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I figured that this topic deserves a thread of it's own since it so frequently derails threads of all colors.


So Cap's stats... "Human", "Peak Human", "Pinnacle of Human Evolution", "Super Human"... What are you guy's thoughts and why?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Brubaker elaborated on the peak human thing nicely, having interpreted it as the peak human potential, evolutionary next-step, something no human from our time can ever train himself to be.


https://d30y9cdsu7xlg0.cloudfront.net/png/242201-200.png

Originally posted by Deadline
Caps is above peak human. These are quotes from Ed Brubaker. Thanks go to Daredevil1 for finding them.

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060418204829&q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
More quotes on CV:

I agree with parts of a lot of people's comments here and elsewhere. But I think it's a bit funny to see people get so bent out of shape when a guy who's given something called the "Super Soldier Serum" turns out to be a bit more than the average human. He's been leaping out of the windows of eight story buildings and across city streets in NYC, dodging bullets, doing amazing feats of speed and strength, since I started reading the book in the early 70s.

My take has always been that Cap is the peak of human POTENTIAL. What humans might someday be able to do, physically, he already can. If it was just about having an olypic-level athlete, do you really think all these groups and scientists would have been wasting 50plus years trying to replicate the SSS?

All I've done is have him say outloud what's always been pretty clear to me as a fan of the character. He's always been a lot stronger and faster than the average well-trained athlete. And I've always hated the Batman comparisons. Batman trained himself, Cap got given a miracle serum. I'm not making that up or changing anything.

Daredevil is more like Batman, physically, and yet in Born Again, Cap races by him so fast he's a breeze. As for Cap running 60mph. In the comic, I think he says he can run a mile in a little over a minute when he HAS to. It's not even implied that he can keep that up all day. It's a full-on burst of speed, when he has to.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/captain-america-rogers/4005-1442/forums/is-cap-peak-human-or-super-human-721245/

Super Soldier Serum. Vita Rays. Lazarus Formula. Peak human performance or close to it after having SSS purged from his system... c'mon.

Super human.

by feats clearly super human, same for Batman

Originally posted by darthgoober
I figured that this topic deserves a thread of it's own since it so frequently derails threads of all colors.


So Cap's stats... "Human", "Peak Human", "Pinnacle of Human Evolution", "Super Human"... What are you guy's thoughts and why?

Can you do Panther and Wolverine next ?!

certainly superhuman and the reasons are as simple as it gets--because that's what the feats show. /shrug

Super Human

He's a super soldier.

That's in the name.

Super human

Hmmm but if his feats can be replicated by mere humans it takes em down a peg

but...they can't be.

Originally posted by leonidas
but...they can't be.

Says who?

Everyone with a brain.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Everyone with a brain.

Since when does the general populace know anything? Stop being a sheep

Clearly superhuman, and as put well by the author, he is not Batman with a shield.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I figured that this topic deserves a thread of it's own since it so frequently derails threads of all colors.


So Cap's stats... "Human", "Peak Human", "Pinnacle of Human Evolution", "Super Human"... What are you guy's thoughts and why?
Pinnacle in human evolution.

Humans are stronger and faster now than they were 50 years ago.
Assuming everything stays normal, 50 years from now humans would be stronger and faster than humans of today.

Cap is as strong as a human can possibly be, while still being human in DNA.

Writer's don't know how much force shit takes to do when they write a scene or feat. They are using their suspension of disbelief. Basically, writers think like, "If Cap is the strongest a human can possibly be then he may be able to.....(insert a feat)." But the intentions from Marvel is pinnacle.

If anyone thinks Cap is super human because he can perform feats that todays humans can't do, then, by the same logic, Batman is also super human.

But it's a contradiction to be super human and human at the same time.

That's like saying there is a number that is greater than 4 yet equal to 4.

Originally posted by spetznaz
Clearly superhuman, and as put well by the author, he is not Batman with a shield.

Didnt realize writer statements were law.

Originally posted by leonidas
but...they can't be.
Then explain this.

http://i.imgur.com/QWHnzYh.jpg

It's the Kingpin, you fool.

One punch from Fisk would make a hole in Superman's chest...

Kingpin is never described as anything but human.

Kingpin is one the greatest humans TOAA created

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/134553/3972306-screen+shot+2014-07-18+at+7.33.44+pm.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/13/134553/3972307-screen+shot+2014-07-18+at+7.33.50+pm.jpg

yeah, wtf? classic fisk is no where CLOSE to human. there are a dozen scans that would support that.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, wtf? classic fisk is no where CLOSE to human. there are a dozen scans that would support that.


So Kingpin is a mutant or has superstrength despite never labeled as such?

Parker held back. Fisk was always above streetts tho. Common knowledge. Move the topic forward....

Originally posted by abhilegend
So Kingpin is a mutant or has superstrength despite never labeled as such?

yes....? why would he need to be "labeled?" evidence couldn't be any clearer that he is far above a normal human. /shrug

retroactive claims related to parker are meaningless (and ridiculous, tbh). regardless, fisk has tons of strength feats completely unrelated to parker. and i disagree too with the irrelevance of the discussion. it speaks to what 'superhuman' vs 'human' means in the comic book world.

i've brought this up in the past with characters like cap and batman--by rl human standards they are unquestionably superhuman. but comic book humans can sometimes be seen differently. even guys like old school bucky have feats that normal rl humans could never achieve, but by comic book human standards they seem less 'super'. grayson/nw? superhuman? by rl world standards--i'd say absolutely. by comic book standards? probably not.

so goob, are we talking comic book human, or rl human?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So Kingpin is a mutant or has superstrength despite never labeled as such?

Basically, yes. Welcome to comics. /srug

KP was portrayed as obviously superhuman until about the late 90s. He overmatched Spidey in pure strength on multiple occasions (with no holding back on Pete's part that is anywhere near implied by the text), and frankly had better showings against the web-head than numerous explicitly superhuman villains. The scans posted earlier are examples, but there are several others. Hell, even if you buy the "Spider-Man held back" argument (you shouldn't), the dude bent a steel beam the width of my forearm at one point. As they existed back in that Cap fight you posted, it would have been far more shocking if Fisk hadn't clearly overpowered him.

Kingpin was bad ass in the 90s Spiderman cartoon also.

He was stronger than Rhino in that show. lol

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Kingpin was bad ass in the 90s Spiderman cartoon also.

He was stronger than Rhino in that show. lol

They just wanted to stay true to the source material that the comics provided.

But yeah, he was awesome in that show...

Oq8kPo3tyGY

Originally posted by abhilegend
So Kingpin is a mutant

That's what Daredevil thought when they first met...

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Parker held back.

For all my spider-strength, I can't even budge him!

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Kingpin was bad ass in the 90s Spiderman cartoon also.

He was stronger than Rhino in that show. lol



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq8kPo3tyGY

Originally posted by leonidas
yes....? why would he need to be "labeled?" evidence couldn't be any clearer that he is far above a normal human. /shrug

retroactive claims related to parker are meaningless (and ridiculous, tbh). regardless, fisk has tons of strength feats completely unrelated to parker. and i disagree too with the irrelevance of the discussion. it speaks to what 'superhuman' vs 'human' means in the comic book world.

i've brought this up in the past with characters like cap and batman--by rl human standards they are unquestionably superhuman. but comic book humans can sometimes be seen differently. even guys like old school bucky have feats that normal rl humans could never achieve, but by comic book human standards they seem less 'super'. grayson/nw? superhuman? by rl world standards--i'd say absolutely. by comic book standards? probably not.

so goob, are we talking comic book human, or rl human? Originally posted by Digi
Basically, yes. Welcome to comics. /srug

KP was portrayed as obviously superhuman until about the late 90s. He overmatched Spidey in pure strength on multiple occasions (with no holding back on Pete's part that is anywhere near implied by the text), and frankly had better showings against the web-head than numerous explicitly superhuman villains. The scans posted earlier are examples, but there are several others. Hell, even if you buy the "Spider-Man held back" argument (you shouldn't), the dude bent a steel beam the width of my forearm at one point. As they existed back in that Cap fight you posted, it would have been far more shocking if Fisk hadn't clearly overpowered him.
You both just proved that it is possible to be human and perform superhuman feats.

Cap is anotger human with superhuman feats. Just like Kingpin, Ox etc.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
For all my spider-strength, I can't even budge him!

That shit was retconned

Originally posted by Sin I AM
That shit was retconned

No, it wasn't.

If you believe handbooks can actually retcon stuff, I pity you.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No, it wasn't.

If you believe handbooks can actually retcon stuff, I pity you.

Yes it was. And Who the phuck mentioned handbooks? Only u take writer interviews and bs sources like that seriously

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Yes it was. And Who the phuck mentioned handbooks? Only u take writer interviews and bs sources like that seriously

You're on your period?

I never cared much for handbooks, they're secondary or tertiary source at best.

As for interviews, you're wrong, as Pr doesn't mind them either.

--
So, when did it get retconned? Just don't mention "Back in Black", as it's not valid by any means.

People who are supposed to be "normal" humans in comics routinely perform feats that no actual normal humans could perform. Definitions of human, peak human, superhuman...get all wonky in comics.

Remember Vargas, lol.

Ah, yes. Vargas. Another gem in the "peak human" collection... Crimson Commando, too.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
You're on your period?



... ....

Maybe

Originally posted by abhilegend
You both just proved that it is possible to be human and perform superhuman feats.

Cap is anotger human with superhuman feats. Just like Kingpin, Ox etc.

lol

i don't even know what that's supposed to mean. he is, clearly, superhuman by feats. since when does a 'label' in some handbook, supersede on-panel feats? and why does it matter exactly....?

superhuman feats=superhuman. not complicated. /shrug

Originally posted by Sin I AM
... ....

Maybe
TMI

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i don't even know what that's supposed to mean. he is, clearly, superhuman by feats. since when does a 'label' in some handbook, supersede on-panel feats? and why does it matter exactly....?

superhuman feats=superhuman. not complicated. /shrug
How about no otherwise we have to put 90% of street level characters into superhuman category.

If they have the consistent feats, why is that a problem?

.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How about no otherwise we have to put 90% of street level characters into superhuman category.

still not seeing the problem here tbh. feats dictate how they are viewed. /shrug

Kingpin has bested the God of Punishment in every encounter they had.

There is not a single character in either DC or Marvel that could replicate that.

Punisher shat on him in ultimate.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Punisher shat on him in ultimate.

I had no idea they even met in the Ultimate Universe. What book?

Remember Martial Art movies where characters are able to do incredible superhuman things?
You see them fly through the air effortlessly, bust through brick walls, etc.

The premise is that they had to train hard to be this way.

The reason many accepted this is because it's still within the realm of the suspension of disbelief.

This is how comics work, relating to humans.
The characters aren't meant to be superhuman but that they are able to do incredible things due to training.

One simply can't be human and do superhuman things. This is a contradiction. If a human does something then it's proof that a human could do it.

Another angle is that comic humans are different than real humans. And why not? Different universes have different rules.

So in summary, nothing Cap has done is superhuman in terms of humans in his universe. So he's NOT superhuman in his universe in physicality.

He survived being frozen for decades...

Originally posted by leonidas
yes....? why would he need to be "labeled?" evidence couldn't be any clearer that he is far above a normal human. /shrug

retroactive claims related to parker are meaningless (and ridiculous, tbh). regardless, fisk has tons of strength feats completely unrelated to parker. and i disagree too with the irrelevance of the discussion. it speaks to what 'superhuman' vs 'human' means in the comic book world.

i've brought this up in the past with characters like cap and batman--by rl human standards they are unquestionably superhuman. but comic book humans can sometimes be seen differently. even guys like old school bucky have feats that normal rl humans could never achieve, but by comic book human standards they seem less 'super'. grayson/nw? superhuman? by rl world standards--i'd say absolutely. by comic book standards? probably not.

so goob, are we talking comic book human, or rl human?

Hey use whatever def you want. The point of the thread is just to allow people to talk about how THEY see Cap so I'm not trying to lock anyone into a particular line of thinking.

Cap is the peak of what a human can become overall.

So while the are stronger characters that are explicitly human , and some that are faster, he is maximized overall.

Same way Bane is stronger than Batman, even though Bruce trained himself to be the peak of human perfection.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Isnt bane stronger due to venom remnants?

Either due to remnants or because it perm. changed him.

But it was revealed in DCnU, afaik.

Enhanced to the bottom ring of low meta. Pretty simple.

Put it this way....he's above Batman.

"Human" vs "peak human" vs "superhuman" in comic book terms definitely doesn't translate to the world in which we all live.

The biggest problem with trying to make it make sense lies in durability. How often do "street level" heroes, who are theoretically just very athletic humans, get thrown through walls, smashed into by cars, blasted by various types of energy beams, etc, just to get up and keep fighting?

How often do any so-called "peak humans" or slightly below suffer a broken bone? Not often. Without benefit of any sort of healing factor, these guys (and girls) walk away from throwing down with villains who can topple buildings, or more, with barely a scratch, when in reality the strongest/fastest/toughest real-life professional athletes would be in intensive care, or worse.

Comic book "regular" human >>> real-world "peak" human.

Originally posted by GRPerry
"Human" vs "peak human" vs "superhuman" in comic book terms definitely doesn't translate to the world in which we all live.

The biggest problem with trying to make it make sense lies in durability. How often do "street level" heroes, who are theoretically just very athletic humans, get thrown through walls, smashed into by cars, blasted by various types of energy beams, etc, just to get up and keep fighting?

How often do any so-called "peak humans" or slightly below suffer a broken bone? Not often. Without benefit of any sort of healing factor, these guys (and girls) walk away from throwing down with villains who can topple buildings, or more, with barely a scratch, when in reality the strongest/fastest/toughest real-life professional athletes would be in intensive care, or worse.

Comic book "regular" human >>> real-world "peak" human.

Well comics don't use exact science. We should take some feats with a grain of salt. Cap is intended to be peak human. That's all that matters.
Otherwise, we can say stupid shit like dead pool can't harm Cap with a punch since a class 100 being hit Cap with just a scratch. That's why we have the PIS rule that non one uses.