Can ANYONE Go To Heaven?

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou
So Christians MUST trust the Lord Jesus to save them from the wages of their sin too. They have, so that's why they are going to Heaven. But ONLY because of their FAITH IN CHRIST, NOT because of their good deeds or works.

Adam_PoE
https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/av0zGOq_700b.jpg

JesusLovesYou
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/av0zGOq_700b.jpg

That's because salvation is a GIFT. You CANNOT earn a gift because a gift is given FREELY. Any gift you have to WORK for is NOT a gift.

The Lord Jesus Christ ALREADY DID ALL OF THE WORK. Christ did ALL OF THE HEAVY LIFTING so to speak.

dadudemon

JesusLovesYou
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/av0zGOq_700b.jpg

Some Jews REFUSE Christ's FREE GIFT of salvation. Many Jews DON'T BELIEVE that the Lord Jesus is the Messiah revealed in numerous Old Testament prophecies.

Again, salvation is a gift. There is NO quantity, number, or amount of good works or deeds that a person can do in order to be saved from their sins.

Jews don't get to go to Heaven because they are Jews. They were SUPPOSED to BELIEVE ON THE MESSIAH (THE LORD JESUS CHRIST) because they had FIRST RIGHT OF REFUSAL to RECEIVE the Messiah. But since many of them wouldn't believe, ANYONE can get in on the action (i.e. Jews and Gentiles).



The Blood of Jesus is powerful enough to save ANYONE, including Hitler. But I do not believe that Hitler was saved.



Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore HE IS ABLE ALSO TO SAVE THEM TO THE UTTERMOST THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

JesusLovesYou

Patient_Leech
Christianinsanity

Oh, did I misspell that? Oops..

Emperordmb
I'm gonna go with yes everyone since I'm a universalist and hell isn't something which I can reconcile with an all knowing all loving all powerful God.

Ayelewis

Patient_Leech
https://i.imgflip.com/t1pnt.jpg

Adam_PoE
QFT.

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

Surtur
Wait, so Satan is the god of this age?

But, this age has been pretty good. Yes, lots of bad shit has happened, but lots of good shit too in terms of the progress of humanity. Just how far we've come in the last century is amazing.

Thanks Satan!

Also when you say God "drew" you to his son Jesus that not only sounds creepy, but it sounds like God straight up mind raped you into loving his kid.

Patient_Leech
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
I know. I was once WHERE you are.


No, you weren't. But in fact I was where you are (except I was never nearly as obnoxious and presumptuous as you are). I was raised in a fundy Christian household. My father is still a fundy Christian. So, no, you have never been "WHERE I am." I was lucky enough to break free of the ridiculous delusions of Christianinsanity.


Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
I know. To you, and others who perish ... the preaching of the cross (and all things Christian) is foolishness.

It is foolishness. It is delusional and it's harmful because there is no evidence for such things. Just a book and centuries of brainwashed people.

Surtur
What is it about Christianity where it almost always seems like someone who didn't always believe in God and "found" him at one point in their life is always a much bigger douche about their faith than someone who has been a Christian their entire life? You want proof I have two words for you: Kirk Cameron.

It's not that life long Christians don't also try to preach their religion to others to get them to join, but those who "found" God do it in some of the most condescending ways possible. More or less phrasing it like you're a lesser human being because you haven't discovered an all powerful being you want to blindly worship.

JesusLovesYou
You both totally IGNORED the most important point that made:

NONE of the NUMEROUS people that I listed (i.e. Budda, Muhammad, Confucius, etc.) EVER ROSE FROM THE DEAD, and/or REMAINED ALIVE--like the Lord Jesus.

Patient_Leech
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
NONE of the NUMEROUS people that I listed (i.e. Budda, Muhammad, Confucius, etc.) EVER ROSE FROM THE DEAD, and/or REMAINED ALIVE--like the Lord Jesus.

laughing out loud

Stealth Moose

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

Patient_Leech
Funny how the Bible isn't part of the curriculum of study for doctors, surgeons, architects, engineers, etc.

Imagine that...

https://frivolousendeavour.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dark-ages.jpg

Beniboybling
no

Damn Christians.

Stealth Moose

JesusLovesYou
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
1. The goats resurrect continually, after their bodies are consumed. Jesus laid dead in a cave for three days. The former is far more impressive.

2. I have as much proof for the resurrection of the goats as I have for the resurrection of Jesus. An old collection of myths verifies each.



Care to provide facts to support your claim?



Have you read my first post in Resurrection of the Lord Jesus: Fact or Fiction?, clicked on the YouTube links provided there, and read my last post to Adam_PoE there as well?



I provide reasonable proofs (i.e. evidences) to support my claims that the Lord Jesus rose from the dead, and that the Bible is indeed the Word of God.

Adam_PoE
No one reads your walls of nonsense.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Care to provide facts to support your claim?

Your argument: Jesus resurrected, because the Bible says so.

My argument: The goats resurrected, because Snorri Sturluson's works say so.

I think we're on equal footing here. My point stands that given we're using biased sources here to defend unrealistic assertions, mine wins by virtue of being more impressive compared to yours.

Eaten goats resurrect daily >>>> Jesus dies from cross death and revives once, three days later.



1. Your walls of text are generally ignored. If you can't structure your argument to actually be readable by others, it doesn't deserve the effort to read.

2. Youtube links aren't proof any more than napkins are canvas.

3. The whole idea of the Bible being a 'source' begs for proof.



No, you don't. The Bible itself is a human construct, made up of handpicked writings and gospels over a hundred years after Christ apparently lived, and none of its authors or editors ever met him in life. Additionally, the book was never written in English, so when you rehearse it back to us in English and put special emphasis on the words, you just demonstrate that you don't understand how translation works.

The bottom line is you think the Bible is the end-all without being able to substantiate that it is indeed, the end-all. You just take it for granted, and any challenges to this beg for proof somehow.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/Hhbea19lrGa9G/giphy.gif

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Your argument: Jesus resurrected, because the Bible says so.

My argument: The goats resurrected, because Snorri Sturluson's works say so.

I think we're on equal footing here. My point stands that given we're using biased sources here to defend unrealistic assertions, mine wins by virtue of being more impressive compared to yours.

That is a false equivalency, because the author of your work is known, while the author of his book remains anonymous, so your source is actually more reliable.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That is a false equivalency, because the author of your work is known, while the author of his book remains anonymous, so your source is actually more reliable.

That's a good point.

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

Patient_Leech

Surtur
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
You both totally IGNORED the most important point that made:

NONE of the NUMEROUS people that I listed (i.e. Budda, Muhammad, Confucius, etc.) EVER ROSE FROM THE DEAD, and/or REMAINED ALIVE--like the Lord Jesus.

No I understand perfectly, Jesus is the most powerful fictional character out of that group of fictional characters.

Surtur

JesusLovesYou
Oops. Six posts above this one should be Part 1/3, "not" Part 1/2.

Surtur
JesusLovesYou, I have to say I can see the appeal to your beliefs. Literally nothing is ever your fault, it's all rooted in some cosmic evil.

Like right now, if I set an orphanage on fire...that's Satan, right?

Well wait, that begs another question: if Satan causes this evil, why do we suffer for our sins? Shouldn't Lucifer be roasting on an open fire, and not some serial killer? Cuz Lucifer is the cause of murder and rape and all that.

So not only does God hold us accountable for the past sins of people, but he apparently blames us even when some cosmic evil causes us to do horrible shit. It essentially seems like the decks are stacked against us. Either we resist some cosmic evil or we're screwed. Also this whole dichotomy is something a psychopath would come up with, you do realize that right? There is no way a non-crazy person does this.

JesusLovesYou

Surtur
You read that correctly people. He just suggested you go on youtube and type in "miracles' and see what happens.

Who knew that evidence of God and his almighty power was just a few clicks away?

*types it into youtube*

Ohh....oh I see. So in this case we are calling anything science can't currently explain a "miracle". Implying you feel we already know everything there is to know about science and thus if we can't explain something it must be jesus magic.

Stealth Moose
You:


Your assertion is that Jesus was resurrected. Your proof thus far is the Bible. You cannot show me more direct proof for Jesus being resurrected because no such proof exists. But you're welcome to try.



1. The Bible cannot provide irrefutable scientific evidence, because it does not use scientific method to provide actual theories, and its claims cannot be independently replicated or verified. It is, by definition, a tool of mythos and therefore any 'predictions' it makes about scientific knowledge are luck.

Being right about a conclusion despite a lack of evidence or faulty premises does not make for an irrefutable argument.

2. Youtube links to people claiming things aren't convincing. I will not entertain a multitude of external videos taking up my valuable time simply because you cannot concisely and easily convey your point. Videos themselves do not provide evidence, but present it. Find readable sources. If they exist.




1. Archaeological weight is a misleading term. The walls of Troy were uncovered; this does not mean the Iliad is entirely fact or even mostly fact.

2. I don't think you know what scientific really means. In order for a claim to be scientific, it must withstand the scientific method. Anything else is an untested claim, which may ring true or false, and may be either for entirely different reasons.

If I say that the earth is round because people have round eyes, I am right for the wrong reasons.

3. Thor's goats are mythos; by attacking their credibility you miss the obvious point - that Jesus cannot be substantiated without claims that beg for real evidence. "The Bible says so" is not evidence. "Youtube supports Bible's such and such" is not evidence. Evidence is something tangible that substantiates he even existed, much less that he is of divine parentage.



I ignore your walls of text largely because I don't always want to sift through your verbal diarrhea just to find something to respond to every single time we debate. I can present my arguments simply; why can't you?



Unless the Youtube video shows Jesus facetiming in 33 AD, I don't thing you have reason to claim it's proof of anything but that a video exists which claims such and such. I'm sure if I spent valuable time I could find Youtube videos which support hidden Illuminati lizard people in the Denver International Airport if I wanted. But I don't.



You barf Youtube videos on me I won't watch. An idiot can youtube anti-vaxxer 'proof' or 'proof' that Tupac is alive. The internet is filled with disinformation. Provide me something concrete. Remember the burden of proof is on you for making the large claims.



Eyewitness testimony, depending on the circumstance, can be very unreliable. Human memory is susceptible to stress, bias, fatigue, external influences, and even heat. 12 Angry Men does a better job of showcasing how unreliable it is than anything I could say further.



1. The Bible is printed/written by individuals. It did not come into being through supernatural means. If you believe this, you must provide proof for this exceptional claim, as no other books in our world come from anything other than living beings.

If you intend to argue that the Bible is divinely inspired, you could elaborate on why God seems to be suffering a personality change between OT and NT, or why it's okay to have bears eat children, treat women as objects, sell slaves, or why parts of Matthew, Mark and Luke are basically retellings of the same stories with variation.

2. Again, your saturation of biased videos does not sway me. I've done plenty of my own sifting through the garbage over the years. Unless you have Jesus's social security number on photocopy, I'm not interested in apologist shit.

3.



What specifically am I looking for? Excerpts from religious individuals who conclude the books are divinely inspired do not an argument make. I could start pulling out scholarly articles which refute their divine nature. Would the existence of block quotes invalidate your claim?




Well, this source notes that the book of Matthew was likely not written by him at all and dates near the end of the first century. Comparatively, this would be like an adult today writing about Winston Churchill with only collected oral and written stories from a small group of people which have endured the telephone game for a few generations.

Damning proof indeed.



See above. The gospels are named for apostles, but cannot be accurately traced to them. It's particularly concerning that nothing exists even in Jesus' own hand. Can you explain that?



"Truth" is either subjective or objective. In order for it to be "objective", the proof must be universal. "Gospels" "say" "so" is not objective. Try again.

Also, ancient tongues in which the Bible was originally composed do not translate perfectly into English. Greek, for example, has multiple meanings and cultural differences in word usage. When you "literally" ascribe meaning to Bible passages which are several times translated, you risk being off because of liberties or errors on behalf of human translators.

It's so simple it's axiomatic.



You're confusing knowledge with blind faith and belief. They are not the same. If I have blind faith and belief that I will win the lottery and tomorrow be a rich man, this is not knowledge. If a book my parents pushed on me which told me I should bet on certain numbers because they would win influenced my belief, I couldn't rightly say I knew anything.

And hell, more Youtube videos of preacher types pushing their idiocy. I'll pass, thanks.

http://media1.giphy.com/media/LiTTNQx8gGlrO/giphy.gif

Beniboybling
Poor Christ child get butt blasted. sad

Greatest I am

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou

JesusLovesYou
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Poor Christ child get butt blasted. sad



Christ child?



I'm a "son" of God.



You can tell your boy Stealth Moose I replied to his post. (Just look up). book

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
Christ child?



I'm a "son" of God.



You can tell your boy Stealth Moose I replied to his post. (Just look up). book

No, you are a Christfag.

Surtur

TheVaultDweller
Originally posted by Surtur
How do you know Jesus never sinned?

Well, if nothing else, he definitely knows how to use bold and caps. His posts remind me of those ransom letters made out of different cutouts.

Adam Grimes

JesusLovesYou
Originally posted by Surtur
How do you know Jesus never sinned?


I believe that Jesus never sinned for the following reasons:



1) The Bible says so.



2) If Jesus had sinned, His death on behalf of sinners would not have been accepted by God because He would be in need of a Savior Himself. His Blood would have been sinful. He would be in the same situation as Adam, and the rest of sinful humanity.



This is not a perfect illustration, but make an effort to get my point.



It's kind of like a group of people drowning in a whirlpool. You come by in your boat, hurl a life preserver out to the first person you see (being careful to avoid entering the whirlpool), but somehow in the process of saving this person you fall into the water. Now you need someone to rescue you.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
1) The Bible says so. Might as well stop there mate. sad

Surtur
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
I believe that Jesus never sinned for the following reasons:



1) The Bible says so.

The bible also doesn't exactly cover his entire life though.



Interesting, what do you feel would have happened to humanity if Jesus had not died for us or if he did die but his blood wasn't good enough?

Stealth Moose
http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Joe-Biden-Laughing-Shaking-his-Head.gif

Surtur
I'm curious why he used different colored fonts for different things and what that represents.

socool8520
Originally posted by Surtur
The bible also doesn't exactly cover his entire life though.



Interesting, what do you feel would have happened to humanity if Jesus had not died for us or if he did die but his blood wasn't good enough?

Yeah isn't it missing like 12 years or something? Convenient it's the time that a man would be doing the most hedonistic things.

Patient_Leech
Originally posted by socool8520
Yeah isn't it missing like 12 years or something? Convenient it's the time that a man would be doing the most hedonistic things.

http://www.mommyish.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/jesus2.jpg

laughing out loud laughing out loud Makes me think of the "foot massage" discussion from Pulp Fiction.. haha

socool8520
^ Hahahaha.

MythLord
Heh. Y'know, I'd like to think God has a sense of humour. It'd be stupid if he didn't.

Afro Cheese
These seem like two different scenarios to me. Because even if it is extremely difficult to attain a change of heart, that doesnt necessarily make it impossible for a Hitler type character to do so. Let's assume he somehow snuck out and moved to South America before the ally troops took Germany, as so many conspiracy theories would have us believe. Then he starts a new life there in South America, and through whatever chain of events necessary for him to do so, he ends up sincerely reflecting upon his actions as dictator with genuine remorse and has every intention to spend the rest of his life trying to be the best person he can be.

What should God do with him when he dies? Heaven or hell? My gut feeling says that no matter what Hitler does or feels AFTER he carries out his genocide, if anyone deserves hell it's him. Maybe I'm not a very forgiving person. I'm certainly not Jesus. But I feel that for me, sometimes "sorry" (not matter how genuine) just isn't good enough.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by JesusLovesYou
I believe that Jesus never sinned for the following reasons:



1) The Bible says so.

]

You seem to have blinders on.

What is this saying if not that Jesus sinned?

Hebrews 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus had to learn obedience to God the way the church says we all must.

It is all B.S. but that is what your dogma says.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am

Emperordmb
Yeah thats why I'm a universalist.

socool8520
I'm not on board. I agree that we are all made equal, well not biologically, but with the same rights and such. I do not agree that everyone should get into a Heaven. The above Hitler example makes no sense to me at all. You do not judge all equally if they do not all equally do the same thing. Why would someone who had a similar struggle to Hitler be judged the same as Hitler if he did not commit the atrocities? At the end of the day, how you respond to your struggles defines your character, and that is what you should be judged on for the most part. Now there are certain exceptions such as child soldiering where choices were never really given, but that is where I would subscribe to God being a poor one if I believed there was a God.

Emperordmb
My stance is that when everyone dies they get a knowledge of how they've lived their lives that proportionately punishes them for their sins and equips them to move past their remaining flaws, and once the person chooses to take personal responsibility for who they are and progress individually they get into heaven.

Basically everyone gets into heaven IMO, but if you're an evil prick in your ligthats gonna come back to bite you in the ass and you'll have to take personal responsibility for who you are before you get in.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah thats why I'm a universalist.

Intelligent and moral. Nice.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
I'm not on board. I agree that we are all made equal, well not biologically, but with the same rights and such. I do not agree that everyone should get into a Heaven. The above Hitler example makes no sense to me at all. You do not judge all equally if they do not all equally do the same thing. Why would someone who had a similar struggle to Hitler be judged the same as Hitler if he did not commit the atrocities? At the end of the day, how you respond to your struggles defines your character, and that is what you should be judged on for the most part. Now there are certain exceptions such as child soldiering where choices were never really given, but that is where I would subscribe to God being a poor one if I believed there was a God.

Ok. Break it down for me though.

If Hitler get's 100% of the blame for ending up as he did, would God ignore the one who was instrumental in directing Hitler to what he became?

If a thief is a thief because his parents raised him to be a thief, do you see God as also ignoring them when he doles out the blame?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Emperordmb
My stance is that when everyone dies they get a knowledge of how they've lived their lives that proportionately punishes them for their sins and equips them to move past their remaining flaws, and once the person chooses to take personal responsibility for who they are and progress individually they get into heaven.

Basically everyone gets into heaven IMO, but if you're an evil prick in your ligthats gonna come back to bite you in the ass and you'll have to take personal responsibility for who you are before you get in.

Too much of the supernatural in that for Gnostic Christians as we hold no supernatural beliefs.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
become acquainted with will find it; become acquainted with yourselves, it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

You are strong on self responsibility, which I like. Have you accepted and experienced what you describe above?

Where is heaven to you. Which God is judging you if not you?

Regards
DL

Emperordmb

Emperordmb

Greatest I am

Afro Cheese
This is an interesting puzzle, but it just doesn't sit right with me tbh. I feel like if you are going to "judge" who is and is not worthy of heaven, then Hitler is much more unworthy than Hitler's mom or whoever else helped make him the way he is. You can offer up an even more difficult puzzle if you take someone who does something heinous because of some neurological disorder that renders them insane. They might not be at fault, but the only manifestation of "them" that ever existed was evil and insane. So who goes to heaven... the person they would've been without the disorder?

I can get people who think the whole eternal judgement thing is not right. But as long as you do have an eternal judgement system, I'm saying Hitler goes to hell. If you have a judgement system that forgives every single crime or forgives none of them, then it is ultimately pointless.

You might as well just say there's an afterlife but not judgement. But as long as we're drawing a line between "good" people and "bad" people and sending them to different places, I'm saying Hitler belongs in the bad camp. Controversial, I know. But that's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

Afro Cheese
@ DMB... man, i always hear people deriving this great wisdom and shit from psychedelics like LSD, i'm sort of jealous. because when I did it that kind of shit would not be going through my mind at all. I felt like when I did it, the most insight i got was that it totally made sense that the Govt had tried to use this drug as a sort of mind control/truth serum.

I remember spending like a half an hour trying to convince my brother that it was Ok to go take a shower if he wanted, since I knew I wanted to and was trying to let him go first. Finally I realized he didn't really want to take a shower and I was just wasting time sweating like a drugged up retard wishing I could take a shower.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
This is an interesting puzzle, but it just doesn't sit right with me tbh. I feel like if you are going to "judge" who is and is not worthy of heaven, then Hitler is much more unworthy than Hitler's mom or whoever else helped make him the way he is. You can offer up an even more difficult puzzle if you take someone who does something heinous because of some neurological disorder that renders them insane. They might not be at fault, but the only manifestation of "them" that ever existed was evil and insane. So who goes to heaven... the person they would've been without the disorder?

I can get people who think the whole eternal judgement thing is not right. But as long as you do have an eternal judgement system, I'm saying Hitler goes to hell. If you have a judgement system that forgives every single crime or forgives none of them, then it is ultimately pointless.

You might as well just say there's an afterlife but not judgement. But as long as we're drawing a line between "good" people and "bad" people and sending them to different places, I'm saying Hitler belongs in the bad camp. Controversial, I know. But that's my stance and I'm sticking to it.

In your scenario, you would have to see God creating a person insane, and then to punish that insane person for doing what insane people do would be unjust.

That logic would apply to those susceptible to manipulation by evil people.

You may not like the implication of Universalism but it is the most just system possible for a heaven, especially if you consider that it is unjust to punish someone infinitely for sins in a finite world.

If you raise your child to be a thief, do you hold some blame when he is caught stealing?

Regards
DL

socool8520
Originally posted by Greatest I am
In your scenario, you would have to see God creating a person insane, and then to punish that insane person for doing what insane people do would be unjust.

That logic would apply to those susceptible to manipulation by evil people.

You may not like the implication of Universalism but it is the most just system possible for a heaven, especially if you consider that it is unjust to punish someone infinitely for sins in a finite world.

If you raise your child to be a thief, do you hold some blame when he is caught stealing?

Regards
DL

Hitler's parents didn't teach him to murder mass amount of people. lol

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Greatest I am
In your scenario, you would have to see God creating a person insane, and then to punish that insane person for doing what insane people do would be unjust.

That logic would apply to those susceptible to manipulation by evil people.

You may not like the implication of Universalism but it is the most just system possible for a heaven, especially if you consider that it is unjust to punish someone infinitely for sins in a finite world.

If you raise your child to be a thief, do you hold some blame when he is caught stealing?

Regards
DL no, i'm saying that maybe at that point it's pointless to have any judgement. but if we're going to have judgement, Hitler goes to hell. I said it before and I'll say it again. Hitler is a bad person. I said it before it was even cool to think Hitler is a bad person.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
no, i'm saying that maybe at that point it's pointless to have any judgement. but if we're going to have judgement, Hitler goes to hell. I said it before and I'll say it again. Hitler is a bad person. I said it before it was even cool to think Hitler is a bad person.

How did Hitler get to be bad?

Was he born that way or made that way by those around him?

Regards
DL

Afro Cheese
Can't it be both?

socool8520
^ Can you prove that Hitler's parents were Anti-Jewish? That they condone murdering a group of people? At some point you made the decision to do the things you did. Personal accountability is a thing for a reason. This wasn't some child soldier situation.

Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

socool8520
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

If this is true than there should truly be no judgement as you can not be held accountable for your actions. A cop out in my opinion.

If there is a God and he is not involved any more than creation, then there should also be no judgement due to the fact no baseline was set.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion. i understand that. like i said, to me it seems like either judgement is pointless or there should be some standard of what is and isn't to be forgiven. So if you just fall back on the determinism angle to render the judgement of a Hitler type character unjust, then I believe you're essentially saying judgement is pointless. that's fine. just a sort of amoral catch-all afterlife that everyone gets into, rather than "heaven" and "hell."

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Can't it be both?

If born insane, sure, but then one would have to say that he is not guilty of anything because he does not have the morality to meat mens rea, which says that to be guilty, one must know they are doing wrong and if they do not then they are insane and not guilty due to insanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Emperordmb
He's arguing from the philosophical standpoint of determinism where free will is an illusion.

Not 100%

Not an illusion but more like something that can be manipulated and is manipulated by the input from others.

Hitler, for instance, here on earth, would be seen as doing his will, but the actions he took would have been with the thumbs up from those around him. If they had not encouraged him, he might not have been able to do what he did.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
i understand that. like i said, to me it seems like either judgement is pointless or there should be some standard of what is and isn't to be forgiven. So if you just fall back on the determinism angle to render the judgement of a Hitler type character unjust, then I believe you're essentially saying judgement is pointless. that's fine. just a sort of amoral catch-all afterlife that everyone gets into, rather than "heaven" and "hell."

Judgement would be pointless as God would always judge us all to be innocent because we would always be doing what we do thanks to those who interacted with us beforehand and set our morals or lack of morals.

Perhaps that is what Jesus meant with his ---judge not.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus was speaking of the spirit world, judge not applies.

If Jesus was speaking of the real world, then he is a fool as we must judge to weed out those who would do harm to us.

Regards
DL

Surtur
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
http://www.mommyish.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/jesus2.jpg

laughing out loud laughing out loud Makes me think of the "foot massage" discussion from Pulp Fiction.. haha

We can't blame Jesus for acting out occasionally. He was the product of magical rape, kinda like Voldemort. WWVD?

socool8520
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Judgement would be pointless as God would always judge us all to be innocent because we would always be doing what we do thanks to those who interacted with us beforehand and set our morals or lack of morals.

Perhaps that is what Jesus meant with his ---judge not.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus was speaking of the spirit world, judge not applies.

If Jesus was speaking of the real world, then he is a fool as we must judge to weed out those who would do harm to us.

Regards
DL

You're putting absolutely no accountability on the actual person. IMO, that is wrong. You can't blame everyone for your own failings. To some degree, yes, your upbringing affects your end state, but unless it was some sort of extreme circumstance, you still have knowledge of right and wrong. To blame others for the way someone turns out is a cop out.

Surtur
Just to be clear though, if heaven is real and someone encounters Hitler in heaven, is it wrong to face punch him?

socool8520
Yes, Violence is bad. If you made it to Heaven, isn't forgiveness your forte or something?

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
You're putting absolutely no accountability on the actual person. IMO, that is wrong. You can't blame everyone for your own failings. To some degree, yes, your upbringing affects your end state, but unless it was some sort of extreme circumstance, you still have knowledge of right and wrong. To blame others for the way someone turns out is a cop out.

That is not so.



In heaven. That is not me it is God and as I said, if one of us is guilty then we all are.

On earth, of course we are accountable for our actions as we cannot know where the impulse to do the sin or crime came from.



Here, you are correct. In heaven, yes unless everyone else is going to hell with me because I am who I am thanks to others more than thanks to me.

We are all products of our environment and the people in it.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Surtur
Just to be clear though, if heaven is real and someone encounters Hitler in heaven, is it wrong to face punch him?

According to the Gnostic Christian God, yes.

If you want full justice, you would have to start face punching every person from his mother on up who had any input into making him the prick he became.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
Yes, Violence is bad. If you made it to Heaven, isn't forgiveness your forte or something?

Good point and God should be the epitome of forgiveness which bolsters my position of his forgiving everyone. Right?

Regards
DL

socool8520
Except their is Hell so at some point there is no forgiveness. Also, God did wipe out the world once if the Bible is to be believed so even God would have his limits. I've always found that to be highly contradictory.

Surtur
Originally posted by socool8520
Yes, Violence is bad. If you made it to Heaven, isn't forgiveness your forte or something?

I dunno, I figure someone could be an unforgiving d-bag without being worthy of hell.

socool8520
Yeah but violent and unforgiving? That's a no-no

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
Except their is Hell so at some point there is no forgiveness. Also, God did wipe out the world once if the Bible is to be believed so even God would have his limits. I've always found that to be highly contradictory.

I know many Christians believe in hell but not the intelligent and moral ones, few as they might be.

So says my favorite Bishop.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Judgement would be pointless as God would always judge us all to be innocent because we would always be doing what we do thanks to those who interacted with us beforehand and set our morals or lack of morals.

Perhaps that is what Jesus meant with his ---judge not.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus was speaking of the spirit world, judge not applies.

If Jesus was speaking of the real world, then he is a fool as we must judge to weed out those who would do harm to us.

Regards
DL hypothetical scenario: what if the reason Hitler turned genocidal turned out to be that nobody liked his oil paintings? who does god punish then, Hitler or the people who wouldn't buy his paintings?

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Surtur
I dunno, I figure someone could be an unforgiving d-bag without being worthy of hell.

Originally posted by socool8520
Yeah but violent and unforgiving? That's a no-no lol... if Hitler gets to go to heaven then I'm pretty sure the guy that punches him in the face in heaven is in the clear as well.

This is the problem with this line of thinking to me. It renders morality utterly meaningless imo.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
hypothetical scenario: what if the reason Hitler turned genocidal turned out to be that nobody liked his oil paintings? who does god punish then, Hitler or the people who wouldn't buy his paintings?

No one would get punished as in this case, the blame would have to be shared with those who contributed to Hitler being such a poor loser and having a character who could not take rejection.

We, at all points in time, all contribute to how we all end up.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
lol... if Hitler gets to go to heaven then I'm pretty sure the guy that punches him in the face in heaven is in the clear as well.

This is the problem with this line of thinking to me. It renders morality utterly meaningless imo.

Not really. It just shows that we all contribute to each others moral sense and actions.

Again, you have to separate the standards here where we can kill each other with the standards of heaven where we cannot.

Regards
DL

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Greatest I am
No one would get punished as in this case, the blame would have to be shared with those who contributed to Hitler being such a poor loser and having a character who could not take rejection.

We, at all points in time, all contribute to how we all end up.

Regards
DL maybe nobody made him a sore loser. maybe he was just a crazy person who devolved into madness once his dream was crushed.

Afro Cheese
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Not really. It just shows that we all contribute to each others moral sense and actions.

Again, you have to separate the standards here where we can kill each other with the standards of heaven where we cannot.

Regards
DL so what if someone in heaven breaks the rules?

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
maybe nobody made him a sore loser. maybe he was just a crazy person who devolved into madness once his dream was crushed.

If crazy, he does not pass mens rea, an evil mind or intent standard, and a just court would find him not guilty due to insanity.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
so what if someone in heaven breaks the rules?

Would a supernatural heaven have rules?

Sin has a victim. How can a soul victimize another soul in a non-physical supernatural heaven?

Regards
DL

socool8520
Originally posted by Afro Cheese
so what if someone in heaven breaks the rules?

I was under the impression that if you pass the Heaven test, you are above rule breaking at that point and also, since heaven is supposed to be a place of paradise, love, and comfort, you wouldn't want to.

Unless of course you're Lucifer. He's not down with the hugs and kisses.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Emperordmb
My stance is that when everyone dies they get a knowledge of how they've lived their lives that proportionately punishes them for their sins and equips them to move past their remaining flaws, and once the person chooses to take personal responsibility for who they are and progress individually they get into heaven.

Basically everyone gets into heaven IMO, but if you're an evil prick in your ligthats gonna come back to bite you in the ass and you'll have to take personal responsibility for who you are before you get in.
Why is there no religion with this kind of philosophy?

socool8520
^ Isn't reincarnation like this. Keep trying until you become a good person. If you are a POS, it'll take you awhile.

YousufKhan1212
Damn... Man hasn't seen such a controversial thread for time.

As for the question itself, I'm gonna say no and just leave it at that without participating in this discussion with walls of text.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
I was under the impression that if you pass the Heaven test, you are above rule breaking at that point and also, since heaven is supposed to be a place of paradise, love, and comfort, you wouldn't want to.

Unless of course you're Lucifer. He's not down with the hugs and kisses.

If Lucifer and a full third of the heavenly host rebelled against God, what makes you think some humans would not?

Do you think we will all like the tyranny of god in heaven?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
^ Isn't reincarnation like this. Keep trying until you become a good person. If you are a POS, it'll take you awhile.

Reincarnation is a supernatural belief.

Are you comfortable believing in what intelligent people think is a fantasy world?

Regards
DL

Greatest I am
Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Damn... Man hasn't seen such a controversial thread for time.

As for the question itself, I'm gonna say no and just leave it at that without participating in this discussion with walls of text.

Before you cop out, why not tell us why you said no?

Regards
DL

socool8520
Originally posted by Greatest I am
Reincarnation is a supernatural belief.

Are you comfortable believing in what intelligent people think is a fantasy world?

Regards
DL

Lol. My stance is that it is all a supernatural belief. I put as much stock in it as I do any other religion, which is to say none.

Many intelligent people believe there is no God at all.

Greatest I am
Originally posted by socool8520
Lol. My stance is that it is all a supernatural belief. I put as much stock in it as I do any other religion, which is to say none.

Many intelligent people believe there is no God at all.

Indeed. Most.

Regards
DL

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.