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The Asgardian Enchantress takes on the Juggernaut in all-out battle when she hears Juggs refer to Thor a 'sissy'.

If he gets his hands on her, she's dead. But that's a pretty big IF. She wins via BFR.

OK, so no BFR or prep to make it interesting, because she probably does have the ability to BFR.

Originally posted by basilisk
OK, so no BFR or prep to make it interesting, because she probably does have the ability to BFR.
Well with PIS/CIS off, there's nothing she can do that will hurt him. He's laughed off THor's lightening and was completely unharmed by a Godblast (even though it was slowly pushing him back, before he had a chance to challenge it more, the ground gave way under his feet).

Mental attacks will also fail since she would have to remove his helmet for them to work on him and if she gets close, she dies.

Does she not have TK to remove the helmet?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Does she not have TK to remove the helmet?
Has it ever been removed by TK on panel? It usually involves someone cutting the part of the helmet that's connecting it to the rest of his armor (which is PIS since he's surrounded by a force field).

she might be able to transmute the helmet too though that may be less likely than using tk to remove it. there isn't likely a reason she couldn't pull the helmet off with tk. her best bet is a simple love spell. i don't see a reason why that wouldn't work. it's not a physical attack, nor is it typical tp so his invulnerability shouldn't save him from simply bowing down and worshiping her. /shrug

i wonder if she is capable of replicating what thor did and just blocking his magic to make him vulnerable to a host of spells....

she has options. the only way she loses is if he gets a hold of her. she could stay away from him at least nearly indefinitely via intangible or teleporting.

Was the following a long-lasting and/or permanent change?
Amora is a lot more capable in physical combat than most people probably think if it was, especially considering that even at HALF power Valkyrie, which was originally Amora in disguise, managed to physically put Hulk down.

The encounter here, by the way, apparently actually left Monet dead:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244542_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244543_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244544_image.jpg


At least if the following is to be believed:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244545_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244546_image.jpg

that scene has always been weird and was never fully explained afaik. monet HAD died previously and been resurrected, but i don't know if amora killed her in that first scene. amora is pretty tough physically, but M did return and kick her a$$ at the end of the arc, even breaking her bones. it was a blitz, but i had the sense monet was the superior one physically the second time around. anyway, amora did retain her full power afterward--at least until the reboot. currently, i don't know how she compares with her classic self, but if she's like everyone else, there probably hasn't been much of a change. /shrug

I skimmed a few of those issues online before. If memory serves, Amora was more than merely blitzed, she was blindsided; she didn't see it coming.

I recall something similar happening to She-Hulk versus Drax, in a story where it was made explicit that She-Hulk was stronger than that version of Drax, and stronger by far. Yet a single unexpected dive bomb or similar maneuver, catching She-Hulk when she was unaware Drax was returning to the fight, knocked She-Hulk out, and may have, since this story also involved resurrection, actually killed She-Hulk.

For the 2nd, all narration leads me to believe that Enchantress was the one that killed Monet, including what Monet herself says following her resurrection.

I don't remember how she was ressurected, though. I seem to remember Gabriel helping to bring her back, but Monet has a healing factor and a LOT of unexplained phenomena involved with her physiology (Emplate, twin-substitution, Penance, potential secondary and tertiary mutations, etcetera).

Perhaps her link with Rachel helped her hold on? Come back from the threshold?
Found someone else posted an additional pic of their fight than what I earlier gave, here in the following thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t613479.html

I don't know what reboots affect what now anymore, but, for the record, the reason I was asking if Amora's restoration was permanent is because ALL other strength showings from her before her fight with Monet were implied to have been performed by her at only HALF power, because she was under a curse placed on her by Odin before then.

That would have significant implications for how a fight between her and Juggernaut would now go, if what everyone THOUGHT was her standard level of physical strength and magic ability was only 50% of where she's actually at, and demonstrates only half of what she can do:

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Though she is now best known as a hero on Marvel Comics' "Defenders" team, the Valkyrie was originally a guise of the Thor villain Enchantress:

https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/34930909_image.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/34930910_image.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/34930911_image.jpg

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Was the following a long-lasting and/or permanent change?
Amora is a lot more capable in physical combat than most people probably think if it was, especially considering that even at HALF power Valkyrie, which was originally Amora in disguise, managed to physically put Hulk down.

The encounter here, by the way, apparently actually left Monet dead:

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244542_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244543_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35244544_image.jpg

Seriously? Do you not see Monet being distracted by another opponent giving Amora time to get behind her and put her in a choke hold? Just like IRL, once you've exposed your neck and are in a choke, you are PHUCKED.

Originally posted by leonidas
that scene has always been weird and was never fully explained afaik. monet HAD died previously and been resurrected, but i don't know if amora killed her in that first scene. amora is pretty tough physically, but M did return and kick her a$$ at the end of the arc, even breaking her bones. it was a blitz, but i had the sense monet was the superior one physically the second time around. anyway, amora did retain her full power afterward--at least until the reboot. currently, i don't know how she compares with her classic self, but if she's like everyone else, there probably hasn't been much of a change. /shrug
Monet broke Enchantress' bones in the rematch? Scans?

Originally posted by zopzop
Seriously? Do you not see Monet being distracted by another opponent giving Amora time to get behind her and put her in a choke hold? Just like IRL, once you've exposed your neck and are in a choke, you are PHUCKED.


Monet broke Enchantress' bones in the rematch? Scans?
http://s13.postimg.org/6i510znsz/Monet_Surprise_Attack.jpghttp://s13.postimg.org/kfn76alvn/Monet_Surprise_Attack2.jpghttps://s10.postimg.org/w1dlv0mkl/009.jpg

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=613285&pagenumber=1

We had a debate about the incident here. Suffice it to say, neither Amora nor Monet really had a complete "fair" fight. I'd advise against folks reading too much into it.

oh i def agree that neither fight was truly indicative of how a fair meeting between them might go, but in that second fight it felt to me like the author was saying monet>amora, at least on a physical level. still not sure why amora couldn't just cast a spell, even if she was hurt, but, like i said, that was just my sense of the meeting.

regardless, i don't think amora would be wanting to mix it up with juggs. nothing good is coming from that for her, nor is it really her style.

as for her apparent death: again, not convinced it happened, though the narration is certainly suggestive. there was certainly never any 'resurrection' scene at all. this is the scene when gabriel finds her:

https://imgur.com/a/mGPMg

all he does is ask her to wake up. /shrug

there is also nothing written anywhere about her dying at amora's hands so...i dunno. you'd think if she died there would be...'more' to it? she did die previously, as style's scan alludes to, but she doesn't reference amora killing her, as you'd think she would in this case. she also told gabriel amora took her down hard, not that she killed her. it's open to interpretation i suppose, but more support falls on the side of her not dying imo, so that's the side i fall on.

as for monet vs amora: i think it would be a very good fight if both knew the other was coming, but hard to see monet countering amora's magic in most cases, at least imo.

oh ffs, i hate you right now style. you posted that &^%$%$# link and based on the views being expressed there, it ALMOST seems like i'm sorta/kinda/at least on the same planet as....bav.

*&^% me. i am clearly wrong in regards to everything i posted in this thread and have just as clearly utterly wtfpwned myself.

Blue Area Vet usually argues a whole lot better than he did in that thread.


Amora must have used magic against Monet because Monet referred to Amora as a magic user? That would work if The Enchantress were some unknown perp to the X-Men, but nearly every hero group in Marvel U knows who she is and what she's capable of in terms of sorcery.

Most of the people in Marvel Universe DON'T often seem to consider that Amora is super-strong, however. Apparently Monet didn't, either.

Juggernaut even with his force field is susceptible to attacks Amora can replicate.
Witness an encounter with the X-Men (some scans missing) during the Claremont days:


https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968726_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968727_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968728_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968729_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968730_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968731_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968732_image.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
oh ffs, i hate you right now style. you posted that &^%$%$# link and based on the views being expressed there, it ALMOST seems like i'm sorta/kinda/at least on the same planet as....bav.

*&^% me. i am clearly wrong in regards to everything i posted in this thread and have just as clearly utterly wtfpwned myself.


I've lightened my stance on it a little since then, but yeah, I definitely can't sign off on most of what BAV said.

lol he's been on ignore forever, so i was just going by what i saw quoted and, as is the norm, his reasoning made no sense. like i said, i think it could be a good match up if the 2 of them went at it full on, but amora's magic is a tough counter more often than not.

as for this fight, the only ending i can see is juggs proclaiming his undying love for amora...

The thing is though, Cyttorak clearly wants to protect his avatar from mind control and having his powers used in the service of others, hence the provision of Juggs with a protective helmet (side note: never mind the obvious design flaw of why do it through a helmet that can be removed and not something innate, that's a plot device more than anything, and may be changed in more recent appearances anywat, not sure about that one).

Now Amora's power is another type of mind control, so it's probably something Cyttorak doesn't want happening - why protect against just one form of mind control and not magical control. Cyttorak is magical after all. And Juggs power also protects him against a hell of a lot of magic attacks, though he can be affected by high end stuff. So I don't think it's a given that the love power would work. There are some characters she has said she can't directly influence, while others like Quasar had defensive mechanisms that eventually snapped him out of it. I guess success here depends on what level you think her spells are at.

.

Minded to have a page with ordered scans that layout the case for Amora.
Gluey, so not gonna bother with outline or stated formal structure.
Just gonna muddle on through.


https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/34930910_image.jpg https://s6d3.turboimg.net/t1/34930911_image.jpg

Amora empowered a young lady named Samantha Parrington to become the 2nd Valkyrie. She defeats the Incredible Hulk, a being known for being physically stronger than Juggernaut (though not as durable), with little more than a squeeze of his neck (pressure point maneuver).
This renders the Hulk completely unconscious, as Amora herself looks on:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35985333_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35985334_image.jpg

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35985335_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35985336_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35985337_image.jpg

Note that Amora has the power to render Hulk unconscious, and worse, completely without physical contact, and did so before the Parrington episode:


https://s7d5.turboimg.net/t1/35985433_image.jpg


Source: Incredible Hulk #102
Cover Date: April 1968
Sale Date: January 9th, 1968
Writer: Gary Friedrich
Artist: Marie Severin
Inker: George Tuska
Letterer: Artie Simek
Colorist: Uncredited

So Enchantress can and has defeated Hulk with physical force and with spells.

In Secret Wars we see Hulk defeated in yet one more fashion, and this last reflective of what seems to be a generic power over virtually any heterosexual male:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35985435_image.jpg

The showing with Parrington is the most intriguing entry to me.
It suggests that Amora can, with scarcely more than a touch, knock out someone in Hulk's class.

In which case the main difficulty is dealing with Juggy's force field and/or his helmet. Let's look at the high end of helmet removal, as we saw Longshot, armed only with what looks like some throwing knives, giving us a relatively low-end example:


https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35985984_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35985985_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35985986_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35985987_image.jpg

Source: Uncanny X-Men #541, Volume 1

Note how easy it is even for Thor to divine the Juggernaut's power is magical in nature. Note the ease with which he thwarts Jug's invulnerability by setting up an interference barrier. Note that Jug is, at best, of roughly Hulk-level durability after the maneuver.


https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35988574_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35988575_image.jpg https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35988576_image.jpg


Source: Thor #429, Volume 1
Writer: Tom DeFalco
Penciller: Ron Frenz
Date: February 1991

Juggs is not Hulk though. Hulk is a human mutated by gamma energy, while Juggs is magical and still empowered by magic even when his force field is turned off/nullified. They are very different beings. Back in the days of those Valkyrie scans Hulk was knocked out by gas plenty of times too, while Juggs was immune to it. Back then Hulk suffered from fatigue and needed to rest or was even reduced back to Banner by heavy exertions, while Juggs being magical didn't tire. Hulk needed air, food, and water while Juggs didn't. Hulk was restrained by the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, while Juggs was empowered by Cytorrak. And so on. A lot has changed since those days of course, but Hulk's showings back then probably aren't the best comparison.

And maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments - maybe not. After all the same hammer has blocked her own attacks and I don't think she was capable of lifting it herself, so at least in some ways its enchantments exceeded her own in power. Again, lots has changed with Mjolnir since then, but even so...

Originally posted by basilisk
Juggs is not Hulk though. Hulk is a human mutated by gamma energy, while Juggs is magical and still empowered by magic even when his force field is turned off/nullified. They are very different beings. Back in the days of those Valkyrie scans Hulk was knocked out by gas plenty of times too, while Juggs was immune to it. Back then Hulk suffered from fatigue and needed to rest or was even reduced back to Banner by heavy exertions, while Juggs being magical didn't tire. Hulk needed air, food, and water while Juggs didn't. Hulk was restrained by the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, while Juggs was empowered by Cytorrak. And so on. A lot has changed since those days of course, but Hulk's showings back then probably aren't the best comparison.

And maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments - maybe not. After all the same hammer has blocked her own attacks and I don't think she was capable of lifting it herself, so at least in some ways its enchantments exceeded her own in power. Again, lots has changed with Mjolnir since then, but even so...

Originally posted by leonidas
lol he's been on ignore forever, so i was just going by what i saw quoted and, as is the norm, his reasoning made no sense. like i said, i think it could be a good match up if the 2 of them went at it full on, but amora's magic is a tough counter more often than not.

as for this fight, the only ending i can see is juggs proclaiming his undying love for amora...
Oh, I agree. If Amora starts spell-slinging, Monet goes down.

Agreed with most of the scans, with the possible exception of Longshot and his knives.

Sure, they're *just* knives, but he's got luck on his side. Incredible amounts of it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed with most of the scans, with the possible exception of Longshot and his knives.

Sure, they're *just* knives, but he's got luck on his side.
Incredible amounts of it.



You're right, Longshot DOES have a far better chance than a normal man, or even a "normal" mutant, given that probability field of his.

Fact, I recall some reviewer admiring the extraordinary levels of physical power, compassion, and strategic thinking displayed by Rogue in this issue, long, long before she would eventually be chosen as one of the "official" leaders of the X-Men. Note that before trusting herself to the attempt at train-stoppage here, Rogue wisely makes Longshot a passenger on that same train to protect the other riders:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968729_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968730_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35968731_image.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed with most of the scans, with the possible exception of Longshot and his knives.

Sure, they're *just* knives, but he's got luck on his side. Incredible amounts of it.


Having said the above, I need to say I do not, for even six seconds, believe Enchantress would find herself thwarted if she made removing Juggernaut's helmet a personal goal of hers.

I DON'T see anyway Longshot with any amount of cutlery could top what Amora shows us here, for instance:

https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35997155_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35997156_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35997157_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35997158_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35997159_image.jpg https://s7d6.turboimg.net/t1/35997160_image.jpg

Source: Thor #452, Volume 1
Year: 1992

(By the way, can any longtime Thor fan tell me why in the world Odin would be working with enemies AGAINST Thor in this arc? What am I missing here?)

Originally posted by basilisk


... maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments - maybe not. After all the same hammer has blocked her own attacks and I don't think she was capable of lifting it herself, so at least in some ways its enchantments exceeded her own in power. Again, lots has changed with Mjolnir since then, but even so...

Lateness of the hour might be affecting me; I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering when in the world the Fantastic Four (FF) ever went up against Juggernaut OR Odin in all their comic history ...

Admittedly, retcons DO make it difficult to argue this type of discussion with even the illusion more "grounded" comic works have. What to make of the following, for instance:



https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35997322_image.jpg

Versus...


https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35997323_image.jpg

Originally posted by basilisk


... maybe an Asgardian Enchantress who is considerably less powerful than Odin and specialized in love magic can replicate the FF nullifying trick of a incredibly powerful weapon powered by Odin's enchantments ...


It's probably worth noting that Asgardian can cancel Asgardian when it comes to spells. In Dazzler #16, for instance, an Asgardian Vizier dispels the enchantment Amora used to make Allison helpless and commands they have a trial by combat. He does this quite without the initial permission of the Enchantress.

As for Odin, it might be worth pointing out that Amora's ability to "enchant" unwitting admirers seems to extend even to him, as alluded to in Amora's LATER "duel" with Allison:

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984331_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984332_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984333_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984334_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984335_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984336_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984337_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984338_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984339_image.jpg https://s7d8.turboimg.net/t1/35984340_image.jpg

Source: Dazzler #16, Volume 1

While on the subject of Amora's signature ability, it might be worthwhile to note the speed at which she can ensnare someone. Thor, even knowing what she is capable of falls in an early adventure, and is nearly completely hers when she follows up on that initial cast:


https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997442_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997443_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997444_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997445_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997446_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997447_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997448_image.jpg

Source: Avengers #7, Volume 1
(Note: Only a small percentage of the full story is shown here.)

I wrote the following earlier in another thread.

Including it NOT to suggest Amora is going to have success in an actual brawl, rather to suggest she probably has "surprise" options if she gets caught, cornered, grabbed, etcetera.

Marvel opponents ALWAYS seem surprised when Amora demonstrates her physicality. I doubt Juggernaut would be any different, and such could save her life ...



Amora is a LOT stronger than the average reader, and perhaps even the average Marvel character, realizes.


For instance, here is a good showing for how strong the Spider-Man villain, Lizard, was:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35236633_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35236634_image.jpg

... but, despite Liz catching her completely off-guard and dealing a vicious, potentially debilitating injury to her face, this is how easily Amora deals with him, through a combination of her strength and magic skill:

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35236635_image.jpg https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/35236636_image.jpg

Thought of an interesting point for the Juggernaut side that I do not think will be brought up if I don't bring it up, so:


Juggernaut has demonstrated some limited ability to use spells.


It is not something he ordinarily does. It is not, from my understanding, anything he has done in over 20 years. But it IS something that has seen print, and might offer something to a discussion that otherwise seems fairly one-sided to me in favor of the Enchantress. Interestingly enough, it ALSO occurs against Nightmare, who I showed battling Amora a few posts ago, even as Jug has 1 other case I know of magic use, where he utilizes some kind of globules magic missiles against the X-Men:




https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997589_image.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t1/35997590_image.jpg

I initially came across the above in the following thread, featuring a very good scenario discussion of how Juggernaut might fare in a battle of bricks:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=602252&pagenumber=1

Unfortunately, most of those scans of Jug's esoteric abilities seem to have erased themselves. Perhaps someone knowledgable can supply the reference info when time permits.

Anyway, I have no qualms granting Jug that ability.

Even at half power, Enchantress demonstrates arguably the most deus ex machina ability of all -- history-changing time travel!


This story is a lot of fun.

Immortus, Executioner, Goliath, and ... Paul Bunyan!?

Longtime comic readers should be able to follow the villain's introduction, proving his credentials, offer of plan, switch to heroes as target, conflict, turnaround, etcetera ...

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35997715_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35997716_image.jpg

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35997717_image.jpg

https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35997718_image.jpg https://s7d7.turboimg.net/t1/35997719_image.jpg



Source: Avengers #10
Circa: 1966

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Lateness of the hour might be affecting me; I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering when in the world the Fantastic Four (FF) ever went up against Juggernaut OR Odin in all their comic history ...

Admittedly, retcons DO make it difficult to argue this type of discussion with even the illusion more "grounded" comic works have. What to make of the following, for instance:



https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35997322_image.jpg

Versus...


https://s7d4.turboimg.net/t1/35997323_image.jpg

FF in his post meant force field.... human torch fought juggs with the x-men YEARS ago, he used his flame to stagger juggs.

This, leo?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/2b/58/db/2b58db52c09bc95f32a0aa4a249fe2eb--human-torch-juggernaut.jpg

close. same book, but this one:

https://imgur.com/a/x1chw

it's like his flame trick stunned him somehow or something. /shrug

Blinded him, I see. Similar to Krillin's Solar Flare technique