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Not sure how far this topic will go, but I'm still curious to see some opinions nonetheless...

So as of the DBS-era, what are your thoughts on some of the transformation/character multipliers? To help get things started...

SSJ is 50x base.
SSJ2 is 2x SSJ.
SSJ3 is x4 SSJ2.
SSG is ___x SSJ3.
SSB is ___x SSG.
MSSB is ___x SSG.
Beerus is ___x MSSB.
Whis is ___x Beerus.
Daishinkan is ___x Whis.
Zen-Oh is ___x Daishinkan.


*And using SSB Goku as a measuring stick, I'm also curious where you'd rank characters like:
-SSB Vegetto
-Golden Freeza
-Merged Zamasu
-Jiren
-Hit

etc.

??

if SSJ3 is 400x base, then I'd posit SSJG is 1,000 + times SSJ3.

SSJB might be 50x SSJG, given it's the super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God, but who knows.

I'd wager MSSJB is anywhere between 10 and 20 times SSJB.

Beerus is probably 10-20 times MSSJB.

Whis is probably 20-40 times Beerus.

Daishinkan is probably 20-40 times Whis.

Zen-Oh is millions of times > anyone else.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Beerus is probably 10-20 times MSSJB. I'd say Beerus is substantially more than 20x MSSB. After all, Jiren is the first mortal to ever truly reach(and in some cases surpass) the power of Destroyers, and he treated MSSB Goku /w/ 20xKK like an insignificant feeb. I can only assume that Beerus, being the most powerful GoD(at least top 2), would have beaten *that* Goku just as casually. /shrug

...Not to mention that Beerus trounced MSSB Vegeta with literally NO effort when they sparred. /shrug

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Whis is probably 20-40 times Beerus. Probably. Him felling Beerus with a single chop is still canon, after all.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Daishinkan is probably 20-40 times Whis. Aside from him stopping all-out strikes from Beerus and Quitela with a single finger, the fact that ALL Destroyers and Angels grovel before him and flagrantly admit inferiority speaks volumes...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Zen-Oh is millions of times > anyone else. That's the common opinion, yes.

...But what if Daishinkan is the Whis to Zen-Oh's Beerus? IOW, he serves Zen-Oh's every whim, but has the power to put him in check if the need arises... Unlikely, sure, but wouldn't that be sumthin. g007_teehee

That would be amazing. Where would you rank the androids?

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd say Beerus is substantially more than 20x MSSB. After all, Jiren is the first mortal to ever truly reach(and in some cases surpass) the power of Destroyers, and he treated MSSB Goku /w/ 20xKK like an insignificant feeb. I can only assume that Beerus, being the most powerful GoD(at least top 2), would have beaten *that* Goku just as casually. /shrug

...Not to mention that Beerus trounced MSSB Vegeta with literally NO effort when they sparred. /shrug

Probably. Him felling Beerus with a single chop is still canon, after all.

Aside from him stopping all-out strikes from Beerus and Quitela with a single finger, the fact that ALL Destroyers and Angels grovel before him and flagrantly admit inferiority speaks volumes...

That's the common opinion, yes.

...But what if Daishinkan is the Whis to Zen-Oh's Beerus? IOW, he serves Zen-Oh's every whim, but has the power to put him in check if the need arises... Unlikely, sure, but wouldn't that be sumthin. g007_teehee

There's no reason to believe Mastered SSJB is a thing in the anime. As a matter of fact, MSSJB is most likely the replacement for Kaioken in the manga. Beerus had to "get serious" to trounce MSSJB Vegeta, so it definitely didn't require no effort.

The strongest indicators of Daishinkan's strength are:

1. Whis saying he doesn't stand the slightest chance against Daishinkan.

2. Whis implying Daishinkan has the ability to erase beings from existence, like Zen-Oh.

But ultimately, Whis still refers to Daishinkan in the context of a fighter. Zen-Oh is beyond fighting entirely, and heavily implied to be the Supreme Power thus far in DBS.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
There's no reason to believe Mastered SSJB is a thing in the anime. As a matter of fact, MSSJB is most likely the replacement for Kaioken in the manga. Beerus had to "get serious" to trounce MSSJB Vegeta, so it definitely didn't require no effort. Beerus was toying with MSSB Vegeta initially -- not taking him seriously at all. When Vegeta landed a single hit, Beerus got pissed and owned him casually.

So perhaps I should have said "almost" no effort.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
But ultimately, Whis still refers to Daishinkan in the context of a fighter. Zen-Oh is beyond fighting entirely, and heavily implied to be the Supreme Power thus far in DBS. Indeed.

Although the same basic thing could be said about Whis/Beerus. We were originally led to believe that Beerus was > Whis, *until* Beerus told us that Whis is actually far more powerful than himself. /shrug

Either way, I have a strong feeling that Daishinkan will be the 'big bad' in this event -- he's plotting something BIG, imo, and I don't see Zen-Oh intervening in the scheme of things this time, which means he either-
a.) doesn't care about Dai's machinations(Zen-Oh was prepared to wipe out 4 f*cking universes on a whim just before the ToP commenced, after all, so he obviously doesn't give a shit about large-scale destruction, and/or multiversal reorganization.)
-OR-
b.) Zen-Oh simply isn't powerful enough to stop Daishinkan, because Dai is actually >.


*The latter is a long shot for sure, but it would be a very interesting twist nonetheless.

Multipliers are gone. Power levels are just way too inconsistent in DBS.

Almost no effort, not literally no effort.

Regarding Zen-Oh vs Daishinkan, Whis and Beerus have both said Omni-King is the most powerful being in existence, which would include Daishinkan. Daishinkan is the supreme fighter, Omni-King is beyond fighting entirely, and can erase the cosmos in the blink of an eye.

So I'd opt for option 1, though I have my doubts that Daishinkan is evil persay. The worst I can see is that he's the one who gave Zen the idea to erase the lower-tier universes. And Daishinkan is simply too strong; most of the angels would probably be on Daishinkan's side as well. Only Zen-Oh could destroy them, and like you said, he doesn't give enough of a shit.

Hell, in the Future Trunks Arc, Omni-King didn't even notice all the Gods were dead, the angels were inactive, or that Zamasu had merged with the timeline.

Zeno is definitely not applicable to pl. Arms tired from moving them, unable to follow fights. Universe erasing is clearly a trick. He'd probably read as 1, and be killed by that Earth farmer.

Originally posted by ares834
Multipliers are gone. Power levels are just way too inconsistent in DBS. Agreed. That's why I'm just asking for individual opinions -- where people think they are based on what we've seen.


On that note, where would y'all put Goku's current base-level, relative to his Boo-era SSJ3..? mmm

Above that, but below Krillin.

Originally posted by Galan007
Agreed. That's why I'm just asking for individual opinions -- where people think they are based on what we've seen.


On that note, where would y'all put Goku's current base-level, relative to his Boo-era SSJ3..? mmm

Base Vegeta was tanking punches from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Originally posted by Galan007
On that note, where would y'all put Goku's current base-level, relative to his Boo-era SSJ3..? mmm This entirely depends on Manga or anime. Manga I'd say Buu Saga SSJ1 Goku can beat Base Super Goku.

Anime though... ssj3 Gotenks who is 8x stronger than ssj3 Goku was trounced easily by Vegeta so, I'm gonna say that Base Goku is Buutenks Level minimum. Because it was even more one-sided than Mystic Gohan vs Super Buu who was = to ssj3 Gotenks.



As for the multipliers, its extremely hard to gauge, and manga, and anime would give very different multipliers. And to casually just toy with someone you don't have to be that much more powerful than them. Perfect Cell was roughly 2 or 3x stronger than Vegeta and was able to take his hits but was hurt by a blast. Kid Buu was 4x stronger and played around with Vegeta with an ease that Whis has against Beerus.


That said Beerus is definitely hundreds of times stronger than MSSB if not thousands simply because of what we know of Potara, and specifically Vegetto. The rest is hard to say.

Originally posted by Galan007
So as of the DBS-era, what are your thoughts on some of the transformation/character multipliers? To help get things started...

SSJ is 50x base.
SSJ2 is 2x SSJ.
SSJ3 is x4 SSJ2.

I've mentioned this before, but I doubt this is still accurate. Since it's been established that saiyan bodies have a limit to how powerful they can become (even with zenkai and training), and that in certain circumstances (like with Gohan) the entirety of that power can be used in base, I still figure that those multipliers are going down as they become able to utilize more of their latent power in base. The relevance of the base saiyans in combat and the fact that SSJ2/SSJ3 were stated to have become obsolete by Toriyama (even though SSJ1 isn't) is what makes me think this is the case.

I'm aware that opinion isn't popular for a variety of reasons (varying from person to person), though.



Well, SSJG doesn't directly scale up from SSJ3, it's a power up that revolves around the presence of god ki rather than pushing the body to its limits. Well, at least in the BoG era it must have been dozens of times stronger, although that didn't seem to still be the case when Goku fought Hit.



Somewhere between 1.5x and 3x, it's been shown to be a significant boost, but a SSJG can still keep pace with a SSJB even if they don't have enough power output to do any serious damage.



1x. MSSJB isn't any stronger than SSJB, its full power is just being put to use, whereas normal SSJB is constantly leaking and wasting energy.



If we lend credence to the "Vegetto = Beerus" quote, then he should be some dozens of times stronger.



Hard to say, but from what Toriyama said, we can assume it's at least as much as the difference between Beerus and SSG... So it's probably a ridiculous number.



A couple cuts below Beerus, unless he's charging his Final Kamehameha.



He hasn't been shown in the manga, but from the brief mention that we got, we can assume he's somewhere between SSJG and SSJB.



Roughly equal to SSJB, +Immortality/God Magic/Cloning



We haven't seen him in the manga, but since he's supposed to be GoD+, he's bound to be dozens of times stronger than SSJB.



At his normal level (at the moment) he's not far beyond the upper-end Boo-saga characters. At his maximum power, he's roughly SSJG level. Which isn't bad, because he has time powers.

I suspect by the time we hit the Tournament of Power, he'll be SSJG+ in his normal state.



If we take the Universe 6 tournament as our indicator (which is a bit sketchy, mind you) then base Goku is still probably somewhat weaker than Piccolo, so Boo-saga SSJ3 should still win easily.

Then again, base Black was able to defeat a malnourished SSJ2 Trunks (who could potentially reach SSJ3 levels of power, although it's unclear if he was in good enough condition at the time) pretty quickly, although I think that may just be because Zamasu is that much more skilled than Trunks (similar to how base Goku was keeping up with SSJ2 Caulifla in the anime). Black did seem to be initially overwhelmed by the brunt of the assault, and he won by outmaneuvering him.

Red couldn't even make Jiren flinch while blue knocked him back.

Originally posted by Kento
This entirely depends on Manga or anime. Manga I'd say Buu Saga SSJ1 Goku can beat Base Super Goku.

Anime though... ssj3 Gotenks who is 8x stronger than ssj3 Goku was trounced easily by Vegeta so, I'm gonna say that Base Goku is Buutenks Level minimum. Because it was even more one-sided than Mystic Gohan vs Super Buu who was = to ssj3 Gotenks.



As for the multipliers, its extremely hard to gauge, and manga, and anime would give very different multipliers. And to casually just toy with someone you don't have to be that much more powerful than them. Perfect Cell was roughly 2 or 3x stronger than Vegeta and was able to take his hits but was hurt by a blast. Kid Buu was 4x stronger and played around with Vegeta with an ease that Whis has against Beerus.


That said Beerus is definitely hundreds of times stronger than MSSB if not thousands simply because of what we know of Potara, and specifically Vegetto. The rest is hard to say.

Who says Gotenks is 8x stronger.

Originally posted by cdtm
Who says Gotenks is 8x stronger. ssj Gotenks is = to ssj3 Goku. SO ssj2 is x2, and ssj3 is x4 so x8

What tier does SSJ Rage Trunks with the Spirit Sword fall in?

^That depends if we're counting the Spirit Sword as an actual power up, or more like a Spirit Ball with positive energy haxxx.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I've mentioned this before, but I doubt this is still accurate. Since it's been established that saiyan bodies have a limit to how powerful they can become (even with zenkai and training), and that in certain circumstances (like with Gohan) the entirety of that power can be used in base, I still figure that those multipliers are going down as they become able to utilize more of their latent power in base. The relevance of the base saiyans in combat and the fact that SSJ2/SSJ3 were stated to have become obsolete by Toriyama (even though SSJ1 isn't) is what makes me think this is the case.

For the purposes of the thread, an simplified model of roughly how I see the current power scale would look something like:

Base ~ At least 5x EoZ, possibly far more
SSJ1 ~ 20x to 25x base

SSJ2 ~ 1.33x to 1.66x SSJ1
SSJ3 ~ 1.75x to 2.25x SSJ2

SSJG ~ 25x to 30x SSJ1
SSJB ~ 2x to 3x SSJG

Potara Fusion (with two equal participants) ~ 60x to 72x multiplier

This is keeping in mind that Goku and Vegeta are currently also much better martial artists than they were during Z, and have much better control of their ki. Even with their power levels equalized, current Goku/Vegeta would casually beat down their EoZ counterparts by means of skill IMO.

Originally posted by Kento
ssj Gotenks is = to ssj3 Goku. SO ssj2 is x2, and ssj3 is x4 so x8

Equal? News to me, never thought SSJ Gotenks was quite that strong. His fight with Buu was mostly with techniques, physically he couldn't do much of anything until SSJ3.

Originally posted by cdtm
Equal? News to me, never thought SSJ Gotenks was quite that strong. His fight with Buu was mostly with techniques, physically he couldn't do much of anything until SSJ3. Hard to say exactly how much more powerful Gotenks was, but we DO know he was more powerful than Goku by a significant margin, using Super Boo as a measuring stick.

Upon seeing/sensing Super Boo, Goku(who can very accurately sense ki) outright stated that he was stronger than himself and Vegeta, and knew they'd have NO chance against him without fusion:
https://i.imgur.com/y4irR7p.jpg
This tells us Super Boo >> SSJ3 Goku + SSJ2 Vegeta.

Flip side, SSJ3 Gotenks was no less than equal to Super Boo -- in fact, it's possible that Gotenks had slightly more raw power if you look at their fight in the manga. He just couldn't perma-kill Boo, is all(which required even greater levels of haxx/plot-armor than he was capable of generating.)

Originally posted by cdtm
Equal? News to me, never thought SSJ Gotenks was quite that strong. His fight with Buu was mostly with techniques, physically he couldn't do much of anything until SSJ3. Super Buu is vastly superior to Fat Buu though. Though Fat Buu was give or take 2x weaker than Ssj3 Goku. But base Gotenks was beaten quick by Fat Buu but when they were ssj everyone thought they were a match for fat buu.

Kaioken is x 10.

SSG is ?x SSJ3. (Tough on to gauge)
SSB is ≈10x SSG. (Based off SSG being less than 10% comment in 6 vs 7 tournament)
MSSB is 50x SSG. (Based off Kefla fight)
Beerus is 100x MSSB. (Based on extremely suppressed Jiren vs SSBKKx20 plus spirit bomb. Hard to really tell though)
Whis is 100x Beerus. (No real way to tell)
Daishinkan is 100x Whis. (No real way to tell)
Zen-Oh is ∞x Daishinkan. (No real way to tell)

SSG Goku was introduced as being out of even Super Vegetto's league, so it would have to be at least tens of times stronger than SSJ3.

Based Whis's dialogue during the U6 tournament, the highball estimate for SSB would be that it's 10x stronger than SSG. A reasonable lowball would be 3x.

MSSB has exactly the same power output as SSB. The difference is that all of the power is being utilized (whereas normally there was leakage), and that power drains much slower.

Assuming that the Beerus ~ SSB Vegetto is accurate, and that the multiplier for Vegetto from the Buu saga is unchanged, then Beerus should still be several dozen times stronger than MSSB, as ridiculous as that sounds.

From there, if Toriyama's 6-10-15 scale is still considered accurate, Whis would have to be hundreds of times stronger than Beerus for the gap between them to be larger than the gap between Beerus and BoG Goku.

Daishinkan and Zeno are relatively unknown, so I'm not even going to try to guess where they stand.

The Kefla vs Goku fight shows the most accurate multiplier from SSG to SSB imo.

Base Kefla > Weakened SSG Goku
SSJ Kefla ≈ Weakened SSB Goku

With this we can now safely say that SSB would be about the same increase as the normal SSJ increase.

Max Kefla > UI Goku.

Based on the fact UI Goku's best Kamehameha only knocked Kefla out of the ring, while a stray ki strand would have sliced UI Goku in two.

Goku won on skill, not raw power.

UI's strength being about skill is proven beyond doubt when UI Goku could not harm Kefla much with melee. This implies a fully master UI targets weak points/pressure points, for max damage.

Im not talking about max Kefla or UI Goku...

You have to remember that Kefla is a Legendary Super Saiyan too. So her power keeps on growing. She also went SSJ2 against UI Goku.
Goku also never maxed out his power against her. He just stops and says "that is enough for me."
He also only has the defensive side of UI so there is that too. Even still he was strong enough to defuse Kefla with his power.

Back to what I was saying. My estimate above is in the range of what the multiplier would be from SSG to SSB.

Goku was also ridiculously weakened against Kefla, so I'm not sure why we'd use that as a gauge anyway... UI or not.

Originally posted by Galan007
Goku was also ridiculously weakened against Kefla, so I'm not sure why we'd use that as a gauge anyway... UI or not.

No more or less weakened then every other powerup. Goku against Freeza, Gohan vs Cell, all had them beaten down and weak before the SSJ.

I think it's telling that, weakened or not, it was implied a fully mastered UI could have taken out Kefla in one attack.. It's like Kenshiro's Hokuto Shinken, where the skill itself steamrolls anybody against it, as long as the user masters the form. No matter how strong they are.

That's how I see it, anyways. I'm not quite convinced strength doesn't matter, but it seems heavily implied that STRENGTH DOES NOT MATTER. It's all 100% skill, and anyone who masters it essentially removes themselves from the scale and sits someplace far above it.

Physical capability absolutely matters where UI is concerned. Give Dr. Brief complete mastery of UI, and he certainly isn't just going to waltz up and stomp Jiren, for example -- you still have to be powerful enough for your blows to matter.

And again, it was reiterated time and time again that Goku is all but burned out since fighting Jiren... Which makes his stompage of Kefla much more impressive, mind you, but still not an accurate gauge for what a *peak* UI Goku is capable of. Imo.

Taken to an extreme, this is true.

Sticking to the Hokuto Shinken parallel, once Kenshiro masters his art, he effectively becomes invincible against all except other Muso Tensei users.

The reason Mr. Satan wouldn't become invincible with UI, is because he simply wouldn't be able to achive the form. I'll grant a certain level of training and proficiancy is required, at an unknown level.

But as for raw power.. It's entirely possible a being as weak as Saiyan/Namek saga power levels could get you across that line. We really don't know, but we DO know Jiren isn't a Saiyan, and we also know Goku's SSJ Blue and UI "strength levels" seem pretty unrelated (Goku was stomped while Blue, yet he also launched Jiren across the battlefield.. Technically, UI may be weaker then blue in terms of raw power, but make up the difference in skillful striking at weak points, balance manipulation, and other tricks.)

Of course, this is all speculation..but hardly without precedent, as the physically weak martial.arts master who stomps the much stronger youth on skill alone is a common trope.

You're making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be, imo... It's this simple: UI or not, a full power Goku >>> a weakened Goku.

The only reason for his depleted stamina to be continuously referenced ad nauseam is so we, the viewers, are aware that everything he's done post-Jiren, was done in a significantly weakened state.

I'm not only talking about his fight with Kefla, though. His fight with Jiren had Blue punch's have a much greater effect then UI. The one's Jiren allowed to connect, at any rate.