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http://i.imgur.com/jmxNWVA.jpg

vs

http://i.imgur.com/2H39Z8g.jpg

The shadow stomps team two by itself.

Are you aware how powerful the shadow is?

No, how powerful?

Originally posted by Zack M
No, how powerful?

Shadow is dope man. Hypnotism (but this works better on the weak-willed), precog (ill-defined at times and iirc i recall it not working sometimes), he can cloud mens thoughts to render himself unseen or a variety of effects. Im not sure if DDs radar sense would pick him up but Marc gets wrecked. Shadow would own him due to his weak mental state unless he got some serious help from Knonshu. The best bet would be to fight him in open ground in the daytime so shadow couldnt use his abilities as effectively.

Shadow has high level hypnosis due to his own inherent powers and an artifact ring he picked up later on in the comics, with them combined he can control others.

The shadow's voice paralyzes his enemies, and he can project it great distances. He can also perfectly mimic the sound/voice of anyone he chooses to.

The shadow can also become invisible, effectively becoming a sliver of a shadow even in brought day light.

The shadow can shut down other individuals minds by clouding them, and forcing them to see and experience what he wants them to, even if it's just pure darkness and or nothingness.

The shadow is physiologically immortal, he is hundreds of years old and has never aged, he has above human level strength/speed/durability.

Has complete control over the molecular and chemical makeup of his body

He is a genius that is the world's best detective, and he is able to see what will happen before it does, with the reflexes to match.

He knows what other men want and will do before they do it

Originally posted by Board Walker
Shadow has high level hypnosis due to his own inherent powers and an artifact ring he picked up later on in the comics, with them combined he can control others.

The shadow's voice paralyzes his enemies, and he can project it great distances. He can also perfectly mimic the sound/voice of anyone he chooses to.

The shadow can also become invisible, effectively becoming a sliver of a shadow even in brought day light.

The shadow can shut down other individuals minds by clouding them, and forcing them to see and experience what he wants them to, even if it's just pure darkness and or nothingness.

The shadow is physiologically immortal, he is hundreds of years old and has never aged, he has above human level strength/speed/durability.

Has complete control over the molecular and chemical makeup of his body

He is a genius that is the world's best detective, and he is able to see what will happen before it does, with the reflexes to match.

He knows what other men want and will do before they do it

Isnt some of this hyperbolic tho? He can control some men but not all. His hypnosis isnt infallible. His precog is the same..sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. Its very plot-ish. Do you think his misdirect will work on Matt? Or Marc who sometimes has his god on his side?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Isnt some of this hyperbolic tho? He can control some men but not all. His hypnosis isnt infallible. His precog is the same..sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. Its very plot-ish. Do you think his misdirect will work on Matt? Or Marc who sometimes has his god on his side?

In the comics his hypnosis didn't always work 100% of the time, as in sometimes on the main antagonist of the story arc it would only cloud his thoughts rather than outright control them.

His precog was whatever the writer wanted it to be, sometimes it was a "I have a feeling I should go to this location, ah ha there is the bad guy", while at other times it was more of a "he's going to do x, y, z next, I need to do such and such to counter)".

For the most part the Shadow's entire arsenal of abilities and power were strengthened or weakened to make it a good story, you have to remember that the Shadow was originally an early/mid 1900s radio show, it wasn't until later that it became a comic. Thus it was of an older style of story telling, where all the characters all served to advance a larger plot.

On his good days shadoe solos all 3.

Just to prove the point, in a Green hornet comic he casually beat both GH and Kato.

Originally posted by beatboks
On his good days shadoe solos all 3.

Just to prove the point, in a Green hornet comic he casually beat both GH and Kato. would you honestly put Kato or Green Hornet on the level of Daredevil and Moon knight?

Originally posted by deathslash
would you honestly put Kato or Green Hornet on the level of Daredevil and Moon knight?

GH no, Kato yes. He took out Kato with one strike FFS.

Ohh and that BTW was without using his mind whammy cloud your mind powers

Not to mention his accuracy with guns and aimed weapons rivals Deadshot/Bullseye

Originally posted by beatboks
GH no, Kato yes. He took out Kato with one strike FFS. Originally posted by beatboks
Ohh and that BTW was without using his mind whammy cloud your mind powers

Not to mention his accuracy with guns and aimed weapons rivals Deadshot/Bullseye I can agree that his accuracy is certainly up there, but what has Kato done to put him on the level of two guys that are considered Captain America's piers? Has Kato taken out any super humans, fought any gods, or survived anything that should be impossible for any normal human to survive?

Originally posted by deathslash
I can agree that his accuracy is certainly up there, but what has Kato done to put him on the level of two guys that are considered Captain America's piers? Has Kato taken out any super humans, fought any gods, or survived anything that should be impossible for any normal human to survive?

First I wouldn't class eitjer Matt or Marc as "peers" of Steve. I'm a DD fanboy who argues for Matt in many a tjread and many a board but being able to take a few wins vs Steve and being his peer. I'm the first to argue that Matt can make a fight of it with Steve but Cap should take a SOLID majority.

Kato easily has the skill to be a peer of Matt and Marc.
For one thing if we take composite Kato has matched Dick Grayson who is a peer of them.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23& amp;ved=0ahUKEwiW78uKicrVAhWBWbwKHW_YD14Qxa8BCCUwA
A&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

And lets not forget Shadow toom him out with a single strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393150- shadow+vs+green+hornet+and+his+side+kick+%231+%282
%29.png

Composite Shadow out stealths Batman

http://heroheroinehistory.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/reading-room-batman-shadow-who-knows_25.html?m=1

He can match peak combatants and completely immobilise opponemts with a simgle strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111187624/4228246-grendel+vs.+the+shadow+002-013.jpg

Make you see/percieve (for the sake of Matt) what he wants
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393070-ability+clouds+minds+of++soldier+checking+bag.png

Has even used this to appear to be a painting on the wall so je can attack by suprise
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3532942-ability+clouds+minds+of+asassins.png

Unless plot helps them the Shadow should tool all 3

Originally posted by beatboks
First I wouldn't class eitjer Matt or Marc as "peers" of Steve. I'm a DD fanboy who argues for Matt in many a tjread and many a board but being able to take a few wins vs Steve and being his peer. I'm the first to argue that Matt can make a fight of it with Steve but Cap should take a SOLID majority.

Kato easily has the skill to be a peer of Matt and Marc.
For one thing if we take composite Kato has matched Dick Grayson who is a peer of them.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23& amp;ved=0ahUKEwiW78uKicrVAhWBWbwKHW_YD14Qxa8BCCUwA
A&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

And lets not forget Shadow toom him out with a single strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393150- shadow+vs+green+hornet+and+his+side+kick+%231+%282
%29.png

Composite Shadow out stealths Batman

http://heroheroinehistory.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/reading-room-batman-shadow-who-knows_25.html?m=1

He can match peak combatants and completely immobilise opponemts with a simgle strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111187624/4228246-grendel+vs.+the+shadow+002-013.jpg

Make you see/percieve (for the sake of Matt) what he wants
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393070-ability+clouds+minds+of++soldier+checking+bag.png

Has even used this to appear to be a painting on the wall so je can attack by suprise
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3532942-ability+clouds+minds+of+asassins.png

Unless plot helps them the Shadow should tool all 3

Matt being a peer of Caps isn't up for dispute. He's also a peer of the Shadow.

Originally posted by panthergod
Matt being a peer of Caps isn't up for dispute. He's also a peer of the Shadow.

Keep dreamimg. Steve has won more than half of their encounters and Matt jas only been able to stalemate thoae Steve hasn't won.
Most of which only because Steve let him. For example one instance of Matt dodging a Cap shield thriw Cap states it was a test to see if its really Matt. There's context like that to many of the stalemates.

Originally posted by beatboks
First I wouldn't class eitjer Matt or Marc as "peers" of Steve. I'm a DD fanboy who argues for Matt in many a tjread and many a board but being able to take a few wins vs Steve and being his peer. I'm the first to argue that Matt can make a fight of it with Steve but Cap should take a SOLID majority.

Kato easily has the skill to be a peer of Matt and Marc.
For one thing if we take composite Kato has matched Dick Grayson who is a peer of them.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23& amp;ved=0ahUKEwiW78uKicrVAhWBWbwKHW_YD14Qxa8BCCUwA
A&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

And lets not forget Shadow toom him out with a single strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393150- shadow+vs+green+hornet+and+his+side+kick+%231+%282
%29.png

Composite Shadow out stealths Batman

http://heroheroinehistory.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/reading-room-batman-shadow-who-knows_25.html?m=1

He can match peak combatants and completely immobilise opponemts with a simgle strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111187624/4228246-grendel+vs.+the+shadow+002-013.jpg

Make you see/percieve (for the sake of Matt) what he wants
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393070-ability+clouds+minds+of++soldier+checking+bag.png

Has even used this to appear to be a painting on the wall so je can attack by suprise
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3532942-ability+clouds+minds+of+asassins.png

Unless plot helps them the Shadow should tool all 3

Im gonna play DA and back MK to atleast stalemate Shadow. He wont win tho

Originally posted by beatboks
First I wouldn't class eitjer Matt or Marc as "peers" of Steve. I'm a DD fanboy who argues for Matt in many a tjread and many a board but being able to take a few wins vs Steve and being his peer. I'm the first to argue that Matt can make a fight of it with Steve but Cap should take a SOLID majority.

Kato easily has the skill to be a peer of Matt and Marc.
For one thing if we take composite Kato has matched Dick Grayson who is a peer of them.

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23& amp;ved=0ahUKEwiW78uKicrVAhWBWbwKHW_YD14Qxa8BCCUwA
A&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

And lets not forget Shadow toom him out with a single strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393150- shadow+vs+green+hornet+and+his+side+kick+%231+%282
%29.png

Composite Shadow out stealths Batman

http://heroheroinehistory.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/reading-room-batman-shadow-who-knows_25.html?m=1

He can match peak combatants and completely immobilise opponemts with a simgle strike.
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11118/111187624/4228246-grendel+vs.+the+shadow+002-013.jpg

Make you see/percieve (for the sake of Matt) what he wants
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111131174/3393070-ability+clouds+minds+of++soldier+checking+bag.png

Has even used this to appear to be a painting on the wall so je can attack by suprise
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3532942-ability+clouds+minds+of+asassins.png

Unless plot helps them the Shadow should tool all 3 All of that's well and good, but Matt has still done well against Iron Fist, Tombstone, Elektra, and many others.Also, who said we'd be using composite versions of the characters (not arguing, just asking)? You're also forgetting that Grendel (who doesn't have to feats of Matt or Marc) managed to give the Shadow a more than fair fight. All that without even factoring in Marc, who is a legitimate meta.

Originally posted by deathslash
All of that's well and good, but Matt has still done well against Iron Fist, Tombstone, Elektra, and many others.Also, who said we'd be using composite versions of the characters (not arguing, just asking)? You're also forgetting that Grendel (who doesn't have to feats of Matt or Marc) managed to give the Shadow a more than fair fight. All that without even factoring in Marc, who is a legitimate meta.

Not denying that Matt is one of my 5 gave Marvel characters (Hellstrom, DD, IF, Longshot, and Justice from new Universe in order with Thor, Black knight, devil slayer, Dr Strange, Shaman -from alpha flight rounding out my top 10).

Matt has done well vs Wolverine, soloed an Xman line up (with context) soloed an Avengers line up (with shit loads of PIS - deflecting caps shield that took out IM's jet boot which semt him flyingninti Herc).

Heres the thing DD has basically stalemated IF by never getting hit because of his senses. One of my fav scenes is their first encounter where Danny says "nice move what do you call it" Matt replies "ducking" to which Danny says something like "unconventional mind if I borrow it". Based on their capability Matt should never be ablento beat Danny in a fight. Ues he can avoid but ebentually Matt will tire before Danny and his ability to dodge will reduce with his stamina. He cant compete with Danny for an extended fight because Danny can rejuvinate himself with chi.The same should be the case in a fight with steve. Yes Matt's ability to know where an attack is aimed at or going to strike or determine next moves my heartrate etc allow him to combat Steve's superior speed by at some point hes going ro wear down first.

The Shadow has a similar mystical and eastern thing going for him as Danny's chi and has also been shown to endure (talking dynamite Shadow). The mainstay of most of his fights howeveris his illusions and ability to decieve.

Regards Grendal, are we just forgetting that Hunter Rose's performance vs Batman was worse than vs Shadow?? That's vs a character who IMHO is closer to (though still NOT - despite what the majority believe) a peer of Cap.

Originally posted by beatboks
Not denying that Matt is one of my 5 gave Marvel characters (Hellstrom, DD, IF, Longshot, and Justice from new Universe in order with Thor, Black knight, devil slayer, Dr Strange, Shaman -from alpha flight rounding out my top 10).

Matt has done well vs Wolverine, soloed an Xman line up (with context) soloed an Avengers line up (with shit loads of PIS - deflecting caps shield that took out IM's jet boot which semt him flyingninti Herc).

Heres the thing DD has basically stalemated IF by never getting hit because of his senses. One of my fav scenes is their first encounter where Danny says "nice move what do you call it" Matt replies "ducking" to which Danny says something like "unconventional mind if I borrow it". Based on their capability Matt should never be ablento beat Danny in a fight. Ues he can avoid but ebentually Matt will tire before Danny and his ability to dodge will reduce with his stamina. He cant compete with Danny for an extended fight because Danny can rejuvinate himself with chi.The same should be the case in a fight with steve. Yes Matt's ability to know where an attack is aimed at or going to strike or determine next moves my heartrate etc allow him to combat Steve's superior speed by at some point hes going ro wear down first.

The Shadow has a similar mystical and eastern thing going for him as Danny's chi and has also been shown to endure (talking dynamite Shadow). The mainstay of most of his fights howeveris his illusions and ability to decieve.

Regards Grendal, are we just forgetting that Hunter Rose's performance vs Batman was worse than vs Shadow?? That's vs a character who IMHO is closer to (though still NOT - despite what the majority believe) a peer of Cap. the question here is whether the Shadow (who I can't really recall fighting anyone with enhanced perception like Matt's) can decieve Daredevil.

1. Grendel had extensively studied Batman and knew what and who he was fighting.

2. Grendel didn't have that sort of prep with the shadow.

3. Grendel's last fight against the Shadow (while he was injured even) was far better than his first random encounter.

Keep in mind, there was definitely context if you want to compare BatmanVGrendel to GrendelVShadow.

Originally posted by deathslash
the question here is whether the Shadow (who I can't really recall fighting anyone with enhanced perception like Matt's) can decieve Daredevil.

1. Grendel had extensively studied Batman and knew what and who he was fighting.

2. Grendel didn't have that sort of prep with the shadow.

3. Grendel's last fight against the Shadow (while he was injured even) was far better than his first random encounter.

Keep in mind, there was definitely context if you want to compare BatmanVGrendel to GrendelVShadow.

Yes there's context just like there is with Matt vs IF and Cap.

I don't see how senses have any bearing on Cranston's ability to decieve. After all its not the actual senses being fouled but the minds perception of them. Cransron's power is in his voice, at least that is how its always portrayed what with thw dark coloured speach balloons when he's bending someone ti his will. If anything rhat should make Matt more susceptible not less with his enhance hesring..

Remove shadow's ability to cloud minds and make illusions and the pairinga become much closer probably leaning toward team 2. In H2h skill Cranston on showings is marginally behind the others made up for with things like his reaction speed. Though even the reaction speed is part due to his mental powers and virtual precog (and I'm not sure if removing thw clouding of minds slao rakes that).

I see this as going thw same way it would wirh rhat team vs Phantomex for much tue same reason.

Originally posted by beatboks


I see this as going thw same way it would wirh rhat team vs Phantomex for much tue same reason.

Mind clouding isnt THAT hax