Thanos w/HOTI vs. Cosmic Armor Superman

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backup
Thanos w/HOTI:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/104069/2422972-marvel_the_end__6__8_.jpg

vs.

Cosmic Armor Superman:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139163/3522639-2760337-19571729.jpg

Who wins?

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by backup
Thanos w/HOTI:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/104069/2422972-marvel_the_end__6__8_.jpg

vs.

Cosmic Armor Superman:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139163/3522639-2760337-19571729.jpg

Who wins?

You mean HOTU? Thanos wins with ease!

Juntai
The Cosmic Armor wins. That's what it was designed to do. Its a force greater than the multiverse that adapts to any plot and wins.

If the plot is, Thanos attains HOTU and fights him, it evolves, and beats him.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
The Cosmic Armor wins. That's what it was designed to do. Its a force greater than the multiverse that adapts to any plot and wins.

If the plot is, Thanos attains HOTU and fights him, it evolves, and beats him.

And there is where you are wrong! Because Thanos doesn't have to fight him because he becomes superman. While the Infinity gems gives you all the power in the universe, the HOTU actually makes you all the beings within this - Thanos description of the HOTU. Thanos erases Superman with the Cosmic Armor with a thought.

Zack M
Thought Robot, ftw.

Board Walker
Cosmic armor is above the universal power that the HOTU is.

Cosmic armor is meta-versal, a completely different tier of power

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And there is where you are wrong! Because Thanos doesn't have to fight him because he becomes superman. While the Infinity gems gives you all the power in the universe, the HOTU actually makes you all the beings within this - Thanos description of the HOTU. Thanos erases Superman with the Cosmic Armor with a thought. it is created to win any scenario, regardless of scenario. time, space, multiverses and their characters are just stories being told from it's perspective and it's a walking plot designed to evolve and be greater than any shy of the Overvoid/Overmonitor itself.

The whole point of it being Beyond3D was to show how far beyond the 2 Dimension comics 'stories' he actually was.
He existed conceptually in the highest point that a story can achieve, drastically beyond the level of the multiverse in the highest conceptual sphere. At bridge between reader, god, and stories forming around him. He feels the comic being held, the pages turning, and feels as if he can actually reach out and touch the reader and could feel and change the story.

The stronger the enemy, the stronger it writes itself to be to win, to no determined end. It just wins. Propelled forward by the very concept of heroism, projected by the reader.

This was essentially Morrison's retelling of god creating the angels/Monitors, and the enemy, but all in the form of conceptually high end cosmic beings, and CA Superman is greater than all of them.. It even defeats the part of the OverMonitor itself that hates the multiverse and stories. Just keeps evolving past it.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
it is created to win any scenario, regardless of scenario. time, space, multiverses and their characters are just stories being told from it's perspective and it's a walking plot designed to evolve and be greater than any shy of the Overvoid/Overmonitor itself.

The whole point of it being Beyond3D was to show how far beyond the 2 Dimension comics 'stories' he actually was.
He existed conceptually in the highest point that a story can achieve, drastically beyond the level of the multiverse in the highest conceptual sphere. At bridge between reader, god, and stories forming around him. He feels the comic being held, the pages turning, and feels as if he can actually reach out and touch the reader and could feel and change the story.

The stronger the enemy, the stronger it writes itself to be to win, to no determined end. It just wins. Propelled forward by the very concept of heroism, projected by the reader.

This was essentially Morrison's retelling of god creating the angels/Monitors, and the enemy, but all in the form of conceptually high end cosmic beings, and CA Superman is greater than all of them.. It even defeats the part of the OverMonitor itself that hates the multiverse and stories. Just keeps evolving past it.

IK. But there is the problem with it! Because the Enemy is itself. When Thanos grabbed the HOTU he became everyone in the Multiverse. He could feel what they felt, hear what they hear, everything! He obtained the power of everyone and erased everything in existance, including the Livinig tribunal. It is said that the HOTU is the power of TOAA itself. If this is true then the Armor can't equal this power, since TOAA is above everything, he simply is.

But again, it isn't a matter of Thanos just coming and fighting superman, like he would do if he had the Gaunlet. Thanos would become Superman with the Armor and just erase him from existance like he did with all the other beings.

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IK. But there is the problem with it! Because the Enemy is itself. When Thanos grabbed the HOTU he became everyone in the Multiverse. He could feel what they felt, hear what they hear, everything! He obtained the power of everyone and erased everything in existance, including the Livinig tribunal. It is said that the HOTU is the power of TOAA itself. If this is true then the Armor can't equal this power, since TOAA is above everything, he simply is.

But again, it isn't a matter of Thanos just coming and fighting superman, like he would do if he had the Gaunlet. Thanos would become Superman with the Armor and just erase him from existance like he did with all the other beings. And all that he became was still below Cosmic Armor Superman.

And, that avenue wouldn't work, because the Armor would adapt to the story.

wxyz
Thanos wins easily.

cdtm
Superman is under the eye of Grant Morrison, the same diety who took an interest in Animal Man. Therefore, Morrison's metaphysical Superman wins.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
And all that he became was still below Cosmic Armor Superman.

And, that avenue wouldn't work, because the Armor would adapt to the story.

You mean the Armor would adapt to it's own power? Because once Thanos grabs the Heart he would be Superman with the Cosmic armor. So, it would be like Superman fighting himself. Thanos wins dude, just erases Superman.

Glorificus
Thanos stomps.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You mean the Armor would adapt to it's own power? Because once Thanos grabs the Heart he would be Superman with the Cosmic armor. So, it would be like Superman fighting himself. Thanos wins dude, just erases Superman.
It's not Superman wearing an armor.

Cosmic Armor is as unbeatable as anything below a Supreme being. Thanos gets stomped like nothing.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Juntai
And all that he became was still below Cosmic Armor Superman.

And, that avenue wouldn't work, because the Armor would adapt to the story.

What has it overcome that makes it superior to the HOTU?

Thanos also makes the distinction that unlike his previous omnipotence, this was not an external property to him:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111122896/5820351-4244127-2804694-marvel_universe___the_end__5_02.jpg

Or for a better word, he became God.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/a4/Thanos_with_The_Heart_of_the_Universe.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140910164301

abhilegend
Originally posted by Damborgson
What has it overcome that makes it superior to the HOTU?

Thanos also makes the distinction that unlike his previous omnipotence, this was not an external property to him:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111122896/5820351-4244127-2804694-marvel_universe___the_end__5_02.jpg

Or for a better word, he became God.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/a4/Thanos_with_The_Heart_of_the_Universe.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140910164301
Thanos had gained being mastery over an universe and became everything in it. That's still a universal status of being and even Source is able to grant that to Spectre with a portion of its power.

Cosmic Armor was beyond Source, beyond entire DC creation and more powerful than anything in creation besides Mandrakk. It was literally undefeatable, unstoppable story of Superman given form to stop the enemy of all existence.

It's one of the most meta things in comics and isn't suitable for battle boards.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's still a universal status of being and even Source is able to grant that to Spectre with a portion of its power.

No. Not universal status, because he was able to defeat the Living Tribunal with it. A universal status weapon isn't above the Tribunal. For instance, the Infinity Gaunlet is a universal status weapon, for there is 1 gaunlet in each universe. An the Tribunal is above these. The HOTU however was able to defeat everything, tribunal and everything. He wiped out the Multiverse. There was only Thanos, in empty space. Then he set everything back, and gave up his powers.

So, no. The Heart of the universe isn't considered a universal weapon, and can threaten the entire multiverse. As i said before, the one who possesses the Heart Becomes everything in the universe, and potentially the multiverse. So, if Superman were to fight Thanos with this, he would lose, for superman is a being which is part of the multiverse/universe therefore HOTU has power over him. In that sense, then Superman would lose. No matter how powerful the Armor is, it would lose, since the one wearing the armor is affected by the Heart. The HOTU doesn't have to penetrate or directly attack the armor to damage the one wearing it.

Superman would lose. Not saying that the Armor is affected by the Heart, but he one wearing it is. Thanos erases superman from existance and therefore the armor is left without anyone to wear it but Thanos stick out tongue stick out tongue stick out tongue .

xJLxKing
Superman wins!

Hotu does not make you the creator. It's oxymoron

JBL
Who has CA beaten worth mentioning? Thanos wins.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
HOTU Thanos only destroyed a single universe, not the multiverse. This has been proven time and time again.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
HOTU Thanos only destroyed a single universe, not the multiverse. This has been proven time and time again.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Universe

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/heart-of-the-universe/4055-56451/

read about the HOTU. It is considered an omnipotent weapon. And it did erased the entire Marvel Multiverse. That is the very reason the Living Tribunal tried to stop him in the first place. Cause it threatened he entire multiverse and it did.

The HOTU grants is weilder omnipotent powers.

Thanos erases superman with a wave of his hand. And the Armor remains floating in the void of space just to be grabbed by thanos in the end. :P

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

The Heart of the universe isn't considered a universal weapon, and can threaten the entire multiverse. As i said before, the one who possesses the Heart Becomes everything in the universe, and potentially the multiverse. . And the Cosmic Armor is still way above this.

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Universe

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/heart-of-the-universe/4055-56451/

read about the HOTU. It is considered an omnipotent weapon. And it did erased the entire Marvel Multiverse. That is the very reason the Living Tribunal tried to stop him in the first place. Cause it threatened he entire multiverse and it did.

The HOTU grants is weilder omnipotent powers.

Thanos erases superman with a wave of his hand. And the Armor remains floating in the void of space just to be grabbed by thanos in the end. :P Thanos absorbed a universe.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
Thanos absorbed a universe.

Did you read the links???

Damborgson
He doesn't seem interested in actually contesting the claim, just expressing it.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Not universal status, because he was able to defeat the Living Tribunal with it. A universal status weapon isn't above the Tribunal. For instance, the Infinity Gaunlet is a universal status weapon, for there is 1 gaunlet in each universe. An the Tribunal is above these. The HOTU however was able to defeat everything, tribunal and everything. He wiped out the Multiverse. There was only Thanos, in empty space. Then he set everything back, and gave up his powers.

So, no. The Heart of the universe isn't considered a universal weapon, and can threaten the entire multiverse. As i said before, the one who possesses the Heart Becomes everything in the universe, and potentially the multiverse. So, if Superman were to fight Thanos with this, he would lose, for superman is a being which is part of the multiverse/universe therefore HOTU has power over him. In that sense, then Superman would lose. No matter how powerful the Armor is, it would lose, since the one wearing the armor is affected by the Heart. The HOTU doesn't have to penetrate or directly attack the armor to damage the one wearing it.

Superman would lose. Not saying that the Armor is affected by the Heart, but he one wearing it is. Thanos erases superman from existance and therefore the armor is left without anyone to wear it but Thanos stick out tongue stick out tongue stick out tongue .
Again, have you actually read this comic? Starlin's LT IS universal. There is a LT in each universe as per Starlin.

Go read the comic and come back.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by abhilegend
Again, have you actually read this comic? Starlin's LT IS universal. There is a LT in each universe as per Starlin.

Go read the comic and come back.

I begin to wonder if you have read the comics. The Living Tribunal is Multiversal. It is perfectly stated by Eternity to Doom when this first meets Eternity. While the other cosmic beings are universal (There is one eternity, one infinity for each universe) The Living Tribunal is Multiversal, for there is one Tribunal for the entire Multiverse. Now i think i know where you are going wrong. The Living Tribunal is Omnipresence, which means yes, There can be a Tribunal in every universe. But this is because he is Omnipresence which means he can be in several places at the same time. This however doesn't mean he is universal.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I begin to wonder if you have read the comics. The Living Tribunal is Multiversal. It is perfectly stated by Eternity to Doom when this first meets Eternity. While the other cosmic beings are universal (There is one eternity, one infinity for each universe) The Living Tribunal is Multiversal, for there is one Tribunal for the entire Multiverse. Now i think i know where you are going wrong. The Living Tribunal is Omnipresence, which means yes, There can be a Tribunal in every universe. But this is because he is Omnipresence which means he can be in several places at the same time. This however doesn't mean he is universal.
Jim Starlin (who wrote HOTU) had LT as universal.

Originally posted by abhilegend
So now when its clearly established that under Starlin, LT of 616 universe is merely universal and HOTU only gave a fragment of power of TOAA who is not the writer BTW.

http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/26895528_8139281.jpg

http://s6d7.turboimg.net/t1/26895650_3595963.jpg

mmm

Lucifer wins this even more easily.

There is one LT in each universe as per Starlin, one actually died and was absorbed by Adam Warlock of that reality.

Could you show us where Starlin wrote LT as multiversal?

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by abhilegend
Jim Starlin (who wrote HOTU) had LT as universal.



There is one LT in each universe as per Starlin, one actually died and was absorbed by Adam Warlock of that reality.

Could you show us where Starlin wrote LT as multiversal?

Lol. Is that the comic when Adam Warlock becomes the Living Tribunal??? Cause you should know that that story isn't canon.

And just because one writter states something doesn't mean it is true. Other comics will disapprove his statements. Besides Starlin doesn't have the authority to make such a claim; a claim which would Retcon several continuity comics.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Living_Tribunal_(Multiverse)

Here, he is considered a Multiversal being.

Juntai
You keep posting Wikis. They aren't evidence.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lol. Is that the comic when Adam Warlock becomes the Living Tribunal??? Cause you should know that that story isn't canon.

And just because one writter states something doesn't mean it is true. Other comics will disapprove his statements. Besides Starlin doesn't have the authority to make such a claim; a claim which would Retcon several continuity comics.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Living_Tribunal_(Multiverse)

Here, he is considered a Multiversal being.
Again, where do you find this evidence that it's non canon.

Considering it's Starlin who wrote both stories, it's pretty much Canon for his own stories.

Board Walker
Thanos with the HOTU has the supreme power of one universe, he became everything that was in that universe which is why he was able to defeat that universe's LT.

Juntai
Originally posted by Damborgson
What has it overcome that makes it superior to the HOTU?

Thanos also makes the distinction that unlike his previous omnipotence, this was not an external property to him:

https://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111122896/5820351-4244127-2804694-marvel_universe___the_end__5_02.jpg

Or for a better word, he became God.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/a/a4/Thanos_with_The_Heart_of_the_Universe.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140910164301 Right, instead of the Gauntlet, where he had the ability to control externally, he instead became it.

Beating LT doesn't change the scope of the story, as the Tribunal has M-Bodies in every universe. There isn't anything in the story that suggests it was more than one.

Damning evidence is that people that were outside of the universe at the time he was absorbing it were all just fine, beyond his power and his awareness. "Adam Warlock, only you could miss the end of the universe." http://imgur.com/ASeMCMu

But moreover, it's that none of this matters, because universe, and even multiverse power are still below the Cosmic Armor.

leonidas
ffs stop posting handbooks/wikis as proof. meaningless AND against the rules.

Juntai
Originally posted by abhilegend
Again, where do you find this evidence that it's non canon.

Considering it's Starlin who wrote both stories, it's pretty much Canon for his own stories. The irony is that Marvels stance has always been that The End altogether was non-Canon, it happened in a single alternate future.

http://www.fictionalbattleomniverse.com/t919-the-heart-of-the-universe-is-non-canon#.VtaJs30ABhY.reddit

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
You keep posting Wikis. They aren't evidence.

Wikis Based on comics. They are evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwDlc9LeoTQ

There you got a video which explains the role of the Living Tribunal, and his cosmic Hierchy. It is based on comics if you wondered! Am trying to find this comic in where Eternity specifically states that the Tribunal is multiversal, but i cant find it. When i do i'll post it.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by abhilegend
Again, where do you find this evidence that it's non canon.

Considering it's Starlin who wrote both stories, it's pretty much Canon for his own stories.

His own stories. Not whats going on in the current universe. The story of Warlock becoming the Tribunal happens in another reality, and has no relation with the events that occur after Secret Wars. For instance, the Living Tribunal that appears in the Ultimates (which is a canon story) isn't Adam Warlock, proving that Starlin's story hasn't been taken into consideration.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
Right, instead of the Gauntlet, where he had the ability to control externally, he instead became it.

Beating LT doesn't change the scope of the story, as the Tribunal has M-Bodies in every universe. There isn't anything in the story that suggests it was more than one.

Damning evidence is that people that were outside of the universe at the time he was absorbing it were all just fine, beyond his power and his awareness. "Adam Warlock, only you could miss the end of the universe." http://imgur.com/ASeMCMu

But moreover, it's that none of this matters, because universe, and even multiverse power are still below the Cosmic Armor.

The fact of him defeating the Tribunal is prove enought that he did erased the entire Multiverse. The Tribunal never steps into a quarrel unless it threatens the Multiverse, and that has been pretty much stated several times through the comics. THE TRIBUNAL'S ROLE IS TO KEEP THE BALANCE IN THE MULTIVERSE. If the HOTU wouldn't have threatened this, the Tribunal wouldn't have appeared in the first place!

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
But moreover, it's that none of this matters, because universe, and even multiverse power are still below the Cosmic Armor.

You are right, it doesn't matter that the Armor is above Multiversal scale, because Superman isn't. And he IS affected by the HOTU. Meaning the Armor is useless to protect him. Superman gets erases within the suit, whether you like it or not.

Juntai
Wikis are not evidence on the forum. Until you stop using them and start using actual comics to back up your stances, no one will take anything you say seriously.

If you want to prove The End was a multiversal story, open up a comic and show us where, because Marvel's stance is that it's an alternate universes' future and only affected that universe. Earth-4321.

As such, people outside of that universe, like Adam Warlock when it was absorbed were unaffected.

Moreover, Thanos made death permanent, which also does not apply to the main Marvel Universe.

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
You are right, it doesn't matter that the Armor is above Multiversal scale, because Superman isn't. And he IS affected by the HOTU. Meaning the Armor is useless to protect him. Superman gets erases within the suit, whether you like it or not. laughing

No.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
Wikis are not evidence on the forum. Until you stop using them and start using actual comics to back up your stances, no one will take anything you say seriously.

If you want to prove The End was a multiversal story, open up a comic and show us where, because Marvel's stance is that it's an alternate universes' future and only affected that universe. Earth-4321.

As such, people outside of that universe, like Adam Warlock when it was absorbed were unaffected.

Moreover, Thanos made death permanent, which also does not apply to the main Marvel Universe.

Hmmm, probably i should. There goes your first one.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/main-qimg-65167dbeaafb958ec0375d89a297a8df-c_zpsmuruzy47.jpeg

The Multiverse taken form....Multiversal being!

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/ 8f40d9cc818b81cd7b66d60d06ccf92d18770fe9_hq_zpsgwc
7lu62.jpg

Specifically stated that he is multiversal because he rules over universes. It is stated that he is simultaniously in all universes, but that doesn't mean he is a universal being.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/5e82ef77cd402926af6668fe72fd3672_zpshfxs7kyo.jpg

"The Tribunal would have destroyed earth and it's reality"-Dr.Strange. A reality is equals to a universe. He would destroy Earth's universe meaning he is above Universal scale. Unlike Eternity where his powers are limited to that universe, for he is the universe.

I could keep uploading extracts of comics all day and keep proving you my point just as i did with the Wiki link. Here i leave you a like of a GOOD youtube channel which explains comics and characters so you can better inform yourself. AND DON'T COME AND TELL ME THAT IT ISN'T EVIDENCE NOR VALID! Because the dude explains his points while showing comics, so it is pretty valid!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwDlc9LeoTQ - Comics Explain.

After reading this, now you give me a SINGLE comic in where it is said that the Tribunal is a Universal being; i doubt you can find one.

Damborgson
Originally posted by Juntai
Right, instead of the Gauntlet, where he had the ability to control externally, he instead became it.

Beating LT doesn't change the scope of the story, as the Tribunal has M-Bodies in every universe. There isn't anything in the story that suggests it was more than one.

Damning evidence is that people that were outside of the universe at the time he was absorbing it were all just fine, beyond his power and his awareness. "Adam Warlock, only you could miss the end of the universe." http://imgur.com/ASeMCMu

But moreover, it's that none of this matters, because universe, and even multiverse power are still below the Cosmic Armor.

Yes, he became the supreme being right below the actual one above all.

Yes, but he still easily defeated the multiversal entity LT. He didnt destroy Marvel multiverse but he did defeat its emboidment/protector.

Why? Its not meant to be a sarcastic or loaded question, why are those powers so inconceivably below the armors capabilities?

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by leonidas
ffs stop posting handbooks/wikis as proof. meaningless AND against the rules.

Evidence is evidence. If the Wiki shows evidence proving it's points isn't meaningless. The only reason i used the wiki is because i want to save myself from going to find the evidence myself. But either way i did now so you can see the Wiki isn't wrong.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Damborgson
Yes, but he still easily defeated the multiversal entity LT. He didnt destroy Marvel multiverse but he did defeat its emboidment/protector.

You are right, Thanos didn't destroy the Multiverse. But he did in a way. By destroying the LT it means that the multiverse is without protector. Also remeber that the LT is the strongest being in the Multiverse, so that means that Thanos with the HOTU is now the strongest and is above the multiverse.

The dude just doesn't get the powers of the HOTU.

Juntai
Yes, we've been through this. Tribunal is the embodiment of the multiverse.
However, he acts through M-Bodies. One in each universe.

The End took place in a single universe. Plot points introduced within it, such as Death being absolute, took place within Earth-4321, as Death is not absolute in 616.

Adam Warlock, being outside of the universe in this story, was outside of Thanos' awareness, and his absorbing the universe.

There is nothing in the story that suggests it was more than a universe outside of you wanting it to be because of the inclusion of the Tribunal.

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 says the events of The End take place in Earth-4321.


As shown here, even Marvel's senior editor agrees that it's not-canon to the main Marvel Universe. Moreover, that it was never intended to be so.

http://www.fictionalbattleomniverse.com/t919-the-heart-of-the-universe-is-non-canon#.VtaJs30ABhY.reddit

Magnon
Tribunal is NOT the embodiment of the multiverse, that was just a misconception by the writer. Living Tribunal is exactly what his name implies, the supreme judge over all that exists.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
Yes, we've been through this. Tribunal is the embodiment of the multiverse.
However, he acts through M-Bodies. One in each universe.

The End took place in a single universe. Plot points introduced within it, such as Death being absolute, took place within Earth-4321, as Death is not absolute in 616.

Adam Warlock, being outside of the universe in this story, was outside of Thanos' awareness, and his absorbing the universe.

There is nothing in the story that suggests it was more than a universe outside of you wanting it to be because of the inclusion of the Tribunal.

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 says the events of The End take place in Earth-4321.


As shown here, even Marvel's senior editor agrees that it's not-canon to the main Marvel Universe. Moreover, that it was never intended to be so.

http://www.fictionalbattleomniverse.com/t919-the-heart-of-the-universe-is-non-canon#.VtaJs30ABhY.reddit

Okay yes, there is one Living Tribunal in each universe. But this is expected because the Living Tribunal is Omnipresent. Again, this doesn't mean that the Living Tribunal as a being is at a universal scale. The title multiversal means that he has the power to affect other universe. For instance, Eternity is at a universal power scale. For if there is one eternity in every Universe, each is their own character. (Earth 616 Eternity and Earth 617 eternity although being the same entity, both are different characters). The Tribunal on the other had although being in every universe, is ONE WHOLE character; One Living Tribunal for the entire Multiverse.

By the HOTU killing the Tribunal implies that is above Multiversal scale because it defeated the embodyment of the Multiverse (LT). So, am not wrong here.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Magnon
Tribunal is NOT the embodiment of the multiverse, that was just a misconception by the writer. Living Tribunal is exactly what his name implies, the supreme judge over all that exists.

Not a literal embodiment of the Multiverse (Like for instance Eternity which is an embodiment it's universe). But by embodiment it means it represents the Multiverse. It is the protector of all that there is/the multiverse.

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay yes, there is one Living Tribunal in each universe. But this is expected because the Living Tribunal is Omnipresent. Again, this doesn't mean that the Living Tribunal as a being is at a universal scale. The title multiversal means that he has the power to affect other universe. For instance, Eternity is at a universal power scale. For if there is one eternity in every Universe, each is their own character. (Earth 616 Eternity and Earth 617 eternity although being the same entity, both are different characters). The Tribunal on the other had although being in every universe, is ONE WHOLE character; One Living Tribunal for the entire Multiverse.

By the HOTU killing the Tribunal implies that is above Multiversal scale because it defeated the embodyment of the Multiverse (LT). So, am not wrong here. Sorry, it's clear that this isn't supported. The End comics only refer to universe, its events don't affect 616 Universe, as I've mentioned about making Death absolute not affecting 616, and Warlock being outside of the universe left him unaffected and beyond Thanos' awareness. add that to the OHOTMU and Marvel's editor both say it's alternate timeline, and only in that timeline.

How you reconcile that is up to you, but it's very clear it's one universe and an alternate one.

Steve Zodiac
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Hmmm, probably i should. There goes your first one.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/main-qimg-65167dbeaafb958ec0375d89a297a8df-c_zpsmuruzy47.jpeg

The Multiverse taken form....Multiversal being!

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/ 8f40d9cc818b81cd7b66d60d06ccf92d18770fe9_hq_zpsgwc
7lu62.jpg

Specifically stated that he is multiversal because he rules over universes. It is stated that he is simultaniously in all universes, but that doesn't mean he is a universal being.

http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/5e82ef77cd402926af6668fe72fd3672_zpshfxs7kyo.jpg

"The Tribunal would have destroyed earth and it's reality"-Dr.Strange. A reality is equals to a universe. He would destroy Earth's universe meaning he is above Universal scale. Unlike Eternity where his powers are limited to that universe, for he is the universe.

I could keep uploading extracts of comics all day and keep proving you my point just as i did with the Wiki link. Here i leave you a like of a GOOD youtube channel which explains comics and characters so you can better inform yourself. AND DON'T COME AND TELL ME THAT IT ISN'T EVIDENCE NOR VALID! Because the dude explains his points while showing comics, so it is pretty valid!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwDlc9LeoTQ - Comics Explain.

After reading this, now you give me a SINGLE comic in where it is said that the Tribunal is a Universal being; i doubt you can find one. He is certainly Multiversal in the Multiversal Eternity in Universe Iteration 8 as of Ultimates on sale last year. He still got killed by Chaos and Order.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
Sorry, it's clear that this isn't supported. The End comics only refer to universe, its events don't affect 616 Universe, as I've mentioned about making Death absolute not affecting 616, and Warlock being outside of the universe left him unaffected and beyond Thanos' awareness. add that to the OHOTMU and Marvel's editor both say it's alternate timeline, and only in that timeline.

How you reconcile that is up to you, but it's very clear it's one universe and an alternate one.

One universe and an alternate one that's right. But within the Marvel "universe", the canon one, the multiverse works that way. The Living Tribunal as judge of the Multiverse, and an entity for every universe within the marvel multiverse.

What happens on other stories, remains in other stories (Like Adam warlock becoming LT in the alternate universe).

Steve Zodiac
Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
He is certainly Multiversal in the Multiversal Eternity in Universe Iteration 8 as of Ultimates on sale last year. He still got killed by Chaos and Order. He's dead in present continuity, but then Eternity the whole multiverse itself is chained also

Mr Master
Originally posted by Juntai
Yes, we've been through this. Tribunal is the embodiment of the multiverse.
However, he acts through M-Bodies. One in each universe.

The End took place in a single universe. Plot points introduced within it, such as Death being absolute, took place within Earth-4321, as Death is not absolute in 616.

Adam Warlock, being outside of the universe in this story, was outside of Thanos' awareness, and his absorbing the universe.

There is nothing in the story that suggests it was more than a universe outside of you wanting it to be because of the inclusion of the Tribunal.

The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 says the events of The End take place in Earth-4321.


As shown here, even Marvel's senior editor agrees that it's not-canon to the main Marvel Universe. Moreover, that it was never intended to be no expression . . . WTF? ... Mr M, shall return.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Steve Zodiac


Yeah Eternity in the current continuity has become Multiversal. And, Yes, Chaos and Order killed the tribunal. But once again i don't believe the Tribunal is dead, he is simply not taking part in the events of the Ultimates. Again no cosmic balance is being upset, and therefore the Tribunal isn't needed nor does it get involve.

Juntai
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
One universe and an alternate one that's right. But within the Marvel "universe", the canon one, the multiverse works that way. The Living Tribunal as judge of the Multiverse, and an entity for every universe within the marvel multiverse.

What happens on other stories, remains in other stories (Like Adam warlock becoming LT in the alternate universe). Brevoort actually addresses the claim that beating Tribunal gives this story legitimacy because of Tribunal being multiversal in the link I gave you.

He says it has no relevance to mainstream Marvel, obviously showing a disconnect between this portrayal of LT, and the mainstream one.

They assign it a universe number, as they do with what-ifs and alternate timelines, but "The End" are just contained imaginary stories. Nothing from this story affected anything other than a single universe in an imaginary story where rules can be bent and broken.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Juntai
Brevoort actually addresses the claim that beating Tribunal gives this story legitimacy because of Tribunal being multiversal in the link I gave you.

He says it has no relevance to mainstream Marvel, obviously showing a disconnect between this portrayal of LT, and the mainstream one.

They assign it a universe number, as they do with what-ifs and alternate timelines, but "The End" are just contained imaginary stories. Nothing from this story affected anything other than a single universe in an imaginary story where rules can be bent and broken.

Ofcourse. I get that. We agree in something laughing out loud laughing out loud

Well, to "ME" again HOTU should win. But again this is my opinion, and i respect yours. wink

abhilegend
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
His own stories. Not whats going on in the current universe. The story of Warlock becoming the Tribunal happens in another reality, and has no relation with the events that occur after Secret Wars. For instance, the Living Tribunal that appears in the Ultimates (which is a canon story) isn't Adam Warlock, proving that Starlin's story hasn't been taken into consideration.
ermm

Ewing outright stated that it was hinted to be Adam Warlock LT recently in Ultimates 9.

Insane Titan
Originally posted by Juntai
Brevoort actually addresses the claim that beating Tribunal gives this story legitimacy because of Tribunal being multiversal in the link I gave you.

He says it has no relevance to mainstream Marvel, obviously showing a disconnect between this portrayal of LT, and the mainstream one.

They assign it a universe number, as they do with what-ifs and alternate timelines, but "The End" are just contained imaginary stories. Nothing from this story affected anything other than a single universe in an imaginary story where rules can be bent and broken. Tom B's words mean nothing. On his formsprings, he's said the End was and wasnt canon in the space of a few posts.

Plus the fact the story was linked to and references several other canon stories. It's also shown in recent Thanos books.

abhilegend
The End is canon.

Board Walker
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ofcourse. I get that. We agree in something laughing out loud laughing out loud

Well, to "ME" again HOTU should win. But again this is my opinion, and i respect yours. wink

We need more posts like this, the willingness to acknowledge that our stances are merely personal opinions and not objectively right or wrong.

Thank you for being humble enough to respect the equally as valid opinions of others here in regards to the HOTU being universal or etc.

Rao Kal El
Originally posted by abhilegend
The End is canon.

I never got that quite right.

Is canon for what ever universe it happen?

Is it canon for 616?

Was this 616 thanos?

Is it canon only for the LT?

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I never got that quite right.

Is canon for what ever universe it happen?

Is it canon for 616?

Was this 616 thanos?

Is it canon only for the LT?

Everything that happens withing 616 earth is considered canon (In most cases), since all the major events (the streamline) occurs in this reality. Like the infinity war events, civil war, and other major canon events. A canon comic is one which follows the line of events, but is also validated by upcoming comics. Non canon comics are those which are connected to the main streamline of events; like Adam Warlock becoming the Living Tribunal. If it was a canon event, then it should have been validated by other upcoming comics which portray the Tribunal. For instance, the Living Tribunal that was killed by Lord Chaos and Master Order in the Ultimates should have had the face of Adam (Since it didn't that comic isn't canon).

Now, a canon comic like The Ultimates, is validated since it follows the stream line of events (This comic takes place after the Secret Wars and continues with the story of the formation of the 8th Multiverse/universe).

We can also see examples of these in movies. For instance, the events that take place in the X Men movies can be considered Non Canon, since the main steamline of events are those of the MCU. Movies like Captain America, etc, are validated by other movies. (A good example would be Spiderman Homecoming, in where it is validated by the events of Captain America Civil War).

If the X Men were to be sold back to Marvel, all the events that occured in the previous movies would be considered Non canon, and would be Retcon.

*correct me if am wrong.

Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by Board Walker
We need more posts like this, the willingness to acknowledge that our stances are merely personal opinions and not objectively right or wrong.

Thank you for being humble enough to respect the equally as valid opinions of others here in regards to the HOTU being universal or etc.

Thank you so much.

Juntai
Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I never got that quite right.

Is canon for what ever universe it happen?

Is it canon for 616?

Was this 616 thanos?

Is it canon only for the LT? Thanos mentions it in other Starlin works and its in the old bios for some of the cosmic beings like Tribunal and Infinity. But even all those places still say universe.

Marvunapp, points out , alongside hanbooks, that the story was in universe 4321 and affected only that timeline, but as all duplicate universes are divergent, its hard to gauge where the timeline diverted and what events actually may have transpired.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/akhenaton.htm

But we know from everything else, that it did not happen in 616. Which is what Brevoort was suggesting. That it's not canon to the main marvel universe.

There is some cool theories about how and why Thanos alone knows though.

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