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So, the war has been going on about 6 years now, and I think at this point no one will change their stance on the Darth Sidious vs Emperor Vitiate/Valkorion debate. This is as far as it's going to most likely get; the war might as well be over now.

So, this thread is meant to be a trip down the memory lane to commemorate one of, if not the most heated and fierce rivarly in the community's history while it lasted, as well as to pose the question: which side do you think won? Note: I am not asking for your opinion on which character would win, but which side made the better arguments over the years, and who eventually won, in your view.

Links to some notable battles would also be appreciated.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hQacPQ89PvU

https://i.imgur.com/qq0YgIJ.jpg

those who passionately support ideologies based on the combative abilities of fictional characters can never win.

That said, sheevies definitely did better. Valk has fallenf ar from once being de sids +

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
those who passionately support ideologies based on the combative abilities of fictional characters can never win.

Lmao

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
those who passionately support ideologies based on the combative abilities of fictional characters can never win.

I would laugh but I'm too busy crying.

Popular support? Sheevites, without a doubt.

Quite a biased thread title lol

The number of votes for the Vitidiots has increased by 1.

Now by 2.

Please stop with this over the top Sheev worship.

It's so cringey and you can't even see it.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
Please stop with this over the top Sheev worship.

It's so cringey and you can't even see it.

No.

Both can be as brilliant or stupid as each other.

Sure, but who won in the end, is the question I'm posing here.

Sheevism is a birth defect. If ever there was a cause for eugenics...

Originally posted by Azronger
Sure, but who won in the end, is the question I'm posing here.
It hasn't ended, and it depends on the type of fourms tbh.

Very few are willing to budge from their stance at this point, so yes, it's pretty much over.

Probably Sheevism tbh.
There is a lack of any real Vitiate debaters on this forum, that can convince others of their stance.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
Probably Sheevism tbh.

Then pay tribute to His Imperial Majesty and vote in favor of his humble servants.



Yup. Pretty much boils down to LeG and AP. Skillz and co. had plans for their little revolution, but that blog was shot down within the first 10 minutes of release. Their subsequent efforts never materialized partly due to sloth and, I'd wager, fear of Lord Tempest.

Though Sheev does have the material, which easily solidifies arguments, and the ability to make reasonable/logical stances.

With Vitiate/valkorian, it's a bit harder as they generally have to use more unorthodox methods.

True. They eventually realized Vitiate can't match Sheev mano-a-mano, so they had to resort to some really bizarre tactics. If I had to give the Vitidiots any credit, though, it would be their ability to come up with new and innovative ways to fail every other week. The creativity on display there was truly something.

Sheevism is the traditionalist/fundamentalist Church. Vitiatism is the new Liberal hippy Church.

Sheevites will inevitably win because they can't be swayed, in their head they're right without question. There's a certain appeal because 'this is how it always has been,' this is the old way, the right way. We have quotes, feats, he's in the movies bla bla bla. People grow up with Vader & Sheev as the villains, not Vitiate. Palpatine is just the better character, it has nothing to do with who is more powerful but rather nostalgia.

Vitiatism is trying to be cool and edgy but no one gives a shit, not even his fanboys... of course he's the superior force wielder, the guy is a God. But he is boring.

Vitiatism is the New English Translation but Sheevism is the King James Bible, and the KJV is the word of God.

*Vitidiocy

What you're saying makes very little sense. Sheevites support His Imperial Majesty because of his character, but rank him as numero uno because of his power. From the looks of things you're accusing us of bias, but if that were the case then you wouldn't see us claiming Sheev gets stomped by the Son and Abeloth.

The reason why Vitiate is and will forever be inferior to Sidious is because his feats, accolades and the arguments crafted in his defence aren't and have never been up to par. It's that simple.

Tbh, he's right. ^

As we Sheevites most often tend to be.

I like how six failed attempts at debunking my threads later, you still think the popular vote makes Sheevism the victor. Hillary had the popular vote and that ended swimmingly, didn't it?

https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiIzL9Btjx9hegHT2/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5CmJl1Y7KsKI/giphy.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-13-2016/xU3knJ.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/yI3rO1XBSf0He/source.gif

I expected nothing more.

^ Why is this c*** muscle still around?

Who knows? He/she/it doesn't even offer any comedy value like LeGenD. He/she/it is just an obnoxious attention whore.

Why the AP and Legend hate? They're just less intelligent versions of Skillz, it's good to have a little Anti-Sheevism to balance out the Anti-Vitiatism.

Yeah, anti-Sheevism Vitidiocy is good that it produces amusingly bad arguments you can't help but laugh at when employed by AP or LeGenD. It's an entire sub-genre of comedy at this point. And when utilized by someone competent like Ant or Skillz, it usually ends bringing out the best in us Sheevites and be crushed in short order regardless.

Keep telling yourself that. Also keep thinking you're even in the league of a debater like Beni. It's adorable.

Huh. Subtly trying to manipulate members of the forum to your side by using them as benchmarks that users you dislike are placed under. While pretty surface level as a manipulation tactic it's above the level I thought you were capable of.

You've genuinely surprised me with your ability AP.

It is you who is surprising, about a great many things.

How long will it take you and your ilk before you realise that all the logic I've used for the last few years has merely been a copy of the same logic used by those like yourself? Feat wars, power scaling and all of those flawless trains of logic. Honestly it's grade school tier.

You really think I care about the likes of you and Az? It's always been Temp and his like. Even before I started on swtor forums it was Temp, LotL and the classic sheevites vs antediluvians. Joining SWTOR in the first place was just to troll Revan fanboys.

Get a reality check already. I've never professed to be a Silver or the like, nor do I care to be one. Users like me ran out of steam nearly ten years ago.

Originally posted by AncientPower
about a great many things.

Sheevism is infecting you and you're not even aware of it.

Sheevism didn't triumph; Sheevites just got louder and clung to even more ridiculous methods of argument such as the whole "balance of the Force" arc as if Palpatine was exclusively responsible for the shift with a Force push. Ridiculous.

Balance of the Force is intrinsically linked to acts of individuals across the galaxy because it permeates all of space and binds everything within it. However, living beings have a far greater impact on the balance of the Force than inanimate objects. When corruption, perversion, conflict, oppression and killings become widespread, the Force will loose its balance and tilt toward Darkness. Sith are also known to perform evil experiments which may nudge the Force further into Darkness. Due to these factors, the Jedi attempt to resolve conflicts, preach morality and eliminate Sith. A source named Star Wars: Force and Destiny offers a decent explanation of the mechanics of the balance of the Force.

However, the desperation of Sheevites reached to an extent that they began to argue that Darth(s) Plagueis and Sidious were influencing the balance of the Force with their Force powers; as if their rituals and evil experiments are a demonstration of their raw power, and all else was irrelevant. I wonder why they were not tearing planets apart with a gesture then.

Over-the-top ridiculous arguments in short.

BioWare simply ignored the whole "balance of the Force" arc in its storytelling. Drew Karpyshyn touched this subject briefly in the Revan novel, and full stop. The author made it obvious that Vitiate was the source of Darkness and agents of Light were emerging to oppose him from time-to-time (Revan being one of them).

Vitiate has a history of performing some of the most evil experiments (ever) and common sense dictates that such experiments would have impacted the balance of the Force. And then there are a number of other factors to consider.

----

When I compare the characters, I am not focusing on the wider implications of their deeds, I concentrate on their raw power, showings and implied levels of strength.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sheevism didn't triumph; Sheevites just got louder and clung to even more ridiculous methods of argument

https://i.imgur.com/w3hUyFC.gif

At least Snokism effectively ended itself.

Wrong. I'm gonna be moving onto Snokism based on what I heard.

Good luck with that lol

Snoke is the canon Valkorion.

Yeah, an utter failure

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Snoke is the canon Valkorion.
Hang yourself.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, an utter failure

At least Snoke was cleverly outwitted by his apprentice.

Sidious was chucked down a shaft by an armless cyborg. He sure read Vader's intent there, as Vader looked back and forth, obviously feeling torn.

You blow Sidious way too hard.

Originally posted by The Lost
At least Snoke was cleverly outwitted by his apprentice.

Sidious was chucked down a shaft by an armless cyborg. He sure read Vader's intent there, as Vader looked back and forth, obviously feeling torn.

Yeah, that's because he didn't care if he died.

The Emperor's confidence rested on a sure knowledge of what he had become... and what the Dark Side could do for him. He seemed open to all the possibilities of the moment: Luke's death, Vader's death... even his own death.

No matter what the outcome of this terrible confrontation, he, Emperor Palpatine, would conquer.

Dark Empire Endnotes

Even in Canon, Sheev could have saved himself, but lost control of his emotions.

When at last he reaches the open shaft he hurls the Emperor down into the reactor. It's a long, long way down and the Emperor fires his lightning upward as he falls.

He might still have used his powers to save himself, but his hate is now so strong his only thought is to cause Vader more pain. So the lightning continues to flicker and flash even after the body is out of sight.

Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side

It's a meh explanation but better than Snoke getting betrayed and killed by Kylo Ren while talking big about how Kylo wouldn't betray him. Not to mention Sheev had way more successes throughout his career, both in Canon and Legends



Kinda impossible to blow a guy who has no dick.

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah, that's because he didn't care if he died.

The Emperor's confidence rested on a sure knowledge of what he had become... and what the Dark Side could do for him. He seemed open to all the possibilities of the moment: Luke's death, Vader's death... even his own death.

No matter what the outcome of this terrible confrontation, he, Emperor Palpatine, would conquer.

Dark Empire Endnotes

Don't care about Legends. Talking about the films.



Spoiler tags, dude.

Yeah, it is "meh." What a clown. Tossed around like a wild dog's corpse. Yeah, Snoke did talk that smack and was clouded by the fact that his apprentice wouldn't betray him but was still cleverly outmaneuvered when Kylo played on Snoke's reading of his intentions. A lot better than getting picked up by 127 Hours and chucked into a hole. Snoke took a solid outwitting to be put down. Sidious just wasn't paying attention and got 86'd.




Yet you make it happen, which showcases just how hard you blow this character.

"Cleverly outnabeuvered" lmao.
Snoke was reading Kylo's mind as Kylo turned that lightsaber and still somehow missed what was going on. As he was giving the DVD commentary to his own death.

Palpatine, on the other hand, was actually distracted and taken off guard by torturing Luke. And he still managed to kill his attacker, the guy that Snoke and Kylo both are apparently in love with.

Not sure you wanna do this, old friend. lol

Originally posted by Azronger
Kinda impossible to blow a guy who has no dick.
Yet another way he's inferior to Snoke, in addition to power in the Force..

Originally posted by The_Tempest
"Cleverly outnabeuvered" lmao.
Snoke was reading Kylo's mind as Kylo turned that lightsaber and still somehow missed what was going on. As he was giving the DVD commentary to his own death.

Kylo was setting it up so Snoke could feel his intentions and the actions that he was performing against both him and Rey at the same time. So while Snoke thought he was sensing Kylo pointing his saber at Rey, he was doing it to Snoke too and "killing his true enemy" was actually him killing Snoke. It was pretty clever.

"Clever"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
"Cleverly outnabeuvered" lmao.
Snoke was reading Kylo's mind as Kylo turned that lightsaber and still somehow missed what was going on. As he was giving the DVD commentary to his own death.

Yeah. Clearly. Can't stutter on a keyboard.

I mean, is there honestly anything to really do here? Snoke was focused on the advantages he was taking out of Ren. He had his eyes closed (showing this on his face) after going on about how he couldn't be beaten and was sure Kylo would follow orders. Kylo used this to his advantage because Kylo knows Snoke can read his intentions and knows what Kylo will do and Kylo doesn't have actual intentions of killing Rey so he uses this duality to outmaneuver Snoke. Yes, outmaneuver.



Yeah, he was distracted. It's why I said he wasn't paying attention. You like Sidious so much, you're seemingly becoming him. Yes, yes, he killed his attacker. Don't worry, no one forgot that the greatest and most amazing Star Wars character killed Vader. Sheesh.

I mean... Dude still got discarded like a moldy sandwich. Real talk.



https://i.imgur.com/MgTR9Fy.png

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
"Clever"

It was honestly the only way out of the situation and was the perfect way to take advantage of Snoke's telepathy and hubris.

The trick worked because Snoke was unable to pick up on the critical details of Kylo's intentions. In other words, his telepathy isn't very good, his hubris being that he thought otherwise.

Why is every jackass always attempting to dethrone ol' Papa Sheev? First it was Vitiate, now Snoke. Why do people hate the original big bad so much?

The Vitidiocy might not be over just yet. We'll see what this new expansion brings.

Vitidiocy will never go away. Perhaps this little war of ours will resume if he gets new feats, though. The Vitidiots will desperately latch onto anything to gain an advantage, even if it's total shit in reality. It's in their nature.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was honestly the only way out of the situation and was the perfect way to take advantage of Snoke's telepathy and hubris.

What? Having him narrate his own death and die in a way that left him impotent and unimportant? Yes, that was very "clever" writing.

Firstly, I was talking about Ren's plan being smart not the storytelling aspect.

Secondly, **** Snoke. I particularly don't care who he was or where he came from. Killing him off midway through the 2nd movie is probably the most interesting thing they could have done with him tbh. If he comes back and is interesting in his own right then cool but if he had to get short-changed for the far more interesting Kylo Ren to take center stage then its worth it.

Ah, fair enough. In universe it was clever on Ren's part and I actually don't mind what the action does for Ren's character. Only what it did for Snoke's.

I think completely sacrificing Snoke's potential to create an interesting story path for Ren is the wrong choice. They could have done both.

Sheevism won back in 2007 with Lightsnake, Gideon and co. The rest has mostly centered around other modern characters following suit and triumphing (.i.e. the Anakin movement).

Seems like the lost is upset over Snoke getting offed as soon as he arrived. Not everyone can be as successful and iconic as Palpatine. Try not to get so emotional.

Sheevism won without question. Bunch of Valkorion fangirls created nothing but ridiculous arguments.

^^^

LMAO

Looks like my identity has left a mark on the psyche of Sheevites.

^ the hilarious part is he sounds *exactly* like you.

Both Vitiate and Sidious are in the same pot. They are both overrated in their feats. Even the context of their feats is misunderstood. Especially about the whole Sidious-vs-Windu/Yoda duel where apparently Sidious never 'lost', but he threw the battle in the first case 100% which I find it horrendous. Even in the Sidious-Yoda duel, it's safe to say that Yoda lost the battle because he felt 'spiritually' defeated; the deaths of so many Jedi broke his desire to fight, maybe even Force-weakened him(?)

1. Vitiate

Vitiate is overrated in his Ritual of Medriaas. Some say that this is a huge feat because that ritual was designed to kill everyone, even him. But that's stupid, because that ritual was conjured by Vitiate to take every life on Medriaas and absorb it into himself. Based on this; there are people who think Vitiate can defend himself against Force drain or Force Wound drain(Nihilus) because he designed a ritual to make himself stronger.
After Medriaas became Nathema, we never saw Vitiate performing such a ritual. We saw that he exacted the Ritual of Ziost, but the Force flow came back on the planet some thousand(?), maybe hundred years later.

This leads me to believe that Vitiate did not have in mind to create a Force 'void', it was just a random, an anomaly, a wild card that happened once.

His ability to drain Medriaas is very overrated; he never drained it on his own; he needed the help of 8000 Sith Lords. In fact, you could argue that the collective power of the group is what began to consume Medriaas of its life-force and Force energy.

Not that I am diminishing his accomplishment. After all he managed to keep 8000 Sith Lords under his influence. And they were no slouches either; otherwise Vitiate wouldn't have chosen them if they didn't contain as a group enough Force power for the ritual.

IIRC, about the Ziost Ritual, he had accomplished it as a spirit. But he needed some amount of deaths in order to begin the ritual(that's why he began possessing Sith and Jedi on that planet).

Don't get me wrong; I don't underestimate his Force knowledge, nor his sorcery talents. But it seems that, in order to set a ritual to drain a planet, he needs outer Force reserves. But let's say he was already weak as a spirit, and we all understand him.

2. Darth Sidious

His ability to create Force storms(worm holes) is one of the major things that sets him as the supreme Sith-Lord-Of-Them-All. But those Force storms can be conjured when a user wields the dark side energies around them(that's why some of his adepts could conjure them too, but lacked the control); unless you want to state that they are equal in Force strength to him. That's why Sidious could conjure them on Byss and the Eclipses. Those places were filled with dark side energy.

Another thing for which Palpatine is enormously overrated is his ability to manipulate the mind of billions of citizens on Byss and mind-wipe 7 trillion of Coruscant people to forget about his big ships.
Let's pause for a second here: these two feats were executed on non-Force sensitive subjects.
If he could really mind wipe anyone; he would have already done it with the Jedi Order and any other Force-user who stood in his way. But we all know that it takes more effort to subjugate a Force-sensitive's mind.

Before anyone using Kam Solusar as an example. The emperor never mind-controlled him in the first place. Actually it was stated in the Dark Empire comics(IIRC), that it was the physical torture that broke his will(thus, his memories) and subjected him to Sidious' influence.

We also know about Palpatine's drain of Byss; this is another feat for Sheevites to give him an edge into a versus.
First of all; he never drained the planet; he only drained the lives of the citizens(non-Force sensitive and defenseless) It took him decades. And he drained it alongside his Dark Side Adepts(or Prophets were those?)

It took Vitiate just a few weeks in his first ritual, and in second one(maybe some days?) and some deaths.

I could give Vitiate the edge in this section.


Let's talk about his duels with both Windu and Yoda.

-vs Windu

There is no proof that he threw off the fight 100%. We see that he had a good sparring match with Windu. Before you all bring in his Matrix speed feat; keep in mind that Ulic-Qel-Droma executed a similar feat in Onderon(weakened by its dark side ambiance)

Yes, Palpatine quickly got rid off those other Jedi. You have to keep in mind, though, that these modern Jedi never fought the Sith. They weren't yet accustomed to their enemy's fighting style.

It's like saying that the Flash is the biggest hero and an experienced fighter. But wait 'til he meets the Reverse-Flash. Of course he is gonna have his ass whooped a few times because he isn't ready to fight someone with similar abilities and different but similar discipline.

Back on topic, could Palpatine have continued the fight after he was put down when Anakin arrived? Definitely. You could say that's where Palpatine began to throw off the fight. But before that, both Windu and Palpatine were on equal ground. Windu's Vaapad is what allowed him to use Palpatine's darkness(dark emotions) to unleash his own Force strength against the Sith Lord. That's what Vaapad does. It is the opposite of Juyo. Instead of using your own emotions to unleash your Force strength, you use your enemy's darkness to unleash your Force strength.

-vs Yoda

As mentioned above in my first paragraphs. Nowhere does it mention that Palpatine had a fair-win against Yoda in their duel. If you watched the movie or even read the book; you would notice that it is the shift of the poles(darkness overcoming the light) that signified the defeat of the Jedi-->the defeat of Yoda. That's why Yoda exiled himself; because he failed his order.

Yes, Sidious did use Force concealment all these decades, even amongst the Jedi. But no one suspected him from the beginning, nor his master Plagueis.
That's why they were able to do what they have done. That's why Tenebrous said that the Force works better in the Sith's advantage because they don't wear an armor, but are a shadow, or something similar to that line.

Yes, Palpatine did manage to probe Plagueis' mind and 'manipulate' Plagueis into thinking that Sidious' plans were his own(though, I daresay Palpatine was just cocky)

But, don't forget that Plagueis never shielded his own mind from Palpatine-that gave him a weak spot. That was the whole story of Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise(novel); the Sith Muun was so arrogant and thought he can break free from the devouring cycle of the dark side where the apprentice kills the master and would live forever(surely he did the same to Tenebrous; but he never thought that the Force is a karma that hits you with tragedies)

Once again; I don't diminish their accomplishments.

Also, Palpatine, as far as I am aware of, has never been confirmed as the strongest Sith Lord of all histories. His title of Ultimate Sith revolves around the order which he was part of-the Order of the Banite Lords.

And it isn't his 'immeasurable' Force strength that makes him the baddest of the Banite Order; but his cunning, his social&political intellect and his military power. That's what makes Palpatine the most successful Sith Lord(and in many writers' eyes, the most powerful Sith Lord). He didn't use the fist to cripple and conquer the galaxy, but his brain.

^

That doesn't answer the question of the thread, and there's so much wrong information there I'm not even going to bother. Except the source for Coruscant having 7 trillion citizens - I want that.

Originally posted by Azronger
^

That doesn't answer the question of the thread, and there's so much wrong information there I'm not even going to bother. Except the source for Coruscant having 7 trillion citizens - I want that.

Coruscant doesn't have 7 trillion, they only have 1 trillion.

I know, just asking if that guy has something we don't.

tbh the one trillion figure is cancer if you do the math, it should be quadrillions.

Originally posted by Azronger
^

That doesn't answer the question of the thread, and there's so much wrong information there I'm not even going to bother. Except the source for Coruscant having 7 trillion citizens - I want that.

I thought it had 7 trillions, my mistake. But it's been said on reddit and Comic Vine in the old threads. I am not a planet-expert, though.





I do not think there's so much wrong information, except the number of Coruscant people.

For your own knowledge, I did read the entire Dark Empire Trilogy, and visited the Darth Sidious Respect Thread/s.

And these are the major feats for which Sidious is heralded as the Supreme Sith Lord.

Lol

I wonder what Vitiate actually looked like, as in his first body. He was a red sith, or at least half one, cannot remember if his mum was a non-force sensitive red sith or human.

Originally posted by Azronger
Lol