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WHO IS THE #1 MOST POWERFUL CHARACTER?

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BACKGROUND AND RULES: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t649092.html.

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REMINDER: All characters are strictly in their Legends incarnation and are at peak combative (not potential) capabilities under normal conditions (no external amplifies or other temporary boosts are to be considered). All characters are at peak mental mindset while maintaining an accurate portrayal of their mindset and beliefs (morals on). Lightsaber skill and related abilities (such as physical strength, speed, etc.) is to be considered if relevant.

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ADDITIONAL NOTICE #1: "Morals on" means that characters are fighting as they would be portrayed within the Star Wars universe given the conditions listed above. The intent is to not weaken the characters of any power, but rather for light-side characters to stay light-side characters. Thus, Luke Skywalker is not going to embrace the dark-side and use Force lightning or Force drain. Instead, Luke will bring all his powers to bear given the constraints of his ideology.

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ADDITIONAL NOTICE #2: UnuThul will be considered with the amplified abilities he receives from the Killiks. Yoda is as demonstrated in Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith. Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader (pre-suit) is including all events from Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith, including events on the Invisible Hand or Operation: Knightfall - if the member is of the opinion that the conditions during such fit the standards outlined above.

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BANNED CHARACTERS: Ones of Mortis, Abeloth, Bedlam Spirits, Force Demons, Terror from Beyond, Waru, Mother Talzin, Gethzerion, Onimi, Irek Ismaren, Sarasu Taalon, World Razer, Sekot, Yuuzhan'tar, and other exotic entities.

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VOTE!

Sheev

Why I voted for Luke:

1. "Morals on" is not an issue because Luke will go all-out against any of the combatants here, he ain't fighting Soresu Taalon.

2a. Luke is confirmed by multiple sources to have the potential to far outstrip Palpatine, and even if his potential is lower than Anakin's, he's in his 60s by FotJ while Knightfall Vader is still only in his early 20's.

2b. The RotJ novelization has a scene where Luke senses that Palpatine is scared of Luke's power.

2c. Lucas thinks Luke can become what his father could've, which either means = potential or > Palpatine.

2 conclusion. Realistically when Palpatine (and others) and Lucas both think Luke can seriously surpass Palpatine, this doesn't mean "well he could but even by his 60s after years of training and experience and by which he is implied to have reached some sort of stable power level and retires shortly afterwards he still hasn't reached it".

3a. Luke defeats Palpatine in DE. It's implied that Leia helps him by "unlocking hidden resources", e.g. unlocking some of his potential and/or helping his mental state. Is a barely trained Leia > three+ decades of training?

3b. Probably not, given that Luke grows in power extremely quickly (ESB -> RotJ) and has an absurdly high ceiling.

Yoda's a better combatant than Valkorion.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Yoda's a better combatant than Valkorion.

Yeah but we know peak Palpatine > Yoda so his inclusion seems redundant.

Redundant is using Vader twice when Yoda's roughly Knightfall Vader's equal.

Not everyone believes that, though.

Wait; if 1B includes Palpatine, will the subsequent poll include Yoda?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Redundant is using Vader twice when Yoda's roughly Knightfall Vader's equal.l
The point of including two incarnations of Darth Vader is because pre-suit Vader will rank, as you noted, highly (with one member thus far even voting for him as #1), whereas post-suit Vader is a classic forum rival to characters like Revan

Yoda wasn't included because it's guaranteed no one would put him above peak Palpatine. However, that's not necessarily (and, again, demonstrably) a given with Valkorion and pre-suit Vader.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Wait; if 1B includes Palpatine, will the subsequent poll include Yoda?
You'll begin seeing Yoda's name once Palpatine is ranked.

Who voted "Other" then refused to comment below?

Perhaps?

Originally posted by Geistalt
Yoda's a better combatant than Valkorion.

mmm

Care to confirm / deny, Geistalt?

Wasn't me; I voted for Luke.

Jesus Christ, Luke is stomping.

Obviously Luke, but it does't change my opinion that he's a jobber. Meaning that I don't scale his opponents based on their performances against him. Unless, they prove to be his better and defeat him : such as abeloth.

Anybody missing some socks in their drawer?

https://i.imgur.com/BdvjGRm.png

Time to quit KMC it seems.

Ziggy is socking the forum and putting in votes for Valkorion.

That's probably the saddest thing I've ever heared.

All of these are new socks from today:

snoopiedeluxe Today 0
shouldibehappy Today 0
COMPETITIVECOD Today 0
isbartdeadyet Today 0
wotamidoing Today 0
ZIGGYSUCKSLOL Today 0
Lolimabeast Today 0
icantwaitsitdow Today 0
kanyethegoat Today 0
fookmesideways Today 0


I'll be subtracting 10 votes (out of 13) from Valkorion, putting him at 3.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but we know peak Palpatine > Yoda so his inclusion seems redundant.

One could argue that Peak Yoda > Palpatine though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ziggy is socking the forum and putting in votes for Valkorion.

I was going to point out that this would obviously happen but I didn't want to give people ideas.

I assumed, wrongly, that KMC could not ****ing suck for a day.

Moving forward, I'll be mandating write-ins.

I voted Luke.

Luke:
- The Ellimist
- The Tempest
- cs_zoltan
- Ursumeles
- Sunrazer
- Geistalt

Palpatine
- Azronger
- DarthAnt66
- An_Sock

Valkorion:
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Nephthys

These are the confirmed votes so far, with 11 in total.

Please write-in what you voted, thanks.

Valk.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ziggy is socking the forum and putting in votes for Valkorion.

And while this is something I'd do. I can assure you all, that this time, I didn't do it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Luke:
- The Ellimist
- The Tempest
- cs_zoltan
- Ursumeles
- Sunrazer
- Geistalt

Palpatine
- Azronger
- DarthAnt66
- An_Sock

Valkorion:
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Nephthys
Adding to Luke:
- Emperordmb
- The Muser

stated via Google Hangouts.

I voted for Luke, too.

How many more socks have been made since the first counting?

10 since original counting, so 20 in total. Possibly more if they had the socks on standby.

So far we have 9 confirmed votes for Luke, 3 for Palpatine, 2 for Valkorion.

I voted for Luke

I also voted Luke.

Luke.

Luke

I guess you don't have to be mentally damaged to vote for Palpatine, but nothing can make me put Luke anywhere else than spot 1.

I've got to confess I used 3 old socks to vote for Palpatine. Speaking of which, may I change my vote to him?

I honestly did vote for Luke on this account. Then I saw Valkorion gaining a fvck-ton of votes.

Voted for Luke, yeah.

What exactly is the definition of "most powerful" anyway? Is this pure potential or actualised power?

It's not like there isn't a paragraph dedicated to this question in the OP...

I voted Anakin.

Originally posted by Geistalt
I've got to confess I used 3 old socks to vote for Palpatine.
https://media.tenor.com/images/fab0bbf2eb62ed8b58ff9ae70a1ec3ee/tenor.gif

Bro, I make this at large part because of you, then you sock it, lawl.

Originally posted by samappo
What exactly is the definition of "most powerful" anyway? Is this pure potential or actualised power?
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649110&pagenumber=1

KF!Vader

Luke (13):
- The Ellimist
- The Tempest
- cs_zoltan
- Ursumeles
- Sunrazer
- Geistalt
- Emperordmb
- The Muser
- Rebel95
- Tenebrous Way
- Selenial
- jkbart
- Trocity

Palpatine (3):
- Azronger
- An_Sock
- DarthAnt66

Valkorion (2):
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Nephthys

Anakin (2):
- Beniboybling
- AncientPower

I like how this forum thinks the best method to stop socking is to counter-sock.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin (2):
- Beniboybling
- AncientPower i change my mind.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine (3):
- DarthAnt66

Valkorion (2):
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

https://media.giphy.com/media/jrvfKvr2mmcFO/giphy.gif

Originally posted by Beniboybling
i change my mind.

You're absolutely the worst, but there can be no compromise with Space Jesus.

Originally posted by AncientPower
https://media.giphy.com/media/jrvfKvr2mmcFO/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/13D5HS2GkIouze/giphy.gif

https://media.culturalist.com/media/92c3d530461fadebc60207607bc6e414_large.gif

Anakin. This hype train is never going to stop.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
i change my mind.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7516196&postcount=165

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's not too late to bask in the glory of the Chosen One.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsLeaks/comments/7kfk5g/full_yoda_scene/

@ 2:15 - 2:20

I must redeem myself... Chosen One all the way.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://media.tenor.com/images/fab0bbf2eb62ed8b58ff9ae70a1ec3ee/tenor.gif Because, deep down, I am thoroughly perturbed by Valkorion wank. Those who rank him over the dark side's most powerful expression are most misguided.

You shouldn't be perturbed.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You shouldn't be perturbed.
Skillz, you can destroy the false pretender Palpatine. Gideon has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join Anakin, and together we can rule the forums with the Chosen One by our side. Come with us. It is the only way.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7516196&postcount=165 sneer

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skillz, you can destroy the False Emperor Palpatine. Gideon has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join Anakin, and together we can rule the forums with the Chosen One by our side. Come with us. It is the only way.

The Immortal Emperor has a better chance than Anakin ever will.

No, he doesn't. He's just a glorified a$shole.

I'd like to change my vote to Knightfall Vader. I'd like to put the nail in Valkorion's uber-RotS hype coffin.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor has a better chance than Anakin ever will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-HFv6Ms1lw&t=3m09s

Sure he does. Guy eats worlds, stops time, fodderized the 2nd through 4th most powerful force users in the galaxy at the same time. All that jazz.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The Immortal Emperor has a better chance than Anakin ever will.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/38/f1/88/38f188843ba885ba8f2f0dbd423c0a79.gif

damn Ant dissed me

You fvcking voted Tano, didn't you?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I voted for Luke, too.



But don't give me ideas. https://imgfast.net/users/3311/36/97/52/smiles/1702231425.gif

So, what's the argument for Anakin beating all these guys, seriously?

Originally posted by Geistalt
I'd like to change my vote to Knightfall Vader.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9g3ogOUgC1qex0dmo1_500.gif

Got some questions before I vote:

1. KF Vader. Does he have infinite scaling? It appears that when Anakin is in the right mind and context, he somewhat decides he's going to win. For example his duel with Tyrannus, when Palpatine persuades him to stop holding back, Anakin is described as deciding to win, and Tyrannus, an old and expert swordsmen who has apprenticed under Yoda labels Anakin the greatest Djem So user he has ever seen . It appears that in his KF state, he appears to scale in order to match and defeat anything that he decides to kill. This is hinted further when Lucas confirms that KF Vader >= ROTS Sidious, which may suggest that Anakin as the chosen one and in the right mindset, with a potentially infinite potential in the force can meet any challenge.

Can someone please confirm or debunk this please?

2. Has FOTJ Luke actually scaled sufficiently to be able to contend with DE Sidious?

I know these are hotly debated questions, please just give me a couple of sentences response, and whoever convinces me to vote out of these three will get my vote. I'm still unsure tbh.

.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So, what's the argument for Anakin beating all these guys, seriously?

Deciding to stomp Dooku in which parrying Anakin took more energy than cheap-shotting Kenobi with TK. Growing stronger every day. Evidently almost doubling in power after turning to the dark side. Two-shotting Cin Drallig. Closing in on Father tier potential.

The arguments make themselves, just like Anakin willing Dooku to death.

Originally posted by samappo
Got some questions before I vote:

1. KF Vader. Does he have infinite scaling? It appears that when Anakin is in the right mind and context, he somewhat decides he's going to win. For example his duel with Tyrannus, when Palpatine persuades him to stop holding back, Anakin is described as deciding to win, and Tyrannus, an old and expert swordsmen who has apprenticed under Yoda labels Anakin the greatest Djem So user he has ever seen . It appears that in his KF state, he appears to scale in order to match and defeat anything that he decides to kill. This is hinted further when Lucas confirms that KF Vader >= ROTS Sidious, which may suggest that Anakin as the chosen one and in the right mindset, with a potentially infinite potential in the force can meet any challenge.

Can someone please confirm or debunk this please?


He is described as deciding to win against Dooku but I think it's a stretch to conclude that this is some infinite power to beat anyone by deciding to.



Yes, IMHO. See my post in the first page and my debate with Azronger on the designated thread.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin (5):
- Beniboybling
- AncientPower
- FreshestSlice
- DarthAnt66
- Geistalt

Join us, Skillz, it is the only way.

We can also pretty much gaurantee NewGuy's vote.

Knock off the socks voting for Luke too, and it's possible.

Besides the Father-tier potential he didn't fulfill, none of that sounds outside the capabilities of ROTJ Sidious, (stomping Dooku by deciding to, growing stronger every day, etc). Hell, I'm pretty sure you think Novel Vitiate can stomp Dooku by deciding to.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
So, what's the argument for Anakin beating all these guys, seriously?

He's a borderline tier 10 lightsaber duelist that is "far more dangerous than anyone in the universe" with "boundless power and abilities at his disposal."

He's the Force-made-flesh Christ figure whose will determines reality, regardless if possible or not, before undergoing a major power boost.

He's praised by Obi-Wan to be just as powerful as Yoda with his mental restrictions on - forget about it when he loses them and conquers them.

He's capable of involuntarily causing such a powerful telekinetic attack that Dooku nearly opted to abandon Sidious and rejoin the Jedi right then and there.

Anakin was already Sidious/Yoda tier by doing so though, include Vader's massive power increase after converting and the scaling gets even better.

Anakin went from an 8 to beyond a 9 during Knightfall. The gaps between tiers are supposed to get far larger the higher you go. Nothing in the novel does his power increase as much justice as that. It's probably the biggest we've ever seen bar Oneness.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He's a borderline tier 10 lightsaber duelist that is "far more dangerous than anyone in the universe" with "boundless power and abilities at his disposal."

He's the Force-made-flesh Christ figure whose will determines reality, regardless if possible or not, before undergoing a major power boost.

He's praised by Obi-Wan to be just as powerful as Yoda with his mental restrictions on - forget about it when he loses them and conquers them.

He's capable of involuntarily causing such a powerful telekinetic attack that Dooku nearly opted to abandon Sidious and rejoin the Jedi right then and there.

Beyond flowery text, and the bordering tier 10, I don't see how this puts Anakin beyond a guy who conjures tens of immortal dark side entities into existence or eats worlds while heavily weakened. Or a guy who can literally consume fleets and rip apart time and space by getting angry. Hell, there's various quotes implying that Yoda and Sidious are stronger than Anakin. Even if you don't buy them, I feel there's too much controversy there to then say Anakin is far beyond Yoda or Sidious as of RotS. The Emperors remain supreme.

I can't speak for Luke, though.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Beyond flowery text, and the bordering tier 10, I don't see how this puts Anakin beyond a guy who conjures tens of immortal dark side entities into existence or eats worlds while heavily weakened. Or a guy who can literally consume fleets and rip apart time and space by getting angry. Hell, there's various quotes implying that Yoda and Sidious are stronger than Anakin. Even if you don't buy them, I feel there's too much controversy there to then say Anakin is far beyond Yoda or Sidious as of RotS. The Emperors remain supreme.

I can't speak for Luke, though.



As for Luke, even if he has less potential than Anakin he's like in his 60s while Anakin's in his early 20's.

And I have Luke at his absolute best slightly above Valkorion and Sidious, tbh. Though I'd have to think about it.

To be fair, Anakin is in his early 20's and is one of few who is being voted for as most powerful Star Wars character in the cosmos xD

Ant, can you please confirm these statements?

You're implying Vader not performing such feats translates into an inability to do so. That's just not his style. He uses the Force internally rather than externally.

Anakin can't do any of those things.

True, he cannot. But as AP said in fairness, Anakin uses the force internally, making external feats somewhat irrelevant, if that's the jist of what you're saying ?

The question is whether Anakin could actually counter these external threats or not.

Originally posted by samappo
To be fair, Anakin is in his early 20's and is one of few who is being voted for as most powerful Star Wars character in the cosmos xD

Ant, can you please confirm these statements?
Do you want me to confirm my own statements?

Uh, sure: yeah, I stand by them.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hell, there's various quotes implying that Yoda and Sidious are stronger than Anakin. Even if you don't buy them, I feel there's too much controversy there to then say Anakin is far beyond Yoda or Sidious as of RotS. The Emperors remain supreme.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Anakin can't do any of those things.
Anakin can replicate and perhaps surpass anything Sidious, Luke, or Valkorion has down raw power-wise, IMO.

The issue comes down to mastery, in which he's obviously not at the level of Force storms or planetary draining.

@DarthAnt66 As in, if you can, provide the sources that confirm this. I wasn't aware NG labelled Anakin as approaching 10 for example.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin can replicate and perhaps surpass anything Sidious, Luke, or Valkorion has down raw power-wise, IMO.

The issue comes down to mastery, in which he's obviously not at the level of Force storms or planetary draining.

Which is why Anakin dies to any of them in a fight.

He lacks their mastery of the Force certainly, hence he isn't using planet rending techniques or such. But he doesn't use mastery of the Force, he wills the Force to do as he pleases. According to the 2008 Databank his power was unparallelled.

"He wills the force to do as he pleases."

So do Vitiate-tiers.

Not in the same fashion nor via the same means.

The vast majority of the competitions top showings aren't even combat applicable anyway, Anakin will just overpower them.

So while there are statements saying Knightfall > RotS Sidious, there are also statements labeling Sidious the most powerful sith, so the clear answer is either it's ambiguous or that one is better in raw power (likely Vader) while the other is better overall.

That ambiguity does not translate to a win over DE Sidious, and certainly not over Luke.

>implying all statements are to be treated equally

@Ellimist

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
>implying all statements are to be treated equally



The most obvious interpretation is that Knightfall Vader beats RotS Sidious in a duel thanks to raw power, but nowhere does Lucas and co. suggest he matches Sidious in telekinesis, FL, etc. So we take the other sources' word that Palpatine is more powerful overall.

Then we're comparing him to DE Sidious who is like a walking dark side nexus that can destroy moons and Luke Skywalker who by powerscaling should be above even Wankatine.

Fact: Anakin's realised power was already on Palpatine and Yoda's tier and arguably above them.

Fact: Vader's power was already massively greater to what it had been beforehand after Knightfall and prior to mental fvckery.

The only argument is how powerful that actually makes him and does it make him GOAT?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The most obvious interpretation is that Knightfall Vader beats RotS Sidious in a duel thanks to raw power, but nowhere does Lucas and co. suggest he matches Sidious in telekinesis, FL, etc. So we take the other sources' word that Palpatine is more powerful overall.

Then we're comparing him to DE Sidious who is like a walking dark side nexus that can destroy moons and Luke Skywalker who by powerscaling should be above even Wankatine.

Luke > Sidious, yet Luke never shows the same scale of power as Sidious. Thanks for making the same argument as to why Sidious and Valkorion's showings don't make them superior to KF!Vader due to his lack of them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The most obvious interpretation is that Knightfall Vader beats RotS Sidious in a duel thanks to raw power, but nowhere does Lucas and co. suggest he matches Sidious in telekinesis, FL, etc. So we take the other sources' word that Palpatine is more powerful overall.

Then we're comparing him to DE Sidious who is like a walking dark side nexus that can destroy moons and Luke Skywalker who by powerscaling should be above even Wankatine.

As of Operation: Knightfall, Anakin's powers are boundless without any mental handicap to restrict his potential. He's already beginning to exhibit Chosen One-esque heights when he decides Dooku will lose. You argue that may be hyperbole, in which I would agree if the text doesn't again feature Anakin willing an event into occurrence by landing the Invisible Hand - a feat deemed impossible by both Mace Windu and the narrator. The text even states how Anakin landed it only because his resolve to save his friends was greater than the Force's will, which I think frankly parallels with the Mortis arc and Anakin's overpowering of the Ones there. My perception of Anakin during this time is someone who's just rapidly expanding unlike anything we've ever seen. While he has ways to go before reaching his full potential, I see him as driving 80 MPH to the finish line during the later events of Revenge of the Sith.

For the record, I think many more sources support the idea Anakin > RotS Sidious than otherwise.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Luke > Sidious, yet Luke never shows the same scale of power as Sidious. Thanks for making the same argument as to why Sidious and Valkorion's showings don't make them superior to KF!Vader due to his lack of them.

Not the same at all. There are active arguments for putting Luke above DE Sidious, but none for putting Vader above DE Sidious...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As of Operation: Knightfall, Anakin's powers are boundless without any mental handicap to restrict his potential. He's already beginning to exhibit Chosen One-esque heights when he decides Dooku will lose. You argue that may be hyperbole, in which I would agree if the text doesn't again feature Anakin willing an event into occurrence by landing the Invisible Hand - a feat deemed impossible by both Mace Windu and the narrator. The text even states how Anakin landed it only because his resolve to save his friends was greater than the Force's will, which I think frankly parallels with the Mortis arc and Anakin's overpowering of the Ones there. My perception of Anakin during this time is someone who's just rapidly expanding unlike anything we've ever seen. While he has ways to go before reaching his full potential, I see him as driving 80 MPH to the finish line during the later events of Revenge of the Sith.

For the record, I think many more sources support the idea Anakin > RotS Sidious than otherwise.

Join us Samappo.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As of Operation: Knightfall, Anakin's powers are boundless without any mental handicap to restrict his potential. He's already beginning to exhibit Chosen One-esque heights when he decides Dooku will lose. You argue that may be hyperbole, in which I would agree if the text doesn't again feature Anakin willing an event into occurrence by landing the Invisible Hand - a feat deemed impossible by both Mace Windu and the narrator. The text even states how Anakin landed it only because his resolve to save his friends was greater than the Force's will, which I think frankly parallels with the Mortis arc and Anakin's overpowering of the Ones there. My perception of Anakin during this time is someone who's just rapidly expanding unlike anything we've ever seen. While he has ways to go before reaching his full potential, I see him as driving 80 MPH to the finish line during the later events of Revenge of the Sith.

For the record, I think many more sources support the idea Anakin > RotS Sidious than otherwise.

"He's growing powerful at an unprecedented rate" and "he's weaker than Luke or Wankatine" aren't mutually exclusive. BTW didn't Luke perform a similar ship-landing feat in DE? Doesn't Palpatine guide the Lusankya down? If he really were approaching Mortis Anakin, Palpatine would not have merely told Yoda that Vader WILL become more powerful than him, and various sourcebooks on Sidious being the most powerful Sith would just have to be tossed aside rather than reconciled under my system.

The only case you seem to have is if we take him "willing" his victory literally, by which case we might as well open the floodgates and start taking literally a lot of passages I know you don't want to.

Except the very nature of Anakin's potential blurs the lines between what is hyperbole and what is literal. The case is there to be made and it's not dependant on Anakin's subverting the will of the Force. I've already stated two established facts:

1.Knightfall Vader >> Anakin 2. Anakin >/~ ROTS Yoda ~ Sidious.

The actual scaling here is all that's up for contention.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
"He's growing powerful at an unprecedented rate" and "he's weaker than Luke or Wankatine" aren't mutually exclusive.

Under normal terms, sure, but when his baseline is already above Yoda, it is.



You tell me.



That feat and the Invisible Hand landing are not remotely comparable as you should know.

And that's not even saying one is better than the other (although one is) - they're just totally different.



I don't think it's reaching - especially after TFA and TLJ - that Palpatine might be suggesting Vader has to first prove himself by slaying Obi-Wan, hence why he says "soon" and the fight is going on as he says it.

"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us. "

You can take it as: you will fail - and so will Obi-Wan.



I have no issue with tossing them when almost all of them have something off about them - which I think even Azronger has admitted.



Except, unlike everyone else, Anakin can stand with the Ones of Mortis. It's not a stretch for the Forcechild to, you know, do something like that with the Force.

BTW, make responses small.

I'm not interested in debate, just discussion.

If you get too long or too deep, I'll stop responding, lol.

1. Base Anakin is not above Yoda combatively. The most that we can say is he has more raw power and might win in a pure duel. Yoda has the clear edge in mastered Force power. Ergo, it's not clear to me that Base Anakin + Knightfall amp > RotS Sidious -> RotJ -> DE.

2. I doubt that the like dozen quotes can all be tossed, and you're really reaching with the "will become more powerful interpretation which you know wasn't the intent.

3. Anakin was explicitly using the special properties of Mortis.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Except the very nature of Anakin's potential blurs the lines between what is hyperbole and what is literal.

And why doesn't this apply to Luke or Palpatine's passages? Anakin has more potential but far less experience, so I don't know how you're determining whether we can take things literally or not.



No, Yoda/RotS Sidious >\= Anakin. Anakin's only edge is as a pure duelist.

Just how close do we have RotS and DE Sidious, lol? While it's fair to put Anakin on the same level as RotS Palpatine, the Reborn Emperor is in an entirely different order of magnitude.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Base Anakin is not above Yoda combatively. The most that we can say is he has more raw power and might win in a pure duel. Yoda has the clear edge in mastered Force power. Ergo, it's not clear to me that Base Anakin + Knightfall amp > RotS Sidious -> RotJ -> DE.

Base Anakin as in what?

While I agree Yoda has an edge in Force mastery, Obi-Wan does state in LoE that Anakin's mastery is just as good as Yoda's.



Enough of them can so that Anakin's dwarf them completely and utterly, thus destroying the idea Skillz and you are making that they're close enough that "we can't really tell."

Also, I'm honestly not sure. In this discussion setting, I would admit if I didn't have a response to that, but I think my proposal makes sense.

What doesn't make sense to me would be such blatant inconsistency, which is the case with your proposed version.

It doesn't really make sense why Palpatine would tell Yoda that unless it's linking back to Obi-Wan / is of immediate concern to Yoda (because, again, Palpatine thinks he's also going to kill Yoda).



Huh? The point of the sequence was to show what Anakin is capable of in his full potential. It follows that, as Anakin approaches such, we'll see hints of crazy Force-overpowering feats along the way.

Uh the fate of Vader is important to Yoda whether Yoda lives or dies.

I think when we're confronted with apparently contradictory quotes we should try to reconcile them, especially when both sides are very strong (e.g. Lucas's intent on dueling prowess vs. like a dozen on Sidious's power), not just throw out the ones you don't like.

What "fate?" All he said is that he will grow stronger. That's not important to Yoda as it stands.

Except my point is that I think you might have, like, 2 legit quotes, where I have over half-a-dozen.

Sidious says Yoda won't defeat him because Vader will surpass them both. Clearly this means that "even if you defeat me Vader's gonna be more powerful than either of us". He said "will become", BTW.

Uh Sidious has way more than two quotes, lol, unless if you took to the Nai school of trying to nitpick away the dozen independent sources that all label Palpatine the most powerful Sith.

"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

You can take it two ways. There's not a comma, so it's not demanding that it's a singular thought.

---

Well, yeah, that's what I said. Most can be thrown away. We'll be down with two.

In the absence of a clear accolade hierarchy establishing who is superior, Palpatine or Vader, we must turn to feats. And there, as easily gleaned from the text, Anakin performs better against Dooku than Yoda did, even in his weakest, restrained base form.

Then Anakin gets permission to let loose, and he gains access to zone form, and destroys Dooku. Later on in the novel, it is described how Anakin feels more powerful than he ever has, meaning that after unlocking his furnace heart, his base form has surpassed his zone form, or more appropriately, he has made the zone his new base.

After his fall to the dark side, Anakin starts to rapidly amass more and more power in the Force. Although the extent of this amplification isn't clear, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd speedblitz, or two/three-shot someone like Dooku at this point. He has gained so many power-ups since his restrained base form, which was already outperforming Yoda for Sheev's sake. This is Knightfall Vader at his most powerful in my opinion.

However, I don't think that's enough to beat the likes of peak Palpatine or Luke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

You can take it two ways. There's not a comma, so it's not demanding that it's a singular thought.

---


Yeah but it'd be awkward to just have two random thoughts joined together like that. The fact of the matter is that your interpretation of the quote is convoluted and kind of made to fit with what you want it to be, tbh.



Yeah...no. But you're welcome to go over them once you finish your powerpoint.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah but it'd be awkward to just have two random thoughts joined together like that. The fact of the matter is that your interpretation of the quote is convoluted and kind of made to fit with what you want it to be, tbh.

As you think of it, Palpatine is saying even if Yoda defeats him, Vader remains and is supreme.

However, why would he specifically say, "can't stop me." You'd think he'd say "us" or something different.

Either way you think of it, it's worded poorly. I don't think it's fair to say my take is more so.

Any more votes?

I'm still unsure about KF Anakin. Not sure if his ability to go against the will of the force and deciding to win is enough to overpower the likes of DE Sidious.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

However, why would he specifically say, "can't stop me." You'd think he'd say "us" or something different.


Seriously?

He said "me" because Yoda was pointing a lightsaber at him, essentially he was saying "even if you kill me my apprentice, who I turned and am responsible for, will become more powerful than either of us anyway and thus fulfill my plan". And yes, he says will become.

It's pretty obvious to me.

It would have to be relatively short time frame, since Anakin after Mustafar would need to take Sidious' place and confront Yoda quite quickly in order to preserve what the emperor had constructed.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Seriously?

He said "me" because Yoda was pointing a lightsaber at him, essentially he was saying "even if you kill me my apprentice, who I turned and am responsible for, will become more powerful than either of us anyway and thus fulfill my plan". And yes, he says will become.

It's pretty obvious to me.

I understand your rational, I am just not following it.

Palpatine is not concerned with his "legacy." He states that in Book of the Sith and that is echoed by George Lucas on many occasions. His aspirations are to live forever as an immortal God Emperor with the Chosen One lineage as his guardian. Yoda would indeed "stop him" by killing him. There's no telling how Anakin would operate the new Galactic Empire, but it's clear that both know that he wouldn't do it the same way Palpatine did - and would likely be far more unsuccessful at it. Thus, if Palpatine dies, his plan dies with him - because not only is his ultimate plan (immorality) out the window, but so is his Galactic Empire in all likelihood. I don't think Palpatine would state such an obvious bluff / lie to Yoda. If he would, then I think that further calls into question the legitimacy of Palpatine's claim concerning Anakin.

Further, I think Yoda's rebuttal ("Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be" doesn't make sense in the context that Yoda is responding to Darth Vader becoming supremely powerful eventually. Palpatine's faith is blatantly not misguided in the respect that Anakin will eventually become more powerful than either of them. Yoda knows he will. It makes more sense in my interpretation, in which Yoda thinks Palpatine's faith that he will defeat Obi-Wan and fully extinguish all threads to his past is possibly misguided.

Your version has too many weird issues arising. The only issue I can find presented with mine is that it's "awkward."

Also, yes, I got the "soon" part wrong, but that calls into more questions I hadn't even considered!

If Palaptine is telling Yoda that Anakin "soon will become more powerful than either of us" and thus, even if he dies, his plan will be enacted, then by that rational Yoda should just go off and kill Anakin after he kills Palpatine. He's capable of doing that, as per you, since allegedly (and unlikely) Palpatine thinks Anakin is less powerful than either of them, and he has cause to do that if, as per you, Palpatine is passing on the torch to Anakin to complete his plan.

In other words, that statement is then, essentially, "if you kill me, Anakin's my last hope but you can kill him currently anyway" which doesn't fly.

At this point Anakin is > Yoda easily. Without a doubt in sabers, most probably in the force.

Won't save him from Wankorion or Wankatine.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Won't save him from Wankorion or Wankatine.
Even if not, he beats Luke.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


BANNED CHARACTERS: Mother Talzin, Gethzerion, Onimi, Irek Ismaren, Sarasu Taalon,

???why

Ant, you're reading waaaay too much into this. Sidious taunts Yoda by reminding him that he turned Anakin who will surpass them both and carry on the sith legacy (Yoda at this point would assume Sidious is a banite sith cause why else would he recruit someone who could surpass him?) and Yoda is like nawww Obi Wan will handle him. How did you get anything about analyzing Anakin's competence as a ruler or analysis on whether Yoda can track down Vader from that?

There's nothing awkward about it, practically everyone I've seen mentioning the scene interprets it the same way and presumably Sidious and Yoda do too.

It was decided by the committee for a variety of reasons.

This is why you ought to join Google Hangouts, so you can be apart of it.

:no2:

How do I join google hangouts lol

I didn't know there were even this many members...

There's not. Socks.

Who do you vote for, Pess?

What do you guys think of Palpatine telling Anakin "are you going to kill me? I knew you would"

Also Luke.

Originally posted by samappo
How do I join google hangouts lol
PM me your email and I'll add you to our chats.

https://hangouts.google.com/

You can access them via here or on gmail's side-bar.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
???why

Join hangouts, you ****.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
PM me your email and I'll add you to our chats.

https://hangouts.google.com/

You can access them via here or on gmail's side-bar.
To clarify:

If you don't trust me with your email, you can also send it to Skillz, DMB, Ellimist, etc.

I know what hangouts is, just didn't know how to join yours xD

Nah I'm not a paranoid retard, I'll pm you my email when I've got a chance.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
There's not. Socks.

Who do you vote for, Pess?

I'm inclined to vote Valkorion but since he's already amassed a lot votes, I'd say Luke. It's close either way.

Originally posted by Pessimystic
I'm inclined to vote Valkorion but since he's already amassed a lot votes, I'd say Luke. It's close either way.
The votes are wrong. Members created socks (fake accounts) and voted multiple times over.

The current vote is:

Luke (13):
- The Ellimist
- The Tempest
- cs_zoltan
- Ursumeles
- Sunrazer
- Emperordmb
- The Muser
- Rebel95
- Tenebrous Way
- Selenial
- jkbart
- Trocity
- King Joker

Anakin (5):
- Beniboybling
- AncientPower
- DarthAnt66
- Geistalt
- FreshestSlice

Palpatine (2):
- Azronger
- An_Sock

Valkorion (2):
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Nephthys

I have 22 votes so far.

No point even voting now, Luke takes the number 1. spot by authority of his immense lead.

Well this could seriously be anyone's game then...

- Anakin has the most potential so I guess he could be picked for that reason.
- Valkorion's best showings are greater than everyone's here (imo) but his lowest are the worst.
- Luke is certainly supposed to be the most powerful with all his accolades, and Palpatine is Palpatine.

Originally posted by samappo
No point even voting now, Luke takes the number 1. spot by authority of his immense lead.

I guess, but it gives a good gauge on how many members participate.

There's no need to do a run-off, though.

Luke will likely (99%) take number one spot with overwhelming majority.

Valkorion

I voted KF Anakin as the rules are peak combative performance, which for him is deciding to win and the ability to oppose and reverse the will of the force.

Probably Luke.

Shortly before RotS Dooku force pushed Anakin and Obi-Wan backwards with 1 hand while also knocking over a dozen people, with them actively trying to block it. Anakin is being wanked to a absurd degree based off of the novels hyperbole and Nick Gillards unofficial statements.

Knightfall Anakin has no defense against Valkorion just mind****ing him. Valkorion is far greater as a Force User and can defeat Anakin handily through any number of ways. Anakin also has no hope of employing his mythical "Level 10" duelling skills against someone who can freeze time and block lightsaber attacks with his bare hands.

Luke would also handily beat him. The dude has beaten gods and routinely faces absurdly powerful beings. The best person Anakin beat in Knightfall was frickin Cin Drallig for christssake.

How is Palpatine not winning? And now Valkorion fangirls are creating fake accounts? Bias is strong.

Lol @ TCW lowballing. You might want to look up the 'Outer Rim Sieges'.

Unless Anakin really did double in power (lol), I hardly see how it would matter.

TCW is canon even to Legends, like it or not.

All TCW performances should be taken with a grain of salt, otherwise Hondo stalemated Anakin, some pirates were too good for Dooku and 2 random death Watch soldiers stomped Kenobi.