Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The team (plus Eternity): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wUDVJYaPKiE/WZT52crNe7I/AAAAAAAABro/G_6t8alfxy0NPdjPsscreV7USIM_Gt19gCHMYCw/s1600/RCO025.jpg

Who wins?

Team, imo.

After all, the Fifth Cosmos alone bound/incapacitated the First Firmament(the others weren't even required.) So yeah. /shrug


...Though I'm more curious who/what the Fourth Cosmos is intended to be... Lots of nods to Stan Lee here:
https://s26.postimg.org/7nh0ucjwp/Untitled.png

mmm

Okay well....thisnis though.....


The living tribunal is set to keep balance. A possible result of the fight is that the team (the different eternities) BREAK a cosmic balance in which case the Tribunal reigns supreme and has ultimate power to rule. In a case where the team decides to just attack the Tribunal without any balance being upset then the team might win. But the issue is that there is no real evidence of the Tribunal being killed by a multiversal being... I mean the Tribunal ahs never really died to cosmic entities or multiversal entities. There is no evidence to point out that the Tribunal can literally die.

The Beyonders killed him but that is a different thing. Completely.

I declare that the tribunal has an upper hand here (me hahaha) for the very moment these BREAK any law the Tribunal should be able to rule.

Im not sure about Infinity (7th cosmos) power. In 7th cosmos the power of "Eternity" was split between two beings (Infinity/Eternity) while in others cosmos they remain in one being?

And Josh, this team have multiple beings with Multiversal power. I agree he should beat any encarnation of cosmos alone (even the FF?). But together, im not sure.

So what are the ultimates exactly

Eternitys from the past cosmos.

Why are they more powerful

And what is the first

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Im not sure about Infinity (7th cosmos) power. In 7th cosmos the power of "Eternity" was split between two beings (Infinity/Eternity) while in others cosmos they remain in one being?

And Josh, this team have multiple beings with Multiversal power. I agree he should beat any encarnation of cosmos alone (even the FF?). But together, im not sure.

Even the FF! The Tribunal stands in top of any multiversal being.

Imo FF is more powerful than the 8th Eternity. In the last issue he was beating it in a fight...

Classic LT held two megaverses on the palm of his hand.

Originally posted by "Id"
Classic LT held two megaverses on the palm of his hand. That was then this is retcon now.

So which one did galactus come from

he was born as the 6th iteration died and the 7th came into existence. anyway, who knows who would win this? classic lt seemed to be above any single iteration, but could he be above 7 of them working together? phukc if i know. how easily did thanos with the IG beat eternity? moderate difficulty maybe? and LT was above the IG, so...

yeah, who knows. if i were forced to pick, i'd probably say the team would wear him down and probably take him, but these types of battles are impossible to gauge. /shrug

As per latest retcon in Ultimates, LT is merely an inner function of Eternity.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EfNlsuxhQ0w/WZSDnvHGsII/AAAAAAAAsGs/WiMq6bR0wNkWf-zkcTIxGrgcXFFhmFiPACLcBGAs/s1600/061_0026.jpgOriginally posted by leonidas
he was born as the 6th iteration died and the 7th came into existence. anyway, who knows who would win this? classic lt seemed to be above any single iteration, but could he be above 7 of them working together? phukc if i know. how easily did thanos with the IG beat eternity? moderate difficulty maybe? and LT was above the IG, so...

yeah, who knows. if i were forced to pick, i'd probably say the team would wear him down and probably take him, but these types of battles are impossible to gauge. /shrug
Starlin retconned his own version of LT and Eternity as universal though. The current iteration of Eternity is the sums of all Eternities.

LT was all hype and no substance.

Why is the first firmiment called the second?

Originally posted by abhilegend
As per latest retcon in Ultimates, LT is merely an inner function of Eternity.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EfNlsuxhQ0w/WZSDnvHGsII/AAAAAAAAsGs/WiMq6bR0wNkWf-zkcTIxGrgcXFFhmFiPACLcBGAs/s1600/061_0026.jpg Yeah, I lol'd when I read that. Evidently LT's entire purpose/function/being is wholly dependent on the health and stability of Eternity... This heavily implies that Eternity > LT. ermmnone

Ewing basically took this concept, and blanketed LT under it as well:
http://i.imgur.com/sMkFsyD.jpg




I don't know if said cosmology will stick for good, but for now it IS something that needs to be considered in these discussions... leo should put it in his Cosmology thread, tbh.

yeah, maybe leo should, even though leo doesn't like it. mmm

@abhi: i didn't factor in any of the retcons because the op specifically states CLASSIC lt is the one we're using for this discussion. and while he may have jobbed from time to time, he was undoubtedly far above eternity. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
he was born as the 6th iteration died and the 7th came into existence. anyway, who knows who would win this? classic lt seemed to be above any single iteration, but could he be above 7 of them working together? phukc if i know. how easily did thanos with the IG beat eternity? moderate difficulty maybe? and LT was above the IG, so...

yeah, who knows. if i were forced to pick, i'd probably say the team would wear him down and probably take him, but these types of battles are impossible to gauge. /shrug

But Thanos fighted against 616 Eternity, not the Multi Eternity.

Was ever stated or hinted that LT was above Multiversal Eternity?

now you're getting into even more purely speculative areas. eternity as long and often been considered a multiverse. there are many examples of this. but the true multiversal eternity, as was discussed in that famous what if issue was never seen on panel anywhere so we have no idea how powerful he really was. regardless, classic lt was multiversal too, with aspects of himself in all realities. if each aspect was above the universal form of eternity, i don't see why his totality wouldn't be above the multiversal form of eternity. /shrug

as mentioned above, lt was also shown capable of holding megaverses at his classic power levels. there are no proofs of these stances, but that feat would seem to lend support to lt's overall, pre retcon power levels.

Originally posted by abhilegend
As per latest retcon in Ultimates, LT is merely an inner function of Eternity.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EfNlsuxhQ0w/WZSDnvHGsII/AAAAAAAAsGs/WiMq6bR0wNkWf-zkcTIxGrgcXFFhmFiPACLcBGAs/s1600/061_0026.jpg
Starlin retconned his own version of LT and Eternity as universal though. The current iteration of Eternity is the sums of all Eternities.

LT was all hype and no substance.

LT was created by TOAA to serve a function within Eternity. That has always been and is not a retcon. In issue 3, LT is described as the most powerful being in creation before the hierarchy goes into flux. So nothing has changed.

Worth noting that Ewing still regarding the Living Tribunals in each universe as the most powerful beings in creation(under 'normal' cosmological circumstances, I would assume):

http://i.imgur.com/aCbG2Us.jpg


...Just to make things even more confusing.

Originally posted by leonidas
now you're getting into even more purely speculative areas. eternity as long and often been considered a multiverse. there are many examples of this. but the true multiversal eternity, as was discussed in that famous what if issue was never seen on panel anywhere so we have no idea how powerful he really was. regardless, classic lt was multiversal too, with aspects of himself in all realities. if each aspect was above the universal form of eternity, i don't see why his totality wouldn't be above the multiversal form of eternity. /shrug

as mentioned above, lt was also shown capable of holding megaverses at his classic power levels. there are no proofs of these stances, but that feat would seem to lend support to lt's overall, pre retcon power levels.

hrm, seems i said WHAT IF issue. obviously i meant the famous FF issue.... and yeah, just so...weird that he was considered the most powerful but was killed off so easily. i know the idea of 'transition' was the excuse used to explain away order and chaos killing him, but the whole thing just felt confusing. didn't enjoy the climax in ultimates 100 either. too easy, maybe? all the past iterations just show up? hrm. and i guess there is no more oaa? like galan, i had the def sense that lt is now below the multiversal iterations. worst of all, ewing went back on his original idea of changing galactus BACK to purple!

me am disappoint.

Originally posted by Galan007
Worth noting that Ewing still regarding the Living Tribunals in each universe as the most powerful beings in creation(under 'normal' cosmological circumstances, I would assume):

http://i.imgur.com/aCbG2Us.jpg


...Just to make things even more confusing.

I think that Ewing refers to one single multiversal LT that he refers to plurally (beings) due to the three faces.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
LT was created by TOAA to serve a function within Eternity. That has always been and is not a retcon. In issue 3, LT is described as the most powerful being in creation before the hierarchy goes into flux. So nothing has changed.
That's never been stated before.

Yes he was stated to be the most powerful being in creation AFTER he was killed. Eternity resurrected him.

Eternity>>>>LT now.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eternity>>>>LT now. Yeah, pretty much.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is absurd that Ewing has made LT's existence/function completely dependent on Eternity, but that doesn't make it any less canon.

srug

Originally posted by TheHulkster
LT was created by TOAA to serve a function within Eternity. That has always been and is not a retcon. In issue 3, LT is described as the most powerful being in creation before the hierarchy goes into flux. So nothing has changed.

Quite right.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, pretty much.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is absurd that Ewing has made LT's existence/function completely dependent on Eternity, but that doesn't make it any less canon.

srug

Where is that stated?

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's never been stated before.

Yes he was stated to be the most powerful being in creation AFTER he was killed. Eternity resurrected him.

Eternity>>>>LT now.

No. LT is in par with M Eternity.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Where is that stated? It was explicitly stated/shown on panel throughout Ewing's Ultimates run...

Before Eternity had solidified, and when he was being held captive by the First Firmament, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were in a state of flux as a corollary -- that's why Order & Chaos were able to outright murder LT and usurp his position, for example... But when the First Firmament was beaten and Eternity had solidified, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were able to assume their 'proper' cosmological roles once more.

So like I said: this means the power/function of the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy is wholly dependent on the health and stability of Eternity... If he's healthy, they're healthy; if he's stable, they're stable.


...Like it or not, that's simply how shit is right now.

Okay. First of all the Marvel Universe wasnt retconned just modified. Meaning that all previous events to the 8th Multiverse are prevailing (consider all previous events like history; the past)

Now. The role of the Living Tribunal is specifically stated. To Cast judgement and to keep cosmic balance. Also it is specifically stated that he is 2nd to TOAA. Now, does this mean he is inmortal and all powerfull? No? As can be seen when the Beyonders and Lord Chaos&Master Order killed him. No why was this?

1. LT vs The Beyonders: We know the LT lost this battle. Why? To Answer the question its required to ask a question. Was any cosmic balance broken? The answer lies within the definition of The Beyonders. They are from Beyond. They dont belong to the Multiverse. And therefore the Tribunal cant cast judgement. So the tribunals powers are limited to his nature. As long as there isnt a case the tribunals powers are equals to none.

I have another theory for this one which makes more sense. But i will state it if necessary.

2. LT vs Order and Chaos: We know that the Tribunal lost against this multiversal beings and you might say this breaks the upper statement.
Now i ask you this question? Was a cosmic balance broken? The answer lies withinthe same comic. No. The Tribunal himself stated that the universe was young, and that Hierchy was setted. This justifies Chaos and Order actions and the Tribunal cant cast judgement. As result Tribunals powers equals to none and perishes.


Conclusion. The Power of the tribunal is limitted to the "case". As long as there is a case, the tribunal is Omnipotent and second to TOAA. This includes Multiversal Eternity. Should he break balance the Tribunal can and will judge. Since he was created by TOAA to keep balance in the Multiverse. Contrary to what some have said the LT isnt limitted by the Multiverse (Multiversal eternity since now the Multiverse is Eternity)

ermm

That's simply not what is shown on panel.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was explicitly stated/shown on panel throughout Ewing's Ultimates run...

Before Eternity had solidified, and when he was being held captive by the First Firmament, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were in a state of flux as a corollary -- that's why Order & Chaos were able to outright murder LT and usurp his position, for example... But when the First Firmament was beaten and Eternity had solidified, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were able to assume their 'proper' cosmological roles once more.

So like I said: this means the power/function of the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy is wholly dependent on the health and stability of Eternity... If he's healthy, they're healthy; if he's stable, they're stable.


...Like it or not, that's simply how shit is right now.

Hmmm. The tribunal said that the cosmic hierchy was being formed. This is the result of the creations and formation of the 8th universe. Not because Eternity was captive. LT was killed i believe before that.

Eternity was chained before LT was killed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eternity was chained before LT was killed.

Yet. Again Tribunal cant judge that cause no cosmic balance is being broken. He stated it. Hierchy being formed means he couldnt cast sentence.

He casted his judgment just fine for Galactus being Lifebringer.

No, he declined to cast judgement for or against either side. LT having a symbiotic relationship with the multiversal Eternity has nothing to do with the hierarchy. LT is stated to be the most powerful being in all creation.

He did. He said that as it was a new multiverse he could be whatever he was.

LT is resurrected by Eternity being free. That's more than a symbiotic relationship.

He says that until things are established, he cannot set a precedent. It's like a judge telling the two sides to work it out.

LT's death and coming back are both part of the multiverse being in flux. It has nothing to with an established multiverse and is all about a symbiotic relationship. Nothing to support your lowballing based, far reaching extrapolation.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
He says that until things are established, he cannot set a precedent. It's like a judge telling the two sides to work it out.

LT's death and coming back are both part of the multiverse being in flux. It has nothing to with an established multiverse and is all about a symbiotic relationship. Nothing to support your lowballing based, far reaching extrapolation.
He ruled against Chaos and Order. Hence why they rebelled against him.

Him being resurrected is directly done by Eternity. Directly shown. You can make the excuses though as you always do.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He ruled against Chaos and Order. Hence why they rebelled against him.

Him being resurrected is directly done by Eternity. Directly shown.


No. The Tribunal didn't judge. He said he couldn't cause the cosmic hierchy was being formed (basically saying that anything could be done). If he would have judge then Chaos and Order wouldn't have interfered.

Now the Tribunal appears again after Eternity is finally free. But this doesnt mean he is affected or dependent on Eternity. I'll tell you why. And it goes all back to Cosmic balance.

Eternity is one of the 4 entities of balance. Meaning before the secret wars. Every universe had an eternity. But it also had a Mistress Death, and infinity, and an
Oblivion. 4 entities representing balance in each universe and therefore balance in the multiverse.

Now moving back again to the present. Presently we have a Multiversal Eternity. But because of the nature of the Marvel Universe it can also be known that there must be a Multiversal Death, Infinity, and Oblivion. Now who is the one in charge of keeping this balance? The Living Tribunal.

So according to this. Where Eternity opposites Death, and Infinity opposites Oblivion we find the Living Tribunal in the middle representing cosmic balance. Now, this means that - as I said before - the Living Tribunal is independent from any of these characters but again dependent on them as a whole (meaning that if cosmic balance is broken to a point in where the 4 cosmic entities are affected then the LT is also).

Now. Let's create an scenario in where Eternity breaks cosmic balance. Let's say he turns dark and begins to attack Death, Infinity, and Oblivion. Cosmic balance is broken, for eternity represents eternity, and then his role is broken as "eterniy". The Tribunal can then step in and cast judgement on Multiversal Eternity and force him to his normal duties. Now if Oblivion or Death were to do the same....The Tribunal can't cast judgement. Simply because it's the nature of this beings to kill. Similar to what happened with the Beyonders, although the Tribunal stepped in he had no right nor case to stop them. Since the Beyonders wanted the destruction of everything, they were representations of Oblivion. (No cosmic balance being broken)

The LT is a hard character to understand. Mainly because cosmic balance can be interpreted in several ways.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. The Tribunal didn't judge. He said he couldn't cause the cosmic hierchy was being formed (basically saying that anything could be done). If he would have judge then Chaos and Order wouldn't have interfered.

Now the Tribunal appears again after Eternity is finally free. But this doesnt mean he is affected or dependent on Eternity. I'll tell you why. And it goes all back to Cosmic balance.

Eternity is one of the 4 entities of balance. Meaning before the secret wars. Every universe had an eternity. But it also had a Mistress Death, and infinity, and an
Oblivion. 4 entities representing balance in each universe and therefore balance in the multiverse.

Now moving back again to the present. Presently we have a Multiversal Eternity. But because of the nature of the Marvel Universe it can also be known that there must be a Multiversal Death, Infinity, and Oblivion. Now who is the one in charge of keeping this balance? The Living Tribunal.

So according to this. Where Eternity opposites Death, and Infinity opposites Oblivion we find the Living Tribunal in the middle representing cosmic balance. Now, this means that - as I said before - the Living Tribunal is independent from any of these characters but again dependent on them as a whole (meaning that if cosmic balance is broken to a point in where the 4 cosmic entities are affected then the LT is also).

Now. Let's create an scenario in where Eternity breaks cosmic balance. Let's say he turns dark and begins to attack Death, Infinity, and Oblivion. Cosmic balance is broken, for eternity represents eternity, and then his role is broken as "eterniy". The Tribunal can then step in and cast judgement on Multiversal Eternity and force him to his normal duties. Now if Oblivion or Death were to do the same....The Tribunal can't cast judgement. Simply because it's the nature of this beings to kill. Similar to what happened with the Beyonders, although the Tribunal stepped in he had no right nor case to stop them. Since the Beyonders wanted the destruction of everything, they were representations of Oblivion. (No cosmic balance being broken)

The LT is a hard character to understand. Mainly because cosmic balance can be interpreted in several ways.
These are your personal views and has been contradicted by on panel showings.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Show anywhere what you have said is shown on panel.

As i said my comment is based on several comics.

1st. The LT independency from Eternity.

http://http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Josh-Alexander/media/ 8f40d9cc818b81cd7b66d60d06ccf92d18770fe9_hq_zpsgwc
7lu62.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3

http://http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Josh-Alexander/media/Screenshot_20170830-100849_zpsllq1ftjz.png.html?sort=3&o=1

As you can see it is specifically stated that the LT answers directly to TOAA. This disclaims what you guys have said about him depending on eternity.

2nd. The Living Tribunal represents the Multiverse.


]http://http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Josh-Alexander/media/main-qimg-65167dbeaafb958ec0375d89a297a8df-c_zpsmuruzy47.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=5

As seen in the panel. The Living Tribunal REPRESENTS the multiverse.
Now this is continuity info and therefore is valid. Also, you guys have been wrong to say that Multiversal Eternity represents the Multiverse.

Again this is because eternity only represents everything that is eternal in the Multiverse. The Multiverse however is representation of Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Master Order, and the other cosmic entities. This again proves my point that now there MUST be a Multiversal Infinity, Death, etc.

3rd. The LT represents all cosmic entities (He is the balance of the Multiverse)


http://http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Josh-Alexander/media/Screenshot_20170830-095807_zpsp5qhntbt.png.html?sort=3&o=0

As you can see his faces represent the various cosmic entities. This proofs my point that the Living Tribunal lies in the middle of the cosmic entities to keep the balance of these.

Conclusion: The fact that Eternity is now Multiversal doesnt mean he is on top of LT. For eternity represents but one aspect of the Multiverse but the LT represents all aspects which creates balance in these. He is the manifestation of the Multiverse (figuratively).

Now you prove where it says that Eternity is above LT.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Show anywhere what you have said is shown on panel.

As i said my comment is based on several comics.

1st. The LT independency from Eternity.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/ 8f40d9cc818b81cd7b66d60d06ccf92d18770fe9_hq_zpsgwc
7lu62.jpg

As you can see it is specifically stated that the LT answers directly to TOAA. This disclaims what you guys have said about him depending on eternity.

2nd. The Living Tribunal represents the Multiverse.


http://http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Josh-Alexander/media/main-qimg-65167dbeaafb958ec0375d89a297a8df-c_zpsmuruzy47.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=5

As seen in the panel. The Living Tribunal REPRESENTS the multiverse.
Now this is continuity info and therefore is valid. Also, you guys have been wrong to say that Multiversal Eternity represents the Multiverse.

Again this is because eternity only represents everything that is eternal in the Multiverse. The Multiverse however is representation of Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Master Order, and the other cosmic entities. This again proves my point that now there MUST be a Multiversal Infinity, Death, etc.

3rd. The LT represents all cosmic entities (He is the balance of the Multiverse)


http://http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/Josh-Alexander/media/Screenshot_20170830-095807_zpsp5qhntbt.png.html?sort=3&o=0

As you can see his faces represent the various cosmic entities. This proofs my point that the Living Tribunal lies in the middle of the cosmic entities to keep the balance of these.

Conclusion: The fact that Eternity is now Multiversal doesnt mean he is on top of LT. For eternity represents but one aspect of the Multiverse but the LT represents all aspects which creates balance in these. He is the manifestation of the Multiverse (figuratively).

Now you prove where it says that Eternity is above LT.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
The team (plus Eternity): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wUDVJYaPKiE/WZT52crNe7I/AAAAAAAABro/G_6t8alfxy0NPdjPsscreV7USIM_Gt19gCHMYCw/s1600/RCO025.jpg

Who wins?

Ultimate Ultimates.

El oh el.

Above links are broken. Am looking to fix the issue sorry.

Not your fault, photobucket refuses to provide its services for free.

Find yourself a new image hosting site. Postimg, imgur, turboimagehost, whatever.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Show anywhere what you have said is shown on panel.

As i said my comment is based on several comics.

1st. The LT independency from Eternity

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/ 8f40d9cc818b81cd7b66d60d06ccf92d18770fe9_hq_zpsgwc
7lu62.jpg

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/Screenshot_20170830-100849_zpsllq1ftjz.png

As you can see it is specifically stated that the LT answers directly to TOAA. This disclaims what you guys have said about him depending on eternity.

2nd. The Living Tribunal represents the Multiverse.


http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/main-qimg-65167dbeaafb958ec0375d89a297a8df-c_zpsmuruzy47_1.jpeg

As seen in the panel. The Living Tribunal REPRESENTS the multiverse.
Now this is continuity info and therefore is valid. Also, you guys have been wrong to say that Multiversal Eternity represents the Multiverse.

Again this is because eternity only represents everything that is eternal in the Multiverse. The Multiverse however is representation of Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Master Order, and the other cosmic entities. This again proves my point that now there MUST be a Multiversal Infinity, Death, etc.

3rd. The LT represents all cosmic entities (He is the balance of the Multiverse)

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/Screenshot_20170830-095807_zpsp5qhntbt.png


As you can see his faces represent the various cosmic entities. This proofs my point that the Living Tribunal lies in the middle of the cosmic entities to keep the balance of these.

Conclusion: The fact that Eternity is now Multiversal doesnt mean he is on top of LT. For eternity represents but one aspect of the Multiverse but the LT represents all aspects which creates balance in these. He is the manifestation of the Multiverse (figuratively).

Now you prove where it says that Eternity is above LT.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Not your fault, photobucket refuses to provide its services for free.

Find yourself a new image hosting site. Postimg, imgur, turboimagehost, whatever.

Manage to upload some right now. Atleast enough to prove my points xd.

Lol, do you not understand the concept of a retcon?

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, do you not understand the concept of a retcon?

I do. Do you??

He does. that's why the recent reveal is being addressed as it made all the previous scans your posting obsolete. The retcon removed the prior establishment from continuity

Wonders of comics....give it a few months and they will probably retcon the retcon

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, do you not understand the concept of a retcon?

Originally posted by -K-M-
He does. that's why the recent reveal is being addressed as it made all the previous scans your posting obsolete. The retcon removed the prior establishment from continuity

Wonders of comics....give it a few months and they will probably retcon the retcon

Incorrect.

First of all the thread is refering to the Classic Living Tribunal (Multiverse 7) against the various Eternities from the current storyline. In that aspect my panels arent obsolete.

Second of all, you got it wrong. The "classic Living Tribunal and the "current" LT are the same in every aspect. So it means that all previous feats of LT still there. Multiverse 8 LT possesses the same roles and abilities of Multiverse 7 LT.

Besides Marvel moving from Multiverse 7 to 8 didnt reboot all information just modified it. For instance, while Eternity was modified in the sence that now he became Multiversal, the samething doesnt apply for the LT. He is the same until proven otherwise.

Here i live you a link to a video on what exactly "All new All different Marvel is".

https://youtu.be/UTvrNHpmKtM

All new All different is simply the advancement of Multiverse 7 into Multiverse 8. It isnt a reboot.

True. Didn't notice it said classic LT to be honest

Originally posted by -K-M-
True. Didn't notice it said classic LT to be honest

Np. Either way as i said. The Tribunal is the same as before, nothing has changed in his character.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As i said my comment is based on several comics.

1st. The LT independency from Eternity

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/ 8f40d9cc818b81cd7b66d60d06ccf92d18770fe9_hq_zpsgwc
7lu62.jpg

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/Screenshot_20170830-100849_zpsllq1ftjz.png

As you can see it is specifically stated that the LT answers directly to TOAA. This disclaims what you guys have said about him depending on eternity.

2nd. The Living Tribunal represents the Multiverse.


http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/main-qimg-65167dbeaafb958ec0375d89a297a8df-c_zpsmuruzy47_1.jpeg

As seen in the panel. The Living Tribunal REPRESENTS the multiverse.
Now this is continuity info and therefore is valid. Also, you guys have been wrong to say that Multiversal Eternity represents the Multiverse.

Again this is because eternity only represents everything that is eternal in the Multiverse. The Multiverse however is representation of Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Master Order, and the other cosmic entities. This again proves my point that now there MUST be a Multiversal Infinity, Death, etc.

3rd. The LT represents all cosmic entities (He is the balance of the Multiverse)

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/Screenshot_20170830-095807_zpsp5qhntbt.png


As you can see his faces represent the various cosmic entities. This proofs my point that the Living Tribunal lies in the middle of the cosmic entities to keep the balance of these.

Conclusion: The fact that Eternity is now Multiversal doesnt mean he is on top of LT. For eternity represents but one aspect of the Multiverse but the LT represents all aspects which creates balance in these. He is the manifestation of the Multiverse (figuratively).

Now you prove where it says that Eternity is above LT.
These do not show what you are trying to convey though.

Good try.

Originally posted by abhilegend
These do not show what you are trying to convey though.

Good try.

Did you read properly. Cause they do.

Originally posted by Steve Zodiac
That was then this is retcon now.

Topic States "CLASSIC" LT. If the Original Poster is referring to this incarnation of LT, than LT is the superior of the two.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Originally posted by abhilegend
These do not show what you are trying to convey though.

Good try.

Did you read properly. Cause they do.
No, they don't. You're arguing that with cosmic imbalance, LT can do whatever he wants. Korvac, MC2 and Beyonders say otherwise where there was cosmic imbalance and LT couldn't do anything about it.

LT is all hype and nothing to show.

Originally posted by "Id"
Topic States "CLASSIC" LT. If the Original Poster is referring to this incarnation of LT, than LT is the superior of the two.
Well the most classic version of the Living Tribunal put great effort into trying to destroy a planet. http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/25/1.0

Originally posted by Astner
Ah. The good old day where the Living Tribunal tried to destroy a planet by blowing up mountains one at a time.

http://i.imgur.com/puegZDcm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/asNdWGNm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/ajoXhDzm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/lEL8q0Ym.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/GHPbVrjm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Kmov3Lvm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/buMftHom.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/yYDY64tm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/pFqwqsPm.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
Well the most classic version of the Living Tribunal put great effort into trying to destroy a planet. http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/25/1.0

That he did. He is Kung Fu plot device like the Spectre. Only lamer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, they don't. You're arguing that with cosmic imbalance, LT can do whatever he wants. Korvac, MC2 and Beyonders say otherwise where there was cosmic imbalance and LT couldn't do anything about it.

LT is all hype and nothing to show.

Wrong. The tribunal can do whatever he want thats true. But as I said before, his powers become limited when there is no case.

The Beyonders for instance where not breaking any cosmic balance and therefore the Tribunal lost when facing them. What makes you claim that a cosmic balance was broken?

well, the multiverse dying would seem to imply an imbalance. if he didn't perceive an imbalance why would he have bothered to try fighting them at all....?

Plus, there's the whole oh shit they're killing me thing.....

Originally posted by leonidas
well, the multiverse dying would seem to imply an imbalance. if he didn't perceive an imbalance why would he have bothered to try fighting them at all....?

Yeah I analyzed that for quite sometime and came to a conclusion. What happens if all the multiversal is dying? Will The Tribunal intercede because there is an inbalance or because he can't stand seeing his multiverse dying?

Because again when we go to consider what cosmic imbalance means we get to understand better the Tribunal. Throughout the several comics we've learnt that the multiversal is born and dies time and time again...untilmnow when the Beyonders appear and killnitnagain just to be born again... So, does that seems like an imbalance now? If we see it at a cosmic perspective as there is Eterrnity and Infinity (representing the Living and healthy multiverse) there is also death and Oblivion (The dying multiverse). What If the Beyonders are heralds of Oblivion and Death? What if the Beyonders represent a Omniversal Galactus, which needs to destroy in Order for life to be born?

That would explain why the LT couldn't stop them! To me the Beyonders are needed to destroy multiversal so new ones can be born...it would make perfect sense. Just like the LT represent TOAA's judge, the Beyonders would represent TOAA's eraser.

it was made pretty clear through the longggg arc that the incursion that started the collapse of the mutliverse wasn't part of the natural order though--it brought about the PREMATURE end of the multiverse. and obviously no beyonders were used to end the previous multiverse that birthed galactus... that also begs the question--if lt didn't perceive it as an unnatural ending, but rather the beyonders just doing their job, then why would he act at all? he isn't an emotional entity, don't see him as being 'attached' to the multiverse since he should know he'd simply be reborn in the next one... and you'd think if your speculation was right about the beyonders somehow serving toaa, that lt would recognize that and let them go about their business. /shrug

LT didn't just roll over. He actively fought them.

And lost.

Originally posted by leonidas
it was made pretty clear through the longggg arc that the incursion that started the collapse of the mutliverse wasn't part of the natural order though--it brought about the PREMATURE end of the multiverse. and obviously no beyonders were used to end the previous multiverse that birthed galactus... that also begs the question--if lt didn't perceive it as an unnatural ending, but rather the beyonders just doing their job, then why would he act at all? he isn't an emotional entity, don't see him as being 'attached' to the multiverse since he should know he'd simply be reborn in the next one... and you'd think if your speculation was right about the beyonders somehow serving toaa, that lt would recognize that and let them go about their business. /shrug

Well that's very much true. However if the multiverse ends what happens to the Tribunal? It's not an emotional thing, it is a must do thing. The Tribunal has to step In because he has and not because there is a case. Could you show panels were it states that it is a premature ending, cause I don't remember reading that.

Besides where did you read that there is a timing for the multiverse to die? All am saying is, it makes perfect sense for the Beyonders to represent a form of Oblivion/Death of the Multiverse. Furthermore, the ending of the Multiverse of Galactus wasn't given a reason...so that cliffhanger is there.

And not really...The fact that TOAA created both LT and the Beyonders doesn't mean that these knew each other.

Another reason why there couldn't be a case is because the Beyonders are from Beyond. They don't belong to the Multiverse and therefore don't make part of the Cosmic balance of the Multiverse. Therefore, they could make part of an Omniversal Cosmic Balance...as I said before, they could be a form of Multiverse eating Galactus.

These are Theories though. But they give good reasons why the LT lost the battle in Time Runs Out.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/avengersalliance/images/e/ee/Incursion_Explanation.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130805010131

the mutliverse ends too soon as a result of the incursions. that is...pretty damn unnatural imo.

as for the natural ending of things--that has been referenced several times. galactus has made reference to the end of things, and his role at the end. he even had a conversation with franklin richards not long ago referencing having someone there AT the end to see it with. we even see the natural end when the previous multiverse died only to be reborn. in THIS case, HUMANS had to survive for there to even BE a new multiverse, since reed and the others were the ones who shaped and formed it. again, proof that the end of the previous multiverse was anything but natural...

the rest, and many of your posts, are wayyy too speculatory for my liking and honestly, it doesn't make much sense. the beyonders have a very long history in marvel. they've been around since, like, 1979 or 1980? they exist outside the multiverse, are the source of cubes and cube beings, etc... they are not toaa's erasers and never have been remotely depicted in such a way. they've an established history and the entire plan revolving around owen reece and making him into a bomb to destroy the multiverse was explained as part of an experiment to end everything.

they were simply depicted as being beyond lt. it's no more complicated than that, like the original sw beyonder was...beyond him. no reason for speculation. /shrug

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Wrong. The tribunal can do whatever he want thats true. But as I said before, his powers become limited when there is no case.

The Beyonders for instance where not breaking any cosmic balance and therefore the Tribunal lost when facing them. What makes you claim that a cosmic balance was broken?
There was a case for all of these. In case of Korvac it was flat out stated that he was causing imbalance in the multiverse.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dXWdX8WXbBH7i5kSVjkIzChlKGj5fK6kixKiepGlwj-76IAG_1RKzPu_lVoN9LY2H4JrrUy1ZLjuvA=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/E9luKtFC7--uxAqNK0vN7fvZKOQUwExl8oegLtvrUWQSjk-KySFlf3PpYbcR__Lf_DTq9jQFAs9zlw=s1600

Originally posted by leonidas
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/avengersalliance/images/e/ee/Incursion_Explanation.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130805010131

the mutliverse ends too soon as a result of the incursions. that is...pretty damn unnatural imo.

as for the natural ending of things--that has been referenced several times. galactus has made reference to the end of things, and his role at the end. he even had a conversation with franklin richards not long ago referencing having someone there AT the end to see it with. we even see the natural end when the previous multiverse died only to be reborn. in THIS case, HUMANS had to survive for there to even BE a new multiverse, since reed and the others were the ones who shaped and formed it. again, proof that the end of the previous multiverse was anything but natural...

the rest, and many of your posts, are wayyy too speculatory for my liking and honestly, it doesn't make much sense. the beyonders have a very long history in marvel. they've been around since, like, 1979 or 1980? they exist outside the multiverse, are the source of cubes and cube beings, etc... they are not toaa's erasers and never have been remotely depicted in such a way. they've an established history and the entire plan revolving around owen reece and making him into a bomb to destroy the multiverse was explained as part of an experiment to end everything.

they were simply depicted as being beyond lt. it's no more complicated than that, like the original sw beyonder was...beyond him. no reason for speculation. /shrug

I love good discussions man!

Okay. First of all, the way Universe 6 ended doesn't mean that all universes ended that way. For instance, as we are informed in the Ultimates, the first universe was the First Firmament. But it all ended when the Celestials fought the Aspirants tearing FF appart. This lead to the creation of the 2nd Multiverse (Eternity). Does this mean that the 6th Multiverse (Galactus Universe) ended that way? No. The samething applies here, the 7 Multiverse didn't end up as the 6th, in the same way as the 6th didn't end up like the 1st. So that statement of yours doesnt make much sense.

Now, going back again. The same beyonders told that they were performing an "experiment". Now they never said what the experiment was. However we were let to assume that they wanted to destroy the Multiverse, but did it mean they were gonna leave it destroy? Not really. They could have created a New Multiverse out of the Older one, and therefore giving birth to the 8th Universe. So your point that without the Humans there could have been no 8th Multiverse isn't completely true.

Lets move to the Tribunal once again. Again there was NO CASE! You yourself have proven so! Either way, either am wrong or correct on the point that the Beyonders are a natural thing, still there is no way for a CASE to exist. As you yourself said, the Beyonders are not from the Multiverse. When we say beyonders, we are refering to beings of an Omniversal scale! The Living Tribunal is the keeper of cosmic balance in the Multiverse. Yeah! Lets say you are right and there was a cosmic imbalance; there was reallly none since a cosmic imbalance must happen within the same Multiverse. In this case, the Beyonders don't represent a cosmic imbalance since they don't belong to the Multiverse, therefore there was no Case for the LT to win. See? One way or another the Tribunal had no case.

Now, I know the Beyonders have been around for quite long time. Now, the information we have on them is almost none! Throughout all the topic of the Beyonders we know more about the Cosmic Cubes, MM, The Beyonder, than of the race itself! The only time when we really got to see the Beyonders powers and abilites was at Secret Wars and Time Runs Out, and yet we know little. Won't you agree? When we include the Beyonders in any Topic we can do nothing but SPECULATE. For instance, Who Created Them? What do they want? Where do they live? etc. etc. etc. Its required for us to SPECULATE in this cases.

Yeah am speculating a lot, but speculation becomes THEORIES when there are strong arguments. Now, I could be wrong, or you could be. In this topic anyone could be wrong.

But nice discussion. It is always nice to hear others points.

Originally posted by abhilegend
There was a case for all of these. In case of Korvac it was flat out stated that he was causing imbalance in the multiverse.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dXWdX8WXbBH7i5kSVjkIzChlKGj5fK6kixKiepGlwj-76IAG_1RKzPu_lVoN9LY2H4JrrUy1ZLjuvA=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/E9luKtFC7--uxAqNK0vN7fvZKOQUwExl8oegLtvrUWQSjk-KySFlf3PpYbcR__Lf_DTq9jQFAs9zlw=s1600

Hmm! I hadn't read this comic before! What comic is it?

Now ITS FUNNY! Cause your own comic proofs my point. In the second link you find proofs of my statement.

As you can see already the Tribunal has a case. NOW in this case he is OMNIPOTENT to do anything to bring back Balance.

In the second link, You can see that Korvac has stopped the Tribunal since he is also Omnipotent i think! But again, Now that the Tribunal Has a case, he can do anything and is Second to TOAA at a Multiversal Scale

In the Second link, in the down panels. The Tribunal states that he is the guardian of the entire Multiverse. And since he can't stop the threat within the Universe, He will have to seal that Universe.

The Tribunal didn't lost! It doesn't matter how OMNIPOTENT Korvac is in that Universe he won't be able to do more. The Tribunal has SEALED that Reality from the Rest of the Universe. He has casted Judgement.
So, i don't see why you claim that the Tribunal lost this case?

This is the first time i read those panels and I could already see my Theories gaining strenght.

When you read a comic you don't only need to read the lines but also understand the whole panorama and relate it with the Continuity. That's how you get to understand better the characters and their roles.

The problem is those old comics who say LT > Eternity, is talking about universal eternity, not the "Multiversal Eternity" from Ewing Ultimates...

Another thing, now think about this...God Emperor Doom should be
definitely above Multiversal Eternity right? I guess this is a good hint that he is > LT

Originally posted by leonidas
now you're getting into even more purely speculative areas. eternity as long and often been considered a multiverse. there are many examples of this. but the true multiversal eternity, as was discussed in that famous what if issue was never seen on panel anywhere so we have no idea how powerful he really was. regardless, classic lt was multiversal too, with aspects of himself in all realities. if each aspect was above the universal form of eternity, i don't see why his totality wouldn't be above the multiversal form of eternity. /shrug

as mentioned above, lt was also shown capable of holding megaverses at his classic power levels. there are no proofs of these stances, but that feat would seem to lend support to lt's overall, pre retcon power levels.

This Eternity was seeing in Ultimates from Ewing. He even said that every universe has a Eternity, but the one in chains was the multiversal (he even used the word omniversal eternity).

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
The problem is those old comics who say LT > Eternity, is talking about universal eternity, not the "Multiversal Eternity" from Ewing Ultimates...

Another thing, now think about this...God Emperor Doom should be
definitely above Multiversal Eternity right? I guess this is a good hint that he is > LT

Not really. I wouldn't say that Multiversal Eternity > LT. It would rather be more Multiversal Eternity = LT.

However, as i mentioned in several comments before, LT is still on top when casting Judgement is concerned so i guess Eternity would go down in this area.

Hmmm....IDK! God Emperor Doom should be in par with LT. However God emperor doom > M.E.

The Thing is LT is second to TOAA at a Multiversal Scale. That is pretty clear. So, in that aspect LT is still on top of Multiversal Eternity and Doom. That is ofcourse so long there is a case or trial.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I love good discussions man!

Okay. First of all, the way Universe 6 ended doesn't mean that all universes ended that way. For instance, as we are informed in the Ultimates, the first universe was the First Firmament. But it all ended when the Celestials fought the Aspirants tearing FF appart. This lead to the creation of the 2nd Multiverse (Eternity). Does this mean that the 6th Multiverse (Galactus Universe) ended that way? No. The samething applies here, the 7 Multiverse didn't end up as the 6th, in the same way as the 6th didn't end up like the 1st. So that statement of yours doesnt make much sense.

Now, going back again. The same beyonders told that they were performing an "experiment". Now they never said what the experiment was. However we were let to assume that they wanted to destroy the Multiverse, but did it mean they were gonna leave it destroy? Not really. They could have created a New Multiverse out of the Older one, and therefore giving birth to the 8th Universe. So your point that without the Humans there could have been no 8th Multiverse isn't completely true.

Lets move to the Tribunal once again. Again there was NO CASE! You yourself have proven so! Either way, either am wrong or correct on the point that the Beyonders are a natural thing, still there is no way for a CASE to exist. As you yourself said, the Beyonders are not from the Multiverse. When we say beyonders, we are refering to beings of an Omniversal scale! The Living Tribunal is the keeper of cosmic balance in the Multiverse. Yeah! Lets say you are right and there was a cosmic imbalance; there was reallly none since a cosmic imbalance must happen within the same Multiverse. In this case, the Beyonders don't represent a cosmic imbalance since they don't belong to the Multiverse, therefore there was no Case for the LT to win. See? One way or another the Tribunal had no case.

Now, I know the Beyonders have been around for quite long time. Now, the information we have on them is almost none! Throughout all the topic of the Beyonders we know more about the Cosmic Cubes, MM, The Beyonder, than of the race itself! The only time when we really got to see the Beyonders powers and abilites was at Secret Wars and Time Runs Out, and yet we know little. Won't you agree? When we include the Beyonders in any Topic we can do nothing but SPECULATE. For instance, Who Created Them? What do they want? Where do they live? etc. etc. etc. Its required for us to SPECULATE in this cases.

Yeah am speculating a lot, but speculation becomes THEORIES when there are strong arguments. Now, I could be wrong, or you could be. In this topic anyone could be wrong.

But nice discussion. It is always nice to hear others points.



Hmm! I hadn't read this comic before! What comic is it?

Now ITS FUNNY! Cause your own comic proofs my point. In the second link you find proofs of my statement.

As you can see already the Tribunal has a case. NOW in this case he is OMNIPOTENT to do anything to bring back Balance.

In the second link, You can see that Korvac has stopped the Tribunal since he is also Omnipotent i think! But again, Now that the Tribunal Has a case, he can do anything and is Second to TOAA at a Multiversal Scale

In the Second link, in the down panels. The Tribunal states that he is the guardian of the entire Multiverse. And since he can't stop the threat within the Universe, He will have to seal that Universe.

The Tribunal didn't lost! It doesn't matter how OMNIPOTENT Korvac is in that Universe he won't be able to do more. The Tribunal has SEALED that Reality from the Rest of the Universe. He has casted Judgement.
So, i don't see why you claim that the Tribunal lost this case?

This is the first time i read those panels and I could already see my Theories gaining strenght.

When you read a comic you don't only need to read the lines but also understand the whole panorama and relate it with the Continuity. That's how you get to understand better the characters and their roles.


It's What If v1 32.

Those are some funny mental gymnastics. If LT is second to TOAA while casting his judgment as you say how can Korvac resist his ultimate judgment? Is Korvac TOAA all of a sudden?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111132213/4373250-9897548435-32254.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's What If v1 32.

Those are some funny mental gymnastics. If LT is second to TOAA while casting his judgment as you say how can Korvac resist his ultimate judgment? Is Korvac TOAA all of a sudden?

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111132213/4373250-9897548435-32254.jpg

Ohh i see thanks. Sorry don't get angry but...Arent What If's non canon?

Either way, you didn't read my previous reply. The comic is explaining itself there. The Tribunal can't fight Korvac at its universe cause this has gain Omnipotence it seems. Still it doesn't mean that The Tribunal isn't over him or that has lost the case. The same comic explains that since the tribunal can't stop Korvac at his universe, that now he will SEAL Korvac's universe, ultimately bringing balance back to the Multiverse. So in that aspect Korvac has already lost.


Another instance similar to this is The Living Tribunal vs The Beyonder.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/B%20V%20T_zpsxwjfudam.jpg

This is a similar case in where the Living Tribunal has to seal or confine an Omnipotent being to a single universe. In this case, The Beyonder is forced to stay within its Universe.

We know that the LT is Omnipresence and therefore is able to be at ALL universes at the same time. So, in the Universe of the Beyonder LT is second to the Beyonder. As he himself says, the Beyonder is Omnipotent within its own universe and therefore there is nothing the Tribunal Can do against him (within its own universe). However the LT is still above the Beyonder at a Multiversal Scale and is still Second to TOAA.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I love good discussions man!

Okay. First of all, the way Universe 6 ended doesn't mean that all universes ended that way. For instance, as we are informed in the Ultimates, the first universe was the First Firmament. But it all ended when the Celestials fought the Aspirants tearing FF appart. This lead to the creation of the 2nd Multiverse (Eternity). Does this mean that the 6th Multiverse (Galactus Universe) ended that way? No. The samething applies here, the 7 Multiverse didn't end up as the 6th, in the same way as the 6th didn't end up like the 1st. So that statement of yours doesnt make much sense.

i already showed that the 7th ended unnaturally early... we saw the first was actively destroyed, so....that obviously isn't a natural ending either. the 6th ended without outside interference, hence the reason its ending was natural.



there is no reason to guess at what the beyonders had in store because what i said is manifestly true. the beyonders weren't going to create anything because....they all died. if reed and the others didn't find a way to survive the multiverse wouldn't have been reborn as far as we know. guessing that it may have in some unfounded way doesn't change anything. we saw what happened and how it played out. no speculation needed.



beyonders>lt i agree. the multiverse died prematurely and lt couldn't stop it. why? because the beyonders were too strong. suggesting that the beyonders were toaa's erasers (utterly unfounded), or that toaa willed it to happen (also totally unfounded) is just...excuse making. it's no more insightful than saying the writers let lt lose. well...yeah, no kidding. it's a ludicrous statement and stance.



sure i have no problem with conjecture. but conjecture is not proof, and can't be presented as such. ever.



sure, but i'll side with what has been shown on panel over wide-reaching speculation every time. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
i already showed that the 7th ended unnaturally early... we saw the first was actively destroyed, so....that obviously isn't a natural ending either. the 6th ended without outside interference, hence the reason its ending was natural.

No! The panels you posted in your previous replied weren't clear and showed nothing. I forgot to tell you that. Okay as you said yourself, the ending of the 1st Multiverse isn't natural neither? That means that the Ending of the Multiverse doesn't have to be natural! It can happen in any way! The fact that the Multiverse is ending doesn't mean there is an imbalance! The Tribunal HAD NO CASE. Else prove me otherwise.

Originally posted by leonidas beyonders>lt i agree. the multiverse died prematurely and lt couldn't stop it. why? because the beyonders were too strong. suggesting that the beyonders were toaa's erasers (utterly unfounded), or that toaa willed it to happen (also totally unfounded) is just...excuse making. it's no more insightful than saying the writers let lt lose. well...yeah, no kidding. it's a ludicrous statement and stance.

Again show me where it says that the Multiverse was dying prematurely? Either way, prematurely or not it changes nothing. Take it as a normal organism. There is natural death and there is unnatural death! It is still death and it's a natural thing. No cosmic imbalance broken.

I also answered that point. The Beyonders are from beyond, and not from within the Multiverse. They don't represent a Cosmic Imbalance.

Now, my statement isn't UNFOUNDED. TOAA is from outside the Multiverse just as the Beyonders are. TOAA is as said TOAA. So far we are let to believe he created EVERYTHING and that hasn't change. EVERYTHING still includes the BEYONDERS. The purpose they were created is unknown. I just gave a possible reason.


Originally posted by leonidas sure, but i'll side with what has been shown on panel over wide-reaching speculation every time. /shrug

Ofcourse but since there are NO PANELS to prove or disprove my claims then we need to rely on speculations. And a speculation with evidence to support it but not to prove it is a Theory. And when Theories are concerned the MOST LOGICAL ones are the ones which PREVAIL.

Josh is just going to say whatever in any thread.

In this thread, he points out times that were brought up that LT was shown less powerful than another was because a person became supreme in their own universe, and he's still above them.


But in the Thanos/THOTU thread, he which the comics, the bios, the universe assignement and the editors all say is an alternate universe, he claims is the multiverse, based only on the idea that he was stronger than LT inside said reality.


This is just one of several examples of trying to have it both ways depending on the thread.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ohh i see thanks. Sorry don't get angry but...Arent What If's non canon?

Either way, you didn't read my previous reply. The comic is explaining itself there. The Tribunal can't fight Korvac at its universe cause this has gain Omnipotence it seems. Still it doesn't mean that The Tribunal isn't over him or that has lost the case. The same comic explains that since the tribunal can't stop Korvac at his universe, that now he will SEAL Korvac's universe, ultimately bringing balance back to the Multiverse. So in that aspect Korvac has already lost.


Another instance similar to this is The Living Tribunal vs The Beyonder.

http://http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj531/Josh-Alexander/B%20V%20T_zpsxwjfudam.jpg

This is a similar case in where the Living Tribunal has to seal or confine an Omnipotent being to a single universe. In this case, The Beyonder is forced to stay within its Universe.

We know that the LT is Omnipresence and therefore is able to be at ALL universes at the same time. So, in the Universe of the Beyonder LT is second to the Beyonder. As he himself says, the Beyonder is Omnipotent within its own universe and therefore there is nothing the Tribunal Can do against him (within its own universe). However the LT is still above the Beyonder at a Multiversal Scale and is still Second to TOAA.
At that time LT was singular in multiverse so it's canon for him.

What you say makes no sense. Korvac wasn't omnipotent in that universe, he was threatened by some space ships and committed suicide because of the threat of universe uniting against him.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ DxwNuoxtWLaEP3DtuFENG9Ytw5iSIOYjv9UuOWPBXMPrsOQUSj
h9PptZ7H-XRGs5vDtgb2qDiTHYkA=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Shis-xN- 1Vs3SThJRypFcOrRndj21PH8E1TWUMLFjlE6vqGV0RCWZoXGjJ
4YQ26_E69AkqcYDTuzJg=s1600

Eternity and Death were still more powerful than him.

Beyonder isn't omnipotent in his universe, Kosmos defeated him in his own universe.

Have you actually read these stories?

Originally posted by abhilegend
At that time LT was singular in multiverse so it's canon for him.

What you say makes no sense. Korvac wasn't omnipotent in that universe, he was threatened by some space ships and committed suicide because of the threat of universe uniting against him.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ DxwNuoxtWLaEP3DtuFENG9Ytw5iSIOYjv9UuOWPBXMPrsOQUSj
h9PptZ7H-XRGs5vDtgb2qDiTHYkA=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Shis-xN- 1Vs3SThJRypFcOrRndj21PH8E1TWUMLFjlE6vqGV0RCWZoXGjJ
4YQ26_E69AkqcYDTuzJg=s1600

Eternity and Death were still more powerful than him.

Beyonder isn't omnipotent in his universe, Kosmos defeated him in his own universe.

Have you actually read these stories?

IDK. The thing is that the Tribunal didn't lost. He sealed Korvac's universe. There is nothing Korvac can do to threatened the Multiverse.

Beyonder is Omnipotent in his Universe. The Living Tribunal said it. That ment that the LT won't interfere in the Beyonder's universe. So, lets say that the Beyonder breaks cosmic balance in his OWN UNIVERSE then the Tribunal won't intercede. This However doesn't mean that other entities or beings can chalange the Beyonder in his own Universe.

The panel i posted before said it. Are you reading?

Originally posted by Juntai
Josh is just going to say whatever in any thread.

In this thread, he points out times that were brought up that LT was shown less powerful than another was because a person became supreme in their own universe, and he's still above them.


But in the Thanos/THOTU thread, he which the comics, the bios, the universe assignement and the editors all say is an alternate universe, he claims is the multiverse, based only on the idea that he was stronger than LT inside said reality.


This is just one of several examples of trying to have it both ways depending on the thread.

ehhh.....In no thread have i said that HOTU is a multiversal thing...

Have you read properly my replies?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IDK. The thing is that the Tribunal didn't lost. He sealed Korvac's universe. There is nothing Korvac can do to threatened the Multiverse.


He ran away and forfeited the fight. That's a loss in any sense.

What logic is that? Because LT said it must be true?

Here is Kobik beating and crushing Beyonder in his own universe.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953792-ff319_22.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953793-ff319_23.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953793-ff319_23.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953795-ff319_25.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953796-ff319_28.jpg



Are you? Because this is some of the most inane arguments I've ever seen.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He ran away and forfeited the fight. That's a loss in any sense.

What logic is that? Because LT said it must be true?

Here is Kobik beating and crushing Beyonder in his own universe.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953792-ff319_22.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953793-ff319_23.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953793-ff319_23.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953795-ff319_25.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2953796-ff319_28.jpg



Are you? Because this is some of the most inane arguments I've ever seen.

YES! If the LT said it it is true. After All he is the one to cast judgement. According to the Tribunal the Beyonder is OMNIPOTENT in his universe as i said before. OMNIPOTENT means he can do whatever he wishes.

As i said before. The LT won't interfere in the BEYONDER'S universe. That however doesn't apply for other entities.

Yes and No. Running from Korvac's losing represents a Lose to the Tribunal's at an universal scale. But since he will seal the UNIVERSE from the rest of the MULTIVERSE then it is a win at a MULTIVERSAL SCALE.

Originally posted by Juntai
Josh is just going to say whatever in any thread.

In this thread, he points out times that were brought up that LT was shown less powerful than another was because a person became supreme in their own universe, and he's still above them.


But in the Thanos/THOTU threads hes been in, which the comics, the bios, the universe assignement and the editors all say is an alternate universe, he claims is the multiverse, based only on the idea that he was stronger than LT inside said reality.


This is just one of several examples of trying to have it both ways depending on the thread.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
ehhh.....In no thread have i said that HOTU is a multiversal thing...

Have you read properly my replies? Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

The HOTU is a weapon that allows its weilder to become everyone and anything in the MULTIVERSE. It is considered the power of God, because it basically makes the owner be on top of the Power Hierchy! As seen in the comic, Thanos killed the LT who is second to TOAA. So it means that the HOTU grants it's weilder power over any being in the MULTIVERSE.

Just one example.

Originally posted by Juntai
Just one example.

...okay.....I don't remember saying that. HOTU is an UNIVERSAL thing. I might have been wrong at the time perhaps. IDK

lol

Josh should plead the 5th and stop talking.

???

To be fair, throughout that post, Josh says "multiverse/universe".

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Not universal status, because he was able to defeat the Living Tribunal with it. A universal status weapon isn't above the Tribunal. For instance, the Infinity Gaunlet is a universal status weapon, for there is 1 gaunlet in each universe. An the Tribunal is above these. The HOTU however was able to defeat everything, tribunal and everything. He wiped out the Multiverse. There was only Thanos, in empty space. Then he set everything back, and gave up his powers.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The fact of him defeating the Tribunal is prove enought that he did erased the entire Multiverse. The Tribunal never steps into a quarrel unless it threatens the Multiverse, and that has been pretty much stated several times through the comics. THE TRIBUNAL'S ROLE IS TO KEEP THE BALANCE IN THE MULTIVERSE. If the HOTU wouldn't have threatened this, the Tribunal wouldn't have appeared in the first place!

?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
YES! If the LT said it it is true. After All he is the one to cast judgement. According to the Tribunal the Beyonder is OMNIPOTENT in his universe as i said before. OMNIPOTENT means he can do whatever he wishes.


Except he got beaten by Kubik in his own universe. So he isn't omnipotent.

What are you even talking about now?

Huh? Korvac didn't even try to break the seal and he had already sealed off his universe from any alternate reality. It was LT who ran away.

Lol @Juntai and Josh.

Good post. Sometimes, people forget that the search function exists.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol @Juntai and Josh.

Good post. Sometimes, people forget that the search function exists. Doesn't even really take that. Those and others are all in the last few weeks.

Originally posted by Juntai


Originally posted by Juntai



Yeah my bad. That comic was refering to a single universe. I misunderstood the comic. My bad.

I forgot that the LT is Omnipresent being at all Universes. Back then i thought that beating the Tribunal was beating the Multiverse. Now i see that is not entirely true. The more you read comics your perspective on characters gets shaped and sometimes transformed.

Honestly i didnt even remember saying that. I admit it i was wrong in saying that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except he got beaten by Kubik in his own universe. So he isn't omnipotent.

What are you even talking about now?

Huh? Korvac didn't even try to break the seal and he had already sealed off his universe from any alternate reality. It was LT who ran away.

He is Omnipresent. He sealed Korvacs universe. No matter how powerful Korvac gets he wont be able to get out of his Universe. Just like the Beyonder wont be of any harm to the other Universes.

While beings like Korvac and the Beyonder are omnipotent at a Universal level the LT is omnipotent at a Multiversal level. Its logic Abhilegend

The only times the LT has really lost is vs the Beyonders and Chaos And Order. And those time i have already explained why.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He is Omnipresent. He sealed Korvacs universe. No matter how powerful Korvac gets he wont be able to get out of his Universe. Just like the Beyonder wont be of any harm to the other Universes.


Except Korvac never tried to break the seal.

Beyonder obviously went out of his universe and harmed other universes.

Neither of these beings are omnipotent on any scale.

He was defeated by an alternate Reed Richards as well.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Except Korvac never tried to break the seal.

Beyonder obviously went out of his universe and harmed other universes.

Neither of these beings are omnipotent on any scale.

He was defeated by an alternate Reed Richards as well.

Even if he would he couldnt. And we are jumping into What-Ifs now.

Yeah. Then LT sealed him.

LT is Omnipotent at a multiversal scale when casting Judgement. He is neigh Omnipotent cause there are certain times when there is judgement and his powers are limitted by this.

You said so...alternate.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Even if he would he couldnt. And we are jumping into What-Ifs now.


What ifs are canon to classic LT.

Yet Beyonder still went out of his universe.

There is no such distinction in the comics. You're just making it up.

There was no alternate LT until Starlin retconned it. It's all canon to him as there was only one LT in multiverse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What ifs are canon to classic LT.

Yet Beyonder still went out of his universe.

There is no such distinction in the comics. You're just making it up.

There was no alternate LT until Starlin retconned it. It's all canon to him as there was only one LT in multiverse.

When i said What If i was meaning speculations.

The is not but it is implied. You dont just read the comic. You analyze it.

LT still beats Joker and is still above Beyonder and Korvac. As he has showned to be. He sealed his universes. He won the trial. No being jas avoided his judgement. Not until now.

.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
When i said What If i was meaning speculations.

The is not but it is implied. You dont just read the comic. You analyze it.

LT still beats Joker and is still above Beyonder and Korvac. As he has showned to be. He sealed his universes. He won the trial. No being jas avoided his judgement. Not until now.


Repeating yourself wouldn't make you right.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Repeating yourself wouldn't make you right.

Nor will you! HAHA. lol.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Nor will you! HAHA. lol.
But I'm right. Always right.

Originally posted by abhilegend
But I'm right. Always right. False.

And nobody gives a shit to why Beyonder was half a cosmic cube or why he was amped and still lost to Molecule Man.

You're still crying over LT running away like a ***** from Korvac? Get used to it, it's his go to tactic.

That was before the retcon. After retcon both Beyonder and Molecule Man were separate cube beings.

Don't tell me you haven't actually read it.

When did Tribunal erase a single universe? Scans?

ka-dur

Troll on! You wont waste my time any further.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Troll on! You wont waste my time any further.
Concession accepted. Run away master.

LT is still 2nd to TOAA in terms of a Multiversal Scale.

That still puts LT above Multiversal Eternities!!

No, he isn't. Beyonders are more powerful and so is Scathan.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Troll on! You wont waste my time any further.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he isn't. Beyonders are more powerful and so is Scathan.

It takes three Beyonders to beat him. He is above Scathan.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
It takes three Beyonders to beat him. He is above Scathan.
LT didn't beat a single Beyonder though. It didn't take 3 beyonders to kill him. They curbstomped him.

He is not above Scathan.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, he isn't. Beyonders are more powerful and so is Scathan.

Originally posted by abhilegend
LT didn't beat a single Beyonder though. It didn't take 3 beyonders to kill him. They curbstomped him.

He is not above Scathan.

Remind you this thread doesnt concern with LT vs Scathan.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Remind you this thread doesnt concern with LT vs Scathan.
No, it is not.