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I saw this pop up in the Bane & Zannah vs Kenobi and Anakin thread.

This seems to differ between Disney Canon and EU


How much of a factor does a force user's non-augmented physical ability play in duel?


Personally, I believe that the more powerful the force user, the less significant physicals become. The reasoning behind this being that a more powerful force user can afford to continually "waste" more energy passively augmenting their endurance, strength, speed, etc than a mid-low tier force user. I'm talking simply about passive biological abilities. Not bursts of speed or strength.


Why is someone as powerful as Dooku, who's described to be in better physical shape than humans half his age, inclined to maintain their physicals? To contradict what I just said a paragraph ago, the RotS novel states how Dooku was affected by his physical handicap as he was forced to lavishly spend his force reserves fending off Kenobi and Anakin.

In canon, Dooku's fight against the night-sisters left him coughing and wheezing near the end of the battle which was then exploited by Ventress. Was this due to Dooku quickly fatiguing due to his age, or was he simply exhausted as a force-user (the latter seems less-likely as we see him electrocute the trio and throw them out his window)?


Propose ideas here for both canon and EU.

Interesting.

Originally posted by Kurk


Personally, I believe that the more powerful the force user, the less significant physicals become

This pretty much answered the question frankly.

It becomes more of a factor if the two are closer in power/skill.

Probably not that cut and dry, but generally.

It's more significant than most people give it credit for, at least.

It's irrelevant for force titans like Vitiate and Yoda, but for characters Kenobi-level in power it does make a difference

Originally posted by Kurk
In canon, Dooku's fight against the night-sisters left him coughing and wheezing near the end of the battle which was then exploited by Ventress. Was this due to Dooku quickly fatiguing due to his age, or was he simply exhausted as a force-user (the latter seems less-likely as we see him electrocute the trio and throw them out his window)?



Maybe because he was injected by a Nightsister poison and had to suddenly get out of bed from sleeping? Whatever it was, it hindered him and he probably would've done better had it been in the middle of the day without getting injected.

Originally posted by Kurk
The RotS novel states how Dooku was affected by his physical handicap as he was forced to lavishly spend his force reserves fending off Kenobi and Anakin.

It does not, no.



Neither is true.

I recall debating this with you when you first joined.

To restate, Dooku has no physical handicap beyond the normal.

Only against Anakin is his physicals ever an issue.

I like how the text doesn't even say something remotely close to what you're claiming it does, Kurk.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I like how the text doesn't even say something remotely close to what you're claiming it does, Kurk. That's why I made it bold so you could see the important parts .

Dooku, like all Force users, uses Force augmentation to heighten his speed, strength, etc. to unnatural heights. Anakin is so strong that it is forcing Dooku to exert unnatural amounts of Force energy to reach a level of augmentation capable of surviving against his onslaught. Using such excess power to simply fend off every attack from Anakin is exhausting Dooku, causing him to teeter on the brink of unconsciousness. The expression "aged a decade" demonstrates how taxing this is on Dooku's body. No where, and I mean no where, is it even implied Dooku's age makes him tire unnaturally fast, nor that Dooku being brutalized is a result of a physical handicap and not Anakin's monstrous strength.

In regards to The Clone Wars fight, it is blatantly, and I mean so blatantly it does not require any intelligent thought to deduce, evident that the poison injected by Ventress is the reason for Dooku's dizziness and wheezing - not that he can't fight longer than two minutes without breaking down.

^someone who took an English class, tbh.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku, like all Force users, uses Force augmentation to heighten his speed, strength, etc. to unnatural heights. Anakin is so strong that it is forcing Dooku to exert unnatural amounts of Force energy to reach a level of augmentation capable of surviving against his onslaught. Using such excess power to simply fend off every attack from Anakin is exhausting Dooku, causing him to teeter on the brink of unconsciousness. The expression "aged a decade" demonstrates how taxing this is on Dooku's body. No where, and I mean no where, is it even implied Dooku's age makes him tire unnaturally fast, nor that Dooku being brutalized is a result of a physical handicap and not Anakin's monstrous strength.

In regards to The Clone Wars fight, it is blatantly, and I mean so blatantly it does not require any intelligent thought to deduce, evident that the poison injected by Ventress is the reason for Dooku's dizziness and wheezing - not that he can't fight longer than two minutes without breaking down.

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away."

Tell me how that does not imply Dooku needs to compensate for his "years" moreso than a user like Kenobi or Anakin.


Also


"However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man."

Dooku is a Force-user who uses Force augmentation to booster his abilities to unnatural heights - so much so he's one of the most capable Force-users ever.

Anakin is striking with such strength that Dooku has to dive deep into his Force reserves to summon the energy necessary to augment himself to defend against Anakin.

Dooku expending such excess energy after every strike, in which it's said each strike costs Dooku more Force energy than hurling Obi-Wan, is dubbed "Force exhaustion."

In other words, Dooku is slowly becoming void of the Force, since all the Force within him is being used to summon the physical strength needed to block Anakin.

As a result, Dooku is slowly becoming back to a normal human - aged and unable to even call upon the Force energy needed to process Anakin's speed.

Dooku is presented a break, in which he summons the Force back into himself. When he does this, he's no longer normal again - he's a powerful Force-user.

---

tl;dr: Without the Force, Dooku is just an old man. Dooku is expending so much Force energy vs Anakin that he's slowly becoming just an old man.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dooku is a Force-user who uses Force augmentation to booster his abilities to unnatural heights - so much so he's one of the most capable Force-users ever.

Anakin is striking with such strength that Dooku has to dive deep into his Force reserves to summon the energy necessary to augment himself to defend against Anakin.

Dooku expending such excess energy after every strike, in which it's said each strike costs Dooku more Force energy than hurling Obi-Wan, is dubbed "Force exhaustion."

In other words, Dooku is slowly becoming void of the Force, since all the Force within him is being used to summon the physical strength needed to block Anakin.

As a result, Dooku is slowly becoming back to a normal human - aged and unable to even call upon the Force energy needed to process Anakin's speed.

Dooku is presented a break, in which he summons the Force back into himself. When he does this, he's no longer normal again - he's a powerful Force-user.

---

tl;dr: Without the Force, Dooku is just an old man. Dooku is expending so much Force energy vs Anakin that he's slowly becoming just an old man. What about him "after all not being a young man" all about?

So your stance is that whether or not Dooku was 80 or 20 does not matter as he would've struggled against Anakin's augmented strength either way just as badly, right?

Originally posted by Kurk
What about him "after all not being a young man" all about?

The obvious. Dooku's old. He can't just run around and do jumping jacks and cartwheels.

He needs Force augmentation - from jumping to jumping at a speed that it's effective against other hyper-fast Force-users.

This issue isn't just Dooku's, though, hence why it's irrelevant.

Every Force-user needs the Force. Even someone like Maul, who's perhaps the most physically capable Star Wars character without the Force, is still going to need vast augmentation to bring him to anywhere near the level any of these competent Jedi or Sith are fighting at in Legends; not to mention the fact that half of all Force-users, like Dooku, probably need the Force to do even do a cartwheel.

However, none of this would be an issue unless you're fighting the Chosen One, in which Anakin is forcing Dooku to a state where he's literally just an old man trying to fend off a hyper-hyper fast and strong Force-user. That's by no means indication of a physical handicap, but rather Anakin is so strong Dooku is exerting more energy than he has available to him.

Dooku has, after all, proven he's well capable of handling Grievous, Mace, or Yoda (the physical aspects of it, that is). As I said, the quote is not exclusive to Dooku - any Force-user older than, say, forty or fifty is going to have the same issue (Revan, Malgus, Bane, Yoda, Sidious, Obi-Wan, Vader, and Luke included), and than those younger as well - and the difference is marginal and irrelevant.



I don't like the word "stance" since it suggests there's a legitimate alternative stance, but yes, that's what the book is saying.

Or, if you want to look at it this way:

FOR (Force) points can be converted into STR (strength) points.

Dooku has 50 FOR points and can replenish 5 FOR points every second.

Anakin attacks Dooku with 10 STR points every second.

Generally, Dooku has enough FOR points to devote 6 to STR per second.

However, he now needs 10, which isn't achievable, so he'll use 8 STR points and pray.

Worse, after every strike, Anakin grows stronger, so the second strike would demand 11 STR points, etc.

Plus, with all his FOR points going to STR, Dooku's going to get messed up in other areas, like sense or speed.

Eventually, Dooku is going to be "Force exhausted" - out of FOR points to spend on not just STR, but anything.

In the end, Dooku will be a tired, hurt old man trying to fend off a crazy powerful Force-users attacks - he can't do it.

I wonder why force users even bother keeping in shape then.

It seems more as a result of extensive training.

If you undergo hard training exercises constantly, you're going to naturally become fit.

Star Wars: Ant Edition RPG

Originally posted by TenebrousWay
Star Wars: Ant Edition RPG

Darth Ant > Pablo Hidalgo

Anyway ant, if we use your point system, wouldn't it make sense that Sith Dooku in his 20 year old body would need to spend fewer force points on residual augmentation (endurance, physical strength, etc) than his 80 year-old self? Yes all users augment to unnatural levels of strength and speed, but surely they build upon what they have already. Savage Oppress is already strong enough biologically to where he doesn't have to spend as many force points on speed and strength than someone like Jocasta Nu who needs to compensate for her biological handicaps in addition to maintaining "combat speed and strength".

So obviously there is a reason why jedi aren't just fat fu*ks who depend solely on force augmentation as combatants.

I got a chuckle out of Dooku's age being the cause of his poorly state in the TCW fight. Not, yeno, the fact he was poisoned by a witch with power to rival Sidious.

Yeah but then there's the argument. The older Force User has much large Force reserves to compensate and thus they can match the younger guy cause he doesn't have the bigger Force reserves and thus the older one can win because he's more skilled or something.

Least that's what I've seen, which to a point I can agree with but not fully so.

Originally posted by Kurk
Anyway ant, if we use your point system, wouldn't it make sense that Sith Dooku in his 20 year old body would need to spend fewer force points on residual augmentation (endurance, physical strength, etc) than his 80 year-old self? Yes all users augment to unnatural levels of strength and speed, but surely they build upon what they have already. Savage Oppress is already strong enough biologically to where he doesn't have to spend as many force points on speed and strength than someone like Jocasta Nu who needs to compensate for her biological handicaps in addition to maintaining "combat speed and strength".

So obviously there is a reason why jedi aren't just fat fu*ks who depend solely on force augmentation as combatants.
As I already said, sure, but it's not at all what the novel is discussing, nor has that ever made any difference in any fight in the history of Legends that I can think of. It's a marginal difference that, when considered to the grand scheme of things and the host of Force-users that it would apply to, is rendered irrelevant, since ultimately the energy being put in to reset these elderly individuals to normal human levels is marginal compared to normal human levels to super-powered Force-users in the Legends continuity. Compared to Anakin's might, a peak non-Force sensitive human's body is crumbling just as fast as an elderly one.

Generally speaking, I imagine Force users simply adapt and naturally relocate their power to handle this small aging issue regardless by subtle shifts in their fighting style and the like. Take Qui-Gon, for example, who backed off the acrobatics as he began to age, and instead seemed to focus more on a more strength-based fighting style.

I stress again what you're discussing here is completely seperate from anything involving the ROTS novel or TCW, and also really any book ever, and is much more in the hypothetical realm of things.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Yeah but then there's the argument. The older Force User has much large Force reserves to compensate and thus they can match the younger guy cause he doesn't have the bigger Force reserves and thus the older one can win because he's more skilled or something.

Least that's what I've seen, which to a point I can agree with but not fully so.
While I know you didn't come up with that, that's just outright wrong, tbh.

Originally posted by ILS
I got a chuckle out of Dooku's age being the cause of his poorly state in the TCW fight. Not, yeno, the fact he was poisoned by a witch with power to rival Sidious. Talzin just said that the poison would cloud his senses; not sure how that would affect his endurance

Originally posted by Kurk
Anyway ant, if we use your point system, wouldn't it make sense that Sith Dooku in his 20 year old body would need to spend fewer force points on residual augmentation (endurance, physical strength, etc) than his 80 year-old self? Yes all users augment to unnatural levels of strength and speed, but surely they build upon what they have already. Savage Oppress is already strong enough biologically to where he doesn't have to spend as many force points on speed and strength than someone like Jocasta Nu who needs to compensate for her biological handicaps in addition to maintaining "combat speed and strength".

So obviously there is a reason why jedi aren't just fat fu*ks who depend solely on force augmentation as combatants.

Very few people will be able to even stand up to Anakin's physical strength regardless of their age.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
While I know you didn't come up with that, that's just outright wrong, tbh.

/Shrug

Well I've seen it being used and from what I recall, no one really disputed it.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
/Shrug

Well I've seen it being used and from what I recall, no one really disputed it.

Force reserves should be the amount of total Force power (potential + applicable) not being used for passive functions (ex. Force sense) and, if in combat, active ones (ex. augmented speed).

Anakin's Force reserves would be immeasurable, whereas someone like Obi-Wan's less-so.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin's Force reserves would be immeasurable, whereas someone like Obi-Wan's less-so.

They are. In the ROTS novel I think I remember Sidious noting in the opera scene how Anakin's Force reserves were seemingly endless.

Why was Kenobi able to handle Anakin longer than Dooku? It can't be all form dependent, can it? Obi-Wan is at most on the same level as Dooku force-reserve wise, right?

Anakin was severely mentally handicapped and emotionally unstable, weakening his ability to fight or use the Force, making him far inferior to how he was on the Invisible Hand or Operation Knightfall. This, added onto the fact Obi-Wan and Anakin have spent thousands of hours sparring and have forms that perfectly match each other, allowed Obi-Wan to simply prolong the fight versus Anakin until Anakin's emotion fully consumed him.

Originally posted by Kurk
Why was Kenobi able to handle Anakin longer than Dooku? It can't be all form dependent, can it? Obi-Wan is at most on the same level as Dooku force-reserve wise, right?
PIS, like all of Kenobi's victories

Now that I think about it:

Kar-Vastor VS Sidious in a physical only round at the same speed would be interesting.

Thinking back on it, the Forcecast wasn't wrong when they said Sidious wouldn't be as effective without physical augmentation although I'd still say he's capable.