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(Obvious spoilers)

So Snoke's story clearly hasn't turned out the way we thought it would (unless if Abrams does a switcheroo and brings him back).

So, what does this mean for his placement in the canon?

From what I can tell, we know:

1. He's weaker than Luke, at least as of the last the galaxy had seen him. The Visual Dictionary states that Snoke thinks only a Skywalker can kill Luke, e.g. he personally isn't up to the task.

2. He's vastly more powerful (in actualized ability) than Rey and probably by extension Kylo, though we don't have a clear picture of how strong these two are either except that they're almost certainly weaker than Vader. We can extrapolate from Kylo's potential + years of training that he's probably pretty powerful, but by how much, it's difficult to say.

3. His Force bridge and telepathy seem to be pretty impressive. They're almost certainly above the likes of, say, TPM Maul or AotC Obi Wan. Not sure how far above it puts him though.

4. Andy Serkis claims Snoke is more powerful than Sidious or Vader because "his resources are limitless" but that doesn't make much syntactical sense and I'm not sure how much stock we should put in actor opinions (unless if Mace Windu is still alive).

5. It's not enough to say "he's featless so he's weak", you know, absence of evidence != evidence of absence. Without the evidence to back it up it's unlikely he's Palpatine level, but it's not a given that he's some random weakling either.

6. I get the impression from the way Luke, Han and co. talk about him that he's not on the level of someone like Palpatine. Luke saw Palpatine as a threat on a galactic scale, but he just sort of is like "oh Snoke is manipulating Kylo" and I wonder if he bothers that much to hunt him down pre-TFA.

Even Bane ragdolls.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Andy Serkis claims Snoke is more powerful than Sidious or Vader because "his resources are limitless" but that doesn't make much syntactical sense and I'm not sure how much stock we should put in actor opinions (unless if Mace Windu is still alive).
Pablo said his comments weren't to be taken seriously on Twitter.

Failed "Dark Lord of the Sith" in Kaans Brotherhood of Darkness.

Sub-Maul

Power level wise, he's below TPM until further evidence arises.

Well, he's definitely weaker than Luke as of his prime, whenever that was( in the past, or maybe even TLJ):



He seems to be pretty scared of Luke.

Above TPM Maul, below CW Maul.

Given that Snoke knows how the original Empire fell, the type of morale boost Luke Skywalker would afford the resistance, and that he explicitly says in TFA that Skywalker's return could mean the return of the Jedi Order, (I.e. Things beyond just Luke's strength in the force or skill with the lightsaber,) I don't think that's definitive enough evidence to say "Snoke is weaker in the force than Luke Skywalker." You could easily argue that he is, but not by any statements that Snoke has made.

Later on I'm gonna make a post as to why I rank Snoke as highly as I do.

He's weaker than Palpatine imho

Snoke refers to the rise of the Jedi Order if Luke returns, once, yes. That doesn't have anything to do with the passages I posted.

Contextually speaking, the last thing Snoke has in mind in this instance, is fear for a Jedi Order that may take years or maybe even decades to rise again. It is as obvious as daylight that he is simply scared of Luke as a person in the way Luke is referenced there. These are immediate instances and planning for immediate events.

I doubt that Snoke is above Dooku.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Later on I'm gonna make a post as to why I rank Snoke as highly as I do.

Because you suck rancid cock.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
Snoke refers to the rise of the Jedi Order if Luke returns, once, yes. That doesn't have anything to do with the passages I posted.

Contextually speaking, the last thing Snoke has in mind in this instance, is fear for a Jedi Order that may take years or maybe even decades to rise again. It is as obvious as daylight that he is simply scared of Luke as a person in the way Luke is referenced there. These are immediate instances and planning for immediate events.

Yes, but even regardless of the Jedi Order being re-formed, Snoke still has more reason to fear Luke other than his mastery of the force or skill with a lightsaber. At least enough so that his fear of Luke isn't 100% definitive proof that his mastery of the force is inferior.

Heck, even Sidious felt it was absolutely imperative that they found and stopped/killed Luke, and feared that he could destroy the Sith.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I doubt that Snoke is above Dooku.



Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Because you suck rancid cock.

Snoke is on Vader/Dooku/Mace tier IMO

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yes, but even regardless of the Jedi Order being re-formed, Snoke still has more reason to fear Luke other than his mastery of the force or skill with a lightsaber. At least enough so that his fear of Luke isn't 100% definitive proof that his mastery of the force is inferior.

Heck, even Sidious felt it was absolutely imperative that they found and stopped/killed Luke, and feared that he could destroy the Sith.

Well, obviously when I used the term "definitely", I used it loosely. Character opinions are never 100% correct. Rephrasing it, I'll simply say that it is quite likely that it is so. Certainly I wouldn't discount it.

That said, my friend, Sidious feared Luke's potential, or raw power. Much in the same way as Luke feared Rey's( except that Luke's potential is much above Palpatine's). He feared that if he didn't destroy or convert the Jedi soon, Luke would grow too powerful to be contained. Palpatine's contempt for Luke's actualized powers is also made pretty clear.

Snoke's fears don't match up to that. Snoke is afraid that Luke will end his exile, and return. Luke is 53, and while he may not have actualized his potential, I don't think Snoke is worried that Luke is going to grow exponentially more powerful or anything like that. Neither is he looking in to the far future, and fearing a Jedi Order rising, judging by his demeanor and simply looking at context.

The most likely explanation, is that he is simply afraid of Luke as he is. Alright, the fear here, is subjective in nature. It in of itself isn't a guarantee or anything that Luke's mastery is definitely superior. But it is a pretty solid piece of evidence to be taken in for consideration, in my opinion.

Snoke, at this point, has the Republic in a pincer like grip. His superweapon can and will annihilate the heart of the Republic. His remaining forces hugely outnumber the opposition's. The Knights of Ren are his to command( presumably). He doesn't need to worry about politics, military, or anything like that, because his opponents don't have comparable leverage in any of those areas. What difference would Luke make then, that Snoke fears him so much? The resistance is pretty motivated, and BM isn't a thing in canon. New Jedi Order? Fantasy. At least in the short term, which is what Snoke's concerned with.

Surely you see where I am going with this. I don't see why there isn't a very likely chance of it, to be honest.

@Skillz the visual dictionary says Snoke thinks only a Skywalker can kill Luke. That seems pretty clear to me, and I don't think there's overwhelming evidence (or much at all) to go against it - it fits exactly what we'd expect given Luke's potential.

Another thing that caught my eye in the new Visual Dictionary is the Praetorian Guards are needed to fight for Snoke thanks to his frail body.

i'm with stupendous wave and star wars theory that snoke is more powerful thansidious

most powerful non-enitty force user we've seen

could maul sidious dooku etc do to rey what snoke did? i doubt it.

Why not?

My thoughts:

Let's first look at the OT. Lucas tells us that Yoda and Sidious, the two masters/teachers of the Light and Dark sides, are 'beyond' lightsabers. That's why we never see them using it, because they've gone beyond the need to use them. I feel like Johnson has emulated this with the new trilogy. The two big guys of both sides of the force are Luke and Snoke, both of whom aren't really going to use lightsabers in any context, since their abilities in the force are just that good that they don't need to use one in a competitive fight really. We can't use the Luke vs Ben fight as an example, because Luke was just stalling Kylo and clearly toying around. Snoke is too physically weak, but we can't put it beyond him to actually augment himself like Yoda. Overall, the theme of the big goodie and big badie being beyond lightsabers, with the main characters , so in this instance Kylo and Rey still using them is a direct mirror of the OT.

It's too early to really debate Snoke vs Luke. We don't have enough feats. For now, Snoke is clearly above Ben and Rey, just as Luke is clearly above them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why not?


maul fought a padawan in obi wan yet he never ragdolled him the way snoke ragdolled rey, when maul had the incentive to do so.

He's prob more powerful than Maul but I don't know how he's above Sidious.

I think he's established himself as pretty powerful if he can detect and ragdoll an attempt on his life by a pissed off grandson of Anakin.

Originally posted by samappo
I think he's established himself as pretty powerful if he can detect and ragdoll an attempt on his life by a pissed off grandson of Anakin.

I mean Kylo stood up in visible anger, not sure if that's a really impressive precog fight.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean Kylo stood up in visible anger, not sure if that's a really impressive precog fight.

It was a pretty quick reaction from Snoke I thought. Anyway, I think the ragdolling of any combination of "Skywalker" + "pissed off" is impressive.

Originally posted by samappo
It was a pretty quick reaction from Snoke I thought. Anyway, I think the ragdolling of any combination of "Skywalker" + "pissed off" is impressive.

Eh, it seems more like he caught an unarmed Kylo off guard there by bouncing lightning off the floor. I agree that Snoke isn't weak, maybe Dooku level? IDK.

I feel like Dooku level is a little too little for Snoke ... but we have no way of knowing.

Regardless of the circumstances, I don't think Ben could take on Snoke in a fair force contest, and he's a Skywalker .

Kylo isn't weak but difficult to place. We know almost for certain that he's weaker than Vader...but he could be like anywhere.

Honestly we're being really speculative here - we have no hard lower and upper limit to how strong he is relative to PT/OT characters.

It would be weird if a Skywalker of Ben's age and training were still weaker than, say, one of the B-team, so I think Snoke is solidly above Maul because I don't think Maul could ragdoll Kit Fisto and co.

Author intent aside, Snoke ragdolling Rey isn't a display of Force power beyond moving a person.

There's no passive Force barriers in Canon, nor did Rey indicate she threw up any active Force barriers.

The best we've seen of Snoke telekinesis (again, author intent aside) is overpowering Rey's grip of the lightsaber.

There are obviously passive Force barriers in Canon, otherwise Obi Wan would've just Force pushed Anakin into the lava.

No, there isn't. You missed this, but we had a thread on it. There's absolutely not.

I'll look for the thread.

Or rather there's some defense against TK and maybe Rey didn't know of it (but she seems to magically know everything else).

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t642433.html

Essentially, telekinesis only works when the person is vulnerable and / or has an opening in their defenses.

There's no innate Force barrier protecting individuals like in Legends, though.

The Darth Vader comics especially show this by Vader being capable of choking Jedi Masters when they're unprepared, but the same Masters can resist when they're prepared.

I thought that was how they worked in Legends too lol. As in, you have to be prepared by keeping your barrier up, but anyway.

No. In Legends, all Force users have lesser / passive Force barriers that are active at all times. They can then also throw up active Force barriers, which are far stronger and a reflection of their power.

In Canon, it's more of if the individual is prepared or not. The general defense to telekinesis is returning the favor with a telekinetic attack back on the person, also (ROTS, Vader comics, etc.).

(more on last page)

The point is, then, that Rey was essentially helpless against Snoke. She was blatantly not prepared, nor did she use telekinesis to try to counter Snoke's attacks. Thus, it's not necessarily a power feat on Snoke's part.

That being said, the author intent here is obvious.

Yeah, it's obvious that Snoke is above Ben and Rey, just like it's made clear that Luke is also clearly above them.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(more on last page)

The point is, then, that Rey was essentially helpless against Snoke. She was blatantly not prepared, nor did she use telekinesis to try to counter Snoke's attacks. Thus, it's not necessarily a power feat on Snoke's part.

That being said, the author intent here is obvious.

I guess we have no idea to whether Rey can put up Force barriers. I assumed she could because she seemed to have learned a bunch of Force abilities randomly, but ah well.



That's an interesting question. I think Dooku would stand a chance against TPM Maul but I don't think he could beat prime Maul unarmed, no.

But then again my Snoke = Dooku guess is just that, the only clear limit to me is that I'm 90% sure he's below Vader.

I didn't necessarily think that he was like "Vader omg wish I was him". Saw it more as a tool to control Ben.

Originally posted by samappo
I didn't necessarily think that he was like "Vader omg wish I was him". Saw it more as a tool to control Ben.

Yeah, it's still possible he's above Vader, but I don't see the evidence for it.

No, we don't have the evidence. All we may do is speculate until the novelisation or even 9 comes out....

Though I'm certain the novel is gonna provide us with new debating material concerning the power of Luke, Snoke, Ben and Rey.

Snoke is frail and physically inept as a combatant, that's his weakness. That's why he isn't taking Luke personally, that's why he needs guards to defend him. None of that however defines his power in the Force.

Apparently, despite whatever Force power he has, he's too stupid to survive a double cross that could never happen to him in like a million years you guyz.

What Kylo did was genius actually. It's also infinitely better than how Palpatine got off'd by Vader.

So what you're saying is that Snoke would defeat Palpatine in a saber fight?

How the hell did you reach that conclusion? Kylo used Snoke's own confidence in TP to allow Snoke to drop his guard.

Originally posted by AncientPower
How the hell did you reach that conclusion? Kylo used Snoke's own confidence in TP to allow Snoke to drop his guard.

He's a little too serious at times.

I think what happened was an attempt to amplify Kylo's phrase: Let old things die/let the past die.

What do we get in TLJ? We have another 'emperor', who talks like the emperor same sort of settings, same looking guards, throne room etc. What Johnson did was take that, and remove it. Kylo says let old things die. Let these dark side users like the emperor and Snoke die, let's have a new villain, a different one. Let's show audiences a new diet emperor, then get rid of him in one quick stroke in the second movie of the trilogy.

I think Rian actually has the theme of the new trilogy as "Let the past die", it's painfully obvious in my eyes.

Originally posted by AncientPower
How the hell did you reach that conclusion? Kylo used Snoke's own confidence in TP to allow Snoke to drop his guard. I know how to read between the lines:

Originally posted by AncientPower
...also infinitely better than... Palpatine... In a thread about how powerful Snoke is. Busted.



Originally posted by samappo
I think Rian actually has the theme of the new trilogy as "Let the past die", it's painfully obvious in my eyes. Thank God for your eyes then, because nobody else definitely figured that really obvious thing out.

Someone woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning...

I'm being humble in my interpretation of the movie considering all the whack ideas that have been going around such as Snoke being the most powerful force user ever. With stupid logic used for that, there's no guarantee that people actually see the meanings of the movie. Just like people saying that Rey > Luke because of their little duel.

Originally posted by samappo
Someone woke up on the wrong side of bed this morning...

I'm being humble in my interpretation of the movie considering all the whack ideas that have been going around such as Snoke being the most powerful force user ever. With stupid logic used for that, there's no guarantee that people actually see the meanings of the movie. Just like people saying that Rey > Luke because of their little duel. It's almost like people watch these movies about space wizards and robots, and... take them way too f*cking seriously... It's almost like people who spend all their time arguing about which fictional person is better at swinging not-real laser swords at other fictional people... care way too f*cking much about those things I just said.



Did you know I have over 23,000 posts here over 12 years? Every single one of them is me not wasting my life arguing about a fandom that makes other people rich.

Between Dooku and Vader

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's almost like people watch these movies about space wizards and robots, and... take them way too f*cking seriously... It's almost like people who spend all their time arguing about which fictional person is better at swinging not-real laser swords at other fictional people... care way too f*cking much about those things I just said.



Did you know I have over 23,000 posts here over 12 years? Every single one of them is me not wasting my life arguing about a fandom that makes other people rich.

I guess calling yourself out on your hypocrisy 9 mile style is a clever move.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Between Dooku and Vader That's either a really large or really small gap depending on the person.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's almost like people watch these movies about space wizards and robots, and... take them way too f*cking seriously... It's almost like people who spend all their time arguing about which fictional person is better at swinging not-real laser swords at other fictional people... care way too f*cking much about those things I just said.



Did you know I have over 23,000 posts here over 12 years? Every single one of them is me not wasting my life arguing about a fandom that makes other people rich.

Says the one getting visibly angry over this ....

If you're gonna be a dick to people and start lecturing them on why you think that people on a ****ing EU Star Wars Forum are taking their discussions seriously ... wtf.

Originally posted by Kurk
That's either a really large or really small gap depending on the person.
Vader's definitely more powerful than Dooku, but not by a lot. It'd be a hell of a fight.

And I'm only speaking in terms of power since obviously Snoke doesn't use a lightsaber.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I guess calling yourself out on your hypocrisy 9 mile style is a clever move. I know, right? I'm really proud of that one.

Originally posted by samappo
Says the one getting visibly angry over this ....

If you're gonna be a dick to people and start lecturing them on why you think that people on a ****ing EU Star Wars Forum are taking their discussions seriously ... wtf. Don't say f*ck, it makes you look visibly angry despite not being visible.

Yes sir, spank me harder.

I'll get my cane and some Vaseline.

Heath Ledger and Liam Neeson? mmm

The most powerful force user we have ever seen in the films, clearly. Snoke truly is worthy of the title supreme.

I'm withholding judgement until I read the novel.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm withholding judgement until I read the novel.


Personally, I can't decide if he's sub Maul or greater than Palpatine, rofl.

Yep, we need way more context and far less interpretation.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yep, we need way more context and far less interpretation.
Agreed it's fun to speculate though

Snoke>ESB Luke.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I'm withholding judgement until I read the novel.

Yeah there's nothing (much) stopping the author from saying "Snoke is even more powerful than Palpatine", but as of now the evidence doesn't support it.

Even if that happens, how seriously are we taking that? The adaptations aren't even Canon in the respect "Canon" is described by the Story Group as content that future works are beholden to, yet these adaptations aren't. There's an entire scene in The Force Awakens novel where Rey and Poe Dameron meet, yet they don't meet for the first time until The Last Jedi. The Last Jedi could write how Snoke is the Son of Mortis resurrected but that doesn't mean it has any weight.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Above TPM Maul, below CW Maul.
So, anyone want to tell me what guys like Maul, Kenobi, or Dooku have done that's in the league of taking two force users in seperate parts of the galaxy, and then physically bridging them?

Telekinesis isn't the only kind of feat you know.

^ He's got a point. Far beyond Maul/Dooku or even Vader level for sure, at least that specific feat is.

Arguably, yes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Even if that happens, how seriously are we taking that? The adaptations aren't even Canon in the respect "Canon" is described by the Story Group as content that future works are beholden to, yet these adaptations aren't. There's an entire scene in The Force Awakens novel where Rey and Poe Dameron meet, yet they don't meet for the first time until The Last Jedi. The Last Jedi could write how Snoke is the Son of Mortis resurrected but that doesn't mean it has any weight.


Yep. I’d take novelisation Canon with a grain of salt.


But tbh that might extend to most of the novels and comics. Even source books. They’re just good for greater insight it seems.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
So, anyone want to tell me what guys like Maul, Kenobi, or Dooku have done that's in the league of taking two force users in seperate parts of the galaxy, and then physically bridging them?

Telekinesis isn't the only kind of feat you know.

I think it's not impressive at all. The most impressive force feat in TLJ was done by Laia, ressurecting her frozen body and Merry Popping through the vacuum of space to safety was more impressive, followed by Lukes Physical interacting Illusion (he touched Laia, the dices were semi physical that even Kylo after Lukes death could lift them from ground). Connecting two minds is nothing other jedis haven't done already. Some communicate that way. Rey is a rookie below a Padawan, Kylo is an emo child that lacks the control to be a proper Padawan. Ragdolling Master Kenobi and Jedi Knight Anakin is what makes Dooku much more powerful than Snoke. His fight against the Nightsisters also. Vader in his glory would have taken Snoke and all his guards at once without breaking a sweat. Maul took Master Qui-Gon and Padawan Kenobi, this is something I think Snoke would... actually no, Qui-Gon would end Snoke. So below TPM Maul.

To be fair, Kylo sort of alludes that the bridging of their minds would kill a normal force user such as Rey .

There's no way to quantify how good bridging a connection between two force users is. What we do know, is that unless he gets up from being cut in half in the next film. No one has to hold him above Maul.

Could Vader or Dooku survive being cut in half? No? Then clearly they're below Maul, hey.

Seriously, arguing that a physically frail person can't survive being cut in half in some way indicates that their power in the force isn't as strong as Maul's? Vader definitely couldn't.

Originally posted by samappo
Could Vader or Dooku survive being cut in half? No? Then clearly they're below Maul, hey.

Want to show me the scene wear they can't?

Originally posted by samappo
Could Vader or Dooku survive being cut in half? No? Then clearly they're below Maul, hey.
Vader can for sure. Dooku might survive it.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Vader can for sure. Dooku might survive it. Vader can't even survive without a suit.

Moron.



Dooku could not either, kiddo.

Originally posted by An_Sock
Want to show me the scene wear they can't? It is up to you to prove your claim not for others to disprove it. You're an idiotic sock. Vader can't even survive without a suit keeping him alive.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Connecting two minds is nothing other jedis haven't done already.
Except he didn't just connect their minds, he made them physically interact from across the galaxy.

Not seeing pulling yourself several yards towards a ship is remotely comparable.

What has Kenobi done that makes ragdolling him comparatively impressive?

No idea why you're brining Luke into this. Aside from me never arguing snoke was his superior, he didn't actually physically interact with anything per the word of the director. Hence why there were no footsteps.

Your claims that all of Snoke's guards= Ren would have been fodder for Kenobi are baseless and not relevant since not one of the people you mentioned was shit to Snoke.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Except he didn't just connect their minds, he made them physically interact from across the galaxy.




Yeah and his TP is so amazing he had no idea Kylo was about to attack him while actively reading his mind!

Frigging amazing TP. Nothing like it before in the Saga!

D. Thor's bias is so plain to see.

Snoke pretty much seems this Valkorion type of guy who's immensely powerful but has also immense gaps in abilities and is frankly also pretty stupid

in all honesty hes probably around Dooku level Force wielder but no higher

Originally posted by relentless1
in all honesty hes probably around Dooku level Force wielder but no higher Nah, Serkis admitted he's more powerful than Sidious and Vader. Disney went bigger and badder in every fashion.

oh yeah i forgot that you take actors word as canon lmao

and Snoke having anything to do with that mental bridge was highly exaggerated or an out and out lie on his part because Rey and Kylo had that connection when she was about to leave on the Falcon at the end of the film and Snoke obviously wasn't around to "facilitate" so any involvement he had in that feat was minimal instead

Originally posted by relentless1
oh yeah i forgot that you take actors word as canon lmao

So I should take yours over the guy who worked with the director on the film ? GTFO. Would it make sense for the story group to say make him Dooku level considering the Starkiller Base, the ships, the tracking, and the military might of the First Order ? Would Disney go big ?

Originally posted by relentless1
and Snoke having anything to do with that mental bridge was highly exaggerated or an out and out lie on his part because Rey and Kylo had that connection when she was about to leave on the Falcon at the end of the film and Snoke obviously wasn't around to "facilitate" so any involvement he had in that feat was minimal instead He says it in the film but you want to disregard canon because you're a fanboy. You're upset he's powerful. Snoke is at the top of the mountain.

facts are facts; Ren and Rey established that same connection after Snoke was long gone, they did it not him

Originally posted by relentless1
facts are facts; Ren and Rey established that same connection after Snoke was long gone, they did it not him He established the bridge. He says it. You are just proving you're biased and can't have a reasonable discussion. It's pitiful. Snoke is the most powerful we have ever seen.

The way I see it, Snoke's strength is contingent on the strength of Kylo and Rey. and oh boy, Kylo and Rey are strong as hell.

As Ellimist has said, Ren has sheer power/potential that Luke has only otherwise seen in Rey (who is Ren's equal in the light). Furthermore, Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, hence why he's one of the most powerful characters in galactic history:



Snoke says at the end of TFA that he's going to "complete Kylo's training." What did this training entail, though? As we see in TLJ: resolve. Snoke knew that Ren hadn't fully committed himself to the dark side, and that the deed of killing Han Solo essentially split his spirit in half. Snoke felt that Kylo would become the next Vader once he'd fully given himself to the dark side.

That's it.

Kylo has all the skills, he's a Skywalker who's been training all his life. He has the raw power. He only lacks resolve. This is why Snoke essentially starts wanking the shit out of Kylo before he dies: he sensed that Kylo was becoming the true heir apparent to Lord Vader by no longer being conflicted and being, like Anakin against Dooku, as clear as a crystal bell mentally.

Heck, one could liken Kylo to Mustafar Vader in that sense. Anakin was overwhelmed by fear, and as Rey notes in TFA, Kylo had a crippling fear that he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader.

Aside from injury, that's also why I think Rey was able to defeat Kylo in TFA. Not only is Rey Kylo's equivalent on the light side (meaning that as Kylo grows stronger, as does Rey, at least according to Snoke,) but she has a degree of resolve that Ren certainly didn't possess. Snoke notes this multiple times, (still that fiery spit of hope! You have the spirit of a true Jedi!).

And yet, despite all of this, Kylo and Rey's current power levels, as Ellimist noted in the OP, aren't exactly close to that of Snoke.

Of course we see Snoke casually meld Kylo and Rey's minds from across the galaxy, to the point where they are connecting physically, (Ren notes that such an exertion of power would kill Rey, who is his own equal). We have Snoke overpowering Rey's grip on the lightsaber with the utmost ease, ragdolling Rey essentially without moving, and easily ripping all the knowledge he wanted from Rey's mind, (remember when Kylo was overpowered in a TP bout with Rey when she didn't even know she could use the force?). Keeping in mind that even after Kylo found his resolve, his applicable strength in the force was still on par with Rey's given their struggle to gain the lightsaber.

Ultimately, a lot of this is subjective, but the way I see it, Ren is extremely powerful and skilled, Rey equally so, and Snoke's power visibly dwarfed both of theirs.

Yeah but Rey's power is really inconsistently expressed. Ex: she sees those rocks covering the escape and does lift them but seems surprised she can. Why should we think she was putting up a competent defense against Snoke?

Also the Visual Dictionary basically says Luke > Snoke and I don't see strong enough contrary evidence to override it.

As Ant has said, I think the intent of the scene is pretty clear.

And regardless, I don't think you can really get around Snoke casually overpowering Rey's grip on the lightsaber, ripping knowledge from Rey's mind at will (remember when Kylo tried the same thing on a much less experienced Rey?), and casually performing a feat that Kylo stated would kill Rey.

And I don't think I mentioned Luke once.

Well authorial intent also seems to say Rey is really raw and untrained but OK.

Ah that's just cause you said Snoke could be above Luke elsewhere.

Any thoughts beyond that?

It's really not a bad thing for Snoke to be a Dooku level Force user, guys.

He's clearly not just a Dooku-level force user, though, imho.

The whole lack of training with Rey is what really, really bothers me. I get TFA to an extent(even though this was also a little face scrunching), but I mean TLJ wasted the opportunity to train Rey properly....and then I'm suppose to believe she can fight well trained guards tasked with protecting Snoke after what...a day or a day and a half, self training with a lightsaber?

So the Praetorian guards can have a somewhat decent fight with Kylo yet also at the same time, lose to Rey who shouldn't have anywhere near the capacity as of yet to fight trained guards within the confines of melee? Much less with the guards utilizing different weaponry.

The lack of training is what mostly bothers me, moreso than the characters involved.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
He's clearly not just a Dooku-level force user, though, imho. He is obviously much more powerful than Dooku but you're fighting up against the inherent bias of fanboyism so despite the obvious power of those scenes with Snoke interacting with Rey and Kylo you'll see their entire case based off a visual dictionary quote and how they interpet it. A truly laughable defense.

Originally posted by Trocity
It's really not a bad thing for Snoke to be a Dooku level Force user, guys. It isn't accurate so who cares what you think. Like Disney was sitting around saying the big bad boss of Kylo is Dooku level. **** no they went bigger and badder in every regard. The ships, tech, power, abilities, and feats in this trilogy are beyond the film showings of the Ot and Pt.

It isn't as widespread but it's definitely more impressive in an all out war. Their tech is far superior so who cares how many more ships and fleets they have when they are vastly inferior to the First Order. Starkiller base, Death Star tech, light speed tracking, Supremacy, etc.

First Order would decimate the empire. They intimidate while Sidious does his feminine duplicitous thing in the shadows like a true shady galactic politician. Snoke would bring his empire to its knees with what we see from the First Order.

What kind of an impact did the atomic bomb have ? Weapons of mass destruction and superior tech matters significantly.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The way I see it, Snoke's strength is contingent on the strength of Kylo and Rey. and oh boy, Kylo and Rey are strong as hell.

As Ellimist has said, Ren has sheer power/potential that Luke has only otherwise seen in Rey (who is Ren's equal in the light). Furthermore, Ren has a lifetime of training and practice, hence why he's one of the most powerful characters in galactic history:



Snoke says at the end of TFA that he's going to "complete Kylo's training." What did this training entail, though? As we see in TLJ: resolve. Snoke knew that Ren hadn't fully committed himself to the dark side, and that the deed of killing Han Solo essentially split his spirit in half. Snoke felt that Kylo would become the next Vader once he'd fully given himself to the dark side.

That's it.

Kylo has all the skills, he's a Skywalker who's been training all his life. He has the raw power. He only lacks resolve. This is why Snoke essentially starts wanking the shit out of Kylo before he dies: he sensed that Kylo was becoming the true heir apparent to Lord Vader by no longer being conflicted and being, like Anakin against Dooku, as clear as a crystal bell mentally.

Heck, one could liken Kylo to Mustafar Vader in that sense. Anakin was overwhelmed by fear, and as Rey notes in TFA, Kylo had a crippling fear that he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader.

Aside from injury, that's also why I think Rey was able to defeat Kylo in TFA. Not only is Rey Kylo's equivalent on the light side (meaning that as Kylo grows stronger, as does Rey, at least according to Snoke,) but she has a degree of resolve that Ren certainly didn't possess. Snoke notes this multiple times, (still that fiery spit of hope! You have the spirit of a true Jedi!).

And yet, despite all of this, Kylo and Rey's current power levels, as Ellimist noted in the OP, aren't exactly close to that of Snoke.

Of course we see Snoke casually meld Kylo and Rey's minds from across the galaxy, to the point where they are connecting physically, (Ren notes that such an exertion of power would kill Rey, who is his own equal). We have Snoke overpowering Rey's grip on the lightsaber with the utmost ease, ragdolling Rey essentially without moving, and easily ripping all the knowledge he wanted from Rey's mind, (remember when Kylo was overpowered in a TP bout with Rey when she didn't even know she could use the force?). Keeping in mind that even after Kylo found his resolve, his applicable strength in the force was still on par with Rey's given their struggle to gain the lightsaber.

Ultimately, a lot of this is subjective, but the way I see it, Ren is extremely powerful and skilled, Rey equally so, and Snoke's power visibly dwarfed both of theirs.
Well said

about 317.45 power

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik

Originally posted by quanchi112
It isn't as widespread but it's definitely more impressive in an all out war. Their tech is far superior so who cares how many more ships and fleets they have when they are vastly inferior to the First Order. Starkiller base, Death Star tech, light speed tracking, Supremacy, etc.

First Order would decimate the empire. They intimidate while Sidious does his feminine duplicitous thing in the shadows like a true shady galactic politician. Snoke would bring his empire to its knees with what we see from the First Order.

What kind of an impact did the atomic bomb have ? Weapons of mass destruction and superior tech matters significantly.

FO tech is definitely superior. But the Visual Dictionary says its fleet is too small to rival the Empire, despite its firepower.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
FO tech is definitely superior. But the Visual Dictionary says its fleet is too small to rival the Empire, despite its firepower.

Given the way they are treating the Canon GE, that's a surprise actually...but then the FO hasn't had much either. It seems that the FO has superior tech in some areas, it doesn't seem to have it in others. Namely their troopers with their helmets unable to filter out toxins and other things of that nature, although these are more minor details really.

It's probably like comparing the Taliban to the Nazis: they have better tech in some areas (e.g. electronics, firearms) but lack the sheer industry (which translates to some tech gaps too).

Originally posted by The_Tempest
FO tech is definitely superior. But the Visual Dictionary says its fleet is too small to rival the Empire, despite its firepower. In size not in raw power. Starkiller base alone would rip through Sidious' Death Stars in a single barrage.

They have fleet killers at the First Order's disposal. Palpatine ruled through duplicity whereas Snoke ruled through power and brute force. I have always said which kind of character I prefer here. I am consistent.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In size not in raw power. Starkiller base alone would rip through Sidious' Death Stars in a single barrage.

They have fleet killers at the First Order's disposal. Palpatine ruled through duplicity whereas Snoke ruled through power and brute force. I have always said which kind of character I prefer here. I am consistent.

Nah, the book says the FO's navy is too small to rival the Empire's despite its firepower. Meaning that while the FO has greater firepower pound for pound, it's just too small to be on par with the Empire.

The space battles were just lolworthy anyway, with the brilliant idea of dropping bombs right above targets like WW1 and a plot-breaking light speed ramming that nobody's ever thought of before.

By and large, space battles have never been Star Wars' forte beyond the visual spectacle. But I can see why people were a bit disturbed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, the book says the FO's navy is too small to rival the Empire's despite its firepower. Meaning that while the FO has greater firepower pound for pound, it's just too small to be on par with the Empire. In size not in terms of power. You don't need invasion squads when you can take out five planets per Starkiller's barrages. Would you be interested in battlezoning the First Order vs. your empire post episode 9's DVD release. I know it's a while away but if you're confident then why not.

The First Order has greater tech and pound-for-pound greater firepower. But its fleet is too small to rival the Empire's.

It's not just smaller. It's too small to rival the Empire.

Tempest is correct, here.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The First Order has greater tech and pound-for-pound greater firepower. But its fleet is too small to rival the Empire's.

It's not just smaller. It's too small to rival the Empire. In size as I said not in terms of power as I said. I also said with a weapon that can obliterate multiple planets per usage I'll debate for the First Order. If you're so funnily convinced then agree to the challenge. Shouldn't this be a walk in the park, Gideon ? Comprise another Palpatinesque type essay focusing on the strengths of the empire with what we see on screen.

You'll already have a trilogy, Rogue One, and possibly Han Solo as additional examples of the empire's might. This won't be for years so just say yes and we can work out the specifics when the time comes.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Tempest is correct, here.

👍

The text is pretty straightforward.

Battlezone challenge ? Just say yes.

quanchi you're not interpreting the language properly, "too small to rival" with no "in size qualifier implies "size disadvantage not compensated for by later mentioned tech advantage", not "smaller in size".

Originally posted by The Ellimist
quanchi you're not interpreting the language properly, "too small to rival" with no "in size qualifier implies "size disadvantage not compensated for by later mentioned tech advantage", not "smaller in size".

👍

Going back to the thread at hand, the only people I see as being above Snoke definitively (as of right now) are Luke, Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin. Some would say Vader is more powerful than Anakin (though I'd contest the notion,) so maybe you could include peak!Vader as well (though I'm not sure, personally). Windu I'm also not really sure about.

I'm also not really seeing how Snoke's admiration for Vader implies that Snoke is inferior. Hell, Snoke wanted Kylo to become the next Vader, but ultimately still have Kylo under his thumb.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
quanchi you're not interpreting the language properly, "too small to rival" with no "in size qualifier implies "size disadvantage not compensated for by later mentioned tech advantage", not "smaller in size". If I am then why won't he accept the challenge since this will be so easy ?

I say the power of the First Order argued by me defeats the empire argued by Tempest. If it's a walk in the park let's see this out and give kmc a battlezone that will actually be debated.

Lmao the First Order has like thirty star destroyers in total, the Republic had like several thousand above Coruscant in the opening RotS scene alone, let alone the larger imperial star fleet.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmao the First Order has like thirty star destroyers in total

Is this stated in the VD?

According to some posters here yeah but i could be wrong

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ


I'm also not really seeing how Snoke's admiration for Vader implies that Snoke is inferior. Hell, Snoke wanted Kylo to become the next Vader, but ultimately still have Kylo under his thumb.


We saw how he was keeping Kylo in check though. With his personal guards as back up. Like Han Solo warns Kylo in TFA, Snoke would have betrayed him as soon as he got what he wanted from him.

Well if full-potential Kylo really were stronger than Luke I don't think those guards would've stopped him, but yeah.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Is this stated in the VD?

The TLJ VD says thirty Star Destroyers are pursuing the Resistance.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
We saw how he was keeping Kylo in check though. With his personal guards as back up. Like Han Solo warns Kylo in TFA, Snoke would have betrayed him as soon as he got what he wanted from him.

I have no doubt that Kylo would eventually surpass Snoke, especially if he is supposed to surpass Luke, as Ellimist said. But Kylo becoming the next Vader and being under Snoke's thumb =/= reaching his full potential and murdering Luke, imo.

Again, we explicitly see in the movie how Kylo's equal and Snoke compare in terms of applicable power. The idea that current!Ren is on par with or even close to Snoke is a bit unfounded, imo.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmao the First Order has like thirty star destroyers in total, the Republic had like several thousand above Coruscant in the opening RotS scene alone, let alone the larger imperial star fleet. And ? It depends on what you use your might on. As I said their forces are clearly outnumbered but this doesn't come down to the size of your navy but more or less the might of your forces.

Starkiller is going to annihilate five huge targets they select at will. The destroyers weren't what was impressive in the empire it was the Death Stars that struck fear throughout the galaxy. Their tech is also superior to the empire's so it isn't just *** for tat. Hell, we see Ewoks mount a defense against their Stormtroopers guarding the force field to the Death Star.

Their weapon of mass destruction is going to carve the empire up. In Star Wars we see how pivotal just a few characters like Anakin and Kenobi were in Rots. It has never been about the numerical advantage. The rebellion was clearly less powerful and less organized than the First Order and they came out on top.

Originally posted by quanchi112
And ? It depends on what you use your might on. As I said their forces are clearly outnumbered but this doesn't come down to the size of your navy but more or less the might of your forces.

Yeah and even if the FO has an advantage one vs. one there is no evidence that they can win like 1000 to 1 odds, so they still lose.



Well yeah, we're not talking about Starkiller base.



Lol that's a silly analogy, unless if every FO stormtrooper is a high-level Force user or Kylo Ren is going to start taking out star destroyers or something.



?? The rebellion is losing as of TLJ, but I wouldn't be surprised if when they win in episode 9 they'll do so with far fewer resources than the original Alliance in the OT, so yeah.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah and even if the FO has an advantage one vs. one there is no evidence that they can win like 1000 to 1 odds, so they still lose.



Well yeah, we're not talking about Starkiller base.



Lol that's a silly analogy, unless if every FO stormtrooper is a high-level Force user or Kylo Ren is going to start taking out star destroyers or something.



?? The rebellion is losing as of TLJ, but I wouldn't be surprised if when they win in episode 9 they'll do so with far fewer resources than the original Alliance in the OT, so yeah. A dreadnought is a fleet killer. They were so advanced in every fashion it isn't going to be a numbers game.

I am talking about the entirety of the First Order not just their navies. I have always said as much. In an all out war the First Order would hammer the empire.

Killing key characters like Tarkin, Vader, and Palpatine would clearly make a difference.

They are going to clearly inspire more. We have never seen circumstances so grim for them to be pinned on one planet and to have no way out save a Luke stalling tactic.

When it's all said and done the First Order would win a war after their trilogy is complete with the empire.