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And that Question is.

Do you hope that you are Right, or Wrong?

Thoughts?

Right or wrong about what exactly? State your question more clearly, my green-fonted friend.

If there is an AFTERLIFE or not.

I would have thought that would have been rather OBVIOUS hence that kind of being the ULTIMATE Question for an Atheist.

Well, I hope that when we die we can eat nothing but pork loin ribs and watermelon and f#ck Victoria Secret supermodels, but that doesn't make it likely.

SO then you HOPE for Some thing while at the same time you feel to need to ridicule those with a belief for something along the same lines?

Except I'm being facetious and know it's ridiculous. I said it wasn't likely.

Ahh I see, I see.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Well, I hope that when we die we can eat nothing but pork loin ribs and watermelon and f#ck Victoria Secret supermodels, but that doesn't make it likely.

Exactly, hope there's something sure, but I don't really expect it.

Belief in the afterlife of a paradise where everyone who obeyed this/that rule gets to go and exist happily ever after and those that didn't get anally raped in a fire pit for all eternity is little more than Santa Claus, Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy tales for the masses.

edit: I'm also not an Atheist too boot, but I don't think you need to be to see through obvious (imo) man-made fairy tales. Talking snakes, magical gardens, human-gods, transmutations, flying to heaven on a winged horse, god speaking to people etc., all fantasy stories.

Nice to see you put it out there clearly. It explains so much about your other "Beliefs".

Originally posted by Robtard
edit: I'm also not an Atheist too boot, but I don't think you need to be to see through obvious (imo) man-made fairy tales. Talking snakes, magical gardens, human-gods, transmutations, flying to heaven on a winged horse, god speaking to people etc., all fantasy stories.

I didn't want to call myself an atheist for a long time, either. And I still wish I didn't have to, because I think in a truly rational world it wouldn't be necessary, but it is necessary politically now, because it's an easy and effective way to separate yourself from the fairy-tale-believing religious folk that you speak of. Given as much as we now know about the natural world through science it just simply isn't tenable anymore to believe in extra-dimensional supernatural beings (who are oddly similarly flawed like humans). And if you do, you have to admit the lack of relevance that such a being has on the here and now. So if God exists, (s)he is irrelevant because all we have is our brains and our collaboration (or lack thereof).

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
, but it is necessary politically now,


That is a pretty ugly view of things.



I approve.

If we're talking eternal bliss then of course I'd pick that over nothingness, so I guess I hope that I am wrong. That said, i do NOT hope for the christian or muslim versions of afterlife. I am going to hell according to both, which would be fine as long as I deserved it for being a bad person. But if I dont make it to heaven for not being christian/muslim enough or for "rejecting" Jesus/Allah type sh!t, then they can both go F themselves because it is not the type of heaven I'd like to go to, and I hope that it doesn't exist.

You don't go to hell just for not being Christian in christianity.

No idea of how it goes in Islam.

I culd be wrong. But I was told on more than one occasion by Christians that I have to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and saivor or else I'll go to hell.

Originally posted by SamZED
I culd be wrong. But I was told on more than one occasion by Christians that I have to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and saivor or else I'll go to hell.

There is all kind of bs people calling themselves christians (or muslims, or any religion/practice really).

Originally posted by Bentley
There is all kind of bs people calling themselves christians (or muslims, or any religion/practice really). I know, but that doesn't mean everything they say is bs. I am pretty sure that it is the case in Islam that non believers go to hell. Now I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on either religion, but a quick google search gave me this:

Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..

And I'd like to stress that I have no idea if this verse is still relevant/accepted by Christians or even if it means what I think it means and if there are 8 others that condrodict this one etc... (and if so then please do correct me) but if it means what I think it means then it is exactly what I meant when I said that one can go to hell for not being Christian enough. In this case for not believing or being baptized.

Originally posted by SamZED
I know, but that doesn't mean everything they say is bs. I am pretty sure that it is the case in Islam that non believers go to hell. Now I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on either religion, but a quick google search gave me this:

Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..

And I'd like to stress that I have no idea if this verse is still relevant/accepted by Christians or even if it means what I think it means and if there are 8 others that condrodict this one etc... (and if so then please do correct me) but if it means what I think it means then it is exactly what I meant when I said that one can go to hell for not being Christian enough. In this case for not believing or being baptized.

The problem with that interpretation is that the teological implications actually shrink the sacrifice of Christ. If you couldn't have found the Church during your lifetime, then you would be de facto condeemed to Hell, which would make Christ's Death a "partial" salvation, not available for every human being.

So to get around that problem most christian denominations assume that people can find Christ's grace outside the Church even if it's always more desirable to become a member of whichever christian beliefs they practice.

Originally posted by Bentley
You don't go to hell just for not being Christian in christianity.

False. You do indeed.


Originally posted by SamZED
I culd be wrong. But I was told on more than one occasion by Christians that I have to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and saivor or else I'll go to hell.
This is correct. I live in the southern Unites States. This is an all-too common belief. My dad is a fundamental Christian.

Really depends on the interpenetration, but accepting Jesus as being the only way to reach God and thereby heaven is kinda the crux of most (all?) Judeo-Christian based religions.

John John 3:16 often being quoted in this regards: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." It's the one you see most often people holding up on a piece of cardboard at rallies, sports games, conventions etc. Saw at least one person holding it up at Comic Con in San Francisco earlier this year. Even got in on the bottom on an In-N-Out Burger drink cup.

John 14:6 is another favorite that supports the belief in Jesus as savior = ticket to heaven: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

I can't say I hope the biblical God exists. Who wants an abomination deciding where you go after you die?

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
False. You do indeed.



This is correct. I live in the southern Unites States. This is an all-too common belief. My dad is a fundamental Christian.


Again, feel free about arguing against the Theological problem I just provided. Or you can find papal documents confirming that at least in catholicism, you don't need baptism in order to be saved. That already confirms that in the bigger christian population of the world, your statement is false.

But to be fair, my statement was literaly incorrect. You should be christian (in the way you live) to go to heaven, you just don't need baptism or any specific religious rite to be one.

Do I hope there is a god? I am somewhat indifferent. If there is a god then fine, if not then oh well. It's an interesting question to think about, but not one that I am really emotionally invested in what the answer is. There could be a god and no afterlife, in which case I am even more indifferent, since the chances of me ever finding out about such a god are even less likely. Though it would obviously be amazing if at one point science advanced to the point that we were capable of directly detecting and proving the existence of a creator.

Do I hope there is an afterlife? Yes, to the extent that I would prefer immortality to morality in most cases. Obviously, though, I don't hope that there is a Hell for god to send me to.

Originally posted by Flyattractor
If there is an AFTERLIFE or not.

I would have thought that would have been rather OBVIOUS hence that kind of being the ULTIMATE Question for an Atheist.
Well, that's not quite the issue atheism references. Atheism just refers to lack of belief in deities.

You could technically believe in an afterlife, and still be an atheist. You just wouldn't think a deity is responsible for it.

Most atheists probably don't believe in an afterlife, but I'd argue it's not contradictory to do so.

Originally posted by Bentley
Again, feel free about arguing against the Theological problem I just provided. Or you can find papal documents confirming that at least in catholicism, you don't need baptism in order to be saved. That already confirms that in the bigger christian population of the world, your statement is false.

I'm not talking about the bigger population of the world. I'm talking about Fundamental Christianity. They do believe you have to accept Jesus to be saved and go to heaven rather than hell. That is a fact. *See Scripture passages that Rob posted on previous page* Now, the degree to which people believe it is a different thing. So whether or not they join the mission effort and try to convert people (fulfilling the "Great Commission" from Matthew 28:18-20). I don't know polls around the world in other major Christian countries, but that is Christianity. I'm not sure what you're even trying to say is false. I went to Christian high school and have been to many a church here in the southern United States. And some are more lax on this doctrine than others, but that is Christian theology.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, that's not quite the issue atheism references. Atheism just refers to lack of belief in deities.

You could technically believe in an afterlife, and still be an atheist. You just wouldn't think a deity is responsible for it.

Most atheists probably don't believe in an afterlife, but I'd argue it's not contradictory to do so. Technically you're right, but I think that there is a reason most Atheists don't believe in an afterlife. The main reasons that an afterlife was presumed in the first place was based on a religious conception of reality.

I'm not an Atheist since I believe in God, or some great Force I'd call God. But I doubt it's the Biblical one or Allah or Buddah or whoever, since you cannot attribute human limitations and understandings to something divine and doing so only to gain power is absolutely deplorable.

And with regards to the Afterlife, well I hope I'm right when I say there's something nice that exists when this miserable existance is over; We'll see when we die, I suppose.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
I'm not talking about the bigger population of the world. I'm talking about Fundamental Christianity. They do believe you have to accept Jesus to be saved and go to heaven rather than hell. That is a fact. *See Scripture passages that Rob posted on previous page* Now, the degree to which people believe it is a different thing. So whether or not they join the mission effort and try to convert people (fulfilling the "Great Commission" from Matthew 28:18-20). I don't know polls around the world in other major Christian countries, but that is Christianity. I'm not sure what you're even trying to say is false. I went to Christian high school and have been to many a church here in the southern United States. And some are more lax on this doctrine than others, but that is Christian theology.


As my second comment implied, the definition of what constitutes to be a Christian (or what does "accepting Christ" even means) weights heavily in the definition of salvation. Any number of people can argue back and forth about what teaching precedes others in canon and importance, but the fact is, if anyone is saved, then it's automatically a Christian since salvation comes from Christ.

Under that light the statement "You don't go to hell just for not being Christian in christianity" is literally false.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Well, that's not quite the issue atheism references. Atheism just refers to lack of belief in deities.

You could technically believe in an afterlife, and still be an atheist. You just wouldn't think a deity is responsible for it.

Most atheists probably don't believe in an afterlife, but I'd argue it's not contradictory to do so.

This is true, I am an atheist. I believe there is an afterlife. Not a specific "heaven" or "hell" and I do not think our choices in this life have any impact on your afterlife. I just think there are multiple planes of existence.

Originally posted by Surtur
This is true, I am an atheist. I believe there is an afterlife. Not a specific "heaven" or "hell" and I do not think our choices in this life have any impact on your afterlife. I just think there are multiple planes of existence.

Ok Surt. I am just gonna say it now. If after I die and I find myself in a room like this...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c7/e1/7c/c7e17c8992980dd425d5ade659cb25b6--beetle-juice-waiting-rooms.jpg

...I will find you and kick you in your GhostHole for 10'thousand years.

Originally posted by Bentley
Under that light the statement "You don't go to hell just for not being Christian in christianity" is literally false.

Dude, you don't make any sense to me. And that is too many double negatives. I'm done.



Originally posted by Flyattractor
Ok Surt. I am just gonna say it now. If after I die and I find myself in a room like this...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c7/e1/7c/c7e17c8992980dd425d5ade659cb25b6--beetle-juice-waiting-rooms.jpg

...I will find you and kick you in your GhostHole for 10'thousand years.







I believe this is what the beds are made of in heaven when you die...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2383/2369792889_2f3e3fb670.jpg

...I believe it, so it's true. So you have to respect and not challenge my beliefs.

SO Heaven for your nap time but Hell for the poor kittens?

What with having your fat ghost ass sitting on them!?

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Dude, you don't make any sense to me. And that is too many double negatives. I'm done.


Fit yourself, I'm just honestly trying to explain a logical stance here.


This is the short version of it:

Saved = Christian

since

Salvation = Christ

even if the individual never interacted with religion at all, he'd need to be considered Christian if he was saved. That makes salvation for non-Christians a logical impossibility.

I can't figure out how an actual "heaven" wouldn't be akin to something we see in the tv series Supernatural, where everyone has their own little separate heaven.

Since a persons idea of what is heaven would vary. There is no other way you could accommodate everyone.

Originally posted by Surtur
I can't figure out how an actual "heaven" wouldn't be akin to something we see in the tv series Supernatural, where everyone has their own little separate heaven.

Since a persons idea of what is heaven would vary. There is no other way you could accommodate everyone.

The place where everyone instantly becomes responsible and generous, you can make mistakes but you always own them. Heaven = Infinite responsability, not its opposite.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Technically you're right, but I think that there is a reason most Atheists don't believe in an afterlife. The main reasons that an afterlife was presumed in the first place was based on a religious conception of reality.
Oh, certainly. They go hand in hand for most people. Usually, the lack of belief behind an atheist outlook extends beyond God/Amaterasu/Zeus/wtfever.

I'm not convinced there is an afterlife personally, so I'm definitely a more typical atheist. I know a few who differ though.
Originally posted by Surtur
This is true, I am an atheist. I believe there is an afterlife. Not a specific "heaven" or "hell" and I do not think our choices in this life have any impact on your afterlife. I just think there are multiple planes of existence.


I think the problem is that, even though it's supposedly common knowledge, people still treat atheism as a set of beliefs when it's not. It's really just a word that describes one thing, and only that one thing. I've had this discussion with "closeted" atheists who felt like their belief in the afterlife meant they weren't atheist, despite not believing in any god.

For many, it also makes it easier to criticize by framing it as a religion, which is absurd. They then get to point the finger and say "See! You do it too!"

Originally posted by Bentley
The problem with that interpretation is that the teological implications actually shrink the sacrifice of Christ. If you couldn't have found the Church during your lifetime, then you would be de facto condeemed to Hell, which would make Christ's Death a "partial" salvation, not available for every human being.

So to get around that problem most christian denominations assume that people can find Christ's grace outside the Church even if it's always more desirable to become a member of whichever christian beliefs they practice. Tbh man this feels like a matter of interpretation. Based on quotes posted in the thread if some Christians were to tell me that I'm going to hell for either not being baptized or not believing in Jesus and specifically quote passages from the Bible as the source of that beliefe.. they wouldn't be wrong. In fact it seems like that is the most accurate interpretation of what's actually written. An interpretation that most Christians simply don't go along with because most Christians are nice people who don't go around threateing people with eternal damnation.

Originally posted by SamZED
Tbh man this feels like a matter of interpretation. Based on quotes posted in the thread if some Christians were to tell me that I'm going to hell for either not being baptized or not believing in Jesus and specifically quote passages from the Bible as the source of that beliefe.. they wouldn't be wrong. In fact it seems like that is the most accurate interpretation of what's actually written. An interpretation that most Christians simply don't go along with because most Christians are nice people who don't go around threateing people with eternal damnation.

It also depends on a lot of things besides interpretation of the text. The Scriptures are, of course, meant to be interpreted, Jesus spokes in parables and didn't leave any written texts behind, he uses strong imagery included but not limited to the End of Times, cutting off's one arm, Jean the Baptist being Elijah the prophet. The same people who ask you to read a passage literally will forcibly tell you another part is allegorical, or that Creation is entirely inconsistent. So what's always in the air is "which authority should be the highest" regarding an specific interpretation.

There are the voluntary omissions when reading these texts. Jesus's message has very strong anti-religious undertones that are, obviously, played down by Religious authorities.

I do think you make a fair point about people that use the Bible not being literally wrong in their way of reading Scripture. as long as they don't act against the Fundamentals of Christianity,
they have a religious freedom of interpretation. Just to cite an example, the Catholic Church allows believers to read the Genesis literally or to admit evolution as they see fit, as long as either interpretation doesn't hurt their faiths or that of others.

Originally posted by SamZED
Tbh man this feels like a matter of interpretation. Based on quotes posted in the thread if some Christians were to tell me that I'm going to hell for either not being baptized or not believing in Jesus and specifically quote passages from the Bible as the source of that beliefe.. they wouldn't be wrong. In fact it seems like that is the most accurate interpretation of what's actually written. An interpretation that most Christians simply don't go along with because most Christians are nice people who don't go around threateing people with eternal damnation.

I agree with this. Except...


Originally posted by SamZED
...they wouldn't be wrong...

Oh, they're definitely wrong, lol, but I know what you mean. Within their crazy worldview they are just going on the most reasonable interpretation of the text.