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Looking through the forum, I see this thread http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t646531.html where we get:

Yoda: 8
Mace Windu: 8
Obi Wan: 8
Anakin: 8 or 9

If I recall, we also have, from other quotes:

Yoda, Sidious: 9
Mace: 8, bordering 9
RoTS Obi Wan: 8
AoTC Obi Wan: 7
AoTC Anakin: 7
Dooku: 8
Maul: 8

Am I missing/mistaking anything?

There's two different scaling systems. The one consistently used is:

9 - Anakin, Sidious, Yoda, Mace*
8 - Mace*, Maul, Dooku, ROTS Obi-Wan
7 - Kit Fisto, AOTC Anakin, TPM Obi-Wan*
6 - TPM Obi-Wan*

* They range between these positions.

These are the ones I can think of.

The other one is just out of 9 levels instead of 10, so you get:

8 - Anakin (skimming 9 - aka perfection), Sidious, Yoda
7 - Obi-Wan

And presumably everything else falls in-line as well.

It's not clear if this exists in legends and in canon it's not clear if Gilliard's word still matters.

Pablo states they still use Gillard's archival footage for Canon.

And Lucas created this, so, if you're using the old system rankings, it's G-Canon.

Maul only being 1 tier under Palpatine is still kinda stupid though, if he really wasn't going all-out in the Mandalore fight.

The gap between tiers grow across each tier, so the gap between tier 6 and 7 is bigger than 5 to 6, the gap between 7 to 8 is bigger than 6 to 7, etc.

So, the gap between Sidious and Maul is enormous in this system.

Fair enough.

TPM Obi-Wan in Tier 7 is specifically when he's amped by dark rage though right?

That's the working theory.

I reckon Jinn is an 8, but a low 8, a little below Maul.

He's still second only to Yoda when it comes to mastery of Ataru, no doubt.

Jinn should really be better than he was... I think it's safe to assume TPM wasn't his prime.

Agreed. Take ten years off and he'd rape Maul I believe.

I mean I doubt that but he'd put up a better fight for sure.

Palpatine have official promotion as TIER 9 in Nick Gillard's system. TIER 7 have stated to be highest but Palpatine have higher. George Lucas promotes Palpatine as beyond power but Palpatine is beyond skill also it seems. This canon revelation should be shared to educate fellow members on proper ground realities of Palpatine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Pablo states they still use Gillard's archival footage for Canon.

And Lucas created this, so, if you're using the old system rankings, it's G-Canon. Can I get sources for both of these please

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Pablo states they still use Gillard's archival footage for Canon.


Do we still take Lucas's statements as Canon, then?



That's not exactly what "Legends" is though.

G-Canon and the rest of the Canon hierarchy was disestablished before the Canon/Legends split, yeah.

I can see why some people would find it difficult to adopt the levels in Legends because Gillard operates by using the levels instead of the traditional lightsaber forms. He implies in that 2015 interview that it's one or the other. So we either drop the idea of the seven forms and go with the ten levels or we don't.

They're not mutually exclusive.

That's what he implies in the 2015 interview, as I said.

There's no direct issue with ranking Anakin as a level 9 and him using Djem So. Obviously the issue is something else. It's stupid to think otherwise.

His issues were likely about how he crafted unique lightsaber forms for each of the characters, yet the seven forms reverse-engineered and standardized them.

Pablo has also come out and said the same thing - that they don't take the forms seriously and more-or-less recognize each character has their own style.

There is because Djem So is a standarised form, lol. The whole idea of having seven names is because they distilled styles to seven general forms, obviously acknowledging that each person fights differently but not enough to have an entirely new form. Djem So doesn't exist in Gillard's mind. He just doesn't factor it in. In fact, he describes his own levels as "how well they've learnt, not how well they fight".

Take for instance the RotS novel talking about Obi-Wan's style being defensive and giving ground being "his way". Gillard instead describes Obi-Wan's style as aggressive. RotS novel, again mentions Dooku's Makashi vs Anakin's Djem So, whereas with Gillard it would just be Anakin being better than Dooku. There's a difference between Gillard and Legends.

I'm not sure why you typed all that or why you're disputing. I think you missed what I was trying to state.

Anyway, as you seem to agree, Gillard's issues are with the lightsaber forms compared to his created styles - not the tiering system which can function independently from that.

The point is that since Legends takes the seven forms, then the tiers might be incompatible with it.

No, because Lucas made the tiers so that Gillard could craft individual styles.

Thus, they're independent.

Of course they're independent if Gillard didn't factor in the seven forms. They can be independent and still be incompatible.

My point was just that you can make the case that they're not compatible because you can have differing visions on some of the movie fights if you choose either the tiers or the forms.

The tiers and forms have no correlation whatsoever. So, no.

What do you mean? Obi-Wan's style is either defensive or aggressive, for example. You can't have both.

Are you braindead? Obi-Wan's style created by Nick Gillard is independent of his ranking by George Lucas.

So, you can have Obi-Wan at tier 8 while also having him be a Soresu user.

Gillard explicitly says Obi-Wan's style is aggressive. Legends has Obi-Wan being the ultimate master of defence, and that's especially reinforced in the Mustafar duel which is where Gillard cites Obi-Wan's style as being aggressive. That sounds pretty incompatible to me.

I can't tell if you are trolling.

Nick Gillard is ****ing irrelevant here. We are discussing if the lightsaber forms and the tiers contradict. They cannot possibly contradict because all the tiers are are just number rankings of how strong characters are. Further, they were created by George Lucas so that Nick Gillard could create styles for them, therefore meaning that the styles Nick Gillard created for Obi-Wan (ex. aggressive) is INDEPENDENT from the original tiers. So, for the love of God, stop comparing defensive vs offensive. What Nick Gillard did with Obi-Wan does not change what George Lucas originally did with Obi-Wan, which was ranking him as an 8. Obi-Wan can be an 8 and use Soresu at the same time. Therefore, the tiers and forms don't contradict. Yes, Nick's styles and the forms are incompatiable, but Nick's styles =/////= the ****ing forms.

I think I see the issue: George Lucas didn't come up with Obi-Wan's style. All evidence points to that Nick Gillard did. All Lucas did, from what we know, is just attribute numbers to characters.

Never mind, we've sorted this on hangouts.

fgit

I think it might be time for a change with regards to your avatar Sir Sunrazer...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I think I see the issue: George Lucas didn't come up with Obi-Wan's style. All evidence points to that Nick Gillard did. All Lucas did, from what we know, is just attribute numbers to characters. Source for Lucas creating the numbers?

"George Lucas works on a system of levels." - Nick Gillard, starwars.com

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"George Lucas works on a system of levels." - Nick Gillard, starwars.com dang so it is unavailable now?

http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

thanks so much

What's up with these numbers anyways?

They never gave an explicit answer.