canon vs non-canon

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leonidas
k, that odin thread really started this and maybe this thread will help others. here is a place to discuss the canonicity of stories. what does or doesn't count. maybe mods can drop in rule if necessary, or clear up misconceptions at least. i'll start with a couple that i know cause problems just to get things off the ground then people can add some others for discussion and maybe even voting or ruling. some consistently argued ones include:

great darkness saga
king thor saga
unilord surfer saga

i know there are several others. which ones are definitely considered non-canon? are there any arcs that are canon but STILL not allowed to be used in the forum? should some changes be considered with regards to some of these arcs?

let the great debate begin! smile

Philosophía
It's simple - as long as it's the main Universe, be it the past or the future, it all counts as far as feats are concerned .

If by travelling to the future/past you travel to an alternate Universe , it doesn't count. But if it's the future of the actual current Universe , it's common sense that it counts.

leonidas
problem is it's not always readily stated whether the past/future IS an alt universe. i take it you don't think all the above i mentioned should be considered canon?

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
problem is it's not always readily stated whether the past/future IS an alt universe. i take it you don't think all the above i mentioned should be considered canon? I think individual stories should be taken on a case by case basis. Not all stories set in the past/future are alternate Universes in Marvel nor in DC. If, for example, you have a story where the past is changed and the future is altered, it's quite obvious that the story involving the future isn't an alternate Universe - it was quite literally the same characters, same Universe only further ahead in time. I haven't read the King Thor story in a long time - at the end, when he goes back in time, the future gets erased, no? That's a clear sign that it's the same character, not an alternate version.

Philosophía
Say, let's pick a character with no changes to his power over time - Captain Marvel . If there's a story where Captain Marvel in the future goes insane and kills Wonder Woman, but he is convinced by the wisdom of Solomon to undo everything, goes back in time through the Rock of Eternity, and makes it so that the future is erased once he does something in the past - then it's still canon as far as his abilities go .

operator616
the confusion regarding alternate timelines and universes actually comes from Marvel, mostly. Take Reigning-universe for example:

http://imgur.com/a/JCHv3

Reigning was the future of 616 Earth while at the same time it is designated as Earth-3515.

so is it a future reality or an alternate universe? It's actually both at the same time

But is it usable to Earth-616 characters?

Yes, because affecting Earth-616 directly affecting that reality, so they're linked. That's what Philosophia was trying to say i think, and i agree.


However, sometimes, like in Legion's case and GOTG the case isn't very clear. Because there is evidence for both: It being an alternate reality as well as the future of mainstream earth.

I already provided some examples for Legion in the other thread, but regarding GOTG:

In GOTG #7 starhawk finds out that it's impossible to change the GOTG timeline (3oth century) via changing the mainstream 20th century Earth (earth-616). He tried many times and only ended up creating divergent realities. Later on, however, in #44 the exact opposite happens. The GOTG travel to the past (earth-616) and inadvertently (i won't bother with the details) change their 30th century timeline (earth-691). so there is evidence for both and thus the question of whether that timeline is the future of 616 or an alternate comes down to personal preference.

to answer your questions Leo:

GDS: Debatable (evidence for both)
Reigning thor: Yes (evidence solely suggests that it's the future and doesn't contradict it)
Unilord surfer: No, from what i remember. At the beginning and end of the story it's highly implied that the unilord universe contains an alternate surfer.

DarkSaint85
What about say Old Man Logan and Maestro?

TheHulkster
What about MC2? Those characters have traveled back in time to intermingle with 616 characters.

Also, the events of Uncanny Avengers during the issue where Earth is destroyed and after. Are those events canon? I recall Abhi arguing that Hulk holding Doom's force field generating machine in place is non-canon due to the time travel rewrite. That seems absurd to me.

celeyhyga17
I'd rather not do a sweeping rule change. It's a slippery slope.

Case by case basis maybe?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What about say Old Man Logan and Maestro?
I think in the past u pointed out to me some feats regarding Jarnbjorn and Young Thor(godbutcher arc) that I try to no longer intermingle with Odinson and canon Young Thor for him. Seemed a logical point.


Hmmm... Well wadda u know? You are useful for something.

leonidas
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What about say Old Man Logan and Maestro?

i'd def say the maestro verse, and the events that happened their are canon. hulk has had direct impact on those events and there has obviously been direct contact between 616 and whatever designate the maestro timeline has been given.

not sure about old man logan or mc2, though i thought mc2 was a totally different universe. i'd say the uncanny avengers stuff should still be canon--the effects were directly divergent from the 616 and were changed back when a a change was made IN the 616 from what i recall. that speaks to a directly divergent path so i don;t know why that wouldn't count.

i agree with opr and phil--if a change in the 616 can alter a divergent timeline, and the characters in said timeline show no real differences, there should be no reason feats in those timelines aren't recognized.

marvel's THE END series' have been argued often in the past as well.

darthgoober
The thing about alternate timelines is that they derail threads. You can argue in circles about them forever and debates never move forward. That's why over the years on KMC it became a simple standard of "no never". Even if a feat takes place in a What If 5 minutes after the divergence, it's not valid. Even if the events happen in the mainstream universe and then time manipulation is used to reset the clock and change things, it's not valid. A good debate is rare enough as it is, allowing these kinds of things will prevent even more debates from actually moving forward. Potential valid alternate experiences have simply been sacrificed for the greater good of the forum as a whole the same way JLA/Avengers has been outright barred from debates.

The mods don't like to step in and opening up this door would require them to basically every time someone brought up such and instance to prevent the discussion from devolving into an absolute mess of bickering.

darthgoober
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'd rather not do a sweeping rule change. It's a slippery slope.

Case by case basis maybe?
The problem with handling things on a case by case basis is that people will ONLY ever recognize things that they like. The only way something like this would work would be to have definitive guidelines on what qualified. Otherwise you end up with double standards all over the place.

eaebiakuya
What about age of apocalypse?

abhilegend
It's really not that hard to understand. In marvel every future is in itself an alternate reality even if it is linked to 616 universe as shown innumerable times.

In DC the rules of time travel are a bit more relax and hence there is only one timeline from big bang to vanishing point. If there are alternate timelines, they are wholly separate from main timeline and have little connections with main timeline. Hence you can even alter past events to change present and the role of Linear Men to safeguard history.

You'll never find a scene where a future story in DC is an alternate reality. At best its a possible future of the main timeline.

abhilegend
Originally posted by darthgoober
The problem with handling things on a case by case basis is that people will ONLY ever recognize things that they like. The only way something like this would work would be to have definitive guidelines on what qualified. Otherwise you end up with double standards all over the place.
OK enough of this bullshit. Could you post a single scan from DC where a future is shown to be an alternate reality?



Originally posted by eaebiakuya
What about age of apocalypse?
Alternate reality when Legion killed Xavier.

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by darthgoober
The problem with handling things on a case by case basis is that people will ONLY ever recognize things that they like. The only way something like this would work would be to have definitive guidelines on what qualified. Otherwise you end up with double standards all over the place.
I get u. But even a thing like this has varying degrees.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by darthgoober
The thing about alternate timelines is that they derail threads. You can argue in circles about them forever and debates never move forward. That's why over the years on KMC it became a simple standard of "no never". Even if a feat takes place in a What If 5 minutes after the divergence, it's not valid. Even if the events happen in the mainstream universe and then time manipulation is used to reset the clock and change things, it's not valid. A good debate is rare enough as it is, allowing these kinds of things will prevent even more debates from actually moving forward. Potential valid alternate experiences have simply been sacrificed for the greater good of the forum as a whole the same way JLA/Avengers has been outright barred from debates.

The mods don't like to step in and opening up this door would require them to basically every time someone brought up such and instance to prevent the discussion from devolving into an absolute mess of bickering.

But it shouldn't be never.

Because the rules don't say never..

leonidas
that scan i posted referencing the 2099 universe as "the 616 circa 2099" says that not every future is an alternate reality in marvel. 2099 IS the 616--as was specifically stated.

@goob: i'm not sure what 'circular arguments' you think will come about from the relaxing or abolishment of this rule. there are dozens of circular arguments already. we've seen darkseid perform greater feats than those of gds anyway, so what difference does it make? avengers/jla--if it's ruled arguable, i'm not sure how it would bungle up anymore threads than if it is disallowed. it's simply more feats. neither arc would be close to the be-all-end-all in any thread debating the involved characters. no one uses just one source as support for an argument. well, no one with any brains. so if someone is doing so, i'd suggest placing them on ignore. i've discovered the forum seems a lot more intelligent once you drop 8 or 10 names into your ignore list. /shrug

to my understanding aoa would def not be canon. characters were depicted with vast differences and even powers didn't seem to remain wholly the same.

darthgoober
And here is a prime example of the types double standards I was talking about creeping up. Note what abhi's true point is here...

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's really not that hard to understand. In marvel every future is in itself an alternate reality even if it is linked to 616 universe as shown innumerable times.

In DC the rules of time travel are a bit more relax and hence there is only one timeline from big bang to vanishing point. If there are alternate timelines, they are wholly separate from main timeline and have little connections with main timeline. Hence you can even alter past events to change present and the role of Linear Men to safeguard history.

You'll never find a scene where a future story in DC is an alternate reality. At best its a possible future of the main timeline.


It should always be allowed for DC, but never for Marvel. And why? Because Marvel goes to the trouble of assigning a number for every "alternate universe" in handbooks so that the events are regonized as still happening somwhere in the multiverse no matter what rather than being an ambiguous "potential future".

Thanks for proving my point abhi, your timing is impeccable smile

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But it shouldn't be never.

Because the rules don't say never..
That's why I didn't say the rule, I said the standard. By standard I mean the way the rule is applied by the majority. The standard is that it's "No never" until the Mods recognize it as one of those special exceptions.

Originally posted by leonidas
that scan i posted referencing the 2099 universe as "the 616 circa 2099" says that not every future is an alternate reality in marvel. 2099 IS the 616--as was specifically stated.

@goob: i'm not sure what 'circular arguments' you think will come about from the relaxing or abolishment of this rule. there are dozens of circular arguments already. we've seen darkseid perform greater feats than those of gds anyway, so what difference does it make? avengers/jla--if it's ruled arguable, i'm not sure how it would bungle up anymore threads than if it is disallowed. it's simply more feats. neither arc would be close to the be-all-end-all in any thread debating the involved characters. no one uses just one source as support for an argument. well, no one with any brains. so if someone is doing so, i'd suggest placing them on ignore. i've discovered the forum seems a lot more intelligent once you drop 8 or 10 names into your ignore list. /shrug

to my understanding aoa would def not be canon. characters were depicted with vast differences and even powers didn't seem to remain wholly the same.
I'm not arguing for or against JLA/Avengers being recognized. I'm using it as an example of the fact that on KMC there exists a precident for excluding things that are potentially valid so that debates can move forward.

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
that scan i posted referencing the 2099 universe as "the 616 circa 2099" says that not every future is an alternate reality in marvel. 2099 IS the 616--as was specifically stated.

@goob: i'm not sure what 'circular arguments' you think will come about from the relaxing or abolishment of this rule. there are dozens of circular arguments already. we've seen darkseid perform greater feats than those of gds anyway, so what difference does it make? avengers/jla--if it's ruled arguable, i'm not sure how it would bungle up anymore threads than if it is disallowed. it's simply more feats. neither arc would be close to the be-all-end-all in any thread debating the involved characters. no one uses just one source as support for an argument. well, no one with any brains. so if someone is doing so, i'd suggest placing them on ignore. i've discovered the forum seems a lot more intelligent once you drop 8 or 10 names into your ignore list. /shrug

to my understanding aoa would def not be canon. characters were depicted with vast differences and even powers didn't seem to remain wholly the same.
Marvel 2099 is officially an alternate reality.

https://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_2099_(Earth-928)

One character saying it is the future of 616 means very little when the laws of time travel are clearly defined in marvel.

abhilegend
Originally posted by darthgoober
And here is a prime example of the types double standards I was talking about creeping up. Note what abhi's true point is here...




It should always be allowed for DC, but never for Marvel. And why? Because Marvel goes to the trouble of assigning a number for every "alternate universe" in handbooks so that the events are regonized as still happening somwhere in the multiverse no matter what rather than being an ambiguous "potential future".




This is not a double standard. It's simply what it is. Trying to apply the laws of time travel from marvel to DC is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.

Like I said bring me a single example of a DC future story happening in an alternate reality and then talk.

In marvel if you time travel and change the past you just create an alternate reality. In DC doing so will change present and if you undo the changes that reality would be erased from existence.

http://i.imgur.com/9NM3tRE.jpg

Legion of supervillains change the past and raise Superman and Batman as their sons. Superman goes to the future Darkseid to return to past. He becomes Superman of main timeline and the reality gets erased from existence where he was the son of LOSV.

Guess what, present day Darkseid has memories of the deal future Superman made with future Darkseid.

That's simply not possible in marvel until a future character gives the information to a past character.

leonidas
Originally posted by darthgoober
And here is a prime example of the types double standards I was talking about creeping up. Note what abhi's true point is here...




It should always be allowed for DC, but never for Marvel. And why? Because Marvel goes to the trouble of assigning a number for every "alternate universe" in handbooks so that the events are regonized as still happening somwhere in the multiverse no matter what rather than being an ambiguous "potential future".

far be it from me to defend abhi, but in this case it seems less a double standard and more the way the universes are set up, no? tbh i think both set ups have their disadvantages. with marvel there is still a great deal of ambiguity in regards to timelines for instance, and what should or shouldn't be admissible. dc seems to have taken the stance that...pretty well EVERYTHING is free game. in that case, it falls to us to judge i suppose. i'd think anyone deciding to use something most consider 'alternate' would then bare the burden of proof to show WHY it should be considered acceptable. if there are no major discrepancies in portrayals of characters, or their abilities, seem like common sense that it should be fine to use in a debate. if someone is arguing against it's use, they should have a good (and supported) reason for saying so. but the alternates, again, shouldn't be the end of any debate so i guess i don't see why their inclusion causes so much consternation in your eyes.



but excluding potentially valid feats so they can "move forward" seems to favor one side over another. if a feat is valid, and there is proof of its validity, it should be fair game. catering to idiots seems like the wrong thing to do imo and actually prevents what might be some pretty interesting discussion.

leonidas
Originally posted by abhilegend
Marvel 2099 is officially an alternate reality.

https://marvel.com/universe/Marvel_2099_(Earth-928)

One character saying it is the future of 616 means very little when the laws of time travel are clearly defined in marvel.

you stick to your handbook definition, i'll stick to the extremely specific on-panel reference. and it really wasn't just one character--that entire arc, which was long and multiversal in scope, shared and reflected the sentiment. thumb up

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
you stick to your handbook definition, i'll stick to the extremely specific on-panel reference. and it really wasn't just one character--that entire arc, which was long and multiversal in scope, shared and reflected the sentiment. thumb up
It's not just handbook. Doom 2099 traveled back to the past and found out his future is just an alternate one from innumerable futures of 616 reality.

There are innumerable on panel depictions of this.

DarkSaint85
Booster Gold specifically tried to change history (Batgirl etc), and couldn't.

He didn't create and alt reality, he couldn't do anything.

When Barry tried to change history, everything got phucked up.

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
far be it from me to defend abhi, but in this case it seems less a double standard and more the way the universes are set up, no? tbh i think both set ups have their disadvantages. with marvel there is still a great deal of ambiguity in regards to timelines for instance, and what should or shouldn't be admissible. dc seems to have taken the stance that...pretty well EVERYTHING is free game. in that case, it falls to us to judge i suppose. i'd think anyone deciding to use something most consider 'alternate' would then bare the burden of proof to show WHY it should be considered acceptable. if there are no major discrepancies in portrayals of characters, or their abilities, seem like common sense that it should be fine to use in a debate. if someone is arguing against it's use, they should have a good (and supported) reason for saying so. but the alternates, again, shouldn't be the end of any debate so i guess i don't see why their inclusion causes so much consternation in your eyes.

You and I have both been around the block enough to know that the way the companies and their greater cosmic layout is set up are in constant flux because of the sheer number of writers at work. You're speaking from a place of idealism. Yes we SHOULD be able to approach every single debate in a well reasoned and logical manner and have a good discussion about it. And people like you and I CAN do that at any time. We could debate about virtually anything via PM with no rules governing us and still have a productive discussion. The rules aren't actually there because of people like us have to be kept in check, they're there to keep 14 year olds, morons, and trolls in check. As for why I'm so staunch about the rules, I have to be. I literally have to be and can't risk stepping out of bounds at all even if the other guy's doing it so I stick to them rigidly.


Originally posted by leonidas
but excluding potentially valid feats so they can "move forward" seems to favor one side over another. if a feat is valid, and there is proof of its validity, it should be fair game. catering to idiots seems like the wrong thing to do imo and actually prevents what might be some pretty interesting discussion.
It's not catering to idiots, it's shutting idiots down. I'd be all for a complete overhaul of the current system to get rid of all the double standards, spell out the proper way to debate, and clarify all the rules but I don't really see that kind of thing happening. The mods now are... well I won't go so far as to say lazy, but they're not as pro-active as guys like Tron and Digi were back in the day. The old guard were always willing to step in and point out if someone weren't conducting themselves properly, but the new guard has a "live and let live, if they're dumb just ignore them" approach so the few rules that are spelled out are pretty important.

"Id"
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's not just handbook. Doom 2099 traveled back to the past and found out his future is just an alternate one from innumerable futures of 616 reality.

There are innumerable on panel depictions of this.

The same laws apply to D.C.

operator616
Originally posted by abhilegend
This is not a double standard. It's simply what it is. Trying to apply the laws of time travel from marvel to DC is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.

Like I said bring me a single example of a DC future story happening in an alternate reality and then talk.

In marvel if you time travel and change the past you just create an alternate reality. In DC doing so will change present and if you undo the changes that reality would be erased from existence.

Legion of supervillains change the past and raise Superman and Batman as their sons. Superman goes to the future Darkseid to return to past. He becomes Superman of main timeline and the reality gets erased from existence where he was the son of LOSV.

Guess what, present day Darkseid has memories of the deal future Superman made with future Darkseid.

That's simply not possible in marvel until a future character gives the information to a past character.

There are literally dozens of examples in marvel where changing the past affects the future reality and doesn't create a divergent reality. There is also an FF issue which explains that a divergent reality is only created if the change (to the past) isn't significant. But even that has been ignored by many writers who had characters alter the past significantly and thereby changing the future.

abhilegend
Originally posted by operator616
There are literally dozens of examples in marvel where changing the past affects the future reality and doesn't create a divergent reality. There is also an FF issue which explains that a divergent reality is only created if the change (to the past) isn't significant. But even that has been ignored by many writers who had characters alter the past significantly and thereby changing the future.
Yes, but the official marvel rule is that it creates an alternate reality.

DC does not has any rules like that.

abhilegend
Originally posted by "Id"
The same laws apply to D.C.
But in marvel ALL futures are alternate reality.

In DC there is one constant timeline and other branches. Hence why Legion resides in the same main timeline.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by leonidas
you stick to your handbook definition, i'll stick to the extremely specific on-panel reference. and it really wasn't just one character--that entire arc, which was long and multiversal in scope, shared and reflected the sentiment. thumb up

thumb up

Rape those cum-stinking dctards. Show no mercy.

Galan007
Originally posted by operator616
the confusion regarding alternate timelines and universes actually comes from Marvel, mostly. Take Reigning-universe for example:

http://imgur.com/a/JCHv3

Reigning was the future of 616 Earth while at the same time it is designated as Earth-3515.

so is it a future reality or an alternate universe? It's actually both at the same time

But is it usable to Earth-616 characters?

Yes, because affecting Earth-616 directly affecting that reality, so they're linked. That's what Philosophia was trying to say i think, and i agree.


However, sometimes, like in Legion's case and GOTG the case isn't very clear. Because there is evidence for both: It being an alternate reality as well as the future of mainstream earth.

I already provided some examples for Legion in the other thread, but regarding GOTG:

In GOTG #7 starhawk finds out that it's impossible to change the GOTG timeline (3oth century) via changing the mainstream 20th century Earth (earth-616). He tried many times and only ended up creating divergent realities. Later on, however, in #44 the exact opposite happens. The GOTG travel to the past (earth-616) and inadvertently (i won't bother with the details) change their 30th century timeline (earth-691). so there is evidence for both and thus the question of whether that timeline is the future of 616 or an alternate comes down to personal preference.

to answer your questions Leo:

GDS: Debatable (evidence for both)
Reigning thor: Yes (evidence solely suggests that it's the future and doesn't contradict it)
Unilord surfer: No, from what i remember. At the beginning and end of the story it's highly implied that the unilord universe contains an alternate surfer. Another that comes to mind is Hickman's run on F4.

Adult Franklin's actions in the past with his younger self directly affected his own future, and vice versa. Moreover, Franklin and Val(heck, you can throw Nathaniel in the mix as well) were also able to foretell past events and give their counterparts a 'heads up' because, well, they'd already lived those events... For example, Frank and Val foretold the Revision Wave, the Mad Celestials, and most importantly, the "everything dies"/incursion fiasco LONG before any of that started happening on panel.

So once again, in *that* specific instance, pasts/futures were definitely NOT considered alternate universes... It was all 616.

StiltmanFTW
Your new avi makes me hard love

Ty, Galan inlove

leonidas
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's not just handbook. Doom 2099 traveled back to the past and found out his future is just an alternate one from innumerable futures of 616 reality.

There are innumerable on panel depictions of this.

in this case, which is far more current than yours--it would seem marvel disagrees. it's one of the few times (outside of an x-book with cap britain in it...) 616 is mentioned by actual name and the only time to my knowledge it is categorically associated with a future. so maybe thoughts have changed. /shrug

now regardless, it doesn't change your overall point in that marvel has historically linked futures to different realities. but that shouldn't in and of itself be sufficient cause to simply ignore futures that DO link directly to the 616, or that diverge directly from the present continuity. not sure if you're saying that or not, but wanted it clear since that it sort of the backbone of the discussion.

opr and galan both brought up cases where those "alt realities" bear directly on the 616, and have cause and consequence tied specifically to the present. i think it's those types of ties that should reflect the 'debatable-ness' of a feat or character in question. burden of proof is on the person proclaiming the feat--show the ties to 616 and they should be good to go if it's substantial enough. the standard of throwing away alt timelines makes no sense to me and certainly favors one company over the other. /shrug

LordofBrooklyn
AS THE KING OF CANON I MAKE THE DECISIONS ON CANONICITY !!!

leonidas
Originally posted by darthgoober
You and I have both been around the block enough to know that the way the companies and their greater cosmic layout is set up are in constant flux because of the sheer number of writers at work. You're speaking from a place of idealism. Yes we SHOULD be able to approach every single debate in a well reasoned and logical manner and have a good discussion about it. And people like you and I CAN do that at any time. We could debate about virtually anything via PM with no rules governing us and still have a productive discussion. The rules aren't actually there because of people like us have to be kept in check, they're there to keep 14 year olds, morons, and trolls in check. As for why I'm so staunch about the rules, I have to be. I literally have to be and can't risk stepping out of bounds at all even if the other guy's doing it so I stick to them rigidly.

i dunno man, feels like capitulating to the low brow and the trolls to me. and the well reasoned stuff IS there in most cases if you ignore the nonsense that throws things off track.



i'd disagree with this because, well, (looks at ignore list) i don't see too many idiots being shut down by the rule. /shrug



i have no issues at all with the mods. they WILL step in if asked. and honestly, they really shouldn't be asked to babysit. there are very clear ways to not see the dummies who clutter up threads. there have been bans and any report (the extremely rare time i ACTUALLY report) i've made has been handled quickly and mod rulings are made if well reasoned and asked. shouldn't be up to the mods to patrol everything though. we can do a lot on our own by using ignore, or simply not feeding trolls. that's not idealism, that is my daily life in this forum. there are only, what, a dozen people at best who people really like to see respond to threads? the rest? who cares? it's the dozen (maybe a little more than that) or so who keep me here and i've had some great discussion both recently and in the past. we should be catering to the people whose opinions matter. not the tools.

Galan007
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Your new avi makes me hard love

Ty, Galan inlove https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnBLFIsG11Satyw/giphy.gif

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
i dunno man, feels like capitulating to the low brow and the trolls to me. and the well reasoned stuff IS there in most cases if you ignore the nonsense that throws things off track.
All rules/laws are like that. The reason there's a law against murder and theft is because if there'd be a lot more people who murder and steal stuff. You're not capitulating to murderers by outlawing murder. Rules are there to establish a line to indicate a point of potential punishment. You know what you get in a forum without rules... Herochat.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd disagree with this because, well, (looks at ignore list) i don't see too many idiots being shut down by the rule. /shrug
Then you're not looking at the big picture. nvr and Trick used to derail virtually every DS thread over the GDS. The non canon rule was amended to make it clear that the GDS fell under that heading and they stopped bringing it up all the time. They still believed it was valid, but they didn't argue the point. That's why in only became an issue actually being debated very recently, for years the argument was settled by the rule. The reason there's still so much nonsense running rampant is because there's still quite a bit of ambiguity in regards to the other rules.

Originally posted by leonidas
i have no issues at all with the mods. they WILL step in if asked. and honestly, they really shouldn't be asked to babysit. there are very clear ways to not see the dummies who clutter up threads. there have been bans and any report (the extremely rare time i ACTUALLY report) i've made has been handled quickly and mod rulings are made if well reasoned and asked. shouldn't be up to the mods to patrol everything though. we can do a lot on our own by using ignore, or simply not feeding trolls. that's not idealism, that is my daily life in this forum. there are only, what, a dozen people at best who people really like to see respond to threads? the rest? who cares? it's the dozen (maybe a little more than that) or so who keep me here and i've had some great discussion both recently and in the past. we should be catering to the people whose opinions matter. not the tools.
Then you and I have different experiences with them. In my experience they're much more likely to say something like "You know no one takes him seriously, you shouldn't even bother talking to him" and allow a problem poster to continue unabated. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to rally the townsfolk to get them removed from office, force them to change, or anything like that, they're mods on a private forum and can run it however they want(that's why I adhere even to rules/rulings that I have serious issues with), I'm simply saying that they're not as likely to step in as the old mods were to clarify points of ambiguity in the rules and other general nonsense so if we adopt an even more "open to interpretation" stance of the rules there's going to be even more BS to put up with.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
Another that comes to mind is Hickman's run on F4.

Adult Franklin's actions in the past with his younger self directly affected his own future, and vice versa. Moreover, Franklin and Val(heck, you can throw Nathaniel in the mix as well) were also able to foretell past events and give their counterparts a 'heads up' because, well, they'd already lived those events... For example, Frank and Val foretold the Revision Wave, the Mad Celestials, and most importantly, the "everything dies"/incursion fiasco LONG before any of that started happening on panel.

So once again, in *that* specific instance, pasts/futures were definitely NOT considered alternate universes... It was all 616. thumb up

That's why it should be on a case to case basis, especially as far as Marvel is concerned - DC and time travel tends to be more consistently 'it's the same Universe', while Marvel had a tendency to chalk it up to an alternate Universe.

leonidas
Originally posted by darthgoober
All rules/laws are like that. The reason there's a law against murder and theft is because if there'd be a lot more people who murder and steal stuff. You're not capitulating to murderers by outlawing murder. Rules are there to establish a line to indicate a point of potential punishment. You know what you get in a forum without rules... Herochat.

it's a rather disingenuous analogy goob. this isn't the real world, and trolling isn't a capital offense, obviously. and what we're talking about here isn't a call to anarchy! laughing out loud it's the removal of a simple rule that no longer seems wholly logical and favors one company over the other--a situation that HAS led to many issues in my experience.



nvr and trick? that was a LONG while ago....we have new and even worse trolls though, in case you're feeling nostalgic. thumb up and the reason there is so much nonsense running rampant is because a lot of people are morons. the ambiguity still exists--it's been highlighted in this thread quite clearly, and this rule certainly isn't hindering the trolling that still goes on. there is ambiguity. there are people capable of debating despite it. there are people who aren't and who aren't capable of debating the most blatantly obvious material, so...again, i ask who is being hindered and who is being catered to?



i'm not suggesting open to interpretation. i'm suggesting if you think it's valid, prove it. most can't, some won't bother and the ones who know their sh!t? well maybe they'll actually have a case. in the very least it will open up avenues of discussion that will be different from the typical.

darthgoober
Originally posted by leonidas
it's a rather disingenuous analogy goob. this isn't the real world, and trolling isn't a capital offense, obviously. and what we're talking about here isn't a call to anarchy! laughing out loud it's the removal of a simple rule that no longer seems wholly logical and favors one company over the other--a situation that HAS led to many issues in my experience.

Hey I wasn't equating the two, I was simply pointing out that a rule against something isn't giving into the offenders lol.

Originally posted by leonidas
nvr and trick? that was a LONG while ago....we have new and even worse trolls though, in case you're feeling nostalgic. thumb up and the reason there is so much nonsense running rampant is because a lot of people are morons. the ambiguity still exists--it's been highlighted in this thread quite clearly, and this rule certainly isn't hindering the trolling that still goes on. there is ambiguity. there are people capable of debating despite it. there are people who aren't and who aren't capable of debating the most blatantly obvious material, so...again, i ask who is being hindered and who is being catered to?

There's worse non-sense, far worse nonsense. The reason is because while the rules have always been somewhat ambiguous back in the day it was easier to get public clarification. That's why I think a change like this is just going to lead to even more crap to deal with than already goes on.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not suggesting open to interpretation. i'm suggesting if you think it's valid, prove it. most can't, some won't bother and the ones who know their sh!t? well maybe they'll actually have a case. in the very least it will open up avenues of discussion that will be different from the typical.

Hey I'd be all for that kind of thing as long as it was applied equally, but it's not really the way things go down around here in general. What typically happens is that rulings are made that flat out exclude any kind discussion about one type of thing but allow discussions about everything else of a similar nature. That's why I support a more general ban against everything of the category, at least it's guaranteed to be a fair standard. If you want to try to convince the mods to allow something like JLA/Avengers and other stuff that a valid case can be made for go right ahead, I'm just saying that I don't think you'll have much luck. The ruling about WB Hulk is rooted in this rule so out right abolishing it isn't something they'll likely do lol

IDK... maybe I'm just too old with too many memories of the forum's golden age for this kind of thing. I got hooked on KMC back when it was a different place. Actually stepping in and getting directly involved makes me care too much about the state of things. When I was only involved from the shadows it made it a lot easier to go "Meh, the forum is what it is".

Mr Master
Originally posted by abhilegend

But in marvel ALL futures are alternate reality.
thumb up

... or "possible futures" (something that may, or may not be) ... which is the same shit basically.

There is NO definitive "Future" in Marvel, and there never has been one.

Adult Franklin from Hickman's run was/is without question from an alternate future.
EVERY "Franklin" incarnation with the exception of kid-Frank is from an alternate possible future.

And it makes no difference if a cat from ANY Future visits 616 in the Present and recognizes ancestors/family.
Because anyone/everyone from ANY possible Future still derived from 616 directly or through lineage.

My friends, the only reason they're "alternate" futures is because they're either being visited prematurely:
(eg. a 616 cat entering a Future that hasn't become a reality in real time)
or:
(eg. a Future {a reality NOT in real-time} cat {like Franky and many others} entering the Present)

Basically, if you visit any point in time beyond the Present,
you enter a possible Future which remains an "alternate" Future
until real-time has reached that specific moment.
At that point and time, is when certainty about whether it is the "real" Future or can be told.

By that same token, if you enter 616 from anywhere beyond the Present-time,
then you came from a possible future, which is again "alternate" until like I explained above.

----------------------------------------------------

The only way to enter the Past by not creating an alternate reality,
is by not disturbing anything significant within that time, thus your visitation goes unnoticed by reality.
If you dabble too much,
you may endanger history forcing a reality creation to accommodate your anomalous ass.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
Adult Franklin from Hickman's run was/is without question from an alternate future.
EVERY "Franklin" incarnation with the exception of kid-Frank is from an alternate possible future.

And it makes no difference if a cat from ANY Future visits 616 in the Present and recognizes ancestors/family. Sorry, but that's not exactly true... Adult Franklin debunked that notion in these scenes:
https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359677_1_1.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359678_1_2.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359679_1_3.jpg


https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359680_1_4.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359681_1_5.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359682_1_6.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359683_1_7.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359684_1_8.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35359685_1_9.jpg



Anyone who takes the time to *read* the scans will find they entail FAR more than future Franklin just recognizing his friends/family. It was made explicitly clear that Franklin's past IS the heroes' present...Which means we're dealing with the *same* universe, but at different points in its respective timeline. Further proof of this is the 'rogue planet' depicted in the second sequence -- those who followed the last Avengers series will certainly know why that is pertinent to this side of the discussion. As Franklin said: "Sent from the now...Because you needed it then." smile

Certainly not saying this is always how Marvel handles time-travel and such, but that IS how Hickman chose to depict it under his pen, like I previously said. /shrug

abhilegend
Originally posted by leonidas
in this case, which is far more current than yours--it would seem marvel disagrees. it's one of the few times (outside of an x-book with cap britain in it...) 616 is mentioned by actual name and the only time to my knowledge it is categorically associated with a future. so maybe thoughts have changed. /shrug

now regardless, it doesn't change your overall point in that marvel has historically linked futures to different realities. but that shouldn't in and of itself be sufficient cause to simply ignore futures that DO link directly to the 616, or that diverge directly from the present continuity. not sure if you're saying that or not, but wanted it clear since that it sort of the backbone of the discussion.

opr and galan both brought up cases where those "alt realities" bear directly on the 616, and have cause and consequence tied specifically to the present. i think it's those types of ties that should reflect the 'debatable-ness' of a feat or character in question. burden of proof is on the person proclaiming the feat--show the ties to 616 and they should be good to go if it's substantial enough. the standard of throwing away alt timelines makes no sense to me and certainly favors one company over the other. /shrug
It's the only instance that I know of regarding 2099. That makes it an anamoly rather than a rule.

Not that it matters. Here GOTG Surfer clearly remembers the events of 616 reality and it is even captioned by the editor. It also noted that GOTG reality is split from 616 reality several years ago.

https://s24.postimg.org/7ligkxu91/RCO012_1469504307.jpg

There can't be a better way to show the futures are indeed separate realities.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

Sorry, but that's not exactly true... Adult Franklin debunked that notion in these scenes
I apologize likewise, but it is true:

Earth-10235 Adult Franklin & Valeria Richards traveled back in time to modern day Earth-616,
manipulating events to facilitate the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation's surviving their encounters
with the Council of Reeds and defeating the mad Celestials. Fantastic Four #574 (2010)

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthteaz.htm#numbered

Always has been, always will be.

Again, Adult Franklin ... IS ... kid Franklin, just like all the "possible Future" Franklins here:

http://marvel.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=0&search=Franklin%20Richards&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns1

... are also the real kid-Franklin grown up.

Still, every single one, is from a possible future which makes it "alternate"
until that point in history is reached in real-time. Then, it either is, or is not.
Originally posted by Galan007

It was made explicitly clear that Franklin's past IS the heroes' present...
Vance Astro (reality-691) visited his grandmother as a young woman in 616, and saw himself as a young man.
This doesn't mean Vance doesn't reside in an alternate possible future of 616. (691)

Many more examples from different books resembling this.
Originally posted by Galan007

but that IS how Hickman chose to depict it under his pen
I'll tweet him about it, that way we can avoid a long debate.

leonidas
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's the only instance that I know of regarding 2099. That makes it an anamoly rather than a rule.

Not that it matters. Here GOTG Surfer clearly remembers the events of 616 reality and it is even captioned by the editor. It also noted that GOTG reality is split from 616 reality several years ago.

https://s24.postimg.org/7ligkxu91/RCO012_1469504307.jpg

There can't be a better way to show the futures are indeed separate realities.

sure but the changes that happened to split their future happened years ago. and there were also several instances that showed a strong connection between 616 and that universe, changes to 616 were reflected in gotg. would feats done by ss in gotg series be usable? not according to the forum, but i don't see why not. before becoming keeper he was the same, so i don't see why it would be a problem. galan and opr have also both shown discrepancies to your "rule," which isn't really a rule, but more of something marvel typically does.

Philosophía
If characters split off into divergent timelines from 616, they're not usable. The moment it's not 'Earth 616', it's irrelevant to mainstream characters.

Otherwise, we'd be able to use all What Ifs.

leonidas
not quite the same imo. what ifs come with entirely different histories, different timelines have characters with the same histories that go in different directions. it seems silly to me to say a character who has only recently split from the main time can't be used when they are exactly the same character. and like i said, it greatly favors dc since, well, pretty much everything is usable. there would be obvious exceptions. cosmologically speaking i'm still unclear what an alternate timeline even is. if eternity encompasses all of time, it seems all the timelines that stem from earth 616 should be considered 616 reality. /shrug

of course this is all hypothetical. i doubt the rule will be overturned--i won't even ask for it to be. but i think more should be allowed in debates than currently is.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
what ifs come with entirely different histories, different timelines have characters with the same histories that go in different directions. You've just described what Ifs, while saying they're not What Ifs. They're timelines that go in a different direction from Earth 616. Thus "What if WWH?" or "What if Annihilation?" etc.

Characters in What Ifs are proven time and time again to have murky powerlevels, even though your logic of "well, it's the same character in a different future" would make sense. It's just how it is - once it's a different Universe altogether, it's not valid for the main one.

DarkSaint85
Forum rules say What ifs depend on when they split off.

Which makes sense.

leonidas
i've tried outlining the differences in the past between alternate/parallel universes and alt/divergent timelines. it's a lot more than i feel like getting into here and it's not exactly the place for it. suffice to say i disagree with you--or at least i don't always agree in that there should be exceptions to the rule in marvel imo. or come up with some analagous ruling for dc maybe.

hypertime is a clear exception to the dc 'all is canon' rule. even though hypertime has been referenced recently and is likely, technically, part of this new cosmology in dc, events in those alt realities aren't canon. maybe there needs to be MORE discernment, rather than less. goob would be happy to hear me say that.....

Philosophía
What Ifs are the equivalent of this never happened in the main Universe, but what if it happened in this alternate Universe.

Time travel stories are the equivalent of this happened to the characters in this Universe, but somebody went back in time and changed it.

The distinction is very clear - one is a reality that was never the main one, while the latter is the opposite.

leonidas
not so clear at all. what if logan killed the hulk is a famous what if. same reality until logan killed hulk. if in that story logan went back in time and didn't kill hulk would that still be considered 616 since....he really didn't kill him? if it's a truly separate universe, no, it wouldn't be 616. if it's an alt timeline, then yeah, it would be as has happened with the reigning for example and any number of x-stories.

the distinction isn't really that clear at all and is often open to interpretation. /shrug

at ds--i'd head someone say that about what ifs. is that an official rule?

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
not so clear at all. what if logan killed the hulk is a famous what if. same reality until logan killed hulk. if in that story logan went back in time and didn't kill hulk would that still be considered 616 since....he really didn't kill him? Yes, that would be the distinction.

Wolverine killing Hulk, in your first example, is an entirely different reality - it was never 616.

If Wolverine kills Hulk in the 616 reality, then goes back in time and changes the reality, it means that the actual Wolverine that we read of is capable of doing it, not an alternate Universe Wolverine.

leonidas
but up until the time he kills him the realities are the same. it is at the 'killing' that the divergence occurs. at least i think so. your thought is that the universes were NEVER the same? different logan and hulk altogether ie--never the 616 versions? sometimes the opening page of a what if talks about a divergence at a certain point--ie--616 splits off to become a new timeline but only AT that point. if true, that would mean logan and hulk were the 616 characters, and that yes, logan IS capable of killing that era's hulk

other times the openings of a what if seem to indicate events take place in an altogether different universe. i had scans to show this at one point....

i'm still curious about the rule ds cited. it makes sense to me. /shrug

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
but up until the time he kills him the realities are the same. it is at the 'killing' that the divergence occurs. at least i think so. your thought is that the universes were NEVER the same? The feat in question, killing the character, is never done by 616 Wolverine on 616 Hulk. It is done by 65943 (random) Wolverine, on 65943 Hulk, so you can't use it, since it's literally not the same guy. 616 Universe never has the 616 characters doing that action within its 616 continuity. That takes place in completely different Universe. The fact that it diverged out of 616 doesn't nullify the fact that it is now a complete, separate Universe. And we have precedent in comics, where it shows that the powerlevels in What Ifs are all over the place.

Time travel =/= What Ifs.

leonidas
in SOME cases they are all over. and i'm not advocating use of what if (or if they are used, used sparingly with appropriate caveats). i'm saying the characters ARE 616--in fact the universe itself may well BE 616-until the instant hulk dies--THEN they aren't. but if they go back in time and logan doesn't kill him, they are essentially their counterparts again. and may even be considered 616 again. to be truly other-universal characters, they can't have EVER been 616 to begin with. not sure if that is the case with that particular book.

if it's not, how can they be 616 one instant, and the next not? seems silly to me. and it is meaningless anyway. logan should have been able to kill that version of hulk. nothing outrageous about that imo. i think the rule ds cited is a good one--if it's real.

DarkSaint85
Of course you can't use it,but up until that point, they are the same Wolverine, no?

DarkSaint85
Leo,never question me again.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t577880.html

BZ me, and the loser has to leave forever.

Edit : not harsh enough. Loser has to support Carver in his arguments, no matter what,for a whole month

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
if it's not, how can they be 616 one instant, and the next not? seems silly to me. It's how alternate Universes are defined.

The Wolverine that killed Hulk isn't the mainstream Logan, and neither is Hulk.

The Universe in which Wolverine killed Hulk is a separate one, that has a history mirroring 616 up until Wolverine kills Hulk. That makes it a separate version of the character doing the feat.

Steve Zodiac
Originally posted by leonidas
i'd def say the maestro verse, and the events that happened their are canon. hulk has had direct impact on those events and there has obviously been direct contact between 616 and whatever designate the maestro timeline has been given.

not sure about old man logan or mc2, though i thought mc2 was a totally different universe. i'd say the uncanny avengers stuff should still be canon--the effects were directly divergent from the 616 and were changed back when a a change was made IN the 616 from what i recall. that speaks to a directly divergent path so i don;t know why that wouldn't count.

i agree with opr and phil--if a change in the 616 can alter a divergent timeline, and the characters in said timeline show no real differences, there should be no reason feats in those timelines aren't recognized.

marvel's THE END series' have been argued often in the past as well. This is the correct answer.

Steve Zodiac
Divergent timelines create new universes. This is the basis of the many worlds theory, ever since it was introduced in the fantastic four. What if's were always intended to be exactly that. Unfortunately comic fans online have always struggled with this concept. What if's are not less oitliers for characters than general stories.

Philosophía
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Edit : not harsh enough. Loser has to support Carver in his arguments, no matter what,for a whole month Haha, this sounds hilariously fun.

I'll do any battlezone of your choosing , to see one of us do this.

DarkSaint85
Phuck right off lol, I couldn't bear the consequences.

leonidas
i'd take that challenge too. it would be soooo awesome watching ds support carv..... thumb up

@phil--i guess we'll agree to dissgree, in part at least. it's odd though--in uncanny avengers, the apoc twins brought about a divergent future--however that divergent future was prevented via time travel save (as happens many times in many books). but what happened after the divergence was avoided? the 616 continued on as though it never happened at all. those same characters that inhabited that divergent universe (not usable by your definition) went back and AVOIDED the divergence but now they ARE usable again since now they are back in 616? doesn't seem terribly logical, and why i think certain cases need to be allowed for.

Pillow Biter
There really is no solid canon. And to the extent there is, it is constantly changing. It's ephemeral and temporary.
So in terms of whether past events are affecting the narrative of any given story, you will have to judge that on a case by case basis.
Canon is even more irrelevant when it comes to estimating how writers and editors feel about power levels and character comparisons. You have to go case by case and look at the specifics. A What If could be a perfectly valid source if it seems like all the characters are being treated normally. On the other hand, if an alternate universe is being used to give writers freedom to look at a character in a different way or modify them in a way that would normally be unacceptable, then it's probably not a great source for battle boarders.
For example, the Silver Surfer vs. Gladiator fight that was non-Canon seems representative of the normal MU. On the other hand, some What Ifs might be totally useless for a battle board debate. Case by case.
Crossovers are definitely a special situation and should be looked at very judiciously.

Philosophía
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Phuck right off lol, I couldn't bear the consequences. sad

Look at this assh0le, ruining potential fun.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
I apologize likewise, but it is true:

Earth-10235 Adult Franklin & Valeria Richards traveled back in time to modern day Earth-616,
manipulating events to facilitate the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation's surviving their encounters
with the Council of Reeds and defeating the mad Celestials. Fantastic Four #574 (2010)

http://www.marvunapp.com/master/earthteaz.htm#numbered

Always has been, always will be.

Again, Adult Franklin ... IS ... kid Franklin, just like all the "possible Future" Franklins here:

http://marvel.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=0&search=Franklin%20Richards&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns1=1&ns2=1&ns3=1&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns6=1&ns7=1&ns8=1&ns9=1&ns10=1&ns11=1&ns12=1&ns13=1&ns14=1&ns1

... are also the real kid-Franklin grown up.

Still, every single one, is from a possible future which makes it "alternate"
until that point in history is reached in real-time. Then, it either is, or is not.

Vance Astro (reality-691) visited his grandmother as a young woman in 616, and saw himself as a young man.
This doesn't mean Vance doesn't reside in an alternate possible future of 616. (691)

Many more examples from different books resembling this.

I'll tweet him about it, that way we can avoid a long debate. Like I said: I am not referencing anyone/thing other than Hickman's portrayal of Marvel's timestream. It all takes place in the *same* universe under *his* pen. You'd know that my stance here is quite incontrovertible if you actually bothered to read the explicit material I have already provided... But you're obviously not going to, so whatevs... That's your prerogative.

Just understand that a marvunapp entry and Wiki page(lol?) hardly change Hickman's *on-panel* representation of the timestream. smile

leonidas
have you met ds? that's what he does. dude is a walking talking phukin rain cloud.

Philosophía
I love ideas like these.

I think we should have stuff like it. Say, people agree to have an unspecified battlezone, somebody other than them chooses a random fight and who each will support, and then the loser will have to support a poster/character he normally doesn't. I'd have them fight over obscure characters, for one.

It would take a very active forum, but it would be a lot of fun.

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
have you met ds? that's what he does. dude is a walking talking phukin rain cloud. thumb up

DS is a bonafide thing-ruiner.

DarkSaint85
Reported for hate crimes.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said: I am not referencing anyone/thing other than Hickman's portrayal of Marvel's timestream. It all takes place in the *same* universe under *his* pen. You'd know that my stance here is quite incontrovertible if you actually bothered to read the explicit material I have already provided... But you're obviously not going to, so whatevs... That's your prerogative.

Just understand that a marvunapp entry and Wiki page(lol?) hardly change Hickman's *on-panel* representation of the timestream. smile

yeah, but it's not just him--hickman i mean. you probably saw but that uncanny avengers arc that was brought up and that i expanded on earlier is another example of....murkiness. the apoc twins ushered in a particular future. the characters in said future were 616 characters (though since it is only a 'possible' future (???) according to one viewpoint they shouldn't be considered 616 anymore) who traveled back in time and prevented the future from happening then....picked up and carried on. in the present 616.

so does that mean the feats they accomplished are unusable while they were in that future? then they ARE usable once they return even though they were explicitly the same characters? confused they were 616, then...not 616, then...616 again? blink

i'd love for someone on the other side of this to explain that the way they understand it. because it certainly isn't an isolated instance and it could easily have made a 'what if the apoc twins won?'.

examples like that really make it seem like this should be looked at on a case by case basis and discussed logically. with those capable of doing so of course. /shrug

StiltmanFTW
You had some serious guts to start this thread, leo. A real can of worms.

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, but it's not just him--hickman i mean. you probably saw but that uncanny avengers arc that was brought up and that i expanded on earlier is another example of....murkiness. the apoc twins ushered in a particular future. the characters in said future were 616 characters (though since it is only a 'possible' future (???) according to one viewpoint they shouldn't be considered 616 anymore) who traveled back in time and prevented the future from happening then....picked up and carried on. in the present 616.

so does that mean the feats they accomplished are unusable while they were in that future? then they ARE usable once they return even though they were explicitly the same characters? confused they were 616, then...not 616, then...616 again? blink

i'd love for someone on the other side of this to explain that the way they understand it. because it certainly isn't an isolated instance and it could easily have made a 'what if the apoc twins won?'.

examples like that really make it seem like this should be looked at on a case by case basis and discussed logically. with those capable of doing so of course. /shrug The way I see it: feats from characters native to 616 are absolutely usable, regardless of the universe/time they travel to...Unless, of course, they are altered in some way by this travel. /shrug

But like you said: this should absolutely be looked at on a case-by-case basis, because clearly different writers in Marvel have many different opinions on how it works... They obviously do not all adhere to one strict cosmology/law, regardless what some here may think.


However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.

Again, Hickman's take on Marvel time-flow is overtly clear. It's all 616. smile

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007

However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.


if you just figured that bit out by yourself.....

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/files/2013/06/audience-applause.jpg

that is a pretty unarguable point. and in this case i agree with hickman's take. if eternity represents all time, they a separate timeline SHOULD still remain under eternity's (the 616 eternity') purview imo, regardless, hickman did make it a specific issue that the gems don't work in other universes. love to hear mrm's take on that point, and abhi's as well. that makes a few instances of futures NOT being equated with separate realities.

leonidas
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You had some serious guts to start this thread, leo. A real can of worms.

lol

i just figured it was a discussion worth having and so far i'm happy to say there has been some pretty good stuff here i think. differences of opinion to be sure, but good discussion at least all around.

my main point is sort of this--we know the characters well enough to know what is and isn't a 'common depiction' of them. if that's true, and they are shown 'commonly' then it really shouldn't matter too much where we draw feats from. imo anyway. and if someone feels a depiction or feat isn't valid, that person should be able to explain or prove why it should be considered so, same as you would need to in any debate. seems simple enough to me. /shrug

Sin I AM
Too many cans of worms

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
The way I see it: feats from characters native to 616 are absolutely usable, regardless of the universe/time they travel to...Unless, of course, they are altered in some way by this travel. /shrug

But like you said: this should absolutely be looked at on a case-by-case basis, because clearly different writers in Marvel have many different opinions on how it works... They obviously do not all adhere to one strict cosmology/law, regardless what some here may think.


However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.

Again, Hickman's take on Marvel time-flow is overtly clear. It's all 616. smile

thumb up

I think ever since Hickman, it's been more consistent that travelling to the future = staying in 616 continuity.

leonidas
so that would mean anything accomplished by cap while visiting those futures (alt realities by some accounts) would be canon and fully usable in a forum setting. which really only makes sense. /shrug

if nothing else this thread has at least highlighted the need--and benefits--of looking at cases individually.

Philosophía

Galan007
Originally posted by Phil
thumb up

I think ever since Hickman, it's been more consistent that travelling to the future = staying in 616 continuity. Agreed. thumb up

And tbh, I think that makes a helluva lot more sense than "whenever you time-travel, you're actually visiting an alternate universe." /shrug

leonidas
only phil would thumb up himself. laughing out loud

and i've agreed with the point all along--that's not how it's done in the forum though--at least not usually. and the question of whether or not the future is part of 616 is still not always easily established. i'll use my logan/hulk example and the uncanny avengers/reigning arcs. finally home from work and have access to the book....

some what ifs, like the logan story, start in 616 THEN diverge:

https://imgur.com/a/MTjsE

uatu clearly states he is watching OUR world. but, "the moment he decides to deliberately disobey his orders a new reality diverges into being'.

https://imgur.com/a/chGxr

up until the moment of divergence that what if was set in the 616. therefore, if logan went ahead, traveled back in time and did NOT kill hulk, it would be exactly the same as the uncanny arc and the reigning arc. by that reasoning, feats of logan in that book should be usable in discussion, no?

you'll say no (maybe) because it says a new REALITY diverged into being. but the situation is literally identical to the others i mentioned, and others have also mentioned. this inconsistency highlights the reason that a case-by-case look is pretty important imo and that the "standard" should be re-examined.

DarkSaint85
And then, what happens if in that What If, Wolvy had a flashback to the time he and Banner were best of buddies, and it was Banner who gave him adamantium?

leonidas
but he didn't. thumb up mags did make logan kill himself though. the rest of the book was basically true to the characters, or at least they didn't do anything that was very noteworthy.

Philosophía
The Majority of What Ifs are like that. A single decision leading to the creation of an alternate reality.

That does not mean that whatever happens following that decision in the alternate reality is valid for the 616 version -- because it's an alternate version of the character. If we go that route, then most what Ifs would be valid, because it just depends on the action they took, and what follows is within their capabilities, even if it takes place in another Universe.

If 616 Logan had traveled back in the past, and changed it so that he would have killed Hulk - assuming he could, effectively rewriting the 616 Universe, it would count - because it's that same character, not a version created in an alternate Universe.

We're literally typing the same thing over and over again.

leonidas
and if he did, we'd know it wasn't 616, or that the divergence happened earlier. and the watcher would be a big fat liar.

DarkSaint85
I know he didn't, but my point is, if we assume that up until the point of divergence the histories are EXACTLY the same (as they should be), what happens if they show events prior to the divergence which differs?

Or feelings? For example, if Wolverine had a thought just before he killed the Hulk, of how much he always wanted buttsex with the Hulk (an extreme example, but that kinda thing).

leonidas
well, the buttsex thing would be in character, so that fine. thumb up

if he went all ooc then it would be easy to show, no? that's what i'm saying. if the character remains in character, it shouldn't much matter the source. if he/she goes way out, then it shouldn't. its part of the reason we look at outliers already with some skepticism.

@phil: the character (logan in this case) wasn't a version created in an alternate universe. he was 616--until the moment of divergence. nut he doesn't become....NOT logan in that instance.

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: the character (logan in this case) wasn't a version created in an alternate universe. he was 616--until the moment of divergence. Yes - like the majority of What Ifs. They start of saying what happened in the main continuity, and what changed to create the What If Universe. The Logan who actually killed the Hulk is from an alternate Universe. If that was 616 Logan that was explicitly from the future of 616 Universe, it would have been valid for the 616 version. But it's explicitly from an alternate Universe.

Galan007
Here is a prime example...

In this particular What If, Uatu and another Watcher tell us how the events of Siege supposedly played-out in 616. They outright say that the exertion required for Sentry to kill Ares left him weakened/vulnerable, which is what ultimately led to his defeat:
https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/35373884_What_If_200_004.jpg

...Which contradicts what we saw/learned in the *actual* event. So which interpretation do we use..?

DarkSaint85
thumb up that was what I was getting at.

leonidas
@phil: that logan wasn't "from" a different reality. not unless you want to say uatu lied and wasn't watching our world. that logan simply made a different DECISION. the decision is the point when the 2 logans were "born". the killer logan was born in the 616, but was designated as something OTHER than 616 because of the decision. least that's how i see it.

in regards to the sentry what if--we know already that the events didn't fall that way, so to me that looks like it would be set in a different reality. that would seem to indicate that sentry was weaker, or maybe that ares was more powerful....?

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: that logan wasn't "from" a different reality. not unless you want to say uatu lied and wasn't watching our world. that logan simply made a different DECISION. the decision is the point when the 2 logans were "born". the killer logan was born in the 616, but was designated as something OTHER than 616 because of the decision. least that's how i see it.
Leo, that's how What Ifs work. They showed what happened in the main reality, then they show the point of divergence. The actual act of killing the Hulk happened in the alternate reality, with the alternate reality Logan and alternate reality Hulk.

Originally posted by leonidas
sentry what if--we know already that the events didn't fall that way, so to me that looks like it would be set in a different reality. that would seem to indicate that sentry was weaker, or maybe that ares was more powerful....? It literally says in your reality it happened that way, which is the same line of description you're using for the logan what if...

Galan007
Originally posted by leonidas
in regards to the sentry what if--we know already that the events didn't fall that way, so to me that looks like it would be set in a different reality. that would seem to indicate that sentry was weaker, or maybe that ares was more powerful....? Uatu and the other Watcher are recalling what happened in 616 there.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Galan007
Here is a prime example...

In this particular What If, Uatu and another Watcher tell us how the events of Siege supposedly played-out in 616. They outright say that the exertion required for Sentry to kill Ares left him weakened/vulnerable, which is what ultimately led to his defeat:
https://s7d3.turboimg.net/t1/35373884_What_If_200_004.jpg

...Which contradicts what we saw/learned in the *actual* event. So which interpretation do we use..?
It's been a while since I've read the arc so the whole things fuzzy, but what's the actual contradiction there?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's been a while since I've read the arc so the whole things fuzzy, but what's the actual contradiction there?

He wasn't exerted at all after killing Ares in 616. Stated/shown/implied nowhere, not even in the interviews.

Galan007
^ The contradiction is that the energy Sentry expended to kill Ares was minimal, and had nothing to do with his eventual defeat. Per the arc itself: Sentry allowed himself to die -- that's how/why he was beaten.


{edit}
Stilt ninja'd me... sad

StiltmanFTW
@Galan

Also got confirmed in the interview with Bendis, iirc. Scot must have the link on hand.

Philosophía
Not if the What If has anything to say about it thumb up

darthgoober
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He wasn't exerted at all after killing Ares in 616. Stated/shown/implied nowhere, not even in the interviews.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ The contradiction is that the energy Sentry expended to kill Ares was minimal, and had nothing to do with his eventual defeat. Per the arc itself: Sentry allowed himself to die -- that's how/why he was beaten.


{edit}
Stilt ninja'd me... sad

Ah.


But let me just toss something out... what if he was? I mean let's face it, there are rare occasions were Sentry is noted as being stupidly powerful. You know containing the cosmic cube, stalemating Galactus, and the whole Molecule Man thing right? Well it's sometimes noted that when things like fights take place in the upper echelons what people see is simply an image that their brains can grasp/process. We know from his fight with Nate Grey that Ares was supposed to be somewhat unique right? Something about he's ALWAYS the God of War, always has been always will be or something like that right? So what if Sentry did there was more than simply tearing apart the physical body of a class 80, but rather something like simaltaniously tearing his physical body, canceling his Olympion Immortality, and kind of messing with the fabric of reality to undo that unique status that Ares had. I mean the fact that there wasn't specific mention of vast effort doesn't mean that there wasn't a lot going on behind the scenes. The visuals of the flashback doesn't really depict anything differently than the actual event(it still doesn't LOOK like it's taking a lot of effort) after all.

Galan007
"What If", indeed... And that is exactly why I posted that scene. thumb up

Should the Watchers' statements in that What If take precedence over what we were told in the arc itself..?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Galan007
"What If", indeed... And that is exactly why I posted that scene. thumb up

Should the Watchers' statements in that What If take precedence over what we were told in the arc itself..?
Well, Watcher's DO tend to know what's going better than anyone on the ground. That's kind of the whole reason they were created. Besides even if it wasn't the original intent when the feat took place, rectons DO happen. Also, would it even be an actual recton? Was there specific mention of it being effortless, or was there just no mention of it requiring a lot of effort? Omission doesn't necessarily equal a contradicting statement. Don't forget, in the issue it took place all that's mentioned about the final shots of Supes and DD was that windows were shattered.

leonidas
Originally posted by Galan007
Uatu and the other Watcher are recalling what happened in 616 there.

ok, cool. so it's clear that sentry issue is a definite alternate universe. anyone disagree?

@phil: the difference between the 2 is pretty clear to me--the moment of divergence is made clear to us in one. it is logan's decision to disobey that caused it. with sentry we have no idea where the divergence occurred--unless it's somewhere in the issue--don't think i've read that tbh. you sound like you're saying the entire logan issue was an alt universe. but the alt reality never existed until the decision made by logan. it's stated clearly. same as the uncanny avengers. they failed to save the earth. the instant that happened, the world died and a new future was born. but, they continued to fight. they righted the wrong and won and are again in the 616. how is that different from the logan situation? the ONLY difference is that they went back and saved things. logan didn't have access to kang so couldn't go back and NOT kill hulk. do you think the feats the avengers accomplished in that 'future' were done by 'other universal avengers'? or because they did come back it's completely different situations?

and if the universes were the same up until logan decided to kill hulk, how does that make that logan any different, ability-wise than our own logan (at least of that era?)

Philosophía
Before we continue..

Leo, how many What Ifs have you read?

Because this...
Originally posted by leonidas
and if the universes were the same up until logan decided to kill hulk, how does that make that logan any different, ability-wise than our own logan (at least of that era?) Looks like it's written by somebody who hasn't read a lot.

You do realize that if you apply your logic of 'if everything is the same up until that point, and a decision changes everything, how does that not apply the the mainstream version?' is literally the premise of almost every What If? So you're literally saying that what happens in What Ifs should be canon for abilities in mainstream?

--

Originally posted by leonidas
but the alt reality never existed until the decision made by logan. Yes, at which point the Hulk killing takes place in an alternate reality, with an alternate reality Logan and an alternate reality Hulk.

A whole NEW Universe is created, with separate versions of the characters, whose events you're trying to pass off as valid to the main Universe, just because it branched off of it.

Every What If branches off of the main Universe, but we don't say the characters have the same capabilities, because they don't. Powerlevels in What Ifs are all over the place.

leonidas
i've actually read...a LOT of what ifs, which is why i think SOME should be usable. the logan one is fine imo. some/many what ifs have outcomes that result from the divergence that change the characters dramatically though. what if daredevil had spiderman's powers? for a made up example. what if the ff hadn't got their powers is another. those divergent realities have exactly different characters born at the moment of divergence. you seem like you were saying that the logan in that issue was completely different from ours. he wasn't--he was precisely the same UNTIL the decision was made. then THAT logan was thrust into a different universe but why should he BE different in terms of his abilities?

again, i'm not advocating all what ifs are good to use. some also take place over huge amounts of time where change can build up to....everything. but some should be just fine. it depends on where/how the divergence happens and what precedes from it. and if i'm not mistaken, i think that IS a rule here at kmc. what if peter parker saved rick jones? not usable, clearly. unless something can be proven to be different about a character's abilities in these cases though, i don't see why they shouldn't be usable here.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

Like I said: I am not referencing anyone/thing other than Hickman's portrayal of Marvel's timestream. It all takes place in the *same* universe under *his* pen.
If that were the case, then there are two Franklin's existing within the same universe.

Wait, but there's several dozens more existing simultaneously withIN 616,
cause "adult" Frank from Hickman's run, isn't the only "Adult" Frank from a possible future.
Originally posted by Galan007

You'd know that my stance here is quite incontrovertible if you actually bothered to read the explicit material I have already provided... But you're obviously not going to, so whatevs... That's your prerogative.
I read it from your scans, and I read when it was published after I downloaded it some time ago.

My (or the) "prerogative" is not mine, it's Marvel's. Always has been.
Originally posted by Galan007

Just understand that a marvunapp entry and Wiki page(lol?) hardly change Hickman's *on-panel* representation of the timestream.
"Marvunapp?" ... "Wiki?" ...

If you google Franklin Richards,
any and every site imaginable has Hickman's Adult Franklin manifesting in 616 from Alternate reality-10235.
Also, while that "wiki" page may make ya giggle, it's 100% legit concerning the complete listing of alternate Franklin Richards'.
BTW. Every universe they (that wiki page) presents, can be verified at Marvunapp,
I just didn't wanna go nuts copy/pasting 30+ links of individual realities from Marvunapp pages.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey look friend,
if you can find that page where Hickman via narration or via character states Franklin came from "616," you got it.

I know he came from one of 616's Futures, like Vance from GOTG reality 691, and every other cat from possible futures,
so posting he came from the future doesn't define anything, since they all came from a possible 616 "future."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it were true, and Hickman's "future" is the definitive 616 future,
then we'll never again see another story involving the "future,"
since Hickman dominates as yall believe.

Writer's would have to adhere to Hickman's story since they can't interrupt his vision,
writers would have to work around Hickman's idea,
writers would not be able to introduce anything new leading u to Adult Franklin's future,
because since it's the absolute future, it can't be changed.

Writers would have to curb their stories to begin after Adult Franklin' future.

I'm 99.9% certain, that is NOT the case.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

The way I see it: feats from characters native to 616 are absolutely usable, regardless of the universe/time they travel to...Unless, of course, they are altered in some way by this travel.
thumb up
Originally posted by Galan007

However, I did just think of something else: in the sequences I posted earlier, the time gem brought Cap(and co.) to that point in the distant future, and then 'ported them away after their convo with Franklin. This is quite important because under Hickman, the infinity gems ONLY function in their native universe. So if the future they traveled to would have indeed been some entirely different universe(as some are arguing), the gem would have been completely inoperable... And mind you: Cap traveled to SEVERAL points in the future with the time gem during that arc, so this was NOT an isolated incident.
The Time Gem travelled across countless universes (futures included) with Starlin's latest work.

Also, these "futures," although they reside in alternate realities, they're still linked to 616.

So, I'm not surprised the Time Gem worked.
Originally posted by Galan007

Again, Hickman's take on Marvel time-flow is overtly clear. It's all 616.
He's been tweeted, waiting for reply. smile

Galan007
laughing out loud My goodness. Resorting to Twitter for 'proof' again? Heh, interesting...

Anyway, I guess everyone else here is wrong except good ol' Mr. M... So there's really no reason to get into it further with you. thumb up

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well, Watcher's DO tend to know what's going better than anyone on the ground. That's kind of the whole reason they were created. Besides even if it wasn't the original intent when the feat took place, rectons DO happen. Also, would it even be an actual recton? Was there specific mention of it being effortless, or was there just no mention of it requiring a lot of effort? Omission doesn't necessarily equal a contradicting statement. Don't forget, in the issue it took place all that's mentioned about the final shots of Supes and DD was that windows were shattered. Well, nothing in the series itself suggested that Sentry's extermination of Ares was anything but effortless and required minimal power expenditure. And, while I am certainly no authority on the matter(some know Sentry MUCH better than myself), it was confirmed that Sentry/Void was only stopped because he *wanted* to be stopped -- he *allowed* himself to die. No mention of Ares being integral to his defeat at all.

In fact, that line from the What If is the only time is was so much as alluded to on panel that the slaying of Ares is what weakened Sentry enough to be beaten... Hence the differing opinions here.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Galan007

laughing out loud... To all.

Apparently everyone else here is wrong, except good ol' Mr. M.
no expression ...

I'm debating respectfully, ... so why are you turing this into something ugly?

I'll let your first attempt to corrode the debate slide, but, if you wish, you know I'm game for the ugly.

Galan007
Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, I guess everyone else here is wrong except good ol' Mr. M... So there's really no reason to get into it further with you. thumb up

Mr Master
I see. So be it. Bring it son, let's do it all over again.
Originally posted by Galan007

My goodness. Resorting to Twitter for 'proof' again?
I taste fear.

Galan007
Holy shit. facepalm

Sorry, leo. The dude just can't let things go... I'm still interested in this thread/topic, though. thumb up

Mr Master
"Sorry Leo?" ... man PHUCK U! dogs.

I'm at peace posting my mind respectfully and you start the problems, and then ...

"sorry leo, dude can't let things go" ... wtf?

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
then THAT logan was thrust into a different universe but why should he BE different in terms of his abilities? You're using random terms like thrust - as if somebody teleported 616 Logan into an alternate Universe to beat 616 Hulk, who was somewhat also teleported there. No.

616 Logan wasn't thrust into anything. A new version of Logan in a new version of the Universe fighting a new version of Hulk was created, the moment the change occured. 616 Logan and the Logan who killed Hulk are two distinct beings, living in different Universes, fighting different Hulks.

Aaaaanyway, this is circles. Sorry leo, but we'll agree to disagree.

Badabing
I hope this can be resolved without mod intervention. The 5 people discussing the topic are pretty well versed in comics lore. There's no reason it should escalate.

Can somebody PM the thread(s) which started this discussion?

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by Badabing
I hope this can be resolved without mod intervention. The 5 people discussing the topic are pretty well versed in comics lore. There's no reason it should escalate.

Can somebody PM the thread(s) which started this discussion?
This is not making KMC great again.
Lay down the law dammmmnit!!!!
We want to be ruled!!!!

Badabing
laughing out loud

darthgoober
Originally posted by Galan007
: Well, nothing in the series itself suggested that Sentry's extermination of Ares was anything but effortless and required minimal power expenditure. And, while I am certainly no authority on the matter(some know Sentry MUCH better than myself), it was confirmed that Sentry/Void was only stopped because he *wanted* to be stopped -- he *allowed* himself to die. No mention of Ares being integral to his defeat at all.

In fact, that line from the What If is the only time is was so much as alluded to on panel that the slaying of Ares is what weakened Sentry enough to be beaten... Hence the differing opinions here.

What if taking out Ares that way WAS part of him wanting to be beaten? Think about it, let's suppose just for the sake of argument that that the Watcher's statement was accurate and Sentry ripping Ares was as involved as I hypothesized... wouldn't it be a LOT easier just to rid himself of the God by tossing him into the sun or something like that? If Sentry were at war with himself and just about ready to give into his suicidal urges, burning up WAY more energy than necessary just to take out Ares in a dramatic fashion could go a long way in regards to helping the heroes of Earth eventually defeat him.

And don't get me wrong because I'm in no way pitching what I'm saying as being the "right" interpretation of events, at this point I'm just idly throwing out a way to tie everything together without dismissing anything.

abhilegend
There is also the example of What if WWH. In one What If Hulk was incinerated by the blast on Skaar and Caiera survived when in actual reality Hulk survived and Caiera was killed. Black Bolt killed Sentry and Dr Strange with a whisper.

So Caiera>>>Hulk now?

Galan007
Originally posted by darthgoober
What if taking out Ares that way WAS part of him wanting to be beaten? Think about it, let's suppose just for the sake of argument that that the Watcher's statement was accurate and Sentry ripping Ares was as involved as I hypothesized... wouldn't it be a LOT easier just to rid himself of the God by tossing him into the sun or something like that? If Sentry were at war with himself and just about ready to give into his suicidal urges, burning up WAY more energy than necessary just to take out Ares in a dramatic fashion could go a long way in regards to helping the heroes of Earth eventually defeat him.

And don't get me wrong because I'm in no way pitching what I'm saying as being the "right" interpretation of events, at this point I'm just idly throwing out a way to tie everything together without dismissing anything. I am certainly not dismissing the idea(though it would be hard for me to hold a line from a What If in higher regard than info from the actual series.) However, there are probably people out there who know a lot more about Sentry than me who might want to weigh-in here one way or the other.

This is why I wanted to point out that What If scene in the first place, though. It's the exact type of thing that needs to be discussed here. thumb up

One_Angry_Scot

leonidas
Originally posted by Phil
You're using random terms like thrust - as if somebody teleported 616 Logan into an alternate Universe to beat 616 Hulk, who was somewhat also teleported there. No.

616 Logan wasn't thrust into anything. A new version of Logan in a new version of the Universe fighting a new version of Hulk was created, the moment the change occured. 616 Logan and the Logan who killed Hulk are two distinct beings, living in different Universes, fighting different Hulks.

Aaaaanyway, this is circles. Sorry leo, but we'll agree to disagree.

fair enuff, but you're sort of skirting the main issue. they ARE different--for one thing they are both dead in that universe. but they became different ONLY after the decision is made. until then they are exactly the same, hence new logan's abilities and history were the same as our logan's. did they change in that instant the universe split? why would they? did he get a new history all of a sudden? maybe you think so, but i don't know why you would because he shared logan's history until that instant....

anyway, you're right--we likely won't agree. and to reiterate--i'm not advocating using what ifs all the time. hell, they'd rarely be applicable. but in some cases where depictions are the same as normal or the changes don't result in a change i don't see why they should be declared unusable as a standard. /shrug

@abhi--again, you're right, (as is phil) there are a lot of cases where what happens in what ifs is pretty ridiculous. those aren't the issues i'm talking about though.

@bada--the thread idea came from the odin/darkseid thread with the discussion of the usability of the great darkness saga to support darkseid. recent changes to dc canon would seem to indicate almost every showing is now canon even showings that at one time may have been disallowed.

my thought was we should discuss seeing if there was a way we could reconsider SOME showings in marvel (and dc is it came up) to try and...even things maybe? or at least come up with a list of showings/arcs that are considered controversial to start a discussion about them. discussions been very good and respectful so far, so not sure if someone reported things or what, but.....nothing to see here. we are not the droids you're looking for.....

9img]https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JJKs3I69qfaQleE/giphy.gif

leonidas
anyway, i'm genuinely curious about other arcs people are concerned about or feel maybe should be considered fair game in debates but maybe are afraid to bring up. thoughts or ideas?

any other ideas on alt universes vs alt timelines and how they are different--if they ARE different? is there proof somewhere that universes can be born that did NOT originate in 616? (i...sort of know there is, just looking to try and better establish the differences we've talked about....)

really would like to know some more arcs people would like to look at though. thumb up

leonidas
oh and one more big take-away from this thread--in his prime, digi used to be a bad a$$. thumb up

Philosophía
Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, i'm genuinely curious about other arcs people are concerned about or feel maybe should be considered fair game in debates but maybe are afraid to bring up. thoughts or ideas? Remember the S/B arc where this happened:



https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/58694/1109328-016_superman_batman_015__rembrandt_dcp_.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/5/58694/1109329-017_superman_batman_015__rembrandt_dcp_.jpg

Yeah, this one. It's basic time-travel dystopia.

DarkSaint85
I don't read poor.

Martian_mind
There's a lot of pages here, so I'm just going to ask. Did we come to a consensus about DC One Million?

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't read poor.

That's Phil's native language, back in the day he was a stripteaser in Zimbabwe.

Philosophía
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That's Phil's native language, back in the day he was a stripteaser in Zimbabwe. Hey, no doxing.

Galan007
Originally posted by Martian_mind
There's a lot of pages here, so I'm just going to ask. Did we come to a consensus about DC One Million? A consensus regarding what, exactly? confused

leonidas
yeah, not sure what he's looking for either.

TheHulkster
This started when I asked whether GDS Darkseid is canon.

Badabing
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't read poor. Damn...laughing out loud

HueyFreeman
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't read poor. I wont lie I spit out my water on this during a meeting . Dammit DS

leonidas
Originally posted by Badabing
Damn...laughing out loud

don't encourage him. sneer

since you're checking things out bada, do you know if certain what ifs and alt timelines CAN be argued for within the rules?

leonidas
regarding phil's scan: i've always been a little confused on the issue of superman/batman in general (forgetting that absolute power arc) and it's relevance to canon. is it usually considered canon, and are feats from there usually admissible here? given the recent changes at dc, it would seem to indicate that superman/batman WOULD be viable in the forum. certainly with darkseid's appearances, it would seem to indicate THOSE issues at least would be canon to darkseid, no? and darkseid made an appearance in one of those alt timelines supes and bats were bouncing through. would THAT appearance also be canon to him??

and while we're on the topic of the canonicity of superman/batman, what about trinity? usable in the forum? arguments for why, or why not? (or are both only NOW usable given recent events in dc...?)

Badabing
Originally posted by leonidas
don't encourage him. sneer

since you're checking things out bada, do you know if certain what ifs and alt timelines CAN be argued for within the rules? I thought it was settled that alternate timelines referenced in canon timelines had a chance for consideration, or characters like Mxy who regularly traverse dimensions/timelines..

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Galan007
A consensus regarding what, exactly? confused


It's canonicity. Do we accept that as the ultimate future of DC, or not? Could we use the implied future feats as actual feats, or would they be considered inadmissible, as they haven't *technically* happened yet?

Galan007
Originally posted by Martian_mind
It's canonicity. Do we accept that as the ultimate future of DC, or not? Could we use the implied future feats as actual feats, or would they be considered inadmissible, as they haven't *technically* happened yet? Definitely the canon future, as characters from DC1M have consistently popped-up in other books over the years.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by leonidas
oh and one more big take-away from this thread--in his prime, digi used to be a bad a$$. thumb up

No matter how much Digi used you like a CHEAP WHORE you keep coming back for more!!!

leonidas
Originally posted by Badabing
I thought it was settled that alternate timelines referenced in canon timelines had a chance for consideration, or characters like Mxy who regularly traverse dimensions/timelines..

good to have re-verified occasionally. thumb up

Originally posted by Galan007
Definitely the canon future, as characters from DC1M have consistently popped-up in other books over the years.

and reaffirmed with bada's post as usable material in the forum. thumb up less sure about THIS part of his post though:

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Could we use the implied future feats as actual feats, or would they be considered inadmissible, as they haven't *technically* happened yet?

that's a different can of worms i'm thinking.... sounds like he's asking if we just assume certain things WILL happen. not sure about that. they'd need to be shown i think....?

Originally posted by leonidas
regarding phil's scan: i've always been a little confused on the issue of superman/batman in general (forgetting that absolute power arc) and it's relevance to canon. is it usually considered canon, and are feats from there usually admissible here? given the recent changes at dc, it would seem to indicate that superman/batman WOULD be viable in the forum. certainly with darkseid's appearances, it would seem to indicate THOSE issues at least would be canon to darkseid, no? and darkseid made an appearance in one of those alt timelines supes and bats were bouncing through. would THAT appearance also be canon to him??

and while we're on the topic of the canonicity of superman/batman, what about trinity? usable in the forum? arguments for why, or why not? (or are both only NOW usable given recent events in dc...?)

confused

Digi
Originally posted by darthgoober
Then you and I have different experiences with them. In my experience they're much more likely to say something like "You know no one takes him seriously, you shouldn't even bother talking to him" and allow a problem poster to continue unabated. That doesn't mean that I'm trying to rally the townsfolk to get them removed from office, force them to change, or anything like that, they're mods on a private forum and can run it however they want(that's why I adhere even to rules/rulings that I have serious issues with), I'm simply saying that they're not as likely to step in as the old mods were to clarify points of ambiguity in the rules and other general nonsense so if we adopt an even more "open to interpretation" stance of the rules there's going to be even more BS to put up with.

As a mod in name only at this point, the only blame is at the feet of Raz. No one should be expected to have modded this forum as long as any mod has. I mean, we have teenagers on here, yeah? So, no joke, when I became a mod on KMC, some of them were probably transitioning away from diapers. So it's either the few remaining mods who give any sh*ts do what little they can, or there's no oversight whatsoever. There are no other options, and no way to correct the situation without an active Admin. Frankly, I'm amazed any active mods aren't more apathetic, and anyone still trying to keep order, or even responding to reports and PMs, is a goddamn hero as far as I'm concerned.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
We want to be ruled!!!!

...and just when I think there's no sanity left on KMC, someone restores my faith in you underlings. In the end, you will always kneel!

uhuh

Originally posted by leonidas
oh and one more big take-away from this thread--in his prime, digi used to be a bad a$$. thumb up

Listen to your elder, folks. He knows what's up.

thumb up

darthgoober
Originally posted by Digi
As a mod in name only at this point, the only blame is at the feet of Raz. No one should be expected to have modded this forum as long as any mod has. I mean, we have teenagers on here, yeah? So, no joke, when I became a mod on KMC, some of them were probably transitioning away from diapers. So it's either the few remaining mods who give any sh*ts do what little they can, or there's no oversight whatsoever. There are no other options, and no way to correct the situation without an active Admin. Frankly, I'm amazed any active mods aren't more apathetic, and anyone still trying to keep order, or even responding to reports and PMs, is a goddamn hero as far as I'm concerned.


Oh I wasn't trying to lay any blame at all for how the forum is run, I was simply pointing out that it was run differently back in the day and that current circumstances don't allow for the truly epic debates we used to have with the same rate of frequency. They can still happen, but they don't happen anywhere near as often.

Digi
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I wasn't trying to lay any blame at all for how the forum is run, I was simply pointing out that it was run differently back in the day and that current circumstances don't allow for the truly epic debates we used to have with the same rate of frequency. They can still happen, but they don't happen anywhere near as often.

Right right, I understood you. Just not everyone is aware of why it's the way it is. By rights, KMC should have died years ago given the lack of modern updates and new leadership.

leonidas
it's too cool to die. thumb up

and does no one know about the canonicity or trinity and superman/batman? seriously? is there proof somewhere that shows that both series definnitively do or do NOT take place in the mainstream dcu?

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