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In the Prequel Trilogy Storyboards, so presumably made after the script, Mace telekinetically stops the Invisible Hand when it crashes.

https://i.imgur.com/WZ6IfJ3.png

Why didn't they put this into canon :/

Holy Shit.

Bout damn time. though it's weird this isn't mentioned ever in literally any source.

Was the idea scrapped?

It's non-canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's non-canon.

At one point in time Lucas liked the idea, but for whatever reason it was completely scrapped.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
At one point in time Lucas liked the idea, but for whatever reason it was completely scrapped.
Mace having impressive feats is simply unacceptable.

Though honestly, what they should have really done, was have Anakin stop it when it looked like it was about to crash into the temple

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace having impressive feats is simply unacceptable.
Systemic racism

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Though honestly, what they should have really done, was have Anakin stop it when it looked like it was about to crash into the temple
Nah Anakin has enough feats, Mace is sold a bit short I reckon. For someone on par with Dooku, his force feats are somewhat lacking

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Nah Anakin has enough feats, Mace is sold a bit short I reckon. For someone on par with Dooku, his force feats are somewhat lacking

Nah, Mace surpassed Dooku by ROTS.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Nah Anakin has enough feats, Mace is sold a bit short I reckon. For someone on par with Dooku, his force feats are somewhat lacking That's not the point, the point is that it works best for the story thematically

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Nah, Mace surpassed Dooku by ROTS.
According to Gillard, yes. However wasn't that only in the context of the Windu vs Sidious fight? But what has Mace really done to show he is clearly above the Count? Duelling evenly with Sidious whilst all his physicals were amped through the roof? Stalemate Grievous who could barely move?

Is there a quote saying Mace increased in power and/or ability between TCW and ROTS? Because if not, having to use "all his skills" to defeat Ventress and stalemating Sora Bulq aren't all that impressive. Dooku stomped Ventress every time they dueled (yes I'm aware he did train her, but it's still notable) and dominated Bulq, who had the help of Tholme.

Mace and Dooku are equals

Mace was stated to be able to compete With Sidious, there is no getting around that. Dooku hasn't.
You are forgetting, Mace with that amp, doesn't make him stronger than sidious, yet he still disarms Sidious, through lightsaber combat. A canonical superior, in lightsaber combat.

Grievous is a walking PIS. He has no force reserves to be able to resist being stasis's of force crushed, or mind****ed. So you are going to claim Obi wan is > Mace because he didn't stalemate.

Many feats are inconsistent, like Dooku struggling to deal with an savage opress, while Maul casually handled a more seasoned savage.

Quite frankly they should be scaled to their best showings, ignoring outliers like Ventress.

I haven't divulged myself into enough PT stuff, to say, how much he grew in strength. Though I remember, other members like SN talking about it.

Mace was stated to be able to compete With Sidious, there is no getting around that. Dooku hasn't.

You'll have to provide that quote. Without the Vaapad amp, he's not competing with Sidious.

You are forgetting, Mace with that amp, doesn't make him stronger than sidious, yet he still disarms Sidious, through lightsaber combat. A canonical superior, in lightsaber combat.

Sidious allowed Mace to 'disarm' him. This has been debated over and over again, and I'm not willing to go there. Again, you'll need to provide a quote where Mace is confirmed to be superior to Sids in saber combat.

There are many quotes placing Mace & Dooku below Yoda as duelists, and Sidious "was too strong for Yoda." Sidious > Yoda > Mace

Grievous is a walking PIS. He has no force reserves to be able to resist being stasis's of force crushed, or mind****ed. So you are going to claim Obi wan is > Mace because he didn't stalemate.

You're feelings about him are irrelevant. Of course not, Obi-Wan has the best style to take down someone like Grievous. But somebody who is Sheev's superior in combat doesn't stalemate him.

Many feats are inconsistent, like Dooku struggling to deal with an savage opress, while Maul casually handled a more seasoned savage.

Huh, really makes you think. Maybe Maul is just better than Dooku?
Single-bladed Maul performed as well as Dooku did against Obi-Wan most times, without the form advantage...

Quite frankly they should be scaled to their best showings, ignoring outliers like Ventress.

I haven't divulged myself into enough PT stuff, to say, how much he grew in strength. Though I remember, other members like SN talking about it.

Provide a quote then. That's not an answer

This feat would've made Yoda look pathetic trying to stop a single senate pod

Originally posted by Kurk
Yoda is pathetic

You'll have to provide that quote. Without the Vaapad amp, he's not competing with Sidious.



Sidious allowed Mace to 'disarm' him. This has been debated over and over again, and I'm not willing to go there. Again, you'll need to provide a quote where Mace is confirmed to be superior to Sids in saber combat.

There are many quotes placing Mace & Dooku below Yoda as duelists, and Sidious "was too strong for Yoda." Sidious > Yoda > Mace

I'm sorry concrete evidence that he allowed him to? written into canon, and not just speculation, with a Blog giving points.

Sidious is not a better duelist than Yoda, he is slightly inferior in power, but the fact Remains he was disarmed, by Yoda in combat, and resorted to the force.

Mace has several quotes putting him on Yoda's level or around it as a duelist.




It's perfectly believable that Mace could disarm Sidious, there is more quotes, check out some RT's.

You're feelings about him are irrelevant. Of course not, Obi-Wan has the best style to take down someone like Grievous. But somebody who is Sheev's superior in combat doesn't stalemate him.

It's not my feelings lmao, it's logic within the SW universe, it's Plot that Grievous is around, you have inferior Jedi doing shit like moving warships, using TK, tell me, is Grievous as heavy/durable having the abiltiy to exert enough energy to keep, several hundred thousand tons of metal off the ground. No, its retarded.

I'm referring to Lightsaber combat, not raw strength in their fight, I have Sidious above them in that regard fyi. But lightsaber combat within canon, without using the force is the only way Grevious can compete, and as I say the shit is inconsistent asf.

Huh, really makes you think. Maybe Maul is just better than Dooku? smile
Single-bladed Maul performed as well as Dooku did against Obi-Wan most times, without the form advantage.

Better nah, around the same level, is what I believe, though others have given decent evidence, to why Dooku>Maul.

Provide a quote then. That's not an answer

CBF, digging through hundreds of pages.

That Mace needed vapaad to stalemate doesn't mean he can't compete with sids by virtue of his own abilities. And this is assuming Mace can't replicate the Vapaad boost despite inner darkness not being a temporary source of power.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Mace needed vapaad to stalemate doesn't mean he can't compete with sids by virtue of his own abilities. And this is assuming Mace can't replicate the Vapaad boost despite inner darkness not being a temporary source of power.

Power no, Skill yes.

also



Mace managed to somewhat counteract, Sidious's force push, meaning he wasn't completely dominated out of vaapad.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Power no, Skill yes.
Lucas's statement wasn't exclusive to lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Lucas's statement wasn't exclusive to lightsaber combat.
Doesn't matter, there is enough accolades, to back Mace's lightsaber duel with palps.

Originally posted by Kurk
This feat would've made Yoda look pathetic trying to stop a single senate pod
More importantly though, would this feat by Mace still have resulted in "another happy landing" by the jedi duo?

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Doesn't matter, there is enough accolades, to back Mace's lightsaber duel with palps.
Which is fine, but Mace can compete Sidious in an all out setting per word of god.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Which is fine, but Mace can compete Sidious in an all out setting per word of god.

That word of God excludes Anakin.

Mace>anakin SMD Ant.

quote:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor,"

- Source : George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204

- This is addressed in that blog post.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/silver2467/blog/mace-windu-vs-darth-sidious-what-really-happened-r/77247/


I'm sorry concrete evidence that he allowed him to? written into canon, and not just speculation, with a Blog giving points.

- Unfortunately it's not that cut and dry. I said I didn't want to debate this because it's a distraction, but if we have to I will...
- That 'Blog giving points' is too well put together for it to be dismissed like that.

Sidious is not a better duelist than Yoda, he is slightly inferior in power, but the fact Remains he was disarmed, by Yoda in combat, and resorted to the force.

Duelling is as much about force abilities as it is skill with the blade. One mustn't forget their stalemate in the last episode of TCW.
Anyway:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5006054-yodalosttosidious.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/4/48954/4988424-yoda+vs+sidious+sw.com+3.jpg

Mace has several quotes putting him on Yoda's level or around it as a duelist.



- Having 'unmatched' skills with a lightsaber is hardly something to write home about. Anoon Bondara & Kas'im have similar accolades and I think we can both agree they aren't Sidious tier... This quote doesn't put him on Yoda's level




Yoda has better quotes :/







Shall I go on?

It's perfectly believable that Mace could disarm Sidious, there is more quotes, check out some RT's.

- Mace is skilled enough sure, but his power isn't Sheev level with no amp. Darth Maul is "One of the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history" but he didn't have a hope in hell of defeating Sidious. Skill and power are different, Motherf*cker Dindu does not have the power to beat Sids. Hence the need for Windu to channel Sidious' own power in their ROTS fight.

It's not my feelings lmao, it's logic within the SW universe, it's Plot that Grievous is around, you have inferior Jedi doing shit like moving warships, using TK, tell me, is Grievous as heavy/durable having the abiltiy to exert enough energy to keep, several hundred thousand tons of metal off the ground. No, its retarded.

- This has been explained before... Grievous uses intimidation tactics to prevent Jedi from thinking clearly. It's just about impossible to have a level head when you have 12 lightsaber strikes per second coming at you from all angles. It's never been that Grievous was too heavy to TK away, just that you never got the opportunity. When Fisto and Obi-Wan force push the General, he gets floored instantly (This is his TCW incarnation however)

- I do get what you're saying, but he has been defeated with the force before. I guess it's just 'not the Jedi way' to abuse their power in such a manner :/

I'm referring to Lightsaber combat, not raw strength in their fight, I have Sidious above them in that regard fyi. But lightsaber combat within canon, without using the force is the only way Grevious can compete, and as I say the shit is inconsistent asf.

- Mm, awell. I don't make the rules

Better nah, around the same level, is what I believe, though others have given decent evidence, to why Dooku>Maul.

- Sure, I'm not saying Maul is a tier above Dooku or anything lmao. Maul's showing against Sidious on Sundari is at least comparable to the Count's battle against Yoda in Aotc. 'Others' have also given decent evidence to why Maul > Dooku.

CBF, digging through hundreds of pages.

- Fair enough

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Mace>anakin SMD Ant.
They literally fight in the ROTS game and Anakin wins, rofl.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
They literally fight in the ROTS game and Anakin wins, rofl.
I mean, Anakin would beat Mace but is this really the argument you wanna present? The ****ing ROTS game lmao

Oh, absolutely. A lot of the team who worked on the film moved over to the ROTS game. Gillard choreographed the fight scenes just like he did for the films. I don't see a reason not to use it. What we get for Anakin vs Mace is what would have happened if they fought in the eyes of Lucas, guided by Gillard.

So what do you make of Drallig actually fighting well against Anakin, and not getting stomped?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Oh, absolutely. A lot of the team who worked on the film moved over to the ROTS game. Gillard choreographed the fight scenes just like he did for the films. I don't see a reason not to use it. What we get for Anakin vs Mace is what would have happened if they fought in the eyes of Lucas, guided by Gillard.

Tsk Tsk, the word came from the big GL himself, his command supersedes that of puny Gillard.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
So what do you make of Drallig actually fighting well against Anakin, and not getting stomped?
The ROTS novel has higher canonical authority to the ROTS game.

So then the Mace/Anakin fight didn't happen.

No shit it didn't happen.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't see a reason not to use it.

This is the reason:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No shit it didn't happen.

I've addressed that terrible "reason" before, but I can't find the link on my laptop. I'll wait until I get on desktop.

Dooku > Mace, skill and powers.

Why is headcanon being discussed here?

Kinda wish they would have kept in Anakin actually fighting Cin and Serra, feel like Nick deserved a little more than a 2 second holo appearance given all the work he put in designing the fights of all the PT and in the game.

@Ant none of them explains why you suck up the Mace fight while ignoring the Cin fight. Seems like cherrypicking to me.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Kinda wish they would have kept in Anakin actually fighting Cin and Serra, feel like Nick deserved a little more than a 2 second holo appearance given all the work he put in designing the fights of all the PT and in the game.

It was just a cameo.

@cs_zoltan: Seems like you're wrong to me.

The ROTS novel, which is of higher canonical authority than the ROTS video-game, has Anakin beat Cin Drallig in a matter of strikes.

This version of the fight is likewise echoed in the ROTS Visual Guide and the Dark Nest Crisis.

Thus, it's not a matter of ignoring. It's me taking the ROTS novel above ROTS video-game in a situation of irreconcilable contradiction.

However, if you want to argue that Cin Drallig, within the context of the ROTS video-game, cannot be stomped by Anakin, then I'd agree.

But, generally, when we discuss Cin Drallig, we're looking at him being in the ballpark of tier 7s, not tier 9s like he is in the game.

Or, in other words, Nick Gillard's vision of Cin Drallig (himself), which seems to be his own creative idea (not George's), never really became mainstream.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It was just a cameo.

I know.

But if Gillard was so blatantly wrong about the Cin fight I see no reason to take at face value his opinion on an actual non-canon fight.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
But if Gillard was so blatantly wrong about the Cin fight I see no reason to take at face value his opinion on an actual non-canon fight.
Somehow everything you said here was wrong.

No, Nick Gillard wasn't "wrong." There's no indication that Lucas established a level for Cin Drallig in the first place. It seems more than likely that both Matthew Stover and Nick Gillard had the liberty of creating Cin Drallig with their own creative vision, but their versions differed. Lucas and Lucasfilm was heavily involved in both projects and was, apparently, indifferent to the contradiction. Nonetheless, the ROTS novel is of higher canonical authority and, thus, other works since have used that version of Cin Drallig. That doesn't mean Nick Gillard was wrong - it means his vision never came to fruition. The difference between that situation and Nick Gillard's run-down on Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu is unprecedented. I've already provided you a dozen quotes that state a central goal of the game was to create a game that is just as authentic as the films when it comes to lightsaber fighting. Nick Gillard co-created the fighting styles of Anakin and Mace with George Lucas. His creative input here is going to be greatly expanded than a minor character like Cin Drallig, where his take on the character isn't absolute since no definitive take, seemingly, had yet to be established.

Also, the fight isn't non-canon. The game is consistently stated to expand upon the film and had extensive oversight by LucasFilm. Refer to the following two quotes also:

https://i.imgur.com/zHpyWgT.png https://i.imgur.com/QqMp07M.png

Closely following the plot of the movie, and expanding upon it doesn't mean in any shape or form that the game is canon

You yourself said that the novel overwrites the Cin fight, what do you think the movie does then with the Mace fight? Deletes it in it's entirety.

You can bring up whatever quotes you want, the fact is that a non-canon fight from a source that's already shaky at best doesn't mean f-uck all. I'm not even sure why you care, the game isn't needed in the slightest to prove Anakin > Mace.

Anakin > the Mace that beat Sidious, yeah.

I don't know how I can waste my time for multiple hours and yet you still seem to not have a clue what's going on.

The fact the fight never happened doesn't mean it shouldn't be used, given this hypothetical matchup has significant canonical authority and was worked on by LucasFilm and Nick Gillard.

It's essentially asking George Lucas who he thinks would win between Mace and Anakin and him saying Anakin would win - Gillard and LucasFilm working on the behalf of Lucas.

If you're not accepting that, then that's your own fault, not mine, for ignoring the vision of Lucas.

I don't see what's so controversial about Anakin beating Mace right after Mace's fight with Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't know how I can waste my time for multiple hours and yet you still seem to not have a clue what's going on.

I understand it perfectly. Too bad it's retarded.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The difference between that situation and Nick Gillard's run-down on Anakin Skywalker and Mace Windu is unprecedented.

What's with your bizarre use of vocabulary lately?

Couldn't think of a good word besides unprecedented, tbh.

I cringed when writing it too, don't worry.

What ant is saying is that:

A: While the Windu vs. Anakin fight didn't actually happen, its intent and accuracy to what would actually happen are solidly-backed and uncontradicted by any other higher evidence we have.

B: The intent and accuracy of the Anakin vs. Drallig fight in the game is contradicted by the other, higher sources of canon.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
What ant is saying is that:

A: While the Windu vs. Anakin fight didn't actually happen, its intent and accuracy to what would actually happen are solidly-backed and uncontradicted by any other higher evidence we have.

B: The intent and accuracy of the Anakin vs. Drallig fight in the game is contradicted by the other, higher sources of canon. 1. So Anakin is only above mace after he's fought the most powerful sith Lord ever? I'm ok with this.

2. This is correct.

The scene's intent isn't a weakened Mace vs Anakin, rofl. In fact, the player is unaware they even fought.

There's not even the slightest implication that Mace was weakened or hindered in any way, as I recall.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The scene's intent isn't a weakened Mace vs Anakin, rofl. In fact, the player is unaware they even fought. doesn't change that they did fight though...

That doesn't make it relevant. Context is key.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


There's not even the slightest implication that Mace was weakened or hindered in any way, as I recall.

That's not necessarily true. Although we don't know how much of a role his previous fight played in this, Mace did lose the fight due to exhaustion.

Mace was losing, for the most part, throughout the entire fight.

Yeah, before the fight even starts Anakin is overwhelming him with the force and seems to drive him back every cutscene.

The thing is, ant, if the fight literally didn't happen, and the game largely doesn't follow what actually happens in the movies, how can it be used as evidence?

Nigga using non-canon fight from a game as evidence.

I'm weak, lmao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In the Prequel Trilogy Storyboards, so presumably made after the script, Mace telekinetically stops the Invisible Hand when it crashes.

https://i.imgur.com/WZ6IfJ3.png

Damn, they should have kept that in.
Originally posted by Kurk
This feat would've made Yoda look pathetic trying to stop a single senate pod

No it wouldn't because the original Yoda vs. Sidious fight had Yoda deflecting bolts of lightning that annihilated the dome of the Senate Grand Convocation chamber.

Anakin > All.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/23495d06502f7d3cb91f3604bafa4c28/tumblr_muuhlpgdVv1r45bjeo1_500.gif

Talk about stretching holistic intent.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That doesn't make it relevant. Context is key.
This might be suicide going against you, as I'm just starting to get into the swing of things. But

Context is key, but if that's the case, Mace looks exhuasted at the end of the battle, and let's be fair, he did just fight Sheev, which in both Yoda's and Mace's case, the battle leaves them incredibly exhausted at the end. If we do use that cutscene as a way to wank, Skywalker, well honestly, it's going to seem more impressive for Mace, to have lasted as long as he did against Sheev, and then Skywalker, in fact it lends credence to the whole "Mace is actually = Sheev" shpiel.


Also, Perhaps I missed it a couple pages ago, but if Cin's fight in the game is overruled/overwritten/retcon or what have you, by a higher form of canon, such as the examples you gave, then, it shouldn't it stand to reason that because there is no mention of the battle occurring whatsoever in the ROTS Novel(a higher form a canon than the game), it is overruled? After all, the battle between Skywalker and Mace is not, to my knowledge, echoed anywhere else in the EU, please correct me if i'm wrong. And, If memory serves me right, and I do believe you may have posted it, isn't there a link/source from the game/development team that directly states that the movie takes precedence over the game itself?

If this feat were canon, would it negate Kenobi and Anakin from having another happy landing?

Yeah if the game isn't even being accurate with power levels in fights that actually happened, I don't know why I shouldn't take it's portrayal of a fight that never happened in the actual continuity without a massive grain of salt.

@Fated

Ant is arguing that regardless of whether or not the fight happened, it's an accurate depiction of what would happen had they fought.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Talk about stretching holistic intent.

Says you of all people. mmm

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
@Fated

Ant is arguing that regardless of whether or not the fight happened, it's an accurate depiction of what would happen had they fought.
I understand his stance, but I don't think it is an accurate depiction, at least not 100% accurate.

Ehh, I have (dark side/Knightfall) Anakin on par with if not above the likes of Yoda and Sidious, so I personally think it's an accurate depiction.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ehh, I have (dark side/Knightfall) Anakin on par with if not above the likes of Yoda and Sidious, so I personally think it's an accurate depiction.

http://lolworthy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/y-tho-400x209.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The scene's intent isn't a weakened Mace vs Anakin, rofl. In fact, the player is unaware they even fought.
If we're willing to second guess authorial intent on non-canon maerial, why wouldn't we apply this to the feat you posted?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Says you of all people. mmm
Generally speaking, my arguments using holistic intent rely on evidence that's actually present in canon

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
http://lolworthy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/y-tho-400x209.jpg

A shitton of evidence.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Anakin > All.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/23495d06502f7d3cb91f3604bafa4c28/tumblr_muuhlpgdVv1r45bjeo1_500.gif

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
This might be suicide going against you, as I'm just starting to get into the swing of things. But

Context is key, but if that's the case, Mace looks exhuasted at the end of the battle, and let's be fair, he did just fight Sheev, which in both Yoda's and Mace's case, the battle leaves them incredibly exhausted at the end. If we do use that cutscene as a way to wank, Skywalker, well honestly, it's going to seem more impressive for Mace, to have lasted as long as he did against Sheev, and then Skywalker, in fact it lends credence to the whole "Mace is actually = Sheev" shpiel.

The context is that the game gives no indication Mace is tired, weakened, or even had just fought Sidious.

From the perspective of the player in the game, no fight between Mace and Sidious even took place. The game never brings up the fight.

Thus, to assume the developers where snickering as they wrote the fight and remarked, "the player thinks he's beating Mace but it's actually a weakened Mace!" is silly.

If something as relevant as Mace being hindered to the point that Anakin therefore now wins was true, it's logical to assume that the game would (even remotely) convey that. It didn't.

That being said, Mace already beat Sidious, so I don't think his high-standing needs any more credence.




Addressed by Skillz.



Absolute stupidity for so many reasons.

The game and the novel were being worked on, separately, by two different authors, at the same time.

Further, as stated earlier, there is no indication Lucas ever made a definitive statement on the Drallig fight or Drallig's capabilities.

Thus, it was up to the creative liberty of Gillard, writing the game fight, and Stover, writing the novel fight, to portray Drallig as they wished.

It's not as if there was already definitive statement of Drallig's abilities and Gillard and his team were just ignoring it.

In the end, Stover's version, being of higher canonical authority, ended up trumping Gillard's and became the "true" version.

I can't fathom how one can hammer the game for not knowing something that had yet to be established yet (i.e. Stover's version). Worst yet, I can't fathom how one can use that as reasoning why the game is wrong on areas that had been established by Lucas and since Gillard is involved, would know said facts (such as the capabilities of Anakin and Mace).

You realize that if we applied holistic intent the way you're applying it, it would be perfectly fair to argue that the feat you posted represents authorial intent regarding how powerful Windu is?

And how powerful would that be?

The game doesn't shed any information on Windu's abilities besides placing a cap on it.

The hell?

Ant has long believed Windu is gr8, kek.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The hell?

Ant has long believed Windu is gr8, kek.
Is he arguing that I have to believe Mace can compete with Anakin?

No shit - Mace beat Sidious.

Yeah, I think that he thinks you still have Mace sub-Revan or some shit.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And how powerful would that be?

The game doesn't shed any information on Windu's abilities besides placing a cap on it.
I'm talking about the feat you posted at the start of this thread Ant. If it's fair game to use authorial intent from n-canon material, then what you posted is perfectly valid for use.

There's no problem with Mace being able to perform such a feat, kek.

That's different. We don't know why the feat was removed, but one of the most likely reasons is that Lucas decided Mace came off as too powerful (within the context of the films).

If you can get me a confirmation Lucas removed it for another reason, such as say to show Anakin's piloting skills, then sure, I'll accept it.

That being said, Mace can obviously replicate the feat in Legends, based on handling Sidious' telekinesis and such.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

If you can get me a confirmation Lucas removed it for another reason, such as say to show Anakin's piloting skills, then sure, I'll accept it.

Well, the novel, which Lucas line edited, and the movie both make a point of emphasizing Anakin's piloting skills, so I'd imagine that would be the reason here.

Sure, but Mace stopping Anakin would be at the point Anakin is just skidding down along the run-away. At that point his grand accomplishment would be over. Mace doing it would just be to stop him rather than have Anakin crash into a tower and, some would argue, dampen the greatness of the feat.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Sure, but Mace stopping Anakin would be at the point Anakin is just skidding down along the run-away. At that point his grand accomplishment would be over. Mace doing it would just be to stop him rather than have Anakin crash into a tower and, some would argue, dampen the greatness of the feat.
I thought the feat was that he rotated the ship back in place while it was skidding?
Edit: Relooked at the scans, so yea, he just stops the ship.

Sure, it's not as impressive as stopping it just as it's about to land, but it's still impressive.

My take was that the ship is skidding along the run-way and Mace extends his arms and the ship eventually slides to a stop. Looking back, the ship did rotate, but I don't think that was his doing - or at least not intentional.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
My take was that the ship is skidding along the run-way and Mace extends his arms and the ship eventually slides to a stop. Looking back, the ship did rotate, but I don't think that was his doing - or at least not intentional.
the ship doesn't rotate.

I don't think there's an exit at the front of the ship. It seems to rotate to the side since when Anakin and co. get out they are facing Mace.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't think there's an exit at the front of the ship. It seems to rotate to the side since when Anakin and co. get out they are facing Mace.
That's the shuttle they travel on later, not the big ship they crash on. Check the scan right before we see the three exit, the ship looks exactly like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECriVkNsSA

Apparently, as per the ROTS novel, that's an escape pod at the landing strip.

So perhaps it didn't rotate - not that it matter anyway.

Well, not that this entire conversation mattered anyway. *shrugs*

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The context is that the game gives no indication Mace - had just fought Sidious.

That's retarded. It doesn't matter whether or not he looked tired after fighting Sidious. He's going to be after barely fending off an attack that he himself said he couldn't hold off much longer.

So you're saying the developers wrote the fight with the secret intent of Mace being exhausted but decided to keep it to themselves?

"Oh, we're not going to mention or show that Mace is tired, nor are we even going to mention he was just in a fight, but secretly he was!"



Your argument doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint.

Ant. I don't care how you try to twist this to suit what you're saying. I'm just trying to be a friend to you right now and apart of being a friend is informing you when you're reaching so far up your own ass the public just won't accept it anymore. This is one of those times.

Mace was only shown to be exhausted at the end of the fight where he gets killed, not before. He wasn't really shown as being exhausted after his fight with Sidious either in the movie, so him being exhausted before the fight in game doesn't add up.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ant. I don't care how you try to twist this to suit what you're saying. I'm just trying to be a friend to you right now and apart of being a friend is informing you when you're reaching so far up your own ass the public just won't accept it anymore. This is one of those times.
My argument is based on the premise of author intent, in this case the intent of Lucas. The fact you don't care for author intent doesn't mean I'm wrong. It's also worth noting that we've conducted a poll on this in 2016 and a (slight) majority of the public sided with me on this.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9IgxrK0yiDBXBFQs/giphy.gif

Yeah, he's not expending any energy to keep up with Palpatine in a duel and block his lightning...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
My argument is based on the premise of author intent, in this case the intent of Lucas. The fact you don't care for author intent doesn't mean I'm wrong. It's also worth noting that we've conducted a poll on this in 2016 and a (slight) majority of the public sided with me on this.

Would love to see you make this poll again in the current climate.

Lmao. I just remembered. Mace admits to having no strength left to fend off Palpatine's lightning.

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." - Revenge of the Sith.

F*ck off Ant.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9IgxrK0yiDBXBFQs/giphy.gif

Yeah, he's not expending any energy to keep up with Palpatine in a duel and block his lightning...

The game doesn't show that part, so he wasn't expending any energy as far as the game went.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Lmao. I just remembered. Mace admits to having no strength left to fend off Palpatine's lightning.

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." - Revenge of the Sith.

F*ck off Ant.
You're... completely missing the point.

It's not that Mace didn't expend energy vs Sidious - he expended all of it.

But that's not important here.

This is within the context of the game where, like Zen said, there's no indication Mace is tired - no indication Mace even fought.

The intent of the fight is to show peak Mace vs peak Anakin, and given this entire argument is based on the author intent (of Lucas), expending energy or not is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
The game doesn't show that part, so he wasn't expending any energy as far as the game went.

I'm just at a loss as to how you can think Mace's Force reserves wouldn't have been impacted at all in a high intensity duel with Sidious that lasted several minutes...

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm just at a loss as to how you can think Mace's Force reserves wouldn't have been impacted at all in a high intensity duel with Sidious that lasted several minutes...
https://i.imgur.com/6LlqCea.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


The intent of the fight is to show peak Mace vs peak Anakin,

Oh, the author clarifies that that's their intent? Fair enough. Give me the quote where they say that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I'm just at a loss as to how you can think Mace's Force reserves wouldn't have been impacted at all in a high intensity duel with Sidious that lasted several minutes...

Did I say that? Because I didn't, all I merely said was that Mace didn't appear to be exhausted before the fight within the game, only after. I didn't say Mace's reserves didn't take a hit, but it didn't appear to be enough to have him be exhausted before the fight. It might have drained him sure, but he's still shown as being very capable in fighting.

Mace's lightsaber vs Sidious' lightning never even happens in the ROTS game. They cut that out.

The scene, from the player's perspective, is a completely fresh Mace vs Anakin (the player).

The player has no reason to believe Mace is weakened, nor is there any indication Mace is hindered.

Thus, it follows the intent was to demonstrate a peak Mace vs a peak Anakin.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Did I say that? Because I didn't, all I merely said was that Mace didn't appear to be exhausted before the fight within the game, only after. I didn't say Mace's reserves didn't take a hit, but it didn't appear to be enough to have him be exhausted before the fight. It might have drained him sure, but he's still shown as being very capable in fighting.

Why does that matter? Dooku is literally running on fumes in his fight with Anakin but by using the Force to replenish himself he's able to appear as if he's in peak form.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Mace's lightsaber vs Sidious' lightning never even happens in the ROTS game. They cut that out.

The scene, from the player's perspective, is a completely fresh Mace vs Anakin (the player).

The player has no reason to believe Mace is weakened, nor is there any indication Mace is hindered.

Thus, it follows the intent was to demonstrate a peak Mace vs a peak Anakin.

Still waiting for those author quotes Ant.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why does that matter? Dooku is literally running on fumes in his fight with Anakin but by using the Force to replenish himself he's able to appear as if he's in peak form.

Eesh, that just killed your argument.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Why does that matter? Dooku is literally running on fumes in his fight with Anakin but by using the Force to replenish himself he's able to appear as if he's in peak form.

That's all fine and dandy, I never was saying that Mace was in peak performance, but he wasn't in shit performance either until it was shown at the end.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Still waiting for those author quotes Ant.

There's really no need to act like that.

https://i.imgur.com/vrE7vI3.png

Not that the above quote is what you want, since we both know you set an unreasonable demand, but it expresses my point. You're trying to view everything as a continuous storyline. That's not the way to approach it because the ROTS game (and novel) is different than the ROTS film. In the game, there's no indication Mace and Sidious even fought. In fact, they set it up to make it seem like Mace just strolled in and went to kill Sidious. Further, they removed the segment of Sidious attacking Mace with lightning and exhausting him. And most importantly, no where is it conveyed that Mace is not at his peak strength. You have to understand what we are looking for here is the intent behind the scene, and it's as clear as day that the intent is that Anakin is better than Mace, not that Anakin is better than a super weakened Mace since the game, which is where all of this is from, doesn't convey that. Since we are using intent and not a definitive storyline, the exhaustion argument is irrelevant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's really no need to act like that.

https://i.imgur.com/vrE7vI3.png

Excuses

Still waiting for the quote saying what you claimed.

Syn, like I said, you just ruined your argument.

You said Mace is exhausted since his reserves are used up, similar to how Dooku's are. Yet you post a quote showing Dooku can instantly replenish his resources.

Tell me why can't Mace do likewise when he goes to fight Anakin? Because he's tired? But wait, Dooku was tired too - perhaps more so.



What a mess.

Not that the exhaustion argument matters anyway, but it's amusing, intent aside, it has no merit.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
That's all fine and dandy, I never was saying that Mace was in peak performance, but he wasn't in shit performance either until it was shown at the end.

Based on what are you assuming that? How he looked? Because we just went over that. We know is that Mace had a high intensity duel with Sidious for several minutes. Such an action was enough to tire Yoda significantly so I don't know why the same wouldn't apply to Mace.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
All we know is that Mace had a high intensity duel with Sidious for several minutes.
wrong source

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet you post a quote showing Dooku can instantly replenish his resources.

Holy shit. I've either vastly overestimated your intelligence or you're trolling me. Dooku's not f*cking summoning all the energy he's expended over the last several minutes back to him. He's using the Force to augment his physicals and keep himself on his feet. You can't just ****ing replenish energy out of nowhere. He's still running on fumes, the thing is what little energy he has left is enough to keep up with an unfocused Anakin and, in his mind, end the fight before his tank hits zero.

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away



We have Dooku barely able to stay conscious due to the lack of energy he has to him resetting him here, rofl.

Ant, you've disappointed me for the last time.

The senate shall decide your fate...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16340649#post16340649

I've facepalming so hard right now.

We shall see my young padawan. Much to learn you still have. :>

See... what? The poll? The poll didn't make any sense. Even I don't agree with the poll. You completely misread what I wrote, ran off to make a poll about it before even asking for clarification, and, sadly, this hasn't even been your first time doing exactly this.

https://media.tenor.com/images/f50d6bfbb20c1dfe09b4b0833d586712/tenor.gif

kek

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
he has to him resetting him here, rofl.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet you post a quote showing Dooku can instantly replenish his resources.

Your intent seemed pretty clear tbh.

EDIT: At this point I don't even know what you're on about. Neither do you, presumably.

Dooku replenished his resources -> You say Mace had little reserves left -> I used Dooku as an example that Mace can replenish his resources.

The logic is simple.

That quote fits in perfectly with the context, of their fight in ROTS.

Mace was about to Kill, or take on Sidious's force lightning.
Meaning Mace had fought Sidious in a duel beforehand, that definitely would of not left Mace in perfect form.

I'm not sure if I'm not conveying myself correctly or you people just aren't getting it.

Probably both.

I never said the fight didn't happen. I said whether or not the fight happened is irrelevant.

And, no, that quote doesn't convey a fight. Mace factually did not take on his lightning though.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
That quote fits in perfectly with the context, of their fight in ROTS.

Not true. For example, in the movie, Mace was still attempting to arrest Palpatine when Anakin arrived, and only decided to kill him after an intense struggle with his lightning. In the game, he went for the kill immediately, entirely skipping that exchange. There's no telling one way or the other what the circumstances were in the game's version of events.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
EDIT: At this point I don't even know what you're on about. Neither do you, presumably.

Dooku replenished his resources -> You say Mace had little reserves left -> I used Dooku as an example that Mace can replenish his resources.

The logic is simple.

Where you donked up is when you assumed that Dooku is replenishing his Force reserves which is not the case.

... what? Dooku was. He instantly replenished them. We literally read him do it.

No we don't... And that's the whole point of this kurfuffle. That you think he did and I don't.

No, your two polls were completely different.

Your first poll argued I alleged Dooku was constantly replenishing his resources: false.

Your second poll argued I believe Dooku can instantly replenish his resources: false.

No. The first poll alleged that you believed Dooku fully replenished his energy after saying Dooku had "reset" himself.

Reset meaning to set back to its former state.

You backtracked so the second thread I made asked whether or not Mace/Dooku level Force user's can replenish their depleted energy levels back to nearly full as you outright stated. I have the screen shots as well so it's too late to edit now.

Syn, no offense, but at this point you're being really ****ing annoying and outright retarded.

No, the first poll did not state that in the original opening, nor did I ever backtrack from that stance.

Your second version of the thread is the same as before, unless you're making the distinction be from "fully" to "nearly."

If so, I checked all my posts and found nothing states "fully." You, once again, read me wrong.

FWI, whatever you took for "fully" or "nearly fully" was just casual writing on my part. I wasn't trying to slip in a secret concession, it was just indifferent to the matter.

Ditto man.

Doesn't state what? Your claims? I don't need to. You stated them for me. These polls were made to see whether people agree with those claims or not.

I did make the distinction.

https://i.imgur.com/ftki38X.png?1

Read more carefully in the future.

Already addressed this. Reset generally refers to setting things back to their former state. You did indeed claim Dooku "reset" his energy reserves.

https://i.imgur.com/Zne8EBk.png?1

does this have a point

Yes. Ant claiming he didn't do something he actually did in an effort to make me look stupid.

Me showing he did in fact do it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
does this have a point
A good question.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Yes. Ant claiming he didn't do something he actually did in an effort to make me look stupid.

Me showing he did in fact do it.

what if i told you that this is making you look more stupid than whatever silly mic drop ant was going for

I'd believe you but would have to stick to my morale high ground and continue. :>

This is my last post on the matter.

You were using quotes from Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization by Matthew Stover to argue a point about whether or not Mace Windu was exhausted in the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith video-game. Specifically, you were using quotes pertaining to Dooku's exhaustion and Force reserves. I have no clue why you brought up the quotes or how it related to your argument, but I was amused by the fact that, within the adult novelization, it notes how Dooku instantly replenished his resources in a specific instant. (Your first poll conveys Dooku is constantly replenishing himself, thus making it false). I never stated Dooku can do this, I was arguing the stance because you were specifically using the book. In other words, I was calling you out for double-standards, not endorsing the book. I have no clue what you were thinking since your thoughts seem so mixed up, but at one point I used the term "reset" while another I used "near full," which you jumped upon as some indication of a concession. The fact such an act is so desperate aside, that was not what I was trying to convey. I used the term "reset," perhaps improperly, from the perspective of what it did to Dooku's age. The adult novelization remarks how Dooku is aging rapidly throughout the fight with Anakin Skywalker - figuratively, of course. When Dooku replenishes himself, it notes he washed his age away, so in other words, reset his age. That was what I was getting at there, not that he was fully replenished. That being said, I am indifferent on whether or not he was fully replenished or nearly replenished, so that is irrelevant to me anyway and thus, even if I did change my mind, it would not be a concession. The point of the argument was that Dooku can replenish his resources vastly and in a short amount of time as per a source you were currently using. Whether he could do it to 85% or 100% is irrelevant to me. I recognize you don't think the quote states such, so I'll outline why I think it does:

Before Dooku replenished himself, the text noted that "He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him." Later, after Anakin kicks Dooku off a balcony, it notes Dooku is so exhausted that he is unable to really even summon the Force to land on his feet. So, in other words, Dooku is in a state of exhaustion that far exceeds what was shown with Mace Windu in the Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith film. However, when Dooku replenishes himself, this Force exhaustion seemingly goes away. It is not referenced again and it also notes that "the weight of his years dropped away." This is important within the context because it previously noted that, "each block aged him a decade." This is figurative, of course, but represents the immense taxation on Dooku defending against Anakin. The replenishment quote stating that this age washed away means, therefore, that the taxation on Dooku washed away, for age is being used as a way to express the amount of pressure Anakin put on Dooku. Overall, though, Dooku got from being unable to land on his feat because he was so so messed up to being able to fully continue his fight with Anakin without any note of his previous taxation that I can recall.

Therefore, it stands to reason that Mace Windu, who is in far better shape than Anakin Skywalker, can likewise replenish himself to recover akin to how Dooku did, if we're using the adult novelization, which you were.