Dark Empire: Luke vs. Palpatine

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The Merchant
Whenever this topic is brought up, it's usually said by someone that Luke defeated Palpatine via the help of Leia, which is partially true. She did bond with Luke to cut off Palpatine powering his Force Storm and used Force Harmony on him.

However, people also say Leia empowered Luke during the Lightsaber duel before that Force Storm fiasco, which allowed Luke to cut Palps hand off. Where is the evidence that actually indicates that she empowered Luke during the dueling portion? In the comic there really isn't anything to suggest she bonded her power with him, the closest thing is when Luke asks her to bond with him says says "I already am" however that isn't solid since her phrasing it that way suggests she was in the process of bonding with him, not that she has bonded with him since the beginning or else she would said "I already have"

To support the idea that she didn't Force Bond with Luke, in the audiobook, skip to 2:25:40

K_AH2tTiLgQ

During the duel, we see Leias point of view and this is what she says:

"They're both moving so fast I can hardly see them, I feel waves of power, the Dark side and the Light. But, I feel, the Light, is winning!"

Leia is actually surprised that "The Light" AKA Luke is winning and ofc Luke eventually does, slicing his hand off. She makes no indication she was giving her his power. Shortly after, when Palpatine unleashes his Force Storm in the Audiobook, Leia realizes that the Great Holocrons prophecy meant that she had to lend her power to Luke and join their powers together, indicating she wasn't doing that beforehand.

Not to mention no other source such as a guide that talks about the duel ever mentions Leia lended her power to Luke during the dueling portion, only during the Force Storm portion.

I could have obviously overlooked something, and if there's evidence that indicates Leia amped Luke during the dueling portion then please post. If not, DE Luke is seriously underestimated then and so is his later incarnations.

Azronger
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11117/111178634/5525615-severs+palpatine+of+the+force+1.jpg

As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke indicates that she had already been unlocking his potential before she joined in the Force Harmony. Besides, if Luke was truly Palpatine+ level at this point, then he would not be struggling with the likes of Sedriss.

UCanShootMyNova
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One of the few times I've agreed with Azronger.

ares834
Originally posted by Azronger
As Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke indicates that she had already been unlocking his potential before she joined in the Force Harmony. Besides, if Luke was truly Palpatine+ level at this point, then he would not be struggling with the likes of Sedriss.

"Continues" does not give a specific time for when Leia began joined her power with his. She could have started a mere panel before. As The Merchant's post shows, she clearly had not begun to join her power to his until after the duel.

MythLord
Empire's End confirms she was using Battle Meditation to aid Luke during his fight with Palpatine... Why is this still so hard for people to accept?

ares834
Except it doesn't. Once again, no time frame is given. The audio drama makes confirms she wasn't helping Luke during the duel.

thesithmaster
Originally posted by MythLord
Empire's End confirms she was using Battle Meditation to aid Luke during his fight with Palpatine... Why is this still so hard for people to accept?

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Without the amp, Luke was humiliated by a toying Palpatine. DE Palpatine >>> DE Luke.

ares834
On a massive dark side nexus. Palpatine even taunts him in the drama saying, "Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to this. To the very heart of the dark side."

thesithmaster
Originally posted by ares834
On a massive dark side nexus. Palpatine even taunts him in the drama saying, "Did you think you could conquer me by coming here to this. To the very heart of the dark side."

On a massive Dark Side nexus where Palpatine confirmed that Luke was using the new powers Palpatine taught him (Dark Side powers) and when Palpatine had just transferred his essence to a new clone body, meaning he had to fight as soon as he transferred his essenc into a new body.

Palpatine's feats are also miles ahead of Luke. All the evidence points to DE Palpatine>>>>>>>DE Luke.

ares834
Yes. Dark side powers he just began to use and was still a novice at.

Except losing to Luke in a duel. Yes, Palpatine is still more powerful at the time, I'll not disagree with that. But Luke is the superior duelist.

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by ares834
Except it doesn't. Once again, no time frame is given. The audio drama makes confirms she wasn't helping Luke during the duel.



It's less clear than in the comics but I'd say there's certainly evidence that Leia actually helped Luke.

ares834
Yes. She helps him break free from the dark side. That's it. They then actually join after the duel to cut off Palpatine from his storm.

TenebrousWay
No, no. It's just before the duel. Leia says that in the audiobook in the same moment she gains that aura in the comics.

ares834
Yeah, I edited my post. However, she doesn't actually join with him yet (as we see shortly afterwards). She doesn't realize what to do until after the duel. If anything, it's more of a teaching moment with her reminding Luke that the force connects everything.

TenebrousWay
Yep, I noticed. smile

I think it's pretty unclear considering the situation in the audiobook and the comics. You have a point considering Leia view herself as a third party during their duel and later when she tells Luke "Let me add my power to yours", which can be interpretated that she didn't before. In the comics she confirms she joined Luke against Palpatine.

Beniboybling
The audio supports her Force bonding with him as well. Whereas lending her powers to Luke does not preclude her being surprised at him winning, nor being able to track their fighting. Weak argument. sad

MythLord
Originally posted by ares834
Except it doesn't. Once again, no time frame is given. The audio drama makes confirms she wasn't helping Luke during the duel.

It does. Vima-Da-Booda says she was using Battle Meditation to aid her brother in defeating the Emperor. I imagine that's what it is referring to, given what they do afterwards is a Force Bond/Harmony thing.

Rockydonovang
if we go by the audio book, luke doesn't come close to blitzing sids as he does in the comic

Rockydonovang
also luke recognizes that de palps can't control the amount of power he's unleashing

TenebrousWay
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
also luke recognizes that de palps can't control the amount of power he's unleashing

That's recognized in comics as well.

By the way, there's a potentially good feat for Ood Bnar to add for his respect thread Wollf: He apparently shields a sappling from his sacrifical explosion and potentially infuses it with part of his life energy/power.

Rockydonovang
sedriss=ood bnar=supernova smile

TenebrousWay
So both of them are sub Maul. thumb up

Rockydonovang
who's sub vader, kenobi, and ahsoka yes

MythLord
Who are all sub-Malgus in-canon. smile

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
also luke recognizes that de palps can't control the amount of power he's unleashing

Yes he can. That's just Luke blabbing nonsense.

"It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was not only able to control these storms, but to create them."

Handbook Volume 3: Dark Empire

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
who's sub ahsoka yes

laughing out loud

ares834
Originally posted by MythLord
It does. Vima-Da-Booda says she was using Battle Meditation to aid her brother in defeating the Emperor. I imagine that's what it is referring to, given what they do afterwards is a Force Bond/Harmony thing.

So like I claimed, it does not as no time frame is given. Considering she uses BM immediately after Vima mentions it to knock Palpatine on his ass, I'm not inclined to agree. The comics use of BM is far more flexible then usual.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yes he can. That's just Luke blabbing nonsense.

"It was to the Rebel Alliance's detriment that Emperor Palpatine was not only able to control these storms, but to create them."

Handbook Volume 3: Dark Empire
which doesn't mean he was in control of that specific storm

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by MythLord
Who are all sub-Malgus in-canon. smile malgus doesn't exist in canon tho, he auto loses by virtue of not existing

thesithmaster
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
which doesn't mean he was in control of that specific storm

He was. Luke and Leia simply turned the storm against him. Palpatine can canonically control his Force Storms. What Luke says is irrelevant.

Rockydonovang
I mean, he'd jus got his arm cut off, was coming off as desperate, he doesn't have to not be able to control storms to not be in control of that specific storm as there are reasons for him to be out of control there

Azronger
Do you have anything to support your statement that he wasn't in control of his Storm other than baseless speculation? The rule is that Palpatine can control his storms, and there's no reason to believe that Storm was an exception to the rule, especially when it did exactly what Palpatine wanted it to.

TenebrousWay
Sidious lost control of the storm because Luke and Leia affected his connection with the force.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
Do you have anything to support your statement that he wasn't in control of his Storm other than baseless speculation? The rule is that Palpatine can control his storms, and there's no reason to believe that Storm was an exception to the rule, especially when it did exactly what Palpatine wanted it to.
well, there's luke saying he wasn't able to control this one, and then there's this being his last resort rather than something he's doing right off the bat

UCanShootMyNova
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thesithmaster
Originally posted by Azronger
Do you have anything to support your statement that he wasn't in control of his Storm other than baseless speculation? The rule is that Palpatine can control his storms, and there's no reason to believe that Storm was an exception to the rule, especially when it did exactly what Palpatine wanted it to.

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Azronger
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
well, there's luke saying he wasn't able to control this one, and then there's this being his last resort rather than something he's doing right off the bat

Luke's statement was based off of a scripture Palpatine wrote prior to Return of the Jedi, where he states he can't control Storms at all, so in other words, Luke's information is outdated, as is rather apparent from the fact that Palpatine himself states he can control them, an objective statement says he can control them, and the Storm in question did exactly what Palpatine wanted it to do (until his connection to it was severed).

Palpatine had plenty of Force abilities he could've used to annihilate Luke and Leia before unleashing a Storm, yet didn't, so it's far from being a "last resort". What even is this argument?

MythLord
Originally posted by ares834
So like I claimed, it does not as no time frame is given. Considering she uses BM immediately after Vima mentions it to knock Palpatine on his ass, I'm not inclined to agree. The comics use of BM is far more flexible then usual.

There's no other time she could've used Battle Meditation. What they did after the fight is confirmed to be Force Harmony. She could've only used Battle Meditation during the fight.

Rockydonovang
Originally posted by Azronger
Luke's statement was based off of a scripture Palpatine wrote prior to Return of the Jedi, where he states he can't control Storms at all, so in other words, Luke's information is outdated, as is rather apparent from the fact that Palpatine himself states he can control them, an objective statement says he can control them, and the Storm in question did exactly what Palpatine wanted it to do (until his connection to it was severed).

Palpatine had plenty of Force abilities he could've used to annihilate Luke and Leia before unleashing a Storm, yet didn't, so it's far from being a "last resort". What even is this argument?
I never disputed that he could control force storms in general, but the way the audionovel sets it up makes me think that specific force storm was more of a, I'll take everyone down with me thing, mainly because he knew he could survive his body getting rekt

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