Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Was Dooku resisting Sidious's Force choke or not? Did Dooku believe his position as the leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems and a valid apprentice within the Banite line make him disposable for simply making a mistake?

Talk about a loaded poll question, rofl.

Sidious wouldn't kill Dooku for defending himself from an attack, lmao.

The argument that Dooku could have resisted, but failed to do so because reason, doesn't have a single piece of evidence sans fan-made assumptions.

Re-reading the poll, I realized the question is laughably misleading.

No one thinks Dooku resisted Sidious' choke.

Of course he wouldn't kill him. But he would definitely make his punishment worse for doing so.

It's just logic. If Dooku didn't betray Dooku the moment before his death why would he resist a punishment that would only become worse if he did so?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Re-reading the poll, I realized the question is laughably misleading.

No one thinks Dooku resisted Sidious' choke.

Since you're being nitpicky...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=646035

Regardless, I think it's clear that they were trying to show that Palpatine and Dooku are in separate leagues. Not a fan of the way TCW tended to portray their relationship since they were more friend-like in AotC and even OCW, but obviously when Palpatine gets pissed Dooku is his b!tch. That's not really up for debate.

As for whether or not he tried to resist, he probably instinctively did to a degree at the very least, but again that's neither here nor there.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Regardless, I think it's clear that they were trying to show that Palpatine and Dooku are in separate leagues. Not a fan of the way TCW tended to portray their relationship since they were more friend-like in AotC and even OCW, but obviously when Palpatine gets pissed Dooku is his b!tch. That's not really up for debate.

As for whether or not he tried to resist, he probably instinctively did to a degree at the very least, but again that's neither here nor there. Sheev still called him "my friend" in the first seasons of TCW. From what I've noticed, Sheev became increasingly annoyed with him from mid TCW on.

But you're right; the intent was to show how Dooku is always at his mercy.

@Nova: That's not what's being debated. Ant can argue whatever holistic shit he wants in regards to Sidious/Dooku. What I have a problem with is his assumption that Dooku would automatically expect Sidious to execute him for f*cking up despite being his most important tool in keeping the CIS under his control so that he can effectively manipulate both sides of the war ( and Dooku knowing this fact ).

That's... not really my stance.

I'm indifferent on if Dooku resisted or not, although I do believe he did and was under the impression he was about to die. That's conveyed through the dialogue and facial expressions of Dooku.

What's more relevant is, as Nova pointed out, the obvious intent of the action, which I find commonly in dispute. The idea Dooku was just caught off guard and stood there and thus the feat means nothing, which many claim, is just idiotic.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm indifferent on if Dooku resisted or not, although I do believe he did and was under the impression he was about to die. That's conveyed through the dialogue and facial expressions of Dooku. What's more relevant is, as Nova pointed out, the obvious intent of the action, which I find commonly in dispute. The idea Dooku was just caught off guard and stood there and thus the feat means nothing, which many claim, is just idiotic.

And why is that? Why would it be idiotic to assume that Dooku would not resist Sidious's Force choke when he's shown to be completely subservient to Sidious in YDR and didn't even say anything to prevent his own death in RotS?

@Nova: Completely agreed.

It's idotic to assume that plus the feat is irrelevant and that Filoni wasn't blatantly trying to show Dooku is Sidious' *****.

If you recognize the intent, then whether or not Dooku did this or that is irrelevant.

You know I don't give a f*ck about you or anyone else's fan interpretation of author intentions which is why you're being such a stubborn brat about this despite it being clear, not only from Dooku's actions in TCW but other mediums as well, that he wouldn't have offered any true resistance against an admonishment by Sidious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If you recognize the intent, then whether or not Dooku did this or that is irrelevant.

I don't recognize the intent because I don't agree with your fan interpretation of what Filoni was thinking when he wrote that scene.

Hm? You're the one who seems pretty upset I think Dooku is Sidious' ***** - I don't think that's necessarily me being a "brat."

We know from ROTJ that Sidious' method of punishment is "far less forgiving" than someone who executes his subordinates for one mistake.

The line, "you know the price of failure" is a blatant reference to that line, with the context that Dooku had failed Sidious multiple times over.

My apologies that I'm not convinced Dooku would just stand there and allow Sidious to presumably execute him. That's not to say Sidious can automatically choke Dooku, though, since he can't - breaking free of choke and avoiding choke in the first place are distinctively seperate concepts.

I think you trying to pass off shitty reasoning you gave less then half a second of though to as fact is pretty "bratty" but maybe that's just me.

The thing is, you're comparing Vader's method of dealing with fodder stormtroopers to Sidious dealing with the person who he maintains control of the CIS with. They're not comparable.

THe line "you know the price of failure" means that Dooku's failed Sidious beforehand and was reprimanded in a way that was obviously not fatal. Even going by your logic and assuming Sidious is capable of carrying out a punishment on Dooku against his will, Dooku gains nothing from resisting since that would only make his punishment worse with Sidious being capable of carrying out these punishments against Dooku's will. Either way your position doesn't make any sense.

It's your assumption that Dooku's retarded enough to think he's be executed for making a mistake that's maddening.

Not at all. I've thought about this since the summer of last year where the counter argument (aka yours) was introduced by Ellimist.

The premise that Dooku just allowed Sidious to do whatever he wanted and yet visibly tried to break free from the choke are mutually exclusive, in my eyes.

Also, it's not that Dooku is retarded and thinks he's about to die, it's that a Sidious just told Dooku that he's going to punish him with a fate worse than death (i.e. the price of failure).

Yeah because an automatic physical reaction and a willful act of defiance are completely mutually exclusive. :/

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, it's not that Dooku is retarded and thinks he's about to die, it's that a Sidious just told Dooku that he's going to punish him with a fate worse than death (i.e. the price of failure).

Where has "the price of failure" been indicated to be "a fate worse then death?"

Resisting someone when you're already in a chokehold isn't the same as doing it before a chokehold. That Sids choked Dooku itself is not a valid indication he's vastly more powerful.

Regardless, you could well argue for the holistic intent of the scene here to show that ids is much greater Dooku. That AOTC Yoda can't ragdoll Dooku says nothing about what ROTS Yoda or Sidious could do.

Assuming there is a formidable gap between AotC Yoda and RotS Yoda... Which I don't.

It's not hard to believe. A lot of quotes suggest Yoda and Tyranus were relatively close both in the Force and in sabers in AotC. By RotS, Yoda's matching someone who is an entire level above Dooku in sabers and who scares the Count shitless as a hologram.

There's even quotes directly saying that Yoda's fighting a completely different beast in Sidious than in Dooku. Given both fights were quite close, I think it's clear that Yoda improved. And that can be rationalised by stuff like him being prompted to hone his skills to a greater degree with the reemergence of the Sith, his meeting the Force Priestesses and increasing study of the Living Force, etc.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yeah because an automatic physical reaction and a willful act of defiance are completely mutually exclusive. :/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDeg7K9NrCw&t=035s

Yeah, I'm not buying this is purely instinctual, lmfao.

If Dooku is actively not resisting to avoid future punishment, I'd imagine seeing Dooku attempting to move his hands to his side, not increasing claw at his neck for breath.

@Nova: That's not unreasonable to assume. I guess I just don't believe the gap between AotC and RotS Yoda is as big as you or Rocky.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDeg7K9NrCw&t=035s

Yeah, I'm not buying this is purely instinctual, lmfao.

If Dooku is actively not resisting to avoid future punishment, I'd imagine seeing Dooku attempting to move his hands to his side, not increasing claw at his neck for breath.

So you're saying you think Dooku believed physically clawing at his throat would stop a psychic attack from across the galaxy? LMFAO.

Either way clawing at his throat would be a useless movement. He's doing it because he's panicking. It's not a rational reaction.

That's not the point. The point is you think Dooku wants to show Sidious he's subservient to him, which is unsupported by the idea of Dooku doing this.

If we want to go the route of purely instinctual defenses, then Dooku should likewise be instinctively resisting him with the Force as well, so that's irrelevant.

No, I think Dooku wants to show Sidious he's not going to actively resist the punishment so he doesn't incur worse. Showing pain and shock at the punishment isn't "resisting" it. It's the natural reaction to pain/injury. If Dooku had been stoic while Sidious was choking him that wouldn't only brought on further punishment since Sidious's goal is to show he's dominant and he wants Dooku in a vulnerable/debased state.

Sure. I never said Sidious was incapable of piercing his passive Force defenses ( he would have had to ) to have Force choked him. What I don't agree with is Sidious being able to do this when Dooku is actively resisting him.

-> Dark Rendevous, Yoda lets go of his one true attachment in Dooku
-> Season 6, Yoda goes and passes a variety of mental trials including a methaphorical clash with Sidious himself regarding the future of everything he's worked towards and perfects his spirit

With that in mind:

As Yoda went through massive confontations between AOTC and ROTS, he would have grown more powerful.

Sure. I don't think it would have been enough for Dooku giving him a decent fight to Yoda stomping him though.

Remember in the first edition of the Vader comic when he pins Sheev against the wall? He was stuck like that for a few windows. Only after Vader switched to trying to choke him was Palpatine actually able to resist. And then only after Vader dropped his attack was he free. If Vader, who's clearly inferior to his master at this point, was able to do that why do people make a deal out of Dooku's an hero moment?

Obviously it doesn't take much to get through someone's passive force barriers (if they exist at all in canon) and once you're through, there is very little you can actually do to get out as shown by the Vader comic.

Canon functions differently then Legends. Force defenses honestly probably don't even exist.

You're missing the point. You conceded Dooku is instinctively "resisting" him in the form of physically clawing for breath.

Why would Dooku not be instinctively defending himself via the Force too if he's not in a rational state, as per yourself?

Why would Dooku have control over his powers but not his body in this situation?

---

I'll outline my thoughts toward you, again, since it seems you're some how still baffled.

If there is reason for me to believe Dooku is just allowing Sidious to choke him, then I would believe it.

The premise is not remotely indicated in the actual material - it's fully submerged in the territory of an unsupported theory.

---

Dooku actively trying to resist Sidious is supported three-fold.

1.) Sidious, while choking Dooku, tells him that Dooku had failed him many times in the past and that he knows the price of failure. The only direct logical continuation of this is that Sidious is telling Dooku that he's about to die - or worse, which, when considered the character of Sidious and how Episode 6 portays him, is clearly "the price of failure." Dooku's preconceived importance is irrelevant if Sidious is telling Dooku he's about to execute him. Sidious spares Dooku, though, meaning his threat applies if Dooku fails to fix the Sifo-Dyas crisis. When considered, if Sidious is effectively telling Dooku it's punishment time, or in other words death, Dooku is going to be trying to avoid this fate.

2.) Dooku is visibly clawing to escape. The premise that Filoni wanted to show Dooku being subservient to Sidious and yet still put in animation of Dooku grasping his neck is... illogical. One should always consider the intent of the scene, in which it's clear to me that, if Filoni wanted to show what you're trying to argue, he wouldn't have done it the way he did, regardless of instinctual reactions.

3.) If Dooku is instinctively reacting physically, why the hell would he not be instinctively reacting via the Force? Dooku would be pushing against Sidious or doing whatever he can to escape instinctively, since you even noted he's not thinking logically at the minute - just out of pure self-preservation (hence the clawing at neck).

Frankly, I'm not sure why you even care I have this stance. Vader was capable of pinning Sidious to a wall and Sidious wasn't able to escape. In Canon, it's incredibly difficult to escape a Force attack when it's applied on you anyhow. This doesn't make Dooku look any less impressive, although the scene clearly wants to portray that Dooku is Sidious' *****. I understand you don't care for authorial intent - well you do but mostly only when it suits you - but I do, so clearly my stance on this is going to be rooted under that premise. It should be noted I'm not even trying to persuade you on the matter, so your earlier post over how you don't care about author intent baffles me unless you think I should change my own viewpoints since you personally disagree with them. Not to mention, you clearly have a biased toward Dooku in this situation.

Try not to respond to this individually. Hell, I don't care if you don't respond at all. But if it's a long response I doubt I'll respond back in-detail.

That's one possibility. He may also be exaggerating the severity of his reaction in an effort to keep Sidious from doing worse.

Because an active attempt to resist a Force attack takes concentration and an active assertion of will.

---

The reason being that Dooku doesn't want to incur further punishment or be viewed as a threat by Sidious.

---

1.) That's assuming that Sidious is referring to the price of failure he's meted out to other individuals and that that "price" was death. An unsupported assertion on your part. Even if your assumption were correct we'd have to assume Dooku thought he was receiving the punishment rather then a simple warning, as was the case. For the reasons I've already listed, that wouldn't make sense given the important Dooku believes he has to Sidious.

2.) Dooku visibly clawing at his throat is an automatic reaction to having pressure applied to it. Logically, he understands that physically clawing at his throat won't alleviate the pressure so him carrying out this action doesn't contradict with his desire to appear subservient before Sidious. In fact it actively supports it since he's debasing himself in that manner in front of him. If Dooku had given no reaction Sidious would have likely viewed this as an act of defiance. I.E. Dooku indicating that the punishment was something insignificant or of little consequence. As I said before, I don't care about your fan interpretation of the author's intent.

3.) Because resisting a Force attack takes an active assertion of will.

Canon and Legends are not the same. Passive Force defenses aren't even shown to exist within Canon.

I honestly don't care about authorial intent even when it suits my purposes. I'll use it to convince people who do of course, but it doesn't affect my own stances in the slightest.

My positions are based on the logic I use to get to them as I've explained to you on numerous occasions. Stuff like me placing Malak above Kun should make that pretty evident.

Too late for that. Should've prefaced that at the start.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
TBecause an active attempt to resist a Force attack takes concentration and assertion of will.

No, it doesn't. For example, when Luke tried to probe Kyp's mind, he was blasted a dozen feet back without Kyp realizing what he had done.



I'm glad you follow.



... the ****?

I thought we had a talk about mental gymnastics and how, sometimes, it's better to just agree rather than sitting at your computer screen for thirty minutes trying to think of a possible rebuttal and then somehow coming out with a hilariously far-fetched one?

It's not "fan interpretation of author's intent" to assess that Filoni didn't have all of that running in his mind when making the sequence.



Wrong.



Instinctual defenses and passive Force defenses are not the same thing.



You should always read the post before you respond to it.

This isn't needed, Dooku isn't breaking out of the grip of a more powerful force user when he's struggling for breath.

The scene's only worth something if we argue for holistic intent.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
This isn't needed, Dooku isn't breaking out of the grip of a more powerful force user when he's struggling for breath.

The scene's only worth something if we argue for holistic intent.

Even more so, a significantly superior Force user can't even break free from a grip of a significantly inferior one.

Again, take Vader and Sidious or Ventress and Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Syndicate was just mad I had a different opinion than his, although, like I said before, it doesn't really matter.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
]Even more so, a significantly superior Force user can't even break free from a grip of a significantly inferior one.

Oh? That's interesting. Elaborate please
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Again, take Vader and Sidious or Ventress and Anakin and Obi-Wan.

1. I'd say Vader was enraged tbh. Not something he can consistently replicate.

When did Anakin choke Kenobi?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Syndicate was just mad I had a different opinion than his, although, like I said before, it doesn't really matter. Aight

He meant Ventress choking Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously. That deleted scene with Maul/Sidious is another example of the same thing, btw.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He meant Ventress choking Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously. That deleted scene with Maul/Sidious is another example of the same thing, btw.
Ah, I misread, my bad.

So is Ant saying keeping someone choked doesn't mean sh!t in canon?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Oh? That's interesting. Elaborate please

We have many examples of weaker Force users choking stronger Force users without the latter being capable of breaking through.

Off the top of my head:

> Asajj suspends Anakin, Obi-Wan in a Force choke.
> Savage suspends Dooku, Asajj in a Force choke.
> Maul suspends Sidious in a Force choke.
> Vader suspends Sidious in a Force choke.

Sure, they were "enraged," but I very much doubt such "rage" is the main reason for this. At best, the "rage" makes them attack the enemy quicker.

It very much seems that, if someone is caught off-guard with a Force choke, the prospect of freeing themselves is... unlikely, even if they are more powerful.

Same applies for the Force push. If you're "off-guard," a significantly less powerful Force-user is still capable of pushing a significantly more powerful Force-user.

Actually, the best example I have for this is Kirak Infil'a.

When Vader first tries to choke him, Kirak is prepared for battle and, with strain, resists.

When Kirak is distracted, Vader is able to choke him and Kirak is unable to break free.

Clearly, then, choke has more to do with state of being than state of power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Actually, the best example I have for this is Kirak Infil'a.

When Vader first tries to choke him, Kirak is looking right at him and, with strain, resists.

When Kirak is distracted, Vader is able to choke him and Kirak is unable to break free.
So force use doesn't mean sh!t unless it's used directly in a fight? For canon at least

I'd say so, generally speaking.

For Legends, we're dealing with Lesser Force Shields, Greater Force Shields, instinctual defenses, etc., so that's a whole different game.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For Legends, we're dealing with Lesser Force Shields, Greater Force Shields, instinctual defenses, etc., so that's a whole different game.

Now remembering, I happened to make a post explaining this, in-detail, here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t636160.html

@Ant: Since you essentially ignored the rest of my post in your last response, I'll respond in kind and address the only section that brings up anything new.

I never said it wasn't possible for Dooku to have instinctually resisted Sidious's Force choke. I simply said he wouldn't have ACTIVELY resisted it. As you yourself note in the thread you linked, instinctual barriers are unlikely to have the same potency as active barriers which is pretty relevant when it's already nearly impossible to break out of the Force grip of a superior Force user, even when actively struggling to do so, to begin with.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I never said it wasn't possible for Dooku to have instinctually resisted Sidious's Force choke. I simply said he wouldn't have ACTIVELY resisted it. As you yourself note in the thread you liked, instinctual barriers are unlikely to have the same potency as active barriers which is pretty relevant when it's already nearly impossible to break out of the Force grip of a superior Force user to begin with.


Force choke, in Legends, seems to directly bypass Greater Force Shields (or instinctual shields, a weaker variant of such). There is a specific technique on how to defend against Force choke, so when applied, in conjecture with the already-defending Lesser Force Shield, one presumably breaks free. This, obviously, isn't the case for Canon. The only instance where we have someone defend against a Force choke is ambiguous to the point I have no clue what he's actually doing to resist it. I imagine Dooku's instinctual defense against a Force choke would be the same as his in-play defense, so no, I don't think it would be weaker. Although, like I said, I'm not sure how said defense works, so that's speculation on my behalf. One would assume it's by using the Force to allow air-flow, but that suggests directly pitting your energies against the energies constraining it, which is inconsistent with lesser Force-users doing it to greater ones.

EDIT: Whatever the defense technique is, it's clearly generally ineffective and / or requires to be in a state of readiness when choked.

Whether or not he resisted doesn't matter, imo. The fact of the matter is this isn't applicable to a combat scenario because Dooku wasn't prepared for it. It's not like Sidious could just choke him out in the middle of a fight...But who knows, it's Sidious

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

It very much seems that, if someone is caught off-guard with a Force choke, the prospect of freeing themselves is... unlikely, even if they are more powerful.

Same applies for the Force push. If you're "off-guard," a significantly less powerful Force-user is still capable of pushing a significantly more powerful Force-user.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force choke, in Legends, seems to directly bypass Greater Force Shields (or instinctual shields, a weaker variant of such). There is a specific technique on how to defend against Force choke, so when applied, in conjecture with the already-defending Lesser Force Shield, one presumably breaks free. This, obviously, isn't the case for Canon. The only instance where we have someone defend against a Force choke is ambiguous to the point I have no clue what he's actually doing to resist it. I imagine Dooku's instinctual defense against a Force choke would be the same as his in-play defense, so no, I don't think it would be weaker. Although, like I said, I'm not sure how said defense works, so that's speculation on my behalf. One would assume it's by using the Force to allow air-flow, but that suggests directly pitting your energies against the energies constraining it, which is inconsistent with lesser Force-users doing it to greater ones.

EDIT: Whatever the defense technique is, it's clearly generally ineffective and / or requires to be in a state of readiness when choked.

K? :/

I'm sure Dooku resisted somewhat; yeah he didn't put his full effort into it but like somebody in real life grabbing you by the throat, you aren't just gonna let it happen but if the guys got good grip strength you'll have a bit of trouble getting his hand off

You used to be a nice guy, Beezlebub.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Whether or not he resisted doesn't matter, imo. The fact of the matter is this isn't applicable to a combat scenario because Dooku wasn't prepared for it. It's not like Sidious could just choke him out in the middle of a fight...But who knows, it's Sidious


Combatants get caught off guard with Force chokes during battle as well.

It's more about whose faster IMO. If you're too fast for your opponent then you're more likely to catch them off guard.

I think Thor has it on par. There isn't much resisting you can do after you've been caught off-guard other than maybe stop it from getting worse. That would explain why Ventress couldn't just snap Kenobi's and Skywalker's necks or Savage do the same to Dooku.

What explanation do we have on that in canon?

Whether or not Sidious can just over-ride a prepared Dooku we don't know from this showing.

Kirak has been choked by Vader but broke free, but he was presumbly ready for the attack.

We can reasonably assume that, if you are choked when taken off-guard, escaping is virtually impossible.

Yep, another example is Kanan pinning the GI catching him off guard in "Rise of the Old Masters", even though we know GI was the more powerful Force user at the time.


Originally posted by Kurk

Whether or not Sidious can just over-ride a prepared Dooku we don't know from this showing.


Well even against Maul and Opress, Sidious kept catching them off guard every time he TK'd them. But again, I think that just means Sidious is faster than they are.

On the other hand he presumably couldn't catch Windu off guard, because they were duelling each other as equals.

Originally posted by ILS
You used to be a nice guy, Beezlebub.

Did I?