any sense. No clue why you keep on insisting that the vessel was "infinitely weaker." Weaker than what? There's only one vessel present in this comparison.

And Vitiate's spirit wasn't wounded on Ziost as he unleashed the Death Field. The codex stated he went in there to replenish himself, so he wouldn't have destroyed his source of power if he wasn't replenished.

But let me make this clear for you one more time: There's the spirits of Valkorion and Vitiate, the former being the stronger of the two, so obviously his Force abilities would also be more potent. Then we add in a vessel for Valkorion to boost his powers even further. The vessel may not have been as strong as Valkorion's original body, but it is still a vessel regardless and made Valkorion stronger, which he admitted himself.

So we now have Valkorion in Outlander's body > Valkorion's spirit > Vitiate's spirit. And despite this, even Valkorion in Outlander's body could come close to what Vitiate pulled on Ziost despite using his max power, so logic dictates Vitiate was amped there.



I don't need any sort of quote to confirm that when I've got plenty of quotes that are just fine to anyone who can do a little bit of thinking on their own. I'll make this simple for you:

>Ziost is a dark side nexus
>Dark side nexi amp darksiders
>Vitiate's spirit is a dark side entity

One only has to connect the dots. It's not hard. Spoiler: Vitiate, as a dark sider entity on a dark side nexus, was amped

And I was never contesting the notion that flesh-and-blood Vitiate could do the Ziost feat. I was saying Vitiate as a spirit isn't capable of pulling it off with no amp.

So, in other words, the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that spirit Valkorion is weaker than spirit Vitiate + Ziost.

Originally posted by Geistalt
So, here we see Vitiate adhering to the Sith Code.

Not only does Vitiate rely on the Code as a source of strength; he's also no longer a member of the Sith species (as per Revan).



It's hilarious to see people use fandumb wank and claim he's a "false Sith" or "not a Sith" when there's only out-of-universe evidence against it, though.

LMFAO @ Nyriss conjecture.

'cept that quote's from the narrator.

Even if it's from Scourge's perspective (ie he's just realizing that), whatever presumedly omniscient medium relates that knowledge doesn't deny it.

Originally posted by Azronger
No, some random Sith Sorceress achieved the exact same result on Ambria, without needing 8000 Sith Lords. Darth Nihilus would also go on to kill all life on a planet using his own power. It's clearly not unprecedented in the grand scheme of things, even if it may have been at the time.

LMFAO.

She required an orbalisk that literally pierced the sky, which took centuries to build and then she tried to enact a complex Sith ritual, which summoned more power than Naga Sadow used to cause supernovas but it failed. The orbalisk exploded and they all died in the shockwave.

I also love how you tried to take a pot shot at Vitiate using 8,000 Sith Lords against him when you're only serving to hype the nexus.

Originally posted by Azronger
The quote states nothing of the sort. It says the life force of the planets living things was used to prolong his age. Nothing more, nothing less. And the above quote, which states the ritual fueled his power, doesn't mean he absorbed the nexus either. It simply states what's written in the text: that the ritual fueled Vitiate's power. And to what extent is unknown, so claiming he absorbed the entire nexus is unsupported.

Lmfao, can you read? Vitiate was at the center of the ritual, the focus of the ritual. Seeing as your friend likes to quote fallible characters, namely Nyriss:





Originally posted by Azronger
Based on a false interpretation of a quote, and thus irrelevant. Also canonically not true, since Plagueis' and Sidious' accolades establish him as Vitiate's superior as early as TPM anyway.

It isn't even remotely false, but your denial is delectable. None of which apply to him.

Originally posted by Azronger
All Scourge's description of him tells us is that he is an exceptionally deep wound in the Force. This doesn't put him above Palpatine, who has similar descriptions attributed to him by Plagueis, Tyranus and Maul, and also his minion Blackhole (sub-Vader, I might add) has similar hype.

You also haven't proven that what Scourge described is somehow better than bursting open the fabric of space. If Vitiate was indeed more powerful than Palpatine, then we'd see him do it constantly, no?

Oh for the love of Christ.

1.This isn't Scourge's description, this is the narrative.

2.He acts absolutely nothing like a Wound in the Force, it is
exceedingly clear in its reference to the Void of Nathema.

3.Because Vitiate doesn't need to rip open the fabric of space(which by the way could easily be a reference to his Force Storms given that Palpatine isn't portrayed as doing anything of the sort in the Dark Empire series). He was quite literally describe as a physical shell barely holding together the
energy that flowed from him in 'palpable waves'.

Originally posted by Azronger
Right, and this was only achieved due to Ziost being an exceptionally powerful dark side nexus. The spirit of Valkorion, more powerful than Vitiate, couldn't come close to achieving such results on his own, admitting that he couldn't defeat his own children, Arcann and Vaylin, without the Outlander's help. This is also apparent from his performances against his children, which weren't the most admirable, I must say. His best environmental feat is also just downing some ships, which he did while in the Outlander's body, and thus isn't appliccable to his spirit form. It pales in comparison to planetary devastation.

Vitiate is never stated to be capable of drawing on Ziost, and your entire claim falls flat when a far more powerful nexus in Yavin IV was clearly incapable of sustaining such a feat.

Valkorion no longer had any intentions of devouring worlds, but you'd know that if you actually knew anything about his character.

He couldn't defeat Arcann or Vaylin by himself because he escaped his own death by entering the Outlander's mind. Good Lord.

Originally posted by Azronger
Palpatine has also been stated to be that, and also more powerful. Whatever Tenebrae thought of the Sith, it doesn't change the fact that he was described as such by the history books, sourcebooks, and the third person narrator of he Revan novel itself. So even folk like Plagueis are above him, by way of accolades and feats.

This is getting painful to read.

You can't be more powerful than a literal embodiment of the very thing you're powerful in.

All of which are sources predating the revelation that he was never actually a Sith.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, no. Vitiate was at no point more destructive than Malachor or Nihilus, and Palpatine was more destructive with his Storms than Vitiate ever was. Also, this isn't a demolitions contest. Palpatine has more personal power than Vitiate could ever dream of, by way of accolades and feats.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t641234.html

Meetra describes Nathema, and by extension, Vitiate, as far worse than either of them.

Ah here comes Force Storm crutching, I hope you realise he isn't even remotely the only person to use these, right? And no, destroying half the surface of Coruscant, gradually, whilst amped by Byss and 20,000,000,000 people providing sustenance isn't the same as rendering Ziost a lifeless void in the Force in the space of two minutes as a weakened spirit.

If only those accolades weren't rendered null by the fact Vitiate, as Geistalt likes to (hilariously) point out, was literally transformed into an embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force.

By the way, the entire Sith Entity Codex Entry you like to point out also predates all of the mountainous statements from Lead Writers, newer Codex Entries, newer Valkorion statements and better yet, common sense.

Yeah; he should be stronger than Palps



but muh canonical statements.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Even if it's from Scourge's perspective (ie he's just realizing that), whatever presumedly omniscient medium relates that knowledge doesn't deny it.

Yeh, but he still gets it all from Nyriss who then takes him to Nathema to prove it. This is only echoing what she says on the way there.

Originally posted by AncientPower
To understand why this is a fact.

http://brightcove04.o.brightcove.com/4221396001/4221396001_5278381352001_5278375061001-vs.jpg

AP, this isn't hard bud.

Valk saying he's beyond being a sith or light and dark is just bs and part of his act with the outlander(and we know valk was just talking crap with his pitch). Taking his word seriously when he's lying over out of universe/objective statements is beyond stupid.

Valk's a sith entity, and hence is forever will be sub-plagueis trash

Debatable; Plagueis' quote only labels him as superior to all prior Sith Lords.



And Valk has no such rank.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Debatable; Plagueis' quote only labels him as superior to all prior Sith Lords.



And Valk has no such rank.
Sure, if you can show me something that says he isn't a sith lord anymore aside from valk's own clearly unreliable commentary

Now there's a burden of proof.

Where does it say Tenebrae as Valkorion was a Sith Lord?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Now there's a burden of proof.

Where does it say Tenebrae as Valkorion was a Sith Lord?

We can infer it from the fact he was a sith lord before being valk, and its never stated anywhere he stopped being a sith lord.

If you want valk to be designated from vitiate differently, you have to give a solid reason why.

As I see it, him being a sith lord, and still being noted for his mastery of darkside powers, in additiom to his designation as a sith enetiyy all indicate that he's a sith lord.

If you say so.

Sorry, but valk is just an extension of the character of vitiate. Vitaite was a sith lord, his exension is a sith lord too

Valkorion himself literally says that he isn't a Sith anymore. The reaching is honestly getting hilarious at this point.

Originally posted by slayne
Valkorion himself literally says that he isn't a Sith anymore. The reaching is honestly getting hilarious at this point.
valkorian's subjectiv eopinion when he is actively lying to the outlander isn't relevant

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
valkorian's subjectiv eopinion when he is actively lying to the outlander isn't relevant
It is. There's no proof whatsoever that he was 'lying' to the Outlander, and he himself is the only source we have on whether he, as Valkorion, is a Sith or not.

'Sith' being used in the context of the organization, not the species, the latter of which the much-touted 'ancient Sith entity' quote was referring to.

Originally posted by slayne
It is. There's no proof whatsoever that he was 'lying' to the Outlander, and he himself is the only source we have on whether he, as Valkorion, is a Sith or not.


1. Did you not pla the final chapter of kotfe? he was lying.

And no, he isn't the only source, we have an objective out of universe sourcemsaying that valkorian is a sith entity. Not an entity of the siht species, not valkorian, was a sith. No we have an explicit statement saying valkorian is a sith which is obvious given he's also objectively stated to rely on his "his mastery of the dark" despite all his crap about beyond light or dark.

Quotes, please.

Valkorion saying that he isn't a Sith supports my claim about the quote referring to Sith as a species, not an organization. Whereas there's nothing else at all supporting the notion that he's a Sith Lord based on the quote.
Lmfao what? Sith as a species have a natural affinity for the dark side, so, yeah, it makes sense that it fuels his power. But that doesn't make him a Sith Lord by any stretch of the imagination. Just because you use the dark side doesn't make you a Sith Lord, examples being the Son and every Dark Jedi in existence.

Originally posted by slayne
Valkorion himself literally says that he isn't a Sith anymore. The reaching is honestly getting hilarious at this point.

You're the one reaching. And failing to see the distinction.

And, either way, TPM Sidious is greater.



If anything, it's your "logic" that just bends over for Valk wank that's hilarious.

Originally posted by Geistalt
You're the one reaching. And failing to see the distinction.

And, either way, TPM Sidious is greater.



If anything, it's your "logic" that just bends over for Valk wank that's hilarious.
Enlighten me.

Vitiate is very much Sith at least until KotFE. He may have had alternate identities, but his Sith Emperor identity does fall under the quotes and is officially Sith per third person declarations. You can argue against it for Valkorion, but it is painfully ironic when you accuse the Plagueis brigade of reaching when your crew pulls shit like this.



You used the adjective "destructive" there. Vitiate was never more destructive than either Malachor or Nihilus; he never pulled entire fleets down from orbit and crushed every living thing on the planet; he is at best an equal of Nihilus in terms of destructive potency, since they are both capable of erasing all life on a plent with max effort.



Um, yes, I do (he taught all his Adepts this ability) but all this seems to be is another red herring, since it doesn't change the fact that Palpatine is the only one to have ever used it to such an extent.

Apprently you didn't read the link I posted. The Coruscant showing is a fraction of Palpatine's power. At his best he is a literal moon buster, as in he can annihilate them to their core in a matter of seconds. Far more destructive than Vitiate ever was. The details are in the thread I linked.



Already addressed.



I said already I'm willing to discard it. However, it doesn't exclude him from Palpatine's other accolades such as being the most powerful darksider in general.

Valk's own unreliable word when he's pulling a ruse over the outlander isn't suffecient to dismiss valk being a siht entity per out ofuiverse objective and hence reliable sources

There are quotes stating otherwise as of the RotE update (Ziost Vitiate):



And:



As well as:



He wasn't even a Sith as of RotE, let alone KotFE.

Wrong; he was no longer an Emperor. Sith is an adjective in this case.



Originally posted by Geistalt
You're the one reaching. And failing to see the distinction.

Between fact and opinion.

#feelsbeforereals

By all means, keep whining though.

yes Valk stopped being the sith emperor, how the fck does that prove he isn't a sith?

Originally posted by slayne
There are quotes stating otherwise as of the RotE update (Ziost Vitiate):



And:



As well as:



He wasn't even a Sith as of RotE, let alone KotFE.

That only means he is no longer the Sith Emperor, not that he isn't Sith in general. He is referred to as "Vitiate", his Sith identity, at that point, by both the characters and third person statements.

Which proves exactly nothing. They only knew him as Vitiate, not Tenebrae, so calling him by that name isn't proof that he's still a Sith. In general, I'd say his actively working against the Sith as an organization, combined with the 'former Emperor' quote, is proof that he isn't a Sith Lord as of RotE.

Whatever the case with Vitiate, the same certainly isn't true for Valkorion:

This is definitive proof that Valkorion, as of KotFE, is no longer a Sith Lord.

Originally posted by slayne
Which proves exactly nothing. They only knew him as Vitiate, not Tenebrae, so calling him by that name isn't proof that he's still a Sith. In general, I'd say his actively working against the Sith as an organization, combined with the 'former Emperor' quote, is proof that he isn't a Sith Lord as of RotE.

Third person statements know him as Tenebrae. Not sure what your point is anyway. If he's referred to as Vitiate, his Sith identity, then he is Sith.



Yeah, it's not me you have to convince.

Originally posted by slayne
Which proves exactly nothing. They only knew him as Vitiate, not Tenebrae, so calling him by that name isn't proof that he's still a Sith. In general, I'd say his actively working against the Sith as an organization, combined with the 'former Emperor' quote, is proof that he isn't a Sith Lord as of RotE.

Whatever the case with Vitiate, the same certainly isn't true for Valkorion:

This is definitive proof that Valkorion, as of KotFE, is no longer a Sith Lord.
Him moving past old sith ways doesn;t change him being a sith lord.

Bane moved past archaic teachings

Nihlus moved past archaic teachings

Sidious move dpast archaic teachings.

I really hope that isn't your "definitive proof"

Being unburdened by the anger/rage of the Sith doesn't mean he doesn't implement it at all.

All it really means is that he doesn't have to (to keep Zakuul at beck and call).

@Kbro:
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Him moving past old sith ways doesn;t change him being a sith lord.

Bane moved past archaic teachings

Nihlus moved past archaic teachings

Sidious move dpast archaic teachings.

I really hope that isn't your "definitive proof"
He didn't move past them, lmao. He's unburdened by them, and, therefore, isn't following them. Him not following Sith teachings is proof that he is not a Sith. He no longer adheres to their code, and he isn't affiliated with them in any way. He even says it himself. What more do you need?

@Geist

Drawing on anger and rage doesn't make you a Sith. I don't see your point.

No, it means he is not actively following the teachings of the Sith. Which is definitive proof that, as of KotFE, he is not a Sith Lord. This is even further supported by the fact that he outright states he's not a Sith.

@Az:

Was aimed at Kbro and Geistalt, sorry.

No, it doesn't. Vitiate was simply a name given to him, and is not indicative of him being a Sith Lord, regardless of whether it was his Sith identity at the time.
Also, what sources (pre-KotFE) refer to him as Tenebrae?

Not actively following Sith teachings is not the same as actively rejecting Sith teachings.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Not actively following Sith teachings is not the same as actively rejecting Sith teachings.
Who the fck cares, it didn't say anything aboiut sith teachings as a whole, it said "archaic" sith teachings.

None of the ecvidence that's been provided has said jack about valk not being a sith.

Valk's factually a sith entity. End of story

In Valkorion's case, both are true as per the quote. Him being 'unburdened' by them means that he rejects them. He does not believe they are true, and, as a result, he's 'unburdened' by them.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Who the fck cares, it didn't say anything aboiut sith teachings as a whole, it said "archaic" sith teachings.

None of the ecvidence that's been provided has said jack about valk not being a sith.

Valk's factually a sith entity. End of story
Archaic Sith teachings still classify as Sith teachings, so if Valkorion rejects them, and does not follow them, he is not a Sith. Unlike Bane or Sidious, he didn't change the Sith teachings, he actively rejected them. Therefore, only one conclusion can be drawn: Valkorion is not a Sith.

Your inability to follow logic is quite honestly amusing.

Originally posted by slayne
In Valkorion's case, both are true as per the quote. Him being 'unburdened' by them means that he rejects them. He does not believe they are true, and, as a result, he's unburdened by them.


Archaic Sith teachings still classify as Sith teachings, so if Valkorion rejects them, and does not follow them,
Yes, Valk doesn't follow archaic sith teachings

-

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yes, Valk doesn't follow archaic sith teachings
Your point?

Originally posted by slayne
Your point?

It's like talking to a wall lol. No matter what you tell him or what quotes you provide, nothing will convince him that Valkorion isn't a Sith, because it would contradict his anti-Valk pro-PT agenda.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
It's like talking to a wall lol. No matter what you tell him or what quotes you provide, nothing will convince him that Valkorion isn't a Sith, because it would contradict his anti-Valk pro-PT agenda.
Nfactor, your need to resort to agenda based accusations speaks volumes about the merit of what you're trying to argue imo.

This isn't hard. None of the quotes have been offered say valk isn't a sith. We have an objective out of universe quote saying valk is a sith.

So mental gymnastics, and misinterpretations aside, valk is a sith.

Try to understand that rejecting archaic sith teachings isn't the same as not being a sith. BANE rejected archaic sith teachings, he's still a sith, SIDIOUS reject archaic sith teachings, he's still a sith.

Valk not being the sith emperor is because he stopped being the sith emperor, It doesn't mean he's not a sith.

There's no need to make up contradictions that don't exist.

Valk is explicitly stated to be a sith, and thus he's a sith. End of story

Speaking of walls Nfactor I'd love to hear how you plan on wiggling valk out of this one:
"Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity"
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/valkorion

1.The nexus is created by the ritual which he orchestrated, the nexus is stated to have consumed all life, every iota, from Sith to bugs. Therefore the Sith Emperor must have absorbed this nexus in order to gain anything from the Ritual in the first place. You aren't making any sense here. The Emperor created the nexus and absorbed it into himself.

2.Given this is repeated numerous times it clearly isn't just hyperbole, which, given the above, is quite clearly within the realms of explicitly stated fact.

3.Nihilus and Surik were side effects of Malachor V's MSG detonation, Vitiate was the focal point. The difference is massive.

4.Vitiate has the nexus within him, not the Void left over, Scourge sees the nexus within him and the Void in the Force it leaves behind after he's done draining.

5.Vitiate's anchor was the Temple on Yavin IV, where he was resurrected but without his full strength. He went to Ziost to absorb the Sith population and there regained his strength. Then after doing so dealt Ziost the same fate as Nathema, but this time he did it without the need of any aid nor even a physical form.

Which in and of itself points to how vastly powerful he was after Nathema. 8,000 Sith Lords aided him, and a ten day ritual, the most complex ever performed, to boot. That's an ansolutely immense amount of dark side power. Yet he doesn't need any help whatsoever to perform the same thing again, as a spirit.

Actually realise this and you'll come to the conclusion that he obviously did absorb 8,000 Sith Lords, hence not requiring them a second time.

6.His feats whilst possessing the Outlander. . . where he's suffered a physical death and had to escape using the Outlander.

Oh and Valkorion soundly defeated Arcann, unless you've forgotten, ripping through his Force shield and completely overloading every ship in the vicinity of the spire, with the excess discharge.

When Valkorion regained his former power via Vaylin's spirit and transformed the Outlander into a host powerful enough to withstand his strength(in KOTFE the Outlander nearly dies almost every time Valkorion's spirit intervenes), he's capable of nigh stomping the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann combined. The only reason they won is because of the uber holocron, which was only after Lord Dramath wounded Valkorion's spirit with a suicidal attack.

Seriously, play the game.

7.Except Valkorion's ever-growing power comes due to his insatiable hunger to gain more and more energy, a living embodiment of the dark side, by its very nature, is a nihilistic and pervasive Force. Nihilus is one of them, though isn't directly stated.

You can't be more powerful than a manifestation of the dark side, only the more and more damage and death you cause continues to sustain your energy and power.

Now you can argue that Palpatine's state was even more chaotic, which you have, but I'd counter with the fact that Revan perceives Vitiate as a physical shell barely holding his energy together. He was pulsating waves of palpable dark side energy and even reduced the connections of the Force of any Jedi to null with his mere presence. Revan being Revan countered that with drawing from the balance of the Force.

8.Except that you're still not getting it, he's always been Tenebrae, he merely assumed mantles over civilisations he used at his whim to further his ascension to godhood. Darth Sidious did the same thing, even Plagueis did it.

Why you're insisting on holding outdated information against him is the real question here. This is like stating Vader can't be Anakin Skywalker because in A New Hope, he's stated to have killed him.

Knights of the Eternal Throne, as well as Lead Writer Hall Hood have both confirmed this is the factual case. It's called a bloody plot twist.

Yet we all know the real reason why people must cling to accolades. Because as soon as it comes down to feats, all of a sudden the case is not even close to definitive.

nice wall of irrelevant text.

It was in reply to Azronger you moron.

Ah, my bad. In that case

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
nice wall of irrelevant text.

It's a greater argument than every single one you've ever put the nodes together to attempt, combined.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Speaking of walls Nfactor I'd love to hear how you plan on wiggling valk out of this one:
"Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity"
https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/cdx/valkorion

It's explicitly stated that he's no longer following Sith teachings and has moved on. Therefore by definition, he is no longer a Sith. "Sheds his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings." Similarly to if a Jedi leaves the Jedi Order and/or rejects the Jedi Code and teachings, he is no longer a Jedi. Don't get stuck on the word "archaic." It is clearly referring to ALL Sith teachings, especially given how Valkorion views the entirety of the Sith Empire and their philosophy as archaic, limited, flawed, etc. hence the whole reason he created the Zakuul Empire.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
"Sheds his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings."

An apt description for Darth Bane, too.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
An apt description for Darth Bane, too.

Darth Bane moved past the teachings of Kaan's Brotherhood and followed the teachings of people like Darth Revan. Whereas Valkorion has moved entirely beyond Sith teachings. That was the whole point of the Eternal Empire and was focused on in multiple chapters.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
An apt description for Darth Bane, too.
Actually no.

Darth Bane took teachings of ancient Sith to heart and abandoned the ways of brotherhood of his time. He also noted that Sith - by nature - are violent and would rather hinder each other in large numbers. Therefore, he decided to restrict number of Sith to two only (Rule of Two in the nutshell).

Tenebrae did no such thing and Sith were just a means to an end to him. Here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t642058.html

Lord Dramath's judgement is up to the mark. He saw in his son a major threat to Sith and his assessment turned out to be correct.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Darth Bane moved past the teachings of Kaan's Brotherhood and followed the teachings of people like Darth Revan.

Yep, those would indeed be the teachings he moved beyond. He's still Sith.

Originally posted by nfactor1995
Whereas Valkorion has moved entirely beyond Sith teachings. That was the whole point of the Eternal Empire and was focused on in multiple chapters.

Oh, I'm well acquainted with the storyline. But you're reading far too much into Valkorion's propaganda. It's a load of bullshit. Not only does the Codex still identify him as a Sith entity, the KOTET website flat out says his Force mastery is "dark" even though Valkorion himself says he's beyond all that.

Jesus Christ. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

Valkorion rejected the Sith teachings. He is not affiliated with them, and he does not follow their code: he's 'unburdened' by them. Unlike Bane or Sidious, he never changed their code, or altered the philosophy of the Sith in any way - he actively rejected their teachings. Therefore, he is not Sith.

I also find it hilarious people are referencing his mastery of the dark side as evidence for him being Sith. He's a Pureblood in origin - his species have a massive affinity for the dark side, and, if you need further proof, look at any Dark Jedi who has ever existed in the history of SW - they used the dark side, but they weren't Sith. The same is true for Valkorion.

The 'ancient Sith entity' quote refers to his origins, and not his present status - in simpler terms, he is Sith in origin with context to the species, not the organization.

It's pretty clear he isn't Sith and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Yep, those would indeed be the teachings he moved beyond. He's still Sith.



Oh, I'm well acquainted with the storyline. But you're reading far too much into Valkorion's propaganda. It's a load of bullshit. Not only does the Codex still identify him as a Sith entity, the KOTET website flat out says his Force mastery is "dark" even though Valkorion himself says he's beyond all that.

Arcann and Valkorion both appear to be dark side users, at least somewhat. That doesn't inherently make them Sith. The Rakata drew on the dark side exclusively and they weren't Sith. Heck the fact that the Knights of Zakuul and the Scions exist and aren't Sith/dark side should indicate that Valk isn't a Sith or following Sith teachings, otherwise he would've, you know, turned them into Sith-like organizations and taught them Sith ways.

Originally posted by slayne
Jesus Christ. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

Valkorion rejected the Sith teachings. He is not affiliated with them, and he does not follow their code: he's 'unburdened' by them. Unlike Bane or Sidious, he never changed their code, or altered the philosophy of the Sith in any way - he actively rejected their teachings. Therefore, he is not Sith.

I also find it hilarious people are referencing his mastery of the dark side as evidence for him being Sith. He's a Pureblood in origin - his species have a massive affinity for the dark side, and, if you need further proof, look at any Dark Jedi who has ever existed in the history of SW - they used the dark side, but they weren't Sith. The same is true for Valkorion.

The 'ancient Sith entity' quote refers to his origins, and not his present status - in simpler terms, he is Sith in origin with context to the species, not the organization.

It's pretty clear he isn't Sith and anyone who says otherwise is in denial.

You're misinterpreting Temp's argument.

He's not citing the "dark mastery" quote to show that Valk is a Sith. You're right in that there is no inherent connection between dark siders and Sith; the abundance of non-Sith dark side organizations is a testament to that. Temp was citing that to prove that Valkorion was lying when he said he was "beyond light or dark", which destroys his credibility. If that's the case, how can we trust his word on not being a Sith anymore?

Nihilus "rejected" Sith teachings and their code as well, or at least showed no interest in them, yet he is factually and objectively a Sith Lord. Certainly Traya thinks as much (and goes so far as to say that he cares nothing for the Sith), yet even Traya recognized him as a Sith Lord.

Also, on the topic of the Sith entity quote, it says "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity", not "was", meaning that it's referring to him in the present tense. And in the present tense, he is clearly not a biological Pureblood, but a human. That suggests that it is referring to the Sith Order, not the race of Purebloods since Valkorion clearly isn't one. Vitiate hasn't even adopted a Pureblood Voice in at least decades, if not longer.

Except he uses esoteric, non-dark side techniques repeatedly throughout KOTFE. He mastered the Dark Side of the Force to its greatest degree and then began using Force techniques beyond the Dark Side, flow walking and teleportation come to mind.

Not that it matters given the trove of OOU sources that state he isn't a Sith and never was, Sith Emperor Vitiate is just a mask he used to manipulate the Sith Empire towards his goal. That goal being made clearly obvious throughout HoT Act III.

Speaking of which, the claim that Vitiate required billions of deaths to fuel his Dark Ritual was debunked by Hall Hood. Vitiate only needed one major act of death to fuel the ritual, and he would have been successful. Pretty much the closest anybody ever got to literally killing the Force and becoming a God.

Valk can teleport, he's beyond light and dark.

He evidently uses every aspect of the Force, given he's strongly implied to be the reason Nathema is healing then he's obviously not doing so via the dark side.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're misinterpreting Temp's argument.

If that's the case, how can we trust his word on not being a Sith anymore?
Because the codex entry confirms his statement?

Except Traya then goes on to state that the Sith is a belief in her final moments. Therefore, if one rejects the Sith teachings, one is not truly Sith - as is the case with Valkorion. Traya even says so herself with regards to Sion and Nihilus.

Of course, you're right about Nihilus canonically being a Sith, but, unlike Valkorion, Nihilus wasn't actively working against them - he was their leader. The fact that Valkorion tried to destroy, not reform, the Sith Empire is proof enough that he isn't Sith.


It makes sense that it'd be referring to Valkorion in the present tense, since he was still 'alive', both physically and then later inside the Outlander's head. Past-tense would imply that he was dead, and that wouldn't make sense since the quote is referencing Valkorion as an entity.

1. That was Temp's argument. Regardless, being unburdened by archaic Sith teachings can be said of Nihilus as well, yet he is still a Lord of the Sith.

2. Actually, Traya mentions that the Sith is a belief way back in the mid game, yet she still calls Nihilus a Lord of the Sith.

Nihilus' interest was not in reforming the Sith either, or frankly, even leading them. He enslaved a group and had them serve under him for his own ends, nothing more; he would've consumed them in time if Kreia's narrative is accurate.

3. Right, so if it's referring to Valkorion in the present tense, it doesn't refer to "Sith" in the context of a Pureblood, but rather an adherent of the Order. So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order. Note that the term "Ancient Sith" refers to an Order also, not a species.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. That was Temp's argument. Regardless, being unburdened by archaic Sith teachings can be said of Nihilus as well, yet he is still a Lord of the Sith.

2. Actually, Traya mentions that the Sith is a belief way back in the mid game, yet she still calls Nihilus a Lord of the Sith.

Nihilus' interest was not in reforming the Sith either, or frankly, even leading them. He enslaved a group and had them serve under him for his own ends, nothing more; he would've consumed them in time if Kreia's narrative is accurate.

3. Right, so if it's referring to Valkorion in the present tense, it doesn't refer to "Sith" in the context of a Pureblood, but rather an adherent of the Order. So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order. Note that the term "Ancient Sith" refers to an Order also, not a species.
When evaluating a research work, do we care about initial proposal and/or concentrate on iterative processes of theory building effort? No. We consider final draft for evaluation.

Tenebrae's story developed in a similar way.

Doesn't matters if Tenebrae was referred to as an ancient Sith entity in a codex entry. This is the final description:

Over the millennia, Valkorion wore many faces and names: Lord Vitiate; Emperor of the Sith; Eternal Emperor of Zakuul. For centuries upon centuries, he shaped and manipulated galactic events, bending the arc of history to his will during his obsessive quest for immortality. A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex Entry titled "The Fall of Valkorion."

---

"Valkorion. Tenebrae. Vitiate. Emperor of the Sith. My low-born son has worn many masks." - Lord Dramath

---

Same cannot be said for Darth(s) Nihilus and Traya; they might be far from being ideal adherents to Sith philosophy but they did not establish a new identity and officially renounce their allegiance to Sith.

Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith in KotFE.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He evidently uses every aspect of the Force, given he's strongly implied to be the reason Nathema is healing then he's obviously not doing so via the dark side. >Valkorion can use non-dark side powers
>Valkorion can use every aspect of the Force.

Are you truly this moronic?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith in KotFE.
Yes, but KoTET supersedes KoTFE in that.

Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith entity in a codex entry of KoTFE but this is context-constrained description. Greater reality is that Tenebrae wore different masks at different points in time and Sith Emperor was just one of them, as established in KoTET.

Which were already present in KotFE.

Can you tell me what key ground realities are missing here?

The one where explicitly being stated to be a sith doesn't make you a sith

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Valkorion was referred to as an ancient Sith in KotFE.

Too bad the official revelations came in KOTET.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
>Valkorion can use non-dark side powers
>Valkorion can use every aspect of the Force.

Are you truly this moronic?

So him learning every Force technique from Revan, as well as evolving an entirely new way of drawing on the Force, is irrelevant?

Well is body is outside teh galaxy, roting away he have ascended to near god-hood we can say that.

"So him learning every Force technique from Revan, as well as evolving an entirely new way of drawing on the Force, is irrelevant?"

As A Revan expert he only teach a few of them dark side technics and he did it in a prett fast and expeditive way, still Revan gain a massive amoun of knowledge from this but it is a small portion compare to what he have learned in teh trayus academmy, and Even Then Revan still continue to seek knowledge in doer to be able tod estroy Vitiate....

STill Revan gain a dozen of level out that......

AP, I don't have the time to commit to a proper response until summer, but I will say this: It doesn't matter whether Vitiate absorbed the nexus or not. You are falsely thinking that "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" somehow equates to it being the most potent, which it doesn't. So whether Vitiate has it in his doesn't make him more powerful than Palpatine.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Too bad the official revelations came in KOTET.Nope KOTET told us nothing new keep up.

What's relevant is the Valkorion's mastery over the Force is of the dark side, and you've done nothing to prove otherwise.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You're misinterpreting Temp's argument.

He's not citing the "dark mastery" quote to show that Valk is a Sith. You're right in that there is no inherent connection between dark siders and Sith; the abundance of non-Sith dark side organizations is a testament to that. Temp was citing that to prove that Valkorion was lying when he said he was "beyond light or dark", which destroys his credibility. If that's the case, how can we trust his word on not being a Sith anymore?

Nihilus "rejected" Sith teachings and their code as well, or at least showed no interest in them, yet he is factually and objectively a Sith Lord. Certainly Traya thinks as much (and goes so far as to say that he cares nothing for the Sith), yet even Traya recognized him as a Sith Lord.

Also, on the topic of the Sith entity quote, it says "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity", not "was", meaning that it's referring to him in the present tense. And in the present tense, he is clearly not a biological Pureblood, but a human. That suggests that it is referring to the Sith Order, not the race of Purebloods since Valkorion clearly isn't one. Vitiate hasn't even adopted a Pureblood Voice in at least decades, if not longer.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order.

He literally tried to destroy the Sith Order tho.

So did Bane.

Unlike Bane, he made no attempts to remake it.

Well, having not yet actually destroyed the Sith, he couldn't. Bane made no attempts at reform until he had destroyed the Sith.

I agree that Valk's rhetoric certainly doesn't make him sound like a Sith, but we know his word to be unreliable and the codex states that he is a Sith. The only "support" from the codex is the claim that he is "unburdened by ancient Sith teachings", something applicable to Bane or Nihilus also. And the criteria being set out by users here also applies to either Bane or Nihilus (or both), both of whom we know to be Sith.

Do you really believe Valkorion is a Sith? I don't know why they put down Sith, but frankly I think it was an error or mistake. The writers blatantly want the audience to at least think Valkorion is beyond that of the Sith, so a codex from the first chapter saying he is a Sith makes absolutely no sense, especially from a story that is all about going beyond the Jedi or the Sith. I fully understand your argument from a factual perspective, but you got to admit you're throwing logic completely out the window here.

I admit I'm sympathetic to the view but have no factual basis to believe it. In some of my recent posts I've made provisions for the viewpoint that he isn't a Sith, though that doesn't change his standing much for me (I still hold him below TPM Sidious). The problem is that once you exclude Valkorion from the Sith, you can't take advantage of the Force and Destiny quote stating that Palpatine's power "may be unrivallled in history of the Sith". So really, we've only got a difference of him moving from below Plagueis to what, on par with him?

And in the end, we still have no factual basis, whether on direct evidence or the precedent of related scenarios, to actually prove that he isn't a Sith. Versus clear-cut, direct evidence saying that he's a Sith. It's a subjective analysis of holistic intent and putting faith in factually dishonest character claims versus an objective quote proclaiming him to be a Sith.

So while I understand your viewpoint, as it stands, I'm not going to support it.

The primary reason I don't consider Valkorion a Sith is legitimately because I don't think he is a Sith. Limitations due to accolades is secondary.

Shocker. In the absence of supportive evidence, obviously your only ground would be your own opinion. And again, as sympathetic as I am towards it, the pull of objective, factual statements takes precedence.

That's not to say sourcebook statements haven't been shown to be wrong before, or even outright inane from the outset, but the arguments made thus far aren't very convincing since none of them can't be applied to other Sith Lords like Nihilus or Bane.

The fact it states "Sith entity" could, alternatively, just refer to the fact he's a Force entity via Sith means and sorcery, also.

It calls him an "ancient Sith entity", which means he's an entity derived from (and still being) the ancient Sith — which is an Order, not a species, by the way.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact it states "Sith entity" could, alternatively, just refer to the fact he's a Force entity via Sith means and sorcery, also.

Not seeing how you restating your main point has anything to do with what I just said.

I'm clarifying the definition. What you said makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps you could point to some similar examples in history of quotes like that where if the object is described as XY, that means he's a Y as a result of doing X?

TBH there's clearly a sense in which 'Sith' simply means 'anything that is at face value a Sith' (which generally boils down to being called a Sith in all serious cases); that is what I believe the word means when it is used in all SW marketing and it's also what I believe the word usually means in guidebooks and RPG sourcebooks.

There's no other examples of someone becoming an entity via Sith sorcery, and then ditching the Sith for another organization.

Edited my post. Wasn't referring to that. Was looking for examples of quotes that operated similarly to the way you thought this one did.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm clarifying the definition. What you said makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps you could point to some similar examples in history of quotes like that where if the object is described as XY, that means he's a Y as a result of doing X?
Care to give an example of someone who would fit that category so I could look?

No idea. It doesn't have to be an entity. Just an example of someone being XY meaning that he's Y as a result of X, which I've never seen before.

Probably never seen it since the situation you're giving seems Valk exclusive.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. That was Temp's argument. Regardless, being unburdened by archaic Sith teachings can be said of Nihilus as well, yet he is still a Lord of the Sith.

2. Actually, Traya mentions that the Sith is a belief way back in the mid game, yet she still calls Nihilus a Lord of the Sith.

Nihilus' interest was not in reforming the Sith either, or frankly, even leading them. He enslaved a group and had them serve under him for his own ends, nothing more; he would've consumed them in time if Kreia's narrative is accurate.

3. Right, so if it's referring to Valkorion in the present tense, it doesn't refer to "Sith" in the context of a Pureblood, but rather an adherent of the Order. So Valkorion remains an entity of the Sith Order. Note that the term "Ancient Sith" refers to an Order also, not a species.

1. Nihilus was using the Sith as a means to an end, so it makes sense he'd be considered a Sith Lord while he did it. The same isn't remotely true for Valkorion.

2. Yeah, but the difference between Nihilus and Valkorion was that Nihilus actively supported and led the Sith on places like Onderon, Telos, and Malachor. His motives are irrelevant; the fact of the matter is that he led the Sith, while Valkorion wanted to utterly annihilate them from the beginning - and raise nothing from the ashes.

3. Except the quote refers to the Sith ambiguously at first, and then again as an organization. It then goes on to say that Valkorion cared nothing for everything the organization stood for, so it's fair to say that the 'Sith' part was in reference to the species.

I'll reply later.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He literally tried to destroy the Sith Order tho. And the Jedi. And everyone else.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It calls him an "ancient Sith entity", which means he's an entity derived from (and still being) the ancient Sith — which is an Order, not a species, by the way.
Ancient Sith entity does not necessarily translates into a member of Sith Order. Tenebrae was originally a Sith pureblood so it could be a nod to that.

"Is"=/ "was"

Tenses are hard

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, having not yet actually destroyed the Sith, he couldn't. Bane made no attempts at reform until he had destroyed the Sith.

I agree that Valk's rhetoric certainly doesn't make him sound like a Sith, but we know his word to be unreliable and the codex states that he is a Sith. The only "support" from the codex is the claim that he is "unburdened by ancient Sith teachings", something applicable to Bane or Nihilus also. And the criteria being set out by users here also applies to either Bane or Nihilus (or both), both of whom we know to be Sith.
What a load of crap.

Darth Bane destroyed the brotherhood faction because he felt that it had deviated from the original teachings of Sith. Taking teachings of ancient Sith at heart, he decided to reboot the Sith Order. You to revisit Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

Why we cannot take Valkorion's rhetoric at face value? His actions lend credibility to his rhetoric.

In-fact:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
When evaluating a research work, do we care about initial proposal and/or concentrate on iterative processes of theory building effort? No. We consider final draft for evaluation.

Tenebrae's story developed in a similar way.

Doesn't matters if Tenebrae was referred to as an ancient Sith entity in a codex entry. This is the final description:

Over the millennia, Valkorion wore many faces and names: Lord Vitiate; Emperor of the Sith; Eternal Emperor of Zakuul. For centuries upon centuries, he shaped and manipulated galactic events, bending the arc of history to his will during his obsessive quest for immortality. A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Codex Entry titled "The Fall of Valkorion."

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"Valkorion. Tenebrae. Vitiate. Emperor of the Sith. My low-born son has worn many masks." - Lord Dramath

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Same cannot be said for Darth(s) Nihilus and Traya; they might be far from being ideal adherents to Sith philosophy but they did not establish a new identity and officially renounce their allegiance to Sith.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
"Is"=/ "was"

Tenses are hard
The statement in question is context-constrained.

Tenebrae can be referred to as an ancient Sith Pureblood entity. Context in this case is to highlight his background.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What a load of crap.

Darth Bane destroyed the brotherhood faction because he felt that it had deviated from the original teachings of Sith. Taking teachings of ancient Sith at heart, he decided to reboot the Sith Order. You to revisit Darth Bane: Path of Destruction.

So are you implying that the Brotherhood, which had abandoned these so-called original Sith teachings, wasn't a Sith organization?

Originally posted by SunRazer
So did Bane.

No he didn't. He remade the Sith Order. It survived and flourished through him. Valkorion waged war on the Sith at the head of an entirely separate entity he founded with the goal of its complete destruction.

He's no more a Sith than Dooku is a Jedi, lol.

This collection of those quotes is nice and this analysis is great, but I'm not convinced that he's the most powerful Dark Sider ever.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
This collection of those quotes is nice and this analysis is great, but I'm not convinced that he's the most powerful Dark Sider ever.
Here's a even better collection:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t640242.html

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
This collection of those quotes is nice and this analysis is great, but I'm not convinced that he's the most powerful Dark Sider ever.
Check this blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
This collection of those quotes is nice and this analysis is great, but I'm not convinced that he's the most powerful Dark Sider ever.

You give out compliments as much as trees give out oxygen. At least we need the oxygen, tbh.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Check this blog: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/valkorion-respect-thread/97466/

I read it. Don't remember anything, I'll read it again.

Originally posted by MythLord
You give out compliments as much as trees give out oxygen. At least we need the oxygen, tbh.

Are you saying I'm too nice?

Yes.

Give him a week, he'll be just as rotten as we are.

I'm already "rotten", but not the KMC type of rotten. TOR debates don't really aggravate me tbh.

Ohh they will

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Ohh they will

I used to be a member of a FB group that was riddled with TOR supporters and debates that pestered me multiple times. I eventually left the group, but it wasn't because of TOR supporters.