Two Atheists Visit the Ark Encounter...

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
This is pretty entertaining...

Perhaps. I am left wondering to what degree facts are misrepresented on the atheist side when viewing material like this, though.

For instance, somewhere near the very beginning, the narrator comments on what he perceives as wood warping, and speculates that a Biblical Ark, going by this model, would be inherently unable to weather even a tiny fraction of the stresses Genesis implies.

This ignores how variable the climate of Kentucky is and what even one period of winter contraction and expansion can do to something meant to handle apparently near uniform Middle East climes.

Omitting even a major consideration like that altogether...

Wikipedia had the following to say:

"Whenever possible, the builders employed techniques from the ancient era, such as manually bending the wood for the rudder rather than steaming it to make it more pliable ...

While the builders originally planned to hold the ark together with wooden pegs, modern building codes required the builders to use steel fasteners, thus 95 tons of metal plates and bolts were used to connect the wood together ...

Much of the wood used to build the Ark Encounter was sourced from renewable forests or trees infested by beetles ..."

So, we have manually bent wood, weighted down by tons of steel which may or may not have been bored through by insects, seen for the first time by 2 visitors who may or may not be viewing the structure after North American winter.

And this thing presumably cared for like a building, and not like a ship, which historically gets applications of various materials, tar, pitch, etcetera, to protect the wood and keep it seaworthy.

Something's wrong when none of these considerations are even mentioned.
I wonder how many people will take even 20 seconds to think about things like that.

SamZED

I don't think they were trying to accuratately assess whether this arc would float. They were just mocking it. And it's a well deserved mockery if people really spent 100 mil on it.

Surtur

Originally posted by SamZED
I don't think they were trying to accuratately assess whether this arc would float. They were just mocking it. And it's a well deserved mockery if people really spent 100 mil on it.

Lol wait, what. Surely you mean they spent 100 million...pennies on it? No way people would spend 100 million dollars to create this kind of exhibit.

Or if they did...surely it has to be because they expect to make vastly more money off of it than the original amount they spend.

Patient_Leech

^ Didn't you see the ticket and parking prices!? $40 and I think they said $10 for parking. I'm sure Jesus would disapprove of this nonsense just as he did the moneychangers in the temple.

This makes me want to watch Noah again. A depiction of the classic story by an atheist that apparently ruffled fundy feathers, heh...

Patient_Leech

Also from the Wikipedia page...

This is how theocracy sneaks in, folks. It's a slippery slope.

SamZED

Originally posted by Surtur
Lol wait, what. Surely you mean they spent 100 million...pennies on it? No way people would spend 100 million dollars to create this kind of exhibit.

Or if they did...surely it has to be because they expect to make vastly more money off of it than the original amount they spend.
100 mil is the figure they've mentioned in the video. Maybe I heard it wrong. Can't be bothered to check. Regardless, if they made more money and donated it to a good cause I wouldn't have a problem with it. Or if they built an amusement park instead to make some money for themselves.. again, no problem. Except this isn't an amusement park. They are teaching fake history to kids. The question is - are they at least using the money they're making for a just cause to balance out the damage that they're doing.

Afro Cheese

Smarmy and boring. Good for them, they decided to waste their time and money to stroke their own intellectual egos.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Smarmy and boring. Good for them, they decided to waste their time and money to stroke their own intellectual egos.

But wasting time and taxpayer money to indulge a superstitious fantasy is a stairway to heaven, right?

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Surtur
they expect to make vastly more money off of it than the original amount they spend.

Yep.

Average business, iirc, takes about 3 years to recoup its initial investment.

Assuming the average of 1 million visitors per year that showed up between July 2016 and July 2017, at $40 per ticket, Hamm and company should be well on their way.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ Didn't you see the ticket and parking prices!? $40 and I think they said $10 for parking.

Financially speaking, SamZED made a better analogy than he probably knew.

Compare the ticket and parking prices for amusement parks like Cedar Point and Kings Island. You'll find the Ark Museum prices are actually a little cheaper (Cedar Point, for instance, charges 43 to 52 dollars for an adult ticket.)

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yep.

Average business, iirc, takes about 3 years to recoup its initial investment.

Assuming the average of 1 million visitors per year that showed up between July 2016 and July 2017, at $40 per ticket, Hamm and company should be well on their way.

The Ark Encounter has yet to reach 1 million visitors total. According to their own estimates, they have only had 645,000 guests since it opened in 2016. Things are so bad the county that extended the $60 million in tax incremental funding and $18 million in sales tax rebates is now facing bankruptcy. Meanwhile, the owners tried to sell the Ark Encounter to a non-profit Christian ministry for $1 to avoid paying taxes altogether. It is an embarrassing shitshow all the way around.

bluewaterrider

Robtard

Even then it doesn't look good, cos a sizeable portion of that income is eaten away by operation cost, as Ken Ham isn't running and maintaining the park all by himself, there's staff payroll, repairs, maintenance, electricity, water, insurance etc to pay.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by SamZED
it's a well deserved mockery if people really spent 100 mil on it.

I used to think like this when I was younger.
Actually, to some extent, I still do.

My parents and grandparents and great-grandparents used to complain about cost all the time, and, in some cases, wondered how they would make ends meet. Now I live in a world where the cost of things is sometimes 4 or 5 times the amount they used to decry.

100 million dollars sure would sound like a lot to me ...
IF my own home City of Detroit hadn't spent an estimated THREE hundred million on Ford Field and Lions Stadium just a few years back.

Similarly, a $40 ticket would seem outrageous ...
Until I remember tickets to amusement parks and ball games cost easily as much and usually more.

Check out the estimated cost for a Football Family night, for some perspective:

"Chicago-based Team Marketing Report last week issued its annual Fan Cost Index that measures the estimated cost for taking a family of four to NFL games, based on surveys provided by each club.

For the Lions, the average was $411.94. That is calculated from the cost of four average-price tickets, two cheapest-priced draft beers, four cheapest soft drinks, four cheapest hot dogs, parking for one car, two game programs and two least-expensive, adult-size adjustable caps.

NFL teams must share some revenue with the rest of the league, while keeping other money ..."

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20140907/NEWS/309079972/lions-attendance-consistent-if-not-team

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Robtard
Even then it doesn't look good, cos a sizeable portion of that income is eaten away by operation cost, as Ken Ham isn't running and maintaining the park all by himself, there's staff payroll, repairs, maintenance, electricity, water, insurance etc to pay.

You're actually stating the case for why many Kentuckians DON'T consider that 100 million wasted. It gives back to a large staff and local businesses.

Each item cost you mention represents wages for a tour guide, or a curator, or a janitor, or a repairman, or a plumber, or an electrician, or a welder, or a groundskeeper, or a serviceman, even as earlier it was employment for lumberjacks (or whatever name they go by now), carpenters and wood craftsmen, construction workers, engineers, and county road commissions.

Money spent is not paper destroyed. It's paper redistributed throughout local governments and community.

Certainly the nearby counties view it that way. Again, from Wikipedia:

-- On February 24, 2017, Executive Director of the Grant County Chamber of Commerce Jamie Baker asserted that the Ark had drawn additional tourism to the area, and that the challenge now was to expand accommodation and other local amenities in order to convert this into economic growth for the county.

-- In March, the Northern Kentucky Convention and Visitors Bureau presented the Ark Encounter with its Star of Tourism award for 2016.

-- Bureau President Eric Summe reported a $23 million increase in visitor spending in nearby Boone, Kenton, and Campbell counties in 2016 over 2015, the year that the region hosted the Major League Baseball All-Star Game; Summe attributed a large part of the increase in spending and hotel occupancy to the opening of the Ark Encounter and an expansion of its sister attraction, AiG's Creation Museum.

-- In June 2017, Mayor Jim Wells of Dry Ridge, Kentucky stated that the Ark Encounter had a positive effect on the town, with hotel occupancy rates increasing from 60 to 98 percent since the opening of the attraction

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'd be interested in seeing the page you got your stats from.
On Wikipedia, at least, the number is an estimated 1 million.

Ken Ham himself only reports 500,000 visitors, but a representative for the Ark Encounter placed it at 645,000. Their numbers.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're actually stating the case for why many Kentuckians DON'T consider that 100 million wasted. It gives back to a large staff and local businesses.

Each item cost you mention represents wages for a tour guide, or a curator, or a janitor, or a repairman, or a plumber, or an electrician, or a welder, or a groundskeeper, or a serviceman, even as earlier it was employment for lumberjacks (or whatever name they go by now), carpenters and wood craftsmen, construction workers, engineers, and county road commissions.

Money spent is not paper destroyed. It's paper redistributed throughout local governments and community.

Certainly the nearby counties view it that way. Again, from Wikipedia:

-- On February 24, 2017, Executive Director of the Grant County Chamber of Commerce Jamie Baker asserted that the Ark had drawn additional tourism to the area, and that the challenge now was to expand accommodation and other local amenities in order to convert this into economic growth for the county.

-- In March, the Northern Kentucky Convention and Visitors Bureau presented the Ark Encounter with its Star of Tourism award for 2016.

-- Bureau President Eric Summe reported a $23 million increase in visitor spending in nearby Boone, Kenton, and Campbell counties in 2016 over 2015, the year that the region hosted the Major League Baseball All-Star Game; Summe attributed a large part of the increase in spending and hotel occupancy to the opening of the Ark Encounter and an expansion of its sister attraction, AiG's Creation Museum.

-- In June 2017, Mayor Jim Wells of Dry Ridge, Kentucky stated that the Ark Encounter had a positive effect on the town, with hotel occupancy rates increasing from 60 to 98 percent since the opening of the attraction

Most of the Ark Encounter staff are part-time, so it is not creating the sort of jobs that were promised. Moreover, the neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy for footing the $100 million bill for the Ark Encounter which is not delivering the economic growth promised.

Surtur

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Ken Ham himself only reports 500,000 visitors, but a representative for the Ark Encounter placed it at 645,000. Their numbers.

Yes, but your numbers are taken from FEBRUARY of this year, are they not?
Whereas mine are taken from July 2017.

I should like to think the park did SOME business in that 5 month period ...

https://s7d1.turboimg.net/t1/36199508_image.jpg

Originally posted by Adam_PoE

Most of the Ark Encounter staff are part-time, so it is not creating the sort of jobs that were promised. Moreover, the neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy for footing the $100 million bill for the Ark Encounter which is not delivering the economic growth promised.

You typoed and put that they are NOT facing bankruptcy. Which is probably, ironically, correct.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Surtur
That is a lot of assumptions. Any actual fact you wanna hit me with in terms of their money making?

Bam.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2017/07/25/ark-encounter-local-tax-scandal-not-very-scandalous/?s=trending#31b65c0f1365

Afro Cheese

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
But wasting time and taxpayer money to indulge a superstitious fantasy is a stairway to heaven, right? This place was publically funded?

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Yes, but your numbers are taken from FEBRUARY of this year, are they not?
Whereas mine are taken from July 2017.

I should like to think the park did SOME business in that 5 month period ...

No, mine are from May. But let us presume for the sake of argument they are from February. If the Ark Encounter only had a total of 645,000 visitors from the time it opened in 2016 to the time of that reporting, do you honestly believe it doubled that number in attendance in only five months? They have yet to make their attendance goals, nor are they on track to. They need more than double their reported attendance to be financially viable. Hence, why they are trying to commit fraudulent tax avoidance schemes to get out of paying what they owe the county.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You typoed and put that they are NOT facing bankruptcy. Which is probably, ironically, correct.

It is not a typo, your reading comprehension is poor. The neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy, because the neighboring counties did not finance the Ark Encounter. Meanwhile, the county that did is facing bankruptcy.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
This place was publically funded?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Things are so bad the county that extended the $60 million in tax incremental funding and $18 million in sales tax rebates is now facing bankruptcy.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Adam_PoE

It is not a typo, your reading comprehension is poor. The neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy, because the neighboring counties did not finance the Ark Encounter. Meanwhile, the county that did is facing bankruptcy.

You should really just admit you meant to type "now" where you instead typed "not", Adam. I CAN be goaded by the proper type of insult catching me at the right moment in proper circumstances, mind you, but this one ain't it, not when I know that is your intent, when you've already been caught in error, and when anyone who cares can see what you typed on the previous page.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE

Most of the Ark Encounter staff are part-time, so it is not creating the sort of jobs that were promised. Moreover, the neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy for footing the $100 million bill for the Ark Encounter which is not delivering the economic growth promised.

Afro Cheese

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
quote Oh I didn't see that. And tbh I don't really know what incremental funding or sales tax rebates actually mean.

Robtard

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You're actually stating the case for why many Kentuckians DON'T consider that 100 million wasted. It gives back to a large staff and local businesses.

Each item cost you mention represents wages for a tour guide, or a curator, or a janitor, or a repairman, or a plumber, or an electrician, or a welder, or a groundskeeper, or a serviceman, even as earlier it was employment for lumberjacks (or whatever name they go by now), carpenters and wood craftsmen, construction workers, engineers, and county road commissions.

Money spent is not paper destroyed. It's paper redistributed throughout local governments and community.

Certainly the nearby counties view it that way. Again, from Wikipedia:

-- On February 24, 2017, Executive Director of the Grant County Chamber of Commerce Jamie Baker asserted that the Ark had drawn additional tourism to the area, and that the challenge now was to expand accommodation and other local amenities in order to convert this into economic growth for the county.

-- In March, the Northern Kentucky Convention and Visitors Bureau presented the Ark Encounter with its Star of Tourism award for 2016.

-- Bureau President Eric Summe reported a $23 million increase in visitor spending in nearby Boone, Kenton, and Campbell counties in 2016 over 2015, the year that the region hosted the Major League Baseball All-Star Game; Summe attributed a large part of the increase in spending and hotel occupancy to the opening of the Ark Encounter and an expansion of its sister attraction, AiG's Creation Museum.

-- In June 2017, Mayor Jim Wells of Dry Ridge, Kentucky stated that the Ark Encounter had a positive effect on the town, with hotel occupancy rates increasing from 60 to 98 percent since the opening of the attraction

Creating jobs is a good thing, yes. But not if it's going to be short-term because the park has to declare bankruptcy and the following financial backlash that comes with that when the state/county/tax payers are left holding nothing but their dicks. Do you even economics? I don't think you even economics a little bit.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No, mine are from May. But let us presume for the sake of argument they are from February. If the Ark Encounter only had a total of 645,000 visitors from the time it opened in 2016 to the time of that reporting, do you honestly believe it doubled that number in attendance in only five months? They have yet to make their attendance goals, nor are they on track to. They need more than double their reported attendance to be financially viable. Hence, why they are trying to commit fraudulent tax avoidance schemes to get out of paying what they owe the county.

The man from the Forbes article I linked Surtur to explains why those tax fraud charges are a misrepresentation. For that matter, what Ark moneyship was arguing was that the 50 cent per ticket sold tax, amounting to between 500,000 and 700,000 dollars, was an UNFAIR tax to blindside the business with, let alone charge solely to a business when apparently not one resident in that town of 4,000 was paying anything.

For your first question?

Actually I DO believe, if the Ark had at least 600,000 by February, that it was able to attract 400,000 in the 5 months remaining. SamZED's comparison of the place to an amusement park was apt in more than 1 way. Previously we pointed out the ticket and parking prices are comparable, with the Ark prices being slightly cheaper. But there is good reason to suspect, as in the case of amusement parks, that the bulk of adult paying customers come in the warmer months, not the winter time. How much business did Cedar Point see in December 2016? How much did the Ark? I'd wager neither place did nearly the fiscal business they conducted in May 2017.

The other thing is, like Cedar Point and King's Island, the Ark does more business as advertising and customer awareness of the business's existence increases.

And something definitely happened between the time of February of this year and July 2017, if the time stamp of the following clip (March 2017) is any indication.

From many accounts, Bill Nye proved a better advertisement of the place than Matthew Lesko for government money:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PPLRhVdNp5M

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Robtard
Creating jobs is a good thing, yes. But not if it's going to be short-term because the park has to declare bankruptcy and the following financial backlash that comes with that when the state/county/tax payers are left holding nothing but their dicks. Do you even economics? I don't think you even economics a little bit.

Took Macroeconomics several years ago.
Learned that over 60% of our money supply doesn't even exist in a tangible form, that price serves as a means of discrimination regarded as acceptable by the bulk of the world's population, that it helps establish property rights without undue violence, and that it helps coordinate human labor.

Are you a teacher of economics? I'll listen to anyone who makes a good case.

However, what I'm seeing here is you ASSUMING that the Ark is underwater now and about to go out of business from the most casual of hearsay. I've yet to see any evidence that such is true.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
You should really just admit you meant to type "now" where you instead typed "not", Adam. I CAN be goaded by the proper type of insult catching me at the right moment in proper circumstances, mind you, but this one ain't it, not when I know that is your intent, when you've already been caught in error, and when anyone who cares can see what you typed on the previous page.

You stated that "neighboring counties" do not see the tax incremental funding and sales tax rebates gifted to the Ark Encounter to the tune of nearly $100 million dollars as "wasted," and then proceeded to list anecdotes from businesses in neighboring counties that appear to support that.

And I pointed out that the neighboring counties did not foot the bill, so their benefitting from the Ark Encounter is totally irrelevant. The county that did fund the attraction is not seeing the promised return on its investment, so much so, that it is now facing bankruptcy.

Hence, the neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy, but they did not foot the bill either.

Wanna try that again?

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You stated that "neighboring counties" do not see the tax incremental funding and sales tax rebates gifted to the Ark Encounter to the tune of nearly $100 million dollars as "wasted," and then proceeded to list anecdotes from businesses in neighboring counties that appear to support that.

And I pointed out that the neighboring counties did not foot the bill, so their benefitting from the Ark Encounter is totally irrelevant. The county that did fund the attraction is not seeing the promised return on its investment, so much so, that it is now facing bankruptcy.

Hence, the neighboring counties are not facing bankruptcy, but they did not foot the bill either.

Wanna try that again?

Of course. I'm curious to know just how much a person needs to investigate before they get actual useful lessons and information from a forum like this.

So in good faith I went on and Googled "Ken Ham ark county bankruptcy".

That returned the following hit, and I think I may have finally found the source you were using for your info:

http://www.wkyt.com/content/news/Grant-Co-leaders-Ark-Encounter-doesnt-live-up--414791203.html

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The Ark Encounter has yet to reach 1 million visitors total. According to their own estimates, they have only had 645,000 guests since it opened in 2016. Things are so bad the county that extended the $60 million in tax incremental funding and $18 million in sales tax rebates is now facing bankruptcy.

So the Ark apparently reached 1 million visitors a few months ago; your numbers are from February, as shown earlier.

The County you refer to is apparently Grant County.
You present their near-bankruptcy as a result of helping the Ark building, and, indeed, at least one reporter on a video clip I watched on the subject this evening did so, too.

However, most of the articles I've read tell me that Grant County was in decline to begin with, interestingly enough, blame is placed most on the mismanagement of their prison system and police force. I'm curious as to what kind of crime a community of only 4,000 people could possibly have, but, such is a topic for a little later.

In the meantime, I'm saving the following as a decent, fairly informative link on the subject:

http://www.kentucky.com/news/state/article154014269.html

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Took Macroeconomics several years ago.
Learned that over 60% of our money supply doesn't even exist in a tangible form, that price serves as a means of discrimination regarded as acceptable by the bulk of the world's population, that it helps establish property rights without undue violence, and that it helps coordinate human labor ...

Thought of the following, during/before writing the above:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9YV-8xtcfvM