How Powerful is ROTS Kenobi?

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Rockydonovang
Now that DMB has eviscerated me and Kenobi's new megalith feat here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16272051#post16272051, where are we feeling an appropriate place for Kenobi would be?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Relative to characters from other eras?

I still say he's roughly on par with SOR HoT.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Relative to characters from other eras?

I still say he's roughly on par with SOR HoT.
Yea, you can also make args for pt era characters aside though it's fairly straightforward there save for Maul perhaps

Rockydonovang
I'd say Malgus is a good comparison for him personally on the telekinetic front

UCanShootMyNova
RotS Kenobi is about Maul or SoR HoT level as an overall combatant.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'd say Malgus is a good comparison for him personally on the telekinetic front

Ur sailing through forbidden seas with this comparison, kbro. confused

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'd say Malgus is a good comparison for him personally on the telekinetic front

no

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'd say Malgus is a good comparison for him personally on the telekinetic front
Really?

Ben Kenobi found it difficult to suspend a 500 kg object in air and shove it away.

Darth Malgus - decades before his prime (and badly wounded) - was able to hold several tonnes of debris in place over his head and blow it apart afterwards.

Darth Malgus also sent Aryn Leener flying across the hall with a blast of power; Aryn Leener who lifted and chugged 6 Cars of a TRAM like missiles towards her opponents in another fight - in one go.

Not a good comparison, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Relative to characters from other eras?

I still say he's roughly on par with SOR HoT.
In dueling?

I expect HoT to be much stronger at this point.

darthbane77
Act 2 HoT

Rockydonovang
Kenobi's wild space feat is sufficient for comparison with malgus telekentically, and a sabers only match is always going to Kenobi coz he's a tier 8 with much better physical feats anyway

Kurk
Enough to kick your ass IRL. Is that good enough?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
RotS Kenobi is about Maul or SoR HoT level as an overall combatant.
I'll argue Kenobi>Maul

As a swordsmen it's clear cut, pre-prime Kenobi has repeatedly showcased superiority with a blade to maul despite generally unfavorable circumstances. Even in their 1 v 1 on florrum, Kneobi sowed a slight edge via shadow conspiracy despite not even using battle meditation yet(and unlike the portion in the cave there's no contradiction).

As a force user, while Maul has repeatedly tk'd Kenobi, they've all been circumstantial and its spitballing to say maul still has an edge given clone wars: stealth indicating Kneobi can grow much more powerful over the course of a couple of months(TCW is almost a year away from ROTS) in addition to multiple emotional confrontations(per kotor 2 these lead to growth) and physical ones including most importantly Kenobi finally letting go of his attachment to Anakin.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kenobi's wild space feat is sufficient for comparison with malgus telekentically

embarrasment

DarthAnt66
Bu-but I thought Kenobi >> Vitiate!?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kenobi's wild space feat is sufficient for comparison with malgus telekentically.

Nah.


Originally posted by Rockydonovang
and a sabers only match is always going to Kenobi coz he's a tier 8

So is Malgus.



Originally posted by Rockydonovang
with much better physical feats anyway
lmao, based on what?

DarthAnt66
Saying Kenobi is physically stronger than Malgus is just blatant fanboying, tbh. Regardless of what Malgus has demonstrated, it should be obvious by just looking at them who can bench more, lmfao. This is where logic comes in play. However, I recall Malgus throwing Jedi around with one arm in those trailers. Kenobi's never replicated that in a relevant showing.

Rockydonovang
1, Malgus hasn't done jack that puts him as a tier 8.

2. Kenobi has crushed the fist of someone who can dent ships like a cheapspoon, has deflected/avoided omnidirectional blasterfire from ten thousand droids, and has tanked three kicks from someone who can shatter durasteel in quick succession despite having been ko'd twice and tortured severely beforehand

NewGuy01
A lot more powerful than most give him credit for. His reasoning aside, I actually agree with Rocky's conclusion; at his best, I think Kenobi could certainly handle someone like Darth Malgus.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Saying Kenobi is physically stronger than Malgus is just blatant fanboying, tbh. Regardless of what Malgus has demonstrated, it should be obvious by just looking at them who can bench more, lmfao. This is where logic comes in play. However, I recall Malgus throwing Jedi around with one arm in those trailers. Kenobi's never replicated that in a relevant showing.

In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' duranium arms like it was a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone.

Deronn_solo
^^
Sissy.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A lot more powerful than most give him credit for. His reasoning aside, I actually agree with Rocky's conclusion; at his best, I think Kenobi could certainly handle someone like Darth Malgus.
Those three words seem to differentiate you from Kbro, tbh.

nfactor1995
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A lot more powerful than most give him credit for. His reasoning aside, I actually agree with Rocky's conclusion; at his best, I think Kenobi could certainly handle someone like Darth Malgus.



In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' steel arms like a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone.

You would back Kenobi over prime Malgus? (Prime being False Emperor Malgus)

NewGuy01
That's what I just said?

TenebrousWay
I don't see how Malgus can't ragdoll, though. I've seen nothing that puts Kenobi on par with Deceived Malgus in power much less with Illum Malgus, who's far more powerful than his previous iteration.

There's also scaling from the Dromund Kaas DS nexus from the Vitiate/HoT showdown that Malgus benefits.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Saying Kenobi is physically stronger than Malgus is just blatant fanboying, tbh. Regardless of what Malgus has demonstrated, it should be obvious by just looking at them who can bench more, lmfao. This is where logic comes in play. However, I recall Malgus throwing Jedi around with one arm in those trailers. Kenobi's never replicated that in a relevant showing.
there's a difference between lifting strength(not relevant) and striking power.
That Malgus can bench more isn't going to help him unless you suppose he's going to try and throw Kenobi physically which would end up with him being cut into a million pieces.

That Kenobi has sufficient arm strength that he can crush the arm of someone who can dent Starfighters actually matters here as the strength of your arm dictates how hard you can strike

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A lot more powerful than most give him credit for. His reasoning aside, I actually agree with Rocky's conclusion; at his best, I think Kenobi could certainly handle someone like Darth Malgus.



In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' duranium arms like it was a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone.
what are your issues with my reasoning if I may ask?

Rockydonovang
Great Ant, now explain why we shouldn't take what Kenobi can do at his best?

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Kenobi has sufficient arm strength that he can crush the arm of someone who can dent Starfighters actually matters here as the strength of your arm dictates how hard you can strike

Those two things don't seem to have anything to do with each other.

The impact Grievous can generate when throwing a punch is going to be a lot greater than the amount of pressure Grievous can put on Kenobi when Kenobi is holding his wrist (which is, at best, just body weight, I imagine).

It's not like Grievous went to punch Kenobi and Kenobi blocked it with his hands.

Malgus is going to be physically superior because not only is he blatantly stronger w/o augmentation, but he's also blatantly more powerful so he's going to have stronger augmentation.



Refer back to that quote from Witwer that described it well: Kenobi is a B-grade Jedi who can perform A-tier in certain circumstances.

When we debate, I imagine we debate their standard-self, not any extreme circumstances, unless specified.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by NewGuy01




In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' duranium arms like it was a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone.
Here:

Grievous can do this:
https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=3m31s

Deronn_solo
Except, he does? lmao.

It's a bit complicated and requires scaling and hype. Don't really feel like going into all that right now, lal.




- Malgus was completely crushing Leneer with his physical blows alone .
- Physically taking it to both Zallow, and Adraas, with the latter, he broke his ribs with a kicked and snapped his neck via strangulation.

- He was physically walking through Satele's Hadouken, after he was slammed through the cliff-side hard enough to leave his body imprint.


Add that to the fact that, Darth Malgus' strength, actually plays a key role in all of his shown fights - wheather it's sending Jedi flying, beating down their guards, or kicking them like a MMA artist. On he flipside, however, strength almost never play any sort of role in Kenobi duels. So, it's clear strength is a major component of Malgus' game, while, the opposite for Ben's. Plus, while what Kenobi did to GG is indeed impressive, I generally rank demolishing powerful Force users over destroying inorganic shit. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Feel free to disagree.




Malgus was going blow for blow with Lener, someone who was moving/reacting in microseconds, and seeing hyperspace ships in slowmotion, suffice to say, speed won't be a problem for Malgus at all.




Malgus has,
- tanked Satele Kamehameha wave
- tanked an freaking grenade exploding point blank on his face
- blew off tons of rubble off his person after tanking Satele's blast through a freaking cliff-side.

Malgus is more durable, without question. thumb up

nfactor1995
Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's what I just said?

*sigh* Implication of my statement being why do you believe this exactly?

Rockydonovang
I'm gonna relook at the novel before I address your fisrts point.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Refer back to that quote from Witwer that described it well: Kenobi is a B-grade Jedi who can perform A-tier in certain circumstances.

When we debate, I imagine we debate their standard-self, not any extreme circumstances, unless specified.

It's nice to see you consider voice actor opinons worth crap but statements of authority and canonical ones worthless.

Anyhow, no, Witwer didn't say crap about special circumstances. What he said was that
A. Kenobi at his best is great
B. Kenobi not at his best isn't so great.

You might note that B referred to that fight where he had been ko'd twice beforehand and was mentally unbalanced(before that he was winning)

A off course refers to when Kenobi made use of an ability we have seen him use multiple times at will(in other word snot circumstantial) to boost his own performance.

Kenobi can use EM(empty meditation) against malgus if he needs to though I find even that dubious given how even without em Kenobi was still edging Maul out in their 1 v 1 before they went to the cave(he made maul's legs whine and then landed a kick which maul took 6 seconds to recover from).

In other words, Kenobi, not fighting at his best was still better thana superior version of one of th emost skilled sith in history who happens to be in the tier above tier 7's who represent the peak of lightsaber combat in the mythos.

Lets say malgus's hype/scaling puts him at the peak of lightsaber combat and marks him as one of the best in history, that still only puts him at a tier 7

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
snip

The kick that broke Adraas' ribs also sent him flying hard enough to shatter a stone pillar "like lightning would split a tree", just to add.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I personally have FE Malgus a bit above the SOR Protags.

FE Malgus > SOR HoT ~ ROTS Kenobi

Kenobi being a better duelist, the Hero being a more powerful force wielder.

Rockydonovang
what does the hot have on par with Kenobi's wildspace showing?(keep in mind that was tcw Kenobi)

nfactor1995
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'm gonna relook at the novel before I address your fisrts point.


It's nice to see you consider voice actor opinons worth crap but statements of authority and canonical ones worthless.

Anyhow, no, Witwer didn't say crap about special circumstances. What he said was that
A. Kenobi at his best is great
B. Kenobi not at his best isn't so great.

You might note that B referred to that fight where he had been ko'd twice beforehand and was mentally unbalanced(before that he was winning)

A off course refers to when Kenobi made use of an ability we have seen him use multiple times at will(in other word snot circumstantial) to boost his own performance.

Kenobi can use EM(empty meditation) against malgus if he needs to though I find even that dubious given how even without em Kenobi was still edging Maul out in their 1 v 1 before they went to the cave(he made maul's legs whine and then landed a kick which maul took 6 seconds to recover from).

In other words, Kenobi, not fighting at his best was still better thana superior version of one of th emost skilled sith in history who happens to be in the tier above tier 7's who represent the peak of lightsaber combat in the mythos.

Lets say malgus's hype/scaling puts him at the peak of lightsaber combat and marks him as one of the best in history, that still only puts him at a tier 7

Question sort of relating to the topic, but more so just in a vacuum: In your opinion, what constitutes an "8" in this lightsaber dueling tiering system that you keep referencing? What would a TOR (or KOTOR, or Ancient Sith, or DBT era) character have to do for you to consider them an 8? Because it basically sounds like you believe that achieving tier 8 status is something that can literally only be done by PT combatants.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by nfactor1995
Question sort of relating to the topic, but more so just in a vacuum: In your opinion, what constitutes an "8" in this lightsaber dueling tiering system that you keep referencing? What would a TOR (or KOTOR, or Ancient Sith, or DBT era) character have to do for you to consider them an 8? Because it basically sounds like you believe that achieving tier 8 status is something that can literally only be done by PT combatants.
You'd need to get significant scaling over someone who is indisputably and definitively one of the most skilled swordsmen in history.

As a reference point: TPM Maul is significantly above qui-gon who is one of the best in history per multiple statements and hence has earned the status of a tier 8.

And yes they're more pt era characters who fit here which make sense when you consider that
A. the pt era is the jedi order in it's prime
B. Tier 8 is described as "cheat" which indicates it would be beyond your typical top tier duelists
C. The top 5 of the pt era, yoda, sidious, Anakin, Dooku, and mace all of accolades/hype that put them quite literally as the best 5 duelists in the mythos as of their era.
D. The PT era would build on all the knowledge of the older eras and the training methods ect.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
The kick that broke Adraas' ribs also sent him flying hard enough to shatter a stone pillar "like lightning would split a tree", just to add.

Yeah, Malgus is the definition of a tank/bruiser in Star Wars. thumb up

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
what does the hot have on par with Kenobi's wildspace showing?(keep in mind that was tcw Kenobi)

the Dromund Kaas feat, no doubt. Kyle Katarn turned to the dark side by being on Dromund Kaas, and Luke and Jaina had much trouble fighting on the planet, yet Hero of Tython fights through Imperial Honor Guards and Sith in the Dark Temple, gives Vitiate extra time to recover to save his apprentice from more sith and guards, then defeats Vitiate in the heart of his power.

NewGuy01
What's this Wild Space showing Rocky keeps referring to?

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
the Dromund Kaas feat, no doubt. Kyle Katarn turned to the dark side by being on Dromund Kaas, and Luke and Jaina had much trouble fighting on the planet, yet Hero of Tython fights through Imperial Honor Guards and Sith in the Dark Temple, gives Vitiate extra time to recover to save his apprentice from more sith and guards, then defeats Vitiate in the heart of his power.
I mean that's really impressive will-power/resistance, but the first part is basically killing fodder.

As for the second part, given that HOT was able to only pull a single collum of the wall with strain while a near dead vitiate was collapsing the entire ceiling, I'm not sure how much of that can be attributed to power.

Sinious
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
As for the second part, given that HOT was able to only pull a single collum of the wall with strain while a near dead vitiate was collapsing the entire ceiling, I'm not sure how much of that can be attributed to power. laughing out loud

Ursumeles
~ KotFE Outlander.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by NewGuy01
What's this Wild Space showing Rocky keeps referring to?
here:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-kenobi-vs-darth-zannah-1804633/?page=1
post #39 and #46

DarthAnt66
Based on the text description, sounds a lot like how other writers would describe a Oneness moment to me.

Regardless, we saw in Clone Wars Legacy that Kenobi couldn't lift that big kyber crystal w/o Anakin's help. thumb up

ares834
Assuming I read the same passage you were talking about, I don't see anything to suggest it was a moment of "oneness".

DarthAnt66
Stover aside (and even then, debatable), I don't really see Star Wars novels going into deep prologues about the Force imbuing them with life and being enlightened w/o it being an event like Anakin, vs the Vong, Jacen vs Onimi, Luke vs Abeloth, etc.

Deronn_solo
Whether it's a showing of Oneness or not, it sure as hell isn't a combat applicable showings, either. Dude rooted himself in the Force, while being in a near meditative state.

Hardly comparable, to guys like Malgus that can instantly release tons upon tons of teleketic power in the spur of the moment, with a single repulse.

ares834
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Stover aside (and even then, debatable), I don't really see Star Wars novels going into deep prologues about the Force imbuing them with life and being enlightened w/o it being an event like Anakin, vs the Vong, Jacen vs Onimi, Luke vs Abeloth, etc.

I guess I'd need more evidence. The description reads like a meditative trance and not much more.

NewGuy01
everything is oneness, but some things are more oneness than others.

ares834
True enough.

TenebrousWay
Huh? Obi Wan stabilized Organa's ship and floated it towards a nearby space station under the influence zero gravity. He didn't propel the ship and Organa still had, at minimum, partial control of the ship.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'll argue Kenobi>Maul

As a swordsmen it's clear cut, pre-prime Kenobi has repeatedly showcased superiority with a blade to maul despite generally unfavorable circumstances. Even in their 1 v 1 on florrum, Kneobi sowed a slight edge via shadow conspiracy despite not even using battle meditation yet(and unlike the portion in the cave there's no contradiction).

As a force user, while Maul has repeatedly tk'd Kenobi, they've all been circumstantial and its spitballing to say maul still has an edge given clone wars: stealth indicating Kneobi can grow much more powerful over the course of a couple of months(TCW is almost a year away from ROTS) in addition to multiple emotional confrontations(per kotor 2 these lead to growth) and physical ones including most importantly Kenobi finally letting go of his attachment to Anakin.


I'd say he beats Maul by this point in time, but in a really good fight.

DarthAnt66
I'll always maintain SoD Maul = RotS Kenobi, tbh.

Darth Thor
Yeah roughly. But they won't be exact equals, and so based on Kenobi beating Mustafar Anakin I'd be inclined to give him the majority.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by ares834
Assuming I read the same passage you were talking about, I don't see anything to suggest it was a moment of "oneness".
Ant likes baselessly throwing feats he doesn't like out so he doesn't have to address them.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah roughly. But they won't be exact equals, and so based on Kenobi beating Mustafar Anakin I'd be inclined to give him the majority.
ROTS Maul is likely close

TCW Maul vs TCW Kenobi is debatable enough

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ant likes baselessly throwing feats he doesn't like out so he doesn't have to address them.
More like Ant has seen the films and TV shows and knows the power Kenobi should be showing, so when he shows something seemingly well beyond his limits, something's probably up.

Looks like TenebrousWay explained it though.

cs_zoltan
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
More like Ant has seen the films and TV shows and knows the power Kenobi should be showing, so when he shows something seemingly well beyond his limits, something's probably up.

You mean how Anakin showed his Yoda tier powers in the films, where you wank him?

DarthAnt66
thumb up Anakin showed his Yoda tier powers against Dooku, when he downed that hoe so fast that even Sidious was jealous.

cs_zoltan
You confuse dueling with power. If you go by the moves and TCW Mace can't beat like 30 droids on his own, Yoda struggles with a metal pillar, Anakin gets kicked around by a senator, Dooku can't beat a bunch of pirates, Maul gets floored by a dog etc etc...

DarthAnt66
thumb up Hence why I don't really debate Legends much anymore.

Zenwolf
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
thumb up Hence why I don't really debate Legends much anymore.

But all of that is Canon?

DarthAnt66
thumb up

UCanShootMyNova
#Mindfukt

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Huh? Obi Wan stabilized Organa's ship and floated it towards a nearby space station under the influence zero gravity. He didn't propel the ship and Organa still had, at minimum, partial control of the ship. 'Sure and he also simultaneously cloaked the ship with a cacoon of light and performed the feat "barely breaking a sweat"

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
'Sure and he also simultaneously cloaked the ship with a cacoon of light and performed the feat "barely breaking a sweat"

It's kinda lacking when comparing to preventing a ship from taking off with the full power of it's thrusters. Especially considering how much power the engines from Star Wars can generate.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
It's kinda lacking when comparing to preventing a ship from taking off with the full power of it's thrusters. Especially considering how much power the engines from Star Wars can generate.
I'm dipping, I don't like having to deal with physics and shizz when dealing with fictional characters (or really like ever since I don't know crap about any of that)

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'm dipping, I don't like having to deal with physics and shizz when dealing with fictional characters (or really like ever since I don't know crap about any of that)

Ok, but they are not comparable at all. They are orders of magnitude apart.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Ok, but they are not comparable at all. They are orders of magnitude apart.
Doubt it tbh, but I'll let someone who knows science take my place

Darth Thor
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
You mean how Anakin showed his Yoda tier powers in the films, where you wank him?


He actually showed powers beyond Yoda In TCW against the Son and Daughter.

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