Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Vaylin>Outlander. That the Outlander needed the help of both arcann and senya is rather telling

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Vaylin>Outlander. That the Outlander needed the help of both arcann and senya is rather telling Holy shit, something I actually agree with you on.

Yeah, the Outlander isn't above Vaylin in any capacity. Hell, I don't think the Outlander is even above Arcann by any significant margin.

Vaylin is a discussion I'm willing to have, but Arcann and Senya are instantly sent flying by Vaylin's attack and the Outlander solos the task after that point.

Sub-Tano.

****tard

Originally posted by Sinious
Vaylin is a discussion I'm willing to have, but Arcann and Senya are instantly sent flying by Vaylin's attack and the Outlander solos the task after that point.

Look at the scene frame-by-frame. Valkorion shields the Outlander from the blast that floors Arcann and Senya.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Look at the scene frame-by-frame. Valkorion shields the Outlander from the blast that floors Arcann and Senya.
From the initial blast, yes; though the Outlander still presses on even after Vaylin pours more and more power into the attack.

Not to mention the fact that Vaylin had the help of 3 Horizon Guards and 5 Skytroopers.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Not to mention the fact that Vaylin had the help of 3 Horizon Guards and 5 Skytroopers.

Can't forget their valuable contribution.

They were a distraction, just like Arcann and Senya were.

Powerful enough t struggle with a single stalagmite

Yoda struggled with some shit machinery in AotC, lel.

Originally posted by carthage
Powerful enough t struggle with a single stalagmite
It's a stalactite dipshit! Learn the ground realities of cave geology!

He misspelled a two letter word too Originally posted by carthage
Powerful enough t struggle with a single stalagmite Already addressed this, but HoT just takes his time with it. He makes no facial impressions that suggest this. He is probably enjoying killing the Emperor, especially since this is dark side ending.

Are we to scale the entire PT from Yoda's TK feat in AOTC? Since Yoda actually appears to have a hard time with it, and Dooku was running away because of this, which would make it retarded for Yoda to take his time, unlike the Hero?

Great thread! If I think of or remember anything else for the Hotlander, I'll let you know

Act I HoT > Bengel Morr > Orgus Din > Cavern

I think somethings that should be noted for the outlander:

"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

^^^^ Outlander should be getting some confrontation based growth via breaking free of the outlander's control.

2. Valk indicates Vaylin was weakened when the outlander walked through her attack:
"even now, she is a threat"

3. People have been throwing around the idea that the Outlander was valk amped vs Vaylin but this ould suggest otherwise:
https://youtu.be/iM5S5730f3I?t=1m24s

A fair chunk of this is complete nonsense, but I don't really care enough to address it. On-topic, it's hard to say exactly how strong the Outlander is, because as a player character there's very little specific canonically-backed information on him. Sure we can say that as the Jedi's battle master, he's likely a high level master of multiple lightsaber forms, but like in the case of Tenebrous, that doesn't clue us in at all on his approach to combat.

Well, holistically speaking the story makes it seem like he should be ahead of Revan. Is he really, though? Probably not. Working from his feats alone, I wouldn't put him any higher than Mace level.

Nice, thread you have put my ranking of him higher, maybe Kotor level Revan.
Kotor Revan would be around Vitiate's level 900 years ago, just after he preformed the Ritual of Nathema(absorbing 8000 sith lords(weakend) and the entire planet of life to the subatomic level as it stripped the planet of the force, which is >>>anything HoT scales to.

kotor revan being outlander level is holistically nonsensical

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
kotor revan being outlander level is holistically nonsensical

Nah it's not, when he is superior to the likes of ajunta pall/karness muur.
His clearing of korriban and the starforge, are feats the outlander hasn't shown.

The outlander before facing Arcann at the end of Kotfe, was overwhelmed by quite a few droids, And needed help. Revan on the otherhand had no issue slaughtering hundreds mixed with dark jedi.

Nice thread, well written, but the liles of Krayt, Kun, Dooku and Vader would destroy the Outlander, lmao.

Well, no shit. You can scale them to galaxy-level Kenobi. You can't for the Outlander.

Hard to compare a galaxy-tearing powerhouse to a rock-throwing one, you know?

Originally posted by MythLord
Sub-Tano. Round about yeah.

Originally posted by Sinious
****tard #triggeredbythetruth

That how you felt about the UK election result?

On-topic, I still doubt he's beyond Vader level myself. I just don't see Arcann being Vader-level to begin with.

Not sure how high I have him, but definitely above Dooku.

Ya know it occurs to me, since people seem to use scripted game mechanics that always happens. Does this mean that Ben and Vader in Legends are legit building busters? Since ya know...they can destroy buildings in Empire At War using The Force.

Oh and since were going that route, Vader can also lift up and crush a vehicle that is bigger than an AT-AT with The Force in the MPTL-2a which is 27 meters in length while still batting away blaster fire.

I mean, since ya know people seem to like using this sort of stuff, cause they happen each time.

Busting a buildings isn't all that impressive, Lal.

Revan on a good day ( if the circumstances were right mind you ) could bust a building.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Busting a buildings isn't all that impressive, Lal.

Not my point.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Revan on a good day ( if the circumstances were right mind you ) could bust a building.
he might be able to

My mistake.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Revan on a good day ( if the circumstances were right mind you ) could bust a building.

The building in question we're supposedly skyscraper sized.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Not my point.

What was your point, then?

People don't use those scripted examples, because they most likely didn't know it existed, it isn't limited to ToR, or anything, if that is what you're implying.

I've certainly used it during my Kyle Katarn hyping days.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
The building in question we're supposedly skyscraper sized.

Yep.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What was your point, then?

People don't use those scripted examples, because they most likely didn't know it existed, it isn't limited to ToR, or anything, if that is what you're implying.

I've certainly used it during my Kyle Katarn hyping days.

Well then if people didn't know, then that's all I need. I was figuring people were just not using them, but they were ok with using TOR ones.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That how you felt about the UK election result? funny. uhuh

But no it was an early birthday present.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
People don't use those scripted examples, because they are not canon.

@Zenwolf

I only used cutscenes.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The outlander before facing Arcann at the end of Kotfe, was overwhelmed by quite a few droids, And needed help. Revan on the otherhand had no issue slaughtering hundreds mixed with dark jedi. holy ****

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I think somethings that should be noted for the outlander:

"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

^^^^ Outlander should be getting some confrontation based growth via breaking free of the outlander's control.

2. Valk indicates Vaylin was weakened when the outlander walked through her attack:
"even now, she is a threat"

3. People have been throwing around the idea that the Outlander was valk amped vs Vaylin but this ould suggest otherwise:
https://youtu.be/iM5S5730f3I?t=1m24s 1) What?

2) That could mean a lot of things. Vaylin was put on her knee. She lost the fight. Valkorion pointed out that they didn't defeat her yet. I'm pretty sure the scene is not trying to establish that Vaylin's final force attack is weaker than her normal self. More likely, she is finally using her full power.

3)

So double standards there Ben/Sin? Because according to the logic I'm not seeing what's different between what characters do in TOR while in game fighting compared to EAW, cause they all do the same no matter what.

1) Don't ever place my name next to that filth's.

2) I'm still waiting for you to show me where I used game mechanics.

Originally posted by Sinious
1) Don't ever place my name next to that filth's.

2) I'm still waiting for you to show me where I used game mechanics.

It's not directed at you, it's more a general comment cause I see others using Revan's or someone else's in-game fighting mechanics in TOR to prop up their abilities. There's also JK: JO and JA.

I mean I have used JO for the Shadow Troopers and their abilities, so I won't deny I've used the logic too.

But I mean when it's brought up that character X can do all these things in TOR due to scripted game mechanics....but then they don't use that logic for other games...well you see the problem.

Good point. I guess it's also safe to say that Starkiller was simultaneously ragdolling several waves of attacking tie fighters as he tore the Star Destroyer from the sky, since you were forced to do so in the game.

Nah. Applying equal standards is laem.

Anybody who have been following the story of KoTET closely will come to understand that Tenebrae was preparing the Outlander to house his essence for long-term basis (enhancing his strength and powers over time). This implies that by the time the Outlander was ready to be taken over completely, he would be stronger than everybody else (at present and earlier). Tenebrae even remarked as much.

After consuming Ziost, Tenebrae had become too powerful for inferior beings to house his vessel for long-term safely because they would fail under stresses of his power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Anybody who have been following the story of KoTET closely

That was your first mistake.

Looking back at this, I think Outlander vs Vaylin is probably a 50/50 fight, and both are on Kun/Krayt/Revan/Caedus level (loosely speaking, as a lot people place these characters differently). Also, what Legend said above does suggest that the Outlander must have a very similar amount of potential to Vaylin, if not greater, since Valkorion chooses him before all else to be his ultimate vessel.

The likes of Kun and Krayt would shit on the Outlander and Vaylin

Originally posted by Sinious
Looking back at this, I think Outlander vs Vaylin is probably a 50/50 fight, and both are on Kun/Krayt/Revan/Caedus level (loosely speaking, as a lot people place these characters differently). Also, what Legend said above does suggest that the Outlander must have a very similar amount of potential to Vaylin, if not greater, since Valkorion chooses him before all else to be his ultimate vessel.
What LeGenD said above isn't even true. Vitishit's immortality requires him feeding on planets every once in a while, which is why he ate Ziost. He made the Outlander more powerful because he couldn't destroy their mind on his own and planned on using the "spirits" of his children to do it. He had them accomplish remarkable things presumably to explain how a random person suddenly became the Immortal Emperor. Also for the shits and giggles because he wanted to sate his "curiosity." Ziost wasn't some life altering event for Valkorion.

Trash tier

Originally posted by Azronger
The likes of Kun and Krayt would shit on the Outlander and Vaylin

and you are? Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What LeGenD said above isn't even true. Vitishit's immortality requires him feeding on planets every once in a while, which is why he ate Ziost. He made the Outlander more powerful because he couldn't destroy their mind on his own and planned on using the "spirits" of his children to do it. He had them accomplish remarkable things presumably to explain how a random person suddenly became the Immortal Emperor. Also for the shits and giggles because he wanted to sate his "curiosity." Ziost wasn't some life altering event for Valkorion. I get your point. That's still impressive for Outlander, though.

I would place them just below, Revan/caedus/Exar's Tier tbh.
The outlander doesn't really have any decent offensive/defensive feats he can scale off.
Most of it is unquantifiable/with assumption.
The outlander got overwhelmed by droids in chapter 11 of KOTFE. Which quite frankly doesn't put Him at Kotor Revan level, at that time. I'm not sure how much the growth was in between then, and the end of KOTET.

For one, a ton, but even if it wasn't, that's some shitty logic anyway. No one can fight forever.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
For one, a ton, but even if it wasn't, that's some shitty logic anyway. No one can fight forever.
But the difference was, Revan moved through the Droids/Dark jedi to his objective. The outlander got trapped. And there wasn't a forever amount of Droids. At the very least there would a comparable amount droids, though doubtful, as the star forge was continuously creating them. Plus the dark Jedi.

Az tier logic

Originally posted by Haschwalth
But the difference was, Revan moved through the Droids/Dark jedi to his objective. The outlander got trapped. And there wasn't a forever amount of Droids. At the very least there would a comparable amount droids, though doubtful, as the star forge was continuously creating them. Plus the dark Jedi.
Yeah, the giant droid factory on the planet wouldn't continuously make droids even though that's exactly what we're told, but regardless, this was a battle. The Outlander isn't trying to cut through a distracted army to Malak, and army facing overwhelming odds by the Republic I might add. They aren't comparable situations. Either way, the Outlander doesn't get their boost until Chapter 12.

And I'm inclined to put the Outlander above Vaylin. She's flanked by the most powerful Force Users in her Empire and a squad of Skytroopers and still loses, even though she far outclasses anyone there not named the Outlander.

Above Revan.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Above Revan.
In his wet dreams.

DB? Is that you?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
DB? Is that you?
DBS? that's a entertaining series.

The argument that the Outlander is above Revan just isn't there.

Originally posted by Sinious
Az tier logic

Yeah I generally dislike that use of argument. I went that route because i'm bored, and find the idea of the Outlander being on Revans level funny.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The argument that the Outlander is above Revan just isn't there.

Only the Outlander, Vitiate's greatest enemy, warranted his full attention br0.

Smuggler > Revan - hinted in SoR concept art, revealed in KOTET.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And I'm inclined to put the Outlander above Vaylin. She's flanked by the most powerful Force Users in her Empire and a squad of Skytroopers and still loses, even though she far outclasses anyone there not named the Outlander.



He shouldn't be too far, if even, from Revan anyway. Probably, until the end of the storyline it's probably he's going to surpass him. He's the choosen one lite after all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The argument that the Outlander is above Revan just isn't there. Outlander am god now. Accept it, fam.

Depends on how you see Outlander+Senya+Arcann vs Vaylin+ an Army

Vaylin, unlike Revan, is showcased both directly and holistically to be a serious threat to Valk. She's the more powerful of the two.

If you see Outlander helping defeat Vaylin+her army and then walking through and killing Vaylin a result of superiority, then there's little doubt Outlander wields more power than Revan does.

Using Valk dominating the outlander doesn't work as he needed Vaylin's power to pull this off per his own admission.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Depends on how you see Outlander+Senya+Arcann vs Vaylin+ an Army

Vaylin, unlike Revan, is showcased both directly and holistically to be a serious threat to Valk. She's the more powerful of the two.

If you see Outlander helping defeat Vaylin+her army and then walking through and killing Vaylin a result of superiority, then there's little doubt Outlander wields more power than Revan does.

Using Valk dominating the outlander doesn't work as he needed Vaylin's power to pull this off per his own admission.

Revan as of his MW and Darth incarnate can argued to be above some ancient sith lords, that Vitiate deemed a threat. Being a threat is not that impressive.

Also, Revan was never around to be a threat to Valkorian, because he was dead.
Revan was a major threat to Vitiate when they fought.
Revan was a threat to SWTOR Vitiate, in SOR as it was described as a struggle between the two.

She has no feats, really to back that up, and not enough information only wonky unstable scaling. On the basis of her being a threat to Valk, who at the time was Weakened in his non corporal form.

I like how nothing said above is true.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how nothing said above is true.
In your opinion It may be.

Ant blaspheming against the Outlander. Despicable.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ant blaspheming against the Outlander. Despicable.
Well it's not considering Revan is stated to be the greatest of the two.
You infidel must be purged and shown the light of our savior, the Revanchist.

Revan isn't stated to be greater than KOTET Outlander.

That quote has nothing to do with power or skill.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
That quote has nothing to do with power or skill.
We weren't arguing about that. , i'm not referring to ants comment on strength fyi.

You aren't arguing shit. You're just rambling your opinions and passing them off as fact.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ant blaspheming against the Outlander. Despicable.
Not my fault Revan would bend over and daddy-spank the Outlander in a fight.

That would require Revan being able to defeat anyone. I mean, logically speaking, the Outlander could just wait Revan out even if he were somehow more powerful.

You mean other than the Echani, the Star Forge, Malak, Nyriss, and the remainder of the Outlander's team.

The Outlander is a better duelist and the power gap, if there's still one, shouldn't be big anyway.

Originally posted by Geistalt
You mean other than the Echani, the Star Forge, Malak, Nyriss, and the remainder of the Outlander's team.
When I say defeat, I mean kill. And I usually don't mean mooks.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
The Outlander is a better duelist and the power gap, if there's still one, shouldn't be big anyway.
The argument for the outlander being a better duelist is weaker than the one for him being more powerful tbh.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Revan as of his MW and Darth incarnate can argued to be above some ancient sith lords, that Vitiate deemed a threat. Being a threat is not that impressive.

That's vitiate, not valk btw. Regardless, if Revan was a threat to Vitiate, it wasn't due to how powerful he was. The Revan novel shows us that in a fight, Revan is nothing more than one-shottable fodder to Vitiate:

In fact, to Revan, Vitiate was undefeatable, even with the aid of his allies:

Revan isn't sh!t to Vitiate in terms of power, it seems.
On the other hand, Valkorian specifically feared Vaylin due to her potential to become powerful enough to directly challenge him. So much so that Valkorian sent her to psycho-bootcampto give her conditioning that would allow Valkorian to subdue his daughter regardless of how powerful he was:

To recap: Revan, one-shottable fodder. Vaylin, someone whose power scared Valkorian. I think it's self-evident whose superior.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Also, Revan was never around to be a threat to Valkorian, because he was dead.

Which means that at best, Revan being as powerful as Vaylin is an unsubstantiated assertion. We do however have ways to compare Revan and Valkorian. In the Revan novel, in a direct fight, we see a pre-prime valk one-shot a pre-prime Revan. Then there's SOR which had a clear message for us: Revan is Valk's b!tch
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Revan was a major threat to Vitiate when they fought.





Not by virtue of his power unfortunately, hence why he was one-shotted.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Revan was a threat to SWTOR Vitiate, in SOR as it was described as a struggle between the two.




Revan never actually fought Vitiate in direct combat. In fact, it's repeatedly drilled into our heads throughout SOR that Revan can't hope to stand up to the emperor in a fight with Vitiate in his physical form.
Struggle doesn't at all indicate a close fight. Anakin vs Cin Drallig was a struggle, yeah, doesn't change that Anakin stomped him.
That "struggle" didn't involve Valkorian.

Revan has nothing to show he's anything more than sh!te to Vitiate, let alone Valkorian. Any argument trying to draw a favorable comparison for Revan in regards to how his power compares to Vakorian is nonsense I'm afraid.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
She has no feats

She does have feats actually. In fact, she has feats that outstrip anything Revan has achieved such as:

Destroying a Sanitarium from her ship.
Tearing apart numerous ships while dismantling the force users who boarded them.
Telekinetically rofl stomping Arcann and Senya while greatly slowing the Outlander with a wave of power. Incredibly impressive when you realize that a far less powerful trio in Arcann, KOTFE Outlander, and Lana were capable of lifting the Gravestone.


Vaylin's feats are better, yea. That she favorably compares with someone who's repeatedly made Revan his b!tch only confirms the obvious.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
and not enough information only wonky unstable scaling. On the basis of her being a threat to Valk, who at the time was Weakened in his non corporal form.
You seem to be forgetting that was a chained Vaylin. If you want see how big the difference between a chained an unchained Vaylin is, you need only compare their performances vs Arcann.

There's nothing wonky here. A weakened Valkorian failed to dominate a pre-prime Vaylin, hence I'd argue that Valkorian at his peak couldn't dominate Vaylin at her peak. An inference that aligns with how she's holistically portrayed.

That's more I can say for Revan who has been showe dboth in direct combat and holistically to be Valk's b!tch.

Most of those arguments don't even warrant a response, Hasch.

Kbro one shotted the fodder.

Pretty sure even PTforthewin could pick apart the flaws in that argument, TW.

Hu3

You're being too generous now, I'm afraid.

Ant is just salty Kbro roasted Revan, lel.

He used a quote from Scourge's perspective in a tertiary source and then wrote it off as from an objective, omniscient narrator. mmm

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He used a quote from Scourge's perspective in a tertiary source and then wrote it off as from an objective, omniscient narrator. mmm
I don't think I ever said anything about that being an objective or out of universe statement though

I'll give you benefit of the doubt here, though from the excerpt I quoted, there's nothing that indicates this is solely from Scourge's perspective.

You passed it off as a legitimate argument. So either you openly knew the flawed reasoning and hoped he wouldn't recognize it, or were ignorant enough to not. I'm not sure which is worse, but both are quite bad.

Does anyone have the quote that places Act II HoT over Foundry Revan?

None exists. Revan conceded inferiority to Act II HoT when he got out of prison, not during the Foundry. It's stated Revan is the most powerful Jedi ever as of the Foundry.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You passed it off as a legitimate argument. So either you openly knew the flawed reasoning and hoped he wouldn't recognize it, or were ignorant enough to not. I'm not sure which is worse, but both are quite bad.
Are you trying to assert that an argument is automatically illegitimate if it's based on what a character believes?

Anyway, since you argue the quote was exclusively from Scourge's perspective despite it describing Revan's desires, mind posting the whole thing?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None exists. Revan conceded inferiority to Act II HoT when he got out of prison, not during the Foundry. It's stated Revan is the most powerful Jedi ever as of the Foundry.

that quote is complete BS, of course.

"Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan."

In other words:

"Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan, recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable."

Thus, it is of Scourge's own "recognition" (or opinion) that the Emperor is undefeatable.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan."

In other words:

"Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan, recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable."

Thus, it is of Scourge's own "recognition" (or opinion) that the Emperor is undefeatable.
Recognition = opinion?

I say nein:




That he recognizes something in a quote that is outlining what multiple characters are thinking isn't sufficient to show that this is specifically from Scourge's perspective. That multiple characters have their reasoning described indicates this is objective narration. And when objective narration notes something to be a recognition, that's the equivalent of noting such a claim as fact.

Furthermore, you've failed to explain why this being Scourge's opinion renders my argument illegitimate when Scourge has no reason to be biased here.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
None exists. Revan conceded inferiority to Act II HoT when he got out of prison, not during the Foundry. It's stated Revan is the most powerful Jedi ever as of the Foundry. I'd like to see those quotes, anyways. And, regardless, it should provide a gauge to help judge the Flashpoint bosses in terms of the SWTOR protagonists (in a way other than "it takes 4 to safely kill one of them".

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan."

In other words:

"Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan, recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable."

Thus, it is of Scourge's own "recognition" (or opinion) that the Emperor is undefeatable.

Scourge is merely recognizing an universal truth estabilished by the narrator - that the Emperor is undefeatable.

Kbro is correct.

Kbro handing Ant L's like

http://i.imgur.com/iFYeSMi.gif

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Scourge is merely recognizing an universal truth estabilished by the narrator - that the Emperor is undefeatable.

Kbro is correct.
https://media.giphy.com/media/glmRyiSI3v5E4/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That he recognizes something in a quote that is outlining what multiple characters are thinking isn't sufficient to show that this is specifically from Scourge's perspective. That multiple characters have their reasoning described indicates this is objective narration. And when objective narration notes something to be a recognition, that's the equivalent of noting such a claim as fact.

The specific quote is what Scourge is thinking of, not what multiple characters are.

It doesn't even imply otherwise. It's so laughably direct.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
snip

That the Emperor is undefeatable (in that particular circunstance) is the "opinion" of the narrator not Scourge's. Scourge simply recognizes what the narrator establishes. I literally can't be more clear than this.

Woke up, to find this from Kbro.
Anyway scourge made that assertion he was undefeatable after Revan was taken down by Vitiate's lightning.
A Weakened Revan if I may add.

I might respond to Kbro, ant. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I still don't get why Suirk threw her lightsaber to stop the lighting, when throwing it to kill Vitiate would have also stopped the lighting.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I still don't understand why Suirk threw her lightsaber to stop the lighting, when throwing it to kill Vitiate would have also stopped the lighting.
Plot, Vitiate had to survive.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Plot, Vitiate had to survive.

I guess, dunno, felt like it could have been done better.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I guess, dunno, felt like it could have been done better.
Many things could of been done better, I guess.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Anyway scourge made that assertion he was undefeatable after Revan was taken down by Vitiate's lightning.

It's not Scourge that makes the assertion. He recognizes the Emperor is undefeatable and he only recognizes it because it's immediately established as a universal truth by the narrator.

Revan being taken down is just a consequence of the Emperor being undefeatable, not the cause of it.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
It's not Scourge that makes the assertion. He recognizes the Emperor is undefeatable and he only recognizes it because it's immediately established as a universal truth by the narrator.

Revan being taken down is just a consequence of the Emperor being undefeatable, not the cause of it.

Lol, what. He perfectly was defeatable, otherwise Scourge wouldn't of had visions of Revan defeating Vitiate.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
That the Emperor is undefeatable (in that particular circunstance) is the "opinion" of the narrator not Scourge's. Scourge simply recognizes what the narrator establishes. I literally can't be more clear than this.
Except we know he's not undefeatable because Scourge has visions showing he could be defeated. mmm

The term "recognizes," therefore, must be referencing to the vision of "clarity" that Scourge has.

Seems like your interpretation is wrong and mine is right - shocker.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Lol, what. He perfectly was defeatable

No, he wasn't. Not for the real encounter at last.



Since when a vision that didn't materialize holds more weight than an universal fact established by the author for that specific encounter?

In resume:

Scourge has visions where victory is a possibility

Team goes after Vitiate

Team gets stomped

Scourge recognizes (what the author esblishes) the Emperor is undefeatable

Obviously, the last event supercedes the first.

Scourge has visions of the team beating Vitiate and Vitiate beating the team. He has a vision of clarity, at the end, of Vitiate defeating them. "Recognizing the Emperor is undefeatable," because the vision showed the team would lose, he decides to betray the team. However, that doesn't mean this isn't another situation like Anakin in Episode III, where Anakin has a vision of the future and then makes that vision become true. Here, "the vision of clarity" Scourge has is actually the future he's about to do. If that's the case, which likely it is given how "the future is always in motion," then Scourge's own opinion is also irrelevant, since he misread the entire situation due to his cowardice.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except we know he's not undefeatable because Scourge has visions showing he could be defeated. mmm

A vision that didn't materialize.



No. He recognizes what he recognizes - that the Emperor is undefeatable. If he's recognizing it in reference to his visions, it's irrelevant. It's not Scourge that gives Vitiate the quality of being "undefeatable" it's the narrator. He recognizes what the narrator establishes. How he recognizes that is irrelevant.



Thanks for the fodder tier entertainment you're providing me, kiddo.

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
A vision that didn't materialize.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have happened.

If he was undefeatable, there would be no situation that he could be defeated.

The fact he could be defeated therefore means he is not undefeatable.



The term "recognize" doesn't mean that the recognition is fact.

Scourge can recognize that the Emperor is undefeatable - that doesn't mean such recognition is absolute, considering the source of the recognition.



Yawn. Likewise.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Here, "the vision of clarity" Scourge has is actually the future he's about to do. If that's the case, which likely it is given how "the future is always in motion," then Scourge's own opinion is also irrelevant, since he misread the entire situation due to his cowardice.

Exactly, except that Vitiate being undefeatable is not his opinion - it's a fact. If Vitiate is undefeatable due to his own cowardice or something else, it's irrelevant.

It's not fact, since we know Vitiate can defeated. Regurgitating the point doesn't change that.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I still don't get why Suirk threw her lightsaber to stop the lighting, when throwing it to kill Vitiate would have also stopped the lighting.
IIRC, vitiate was about to kill revan via saber

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's not fact, since we know Vitiate can defeated. Regurgitating the point doesn't change that.
Context cleans this up nicely, yea.

Given that the quote was about the capability of the strike team to beat vitiate, the implication is that Vitiate as of this time is undefeatable for the strike team.

1.) The text does not convey in absolute that the narrator states Vitiate is undefeatable.

There is an alternate interpretation that suggests Scourge and Scourge alone believes he is undefeatable.

2.) The novel explicitly shows Vitiate is, indeed, defeatable, not undefeatable.

Therefore, we can conclude that the narrator is not the one labeling Vitiate as defeatable.

In the 0.5% chance the narrator is making the assessment, it doesn't overrule the primary source in such a direct contradiction - that's absurd.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't mean they couldn't have happened.

If he was undefeatable, there would be no situation that he could be defeated.

The fact he could be defeated therefore means he is not undefeatable.

He's for the trio. The universe just establishes it.



Scourge recognizes what's established by the universe. He's not recognizing his own opinion. He may recognize the fact throught his opinions/visions/whatever - it's irrelevant. The fact is that Vitiate is undefeatable is a universal truth and he recognized it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1.) The text does not convey in absolute that the narrator states Vitiate is undefeatable.

There is an alternate interpretation that suggests Scourge and Scourge alone believes he is undefeatable.

2.) The novel explicitly shows Vitiate is, indeed, defeatable, not undefeatable.

Therefore, we can conclude that the narrator is not the one labeling Vitiate as defeatable.

In the 0.5% chance the narrator is making the assessment, it doesn't overrule the primary source in such a direct contradiction - that's absurd.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
1.) The text does not convey in absolute that the narrator states Vitiate is undefeatable.

There is an alternate interpretation that suggests Scourge and Scourge alone believes he is undefeatable.

Scourge believes shit! He recognizes a quality that was given by the narrator, thus sharing omniscience with the narrator regarding Vitiate's status in relation to the trio - that is being undefeatable.



Except that, for the trio, he's undefeatable.



He is. Not only that, he's also justifying Scourge betrayal based on the universal truth he just established and Scourge recognized.



Why? Scourge had visions of possibility of victory. The narrator then clarifies - during the actual encounter - that the trio never had a chance (and Scourge recognizes that). There's no contradiction fam.

I cannot fathom how you cannot grasp that the strike team winning in some of Scourge's visions and the Emperor being objectively undefeatable are mutually exclusive.

Maybe you just say it to yourself a few times:

They are mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive.

@Kbro
1.That's vitiate, not valk btw. Regardless, if Revan was a threat to Vitiate, it wasn't due to how powerful he was. The Revan novel shows us that in a fight, Revan is nothing
more than one-shottable fodder to Vitiate:


I know he is not valkorian, but thats the not the point im getting at. Vitiate found ancient sith lords a threat to his power. Being a threat ain't impressive,
Vitiate is scared of death. He is going to find anyone with considerable power a threat. Valkorian was in a vulnrable as heck position/while weakened in the outlanders body,
Valkorian would of been terrified of someone more powerful than the outlander. Revan was a threat in power to Vitiate though, Otherwise a repeat of Nyriss/meetra would of
occured. Not mentioning Revan wasn't in the greatest state at the time. Scourge wouldn't have seen futures of Revan coming ontop, he wouldn't of been describe to have nearly
assassinated Vitiate, Vitiate would of not gotten serious or pissed.

It struck the Emperor in its chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith's emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a
primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan's spine..."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

For the first time ever Vitiate was pissed(enraged) He did not hold back, and conjured his Force lightning storm(a charged version of force lightning).
He released his full power on a Droid, that futher validates vitiates state. Tanking that charged, force lightning ain't the same as taking normal lightning.
It's pretty much all or nothing and Revan barely scrapped through. Revan had next to no issue reflecting his bolts. Vitiate could not Telepathically dominate Revan,
nor could he Telekentically Dominate this Revan. this weakened Revan's closer in parity to Vitiate than Meetra was to Nyriss. The notion of Revan being fodder to Vitiate is
ludicrous.


2.In fact, to Revan, Vitiate was undefeatable, even with the aid of his allies:

Cute, and what did they actually do to help in the fight?
That's right nothing.


3.Revan isn't sh!t to Vitiate in terms of power, it seems. sad
On the other hand, Valkorian specifically feared Vaylin due to her potential to become powerful enough to directly challenge him. So much so that Valkorian sent her to
psycho-bootcampto give her conditioning that would allow Valkorian to subdue his daughter regardless of how powerful he was:

False.
Directly challenge him in what way? Power, political rivalry, Militarly? You also have to take in events, like Valkorian becoming a spirit which drastical decreases his power.
We cannot know the circumstances under which Vaylin would try to face Valkorian. Revan started a 300 year mental war with Vitiate/dread guards. And influenced Vitiate. bastila
broke to Malak in mere months. Revan is not as far as you would believe

4.to recap: Revan, one-shottable fodder. Vaylin, someone whose power scared Valkorian. I think it's self-evident whose superior.

Yeah one shottable fodder who he failed to mentally break after 300 years with help. Nearly assassinated him, would of rivaled him in fair conditions. He is such fodder that
Vitiate spent all that time trying to turn him to the darkside/drain, to serve him instead of just killing him. If she was a geniune threat Valkorian would of just killed her
rofl, or have a repeat of Revan in draining her. Nah he likes to use, and manipulate people.



5.Which means that at best, Revan being as powerful as Vaylin is an unsubstantiated assertion. We do however have ways to compare Revan and Valkorian. In the Revan novel, in a
direct fight, we see a pre-prime valk one-shot a pre-prime Revan. Then there's SOR which had a clear message for us: Revan is Valk's b!tch

Swap vaylin and Revan around thanks. SOR Message was, arrogant people making assumptions not just Revan fyi. Though I agree the untrue Revan could not destroy Vitiate, but he
wouldn't be bodied as fast as people believe, if he merged with light Revan the fight would be closer, If you want to go the cosmic force argument,people love to use with plageuis
he was affecting the structure(tapestry) of the force within all Jedi/sith, to the point where the Force reacted and randomly gave the hero's a vision of Revan/Rishi Now him merged.
Vaylin has no combat, or any releated feats to even match Novel Vitiate. Nor has she impacted the force in ways Revan has.


6.Not by virtue of his power unfortunately, hence why he was one-shotted.

Cute he was never one shotted in SOR.
The writers described it as.

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this
struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

―Michael Backus (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Writer)

Not onesided one shot but actual Struggle between the two.
Doesn't need to have valkorian when she hasn't shown to beable to contend with SWTOR Vitiate let alone novel.


7.She does have feats actually. In fact, she has feats that outstrip anything Revan has achieved such as:

Destroying a Sanitarium from her ship.
Tearing apart numerous ships while dismantling the force users who boarded them.
Telekinetically rofl stomping Arcann and Senya while greatly slowing the Outlander with a wave of power. Incredibly impressive when you realize that a far less powerful trio in Arcann, KOTFE Outlander, and Lana were capable of lifting the Gravestone.


Cute Tulak hords feat of pulling a ship with TK is far superior, as she set off chain reactions. And Revan would ragdoll him.
Cute, Revan absorbed energies from a blast that would of killed all life in 1km radius.(Not tank, absorb far superior to tanking)
Arcann what? you mean senya. And like I said Tulak hord has done something far superior. Even meetra has pulled a ship from orbeit, sure it would of been smaller. but its more
impressive considering the distance. And she is fodder to Revan, Nihilus could be aruged as well.
Revan is superior to the likes of thon who sealed planet wide DS energies, into a lake. From a botched Ritual of ambria which devistated it's surface.Which was regarded by the JEdi
as the worse DS Ritual/Event seen, which includes naga sadows Solar flares. which shits on vaylin.
MW Revan manipulated the darkside energies of malachor,turning thousands/hundreds of Jedi to the darkside.
A Revan who was Weakend from Tanking several extremely powerful energies(TOS),and fightning the strike team of all the heros who needed light Revans help. Still managed to
Stasis, Marr/Satele/Lana at the same time and hold them still and would of drained them to death. The only Reason the Hero didn't follow was Light Revan protected him, from being
dominated. Controlled Raw power is superior to uncontrolled.


7.5.Vaylin's feats are better, yea. That she favorably compares with someone who's repeatedly made Revan his b!tch only confirms the obvious.

Yeah no and no she does not.


8.You seem to be forgetting that was a chained Vaylin. If you want see how big the difference between a chained an unchained Vaylin is, you need only compare their performances vs Arcann.

There's nothing wonky here. A weakened Valkorian failed to dominate a pre-prime Vaylin, hence I'd argue that Valkorian at his peak couldn't dominate Vaylin at her peak. An inference that aligns with how she's holistically portrayed.

That's more I can say for Revan who has been showe dboth in direct combat and holistically to be Valk's b!tch.


That same chained threat was bested by Senya rofl.
Cute he barely managed to send Arcann off the ledge as well.
That argument won't get anywhere. No feats only acouple of words. Nothing concrete.


Your only argument is that she is a threat to Valkorian. With no sufficent Feats/accolades, or scaling. And your making it seem like she has mastered her powers.
Reached her fullest potential. She is a threat to a weakend/spirit Valkorian who could barely, defeat arcann, even though he casual did so at the start of Kotfe and
the End of KOTET.

The narrator is basically telling that those visions from their victory never had a chance to materialize, as simple as that. There's nothing that suggest, even in the slightest, that the quality of undefeatable is given by Scourge.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
@Kbro
1.That's vitiate, not valk btw. Regardless, if Revan was a threat to Vitiate, it wasn't due to how powerful he was. The Revan novel shows us that in a fight, Revan is nothing
more than one-shottable fodder to Vitiate:


I know he is not valkorian, but thats the not the point im getting at. Vitiate found ancient sith lords a threat to his power. Being a threat ain't impressive,
Vitiate is scared of death. He is going to find anyone with considerable power a threat. Valkorian was in a vulnrable as heck position/while weakened in the outlanders body,
Valkorian would of been terrified of someone more powerful than the outlander. Revan was a threat in power to Vitiate though, Otherwise a repeat of Nyriss/meetra would of
occured. Not mentioning Revan wasn't in the greatest state at the time. Scourge wouldn't have seen futures of Revan coming ontop, he wouldn't of been describe to have nearly
assassinated Vitiate, Vitiate would of not gotten serious or pissed.

It struck the Emperor in its chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith's emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a
primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan's spine..."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

For the first time ever Vitiate was pissed(enraged) He did not hold back, and conjured his Force lightning storm(a charged version of force lightning).
He released his full power on a Droid, that futher validates vitiates state. Tanking that charged, force lightning ain't the same as taking normal lightning.
It's pretty much all or nothing and Revan barely scrapped through. Revan had next to no issue reflecting his bolts. Vitiate could not Telepathically dominate Revan,
nor could he Telekentically Dominate this Revan. this weakened Revan's closer in parity to Vitiate than Meetra was to Nyriss. The notion of Revan being fodder to Vitiate is
ludicrous.


2.In fact, to Revan, Vitiate was undefeatable, even with the aid of his allies:

Cute, and what did they actually do to help in the fight?
That's right nothing.


3.Revan isn't sh!t to Vitiate in terms of power, it seems. sad
On the other hand, Valkorian specifically feared Vaylin due to her potential to become powerful enough to directly challenge him. So much so that Valkorian sent her to
psycho-bootcampto give her conditioning that would allow Valkorian to subdue his daughter regardless of how powerful he was:

False.
Directly challenge him in what way? Power, political rivalry, Militarly? You also have to take in events, like Valkorian becoming a spirit which drastical decreases his power.
We cannot know the circumstances under which Vaylin would try to face Valkorian. Revan started a 300 year mental war with Vitiate/dread guards. And influenced Vitiate. bastila
broke to Malak in mere months. Revan is not as far as you would believe

4.to recap: Revan, one-shottable fodder. Vaylin, someone whose power scared Valkorian. I think it's self-evident whose superior.

Yeah one shottable fodder who he failed to mentally break after 300 years with help. Nearly assassinated him, would of rivaled him in fair conditions. He is such fodder that
Vitiate spent all that time trying to turn him to the darkside/drain, to serve him instead of just killing him. If she was a geniune threat Valkorian would of just killed her
rofl, or have a repeat of Revan in draining her. Nah he likes to use, and manipulate people.



5.Which means that at best, Revan being as powerful as Vaylin is an unsubstantiated assertion. We do however have ways to compare Revan and Valkorian. In the Revan novel, in a
direct fight, we see a pre-prime valk one-shot a pre-prime Revan. Then there's SOR which had a clear message for us: Revan is Valk's b!tch

Swap vaylin and Revan around thanks. SOR Message was, arrogant people making assumptions not just Revan fyi. Though I agree the untrue Revan could not destroy Vitiate, but he
wouldn't be bodied as fast as people believe, if he merged with light Revan the fight would be closer, If you want to go the cosmic force argument,people love to use with plageuis
he was affecting the structure(tapestry) of the force within all Jedi/sith, to the point where the Force reacted and randomly gave the hero's a vision of Revan/Rishi Now him merged.
Vaylin has no combat, or any releated feats to even match Novel Vitiate. Nor has she impacted the force in ways Revan has.


6.Not by virtue of his power unfortunately, hence why he was one-shotted.

Cute he was never one shotted in SOR.
The writers described it as.

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this
struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

―Michael Backus (Star Wars: The Old Republic Head Writer)

Not onesided one shot but actual Struggle between the two.
Doesn't need to have valkorian when she hasn't shown to beable to contend with SWTOR Vitiate let alone novel.


7.She does have feats actually. In fact, she has feats that outstrip anything Revan has achieved such as:

Destroying a Sanitarium from her ship.
Tearing apart numerous ships while dismantling the force users who boarded them.
Telekinetically rofl stomping Arcann and Senya while greatly slowing the Outlander with a wave of power. Incredibly impressive when you realize that a far less powerful trio in Arcann, KOTFE Outlander, and Lana were capable of lifting the Gravestone.


Cute Tulak hords feat of pulling a ship with TK is far superior, as she set off chain reactions. And Revan would ragdoll him.
Cute, Revan absorbed energies from a blast that would of killed all life in 1km radius.(Not tank, absorb far superior to tanking)
Arcann what? you mean senya. And like I said Tulak hord has done something far superior. Even meetra has pulled a ship from orbeit, sure it would of been smaller. but its more
impressive considering the distance. And she is fodder to Revan, Nihilus could be aruged as well.
Revan is superior to the likes of thon who sealed planet wide DS energies, into a lake. From a botched Ritual of ambria which devistated it's surface.Which was regarded by the JEdi
as the worse DS Ritual/Event seen, which includes naga sadows Solar flares. which shits on vaylin.
MW Revan manipulated the darkside energies of malachor,turning thousands/hundreds of Jedi to the darkside.
A Revan who was Weakend from Tanking several extremely powerful energies(TOS),and fightning the strike team of all the heros who needed light Revans help. Still managed to
Stasis, Marr/Satele/Lana at the same time and hold them still and would of drained them to death. The only Reason the Hero didn't follow was Light Revan protected him, from being
dominated. Controlled Raw power is superior to uncontrolled.


7.5.Vaylin's feats are better, yea. That she favorably compares with someone who's repeatedly made Revan his b!tch only confirms the obvious.

Yeah no and no she does not.


8.You seem to be forgetting that was a chained Vaylin. If you want see how big the difference between a chained an unchained Vaylin is, you need only compare their performances vs Arcann.

There's nothing wonky here. A weakened Valkorian failed to dominate a pre-prime Vaylin, hence I'd argue that Valkorian at his peak couldn't dominate Vaylin at her peak. An inference that aligns with how she's holistically portrayed.

That's more I can say for Revan who has been showe dboth in direct combat and holistically to be Valk's b!tch.


That same chained threat was bested by Senya rofl.
Cute he barely managed to send Arcann off the ledge as well.
That argument won't get anywhere. No feats only acouple of words. Nothing concrete.


Your only argument is that she is a threat to Valkorian. With no sufficent Feats/accolades, or scaling. And your making it seem like she has mastered her powers.
Reached her fullest potential. She is a threat to a weakend/spirit Valkorian who could barely, defeat arcann, even though he casual did so at the start of Kotfe and
the End of KOTET.

learn to ****ing quote

Originally posted by NewGuy01
learn to ****ing quote
The layout of these forums are a *****.

Compared to... what? Comicvine?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Compared to... what? Comicvine?
CV is better tbh.
Though I use forums better than that for layout.
Its annoying use italics/bold with this because it create a new paragraph and leaves the old one there its annoying asf.

Originally posted by Haschwalth

Its annoying use italics/bold with this because it create a new paragraph and leaves the old one there its annoying asf.

Just use the code. It's not hard. b] starts bold, /b] ends bold, quote] starts quote, /quote] ends quote, and so forth. There's no hassle. Takes maybe a second, champ.

(My post is on the bottom of the last page).

Oh for fcks sake, KMC won't let me edit and fix the errors in my use of italics or the formatting fck ups kmc loves performing

Doesn't matter that much. That's a lot more readable than some of your other posts.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Doesn't matter that much. That's a lot more readable than some of your other posts.
I'm growing in power, yea.
Thanks for noticing

@Ant



Victory visions that are immediately supplanted by a "clearer" one that inevitably means the defeat of the team.



Victory visions? Yeah. Actual victories? No.



Victory visions that are overrided by a clearer one and objectively clarified to not being able to materialize by the narrator.



I said "specific instance" to highlight especifically his confrontation with the trio.



No, they can't, as establishes the source.



The encounter that actually happened was won decisively by the Emperor.



That's actually what the narrator states and what motivates Scourge to betray the team.



That's the word being employed by the narrator, after all.



Visions that didn't materialize and were actually suplanted by one that suggests defeat and specificaly clarified by the narrator as being an impossibility.



I said he recognized something that was established by the narrator to be an universal truth.



Irrelevant.

I just responded to Kbro one post above, who more-or-less said what you said, so refer to that.

If you have any original points not touched in my response, requote them to me.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I just responded to Kbro one post above, who more-or-less said what you said, so refer to that.

If you have any original points not touched in my response, requote them to me.

Nice notice, on that fact Vitiate needed an opportunity, to take Revan down, even after Revan was badly wounded. Indicate's Vitiate couldn't draw on his charged force lightning again. Meaning he had expended a fair bit of his power.