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It seems many members of KMC remain speculative of Vader's power, perhaps it's mere hyperbole or embellishment, the words of a stunt coordinator. I'm here to prove that it's more than that:

Firstly, let's confirm that Anakin is more powerful than Yoda and Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith:





Even as of Labyrinth of Evil, Anakin is as strong as anybody who'd ever sat on the Jedi Council:



As of Revenge of the Sith Anakin has boundless powers:



After turning to the dark side, Darth Vader became much more powerful. The only character to tap into level 9, higher than Yoda:





To further grasp the massive gap between levels, Obi-Wan Kenobi only went up one level between The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith:



This tier system was personally used by George Lucas:



For those still speculative of the Canonicity of these statements. A similar level system was employed by Lucas during the production of Empire Strikes Back:



He's further confirmed to be unparallelled, the deadliest, as a Sith Lord prior to Mustafar:





Further confirmation that Vader's power was growing even still:



Darth Vader reached a level of power that was purely his own, and beyond anybody else in the galaxy. By the time he was in his prime, he was an entirely higher magnitude of power than Master Yoda, and thus Darth Sidious, was.

It is my belief that neither DE Sheev nor FOTJ Luke managed to achieve that power given that Vader was clearly tapping deeply into his incomparable potential, so much so that neither of his competition could possibly have replicated him in their individual primes.

Great thread. I totally agree.

A problem with saying that Anakin already is on par with Yoda as early as his "maybe most powerful" quotes start popping up is that as of Sidious's sorcery vision on Yoda, a weaker vision of Sidious (who Yoda was handling easily) can ragdoll Anakin, which Yoda expected him to do.

But if Anakin was so powerful, his bad performance on Mustafar can't simply be explained away by "he was conflicted, go with it". Both Yoda and Sidious, who Anakin had already supposedly surpassed, would have made short work of Obi-Wan.

There's a contradiction there. Either Anakin was not that powerful, or the difference between "levels" is not that large, and any dog can have his day regardless of how strong he is. It can't be both.

And I honestly can't imagine Yoda or Sidious being matched by anyone else(except each other) in a direct Force push vs push struggle, the way Obi-Wan matched Anakin.

Originally posted by Unbowed
But if Anakin was so powerful, his bad performance on Mustafar can't simply be explained away by "he was conflicted, go with it". Both Yoda and Sidious, who Anakin had already supposedly surpassed, would have made short work of Obi-Wan.

There's a contradiction there. Either Anakin was not that powerful, or the difference between "levels" is not that large, and any dog can have his day regardless of how strong he is. It can't be both.

And I honestly can't imagine Yoda or Sidious being matched by anyone else(except each other) in a direct Force push vs push struggle, the way Obi-Wan matched Anakin.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A problem with saying that Anakin already is on par with Yoda as early as his "maybe most powerful" quotes start popping up is that as of Sidious's sorcery vision on Yoda, a weaker vision of Sidious (who Yoda was handling easily) can ragdoll Anakin, which Yoda expected him to do.
That happened before the Outer Rim Sieges. The Anakin quotes begin to pop up in LoE, as they end.

More importantly, that fight was strictly Canon-only, so Force barriers don't work the same way.

I'll copy what I said in the other thread:

Originally posted by Azronger
In the absence of a clear accolade hierarchy establishing who is superior, Palpatine or Vader, we must turn to feats. And there, as easily gleaned from the text, Anakin performs better against Dooku than Yoda did, even in his weakest, restrained base form.

Then Anakin gets permission to let loose, and he gains access to zone form, and destroys Dooku. Later on in the novel, it is described how Anakin feels more powerful than he ever has, meaning that after unlocking his furnace heart, his base form has surpassed his zone form, or more appropriately, he has made the zone his new base.

After his fall to the dark side, Anakin starts to rapidly amass more and more power in the Force. Although the extent of this amplification isn't clear, I don't think it's a stretch to say he'd speedblitz, or two/three-shot someone like Dooku at this point. He has gained so many power-ups since his restrained base form, which was already outperforming Yoda for Sheev's sake. This is Knightfall Vader at his most powerful in my opinion.

However, I don't think that's enough to beat the likes of peak Palpatine or Luke.

By feats, KF Vader is the MVP of his time, in terms of pure power at least. Mastery is another thing, which is why I still think he wouldn't beat RotS Palpatine, much less DE lol

@Ant ah ok, didn't know if you were putting TCW into Legends.

Well, whether I do or not, the Lost Missions were released after the Disney merger, I believe.

So they are definitely Canon-only.

Do we count the unfinished episodes in TCW? When Grievous stomps Kenobi?

Originally posted by Pessimystic
Do we count the unfinished episodes in TCW? When Grievous stomps Kenobi?
They're canon.

lol

So we're expected to believe that Kenobi had a big power boost from Season 6/7 of TCW to ROTS?

Grievous got brand-new upgrades since the last time they fought. That Grievous was the same incarnation as ROTS.

Obi-Wan adapted to the new style fairly afterwards though, based on his performance in ROTS.

If midi-chlorians are really the proof of your Force-strength, what can we say then about Nihilus or Exar Kun?

Nihilus didn't have any midi-chlorians into his robes and armor; yet he was op as f**k.

As about Anakin. It's safe to assume that he was stronger in his Sith, not Jedi personna.

Nihilus is an exception because he's a wound in the force.

This is not from Gillard's point of view; is from Lucas'. And first, you need to understand why Lucas considers Anakin the most powerful Jedi? Maybe due to his Chosen One status and his destiny to destroy the Sith?




This quote seems to compress only from Darth Bane's era until Anakin's era.




This quote doesn't tell that he is the strongest Jedi. In fact it flatly tells us that his Force strength is equal to the other Jedi from in the Jedi Council.





What are these boundless abilties?

This line is too cryptic. From the context, I get that, he was seduced by the dark side and about the boundless Sith abilities he would come to learn; eventually hastening his fall.



George Lucas canon, remember.

What are with these numbers, anyways? It seems to me that this was Gillard's classification of these, and only these characters alone. And he does not refer to Force strength alone, but to overall characteristics of these characters(their Force strength, their training, etc)

And Gillard even stated that Anakin is not an eight or a nine, but Windu is an eight with Yoda. So Gillard clearly didn't talk about Force strength alone.



Yes, if you take into account their overall Jedi training. No wonder Anakin lost to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.








It takes into context only the movies(with no acknowledge of the EU content)

But, Obi-Wan did improve a lot since Episode 1 and Episode 2 to Episode 3. This is out of the question. He became better at swordsplay.



So, there is nothing about Force strength, but rather about self-discipline, Force Mastery, and swordsplay.




There are so many 'maybes' and a 'probably'.

This is too inconsistent. Who wrote this? It seems to me the person who wrote this wasn't sure what happened there in the making of the movie.



Oh, really?
I am looking at you Nihilus, Sidious, Vitiate/Valkorion. . .

This does not even acknowledge the existence of the EU.



He was the deadliest, because he was the only Sith Lord who had the most screening in the movies.



You describe this statement through Anakin's own narcissistic perception. The reason, he began to feel this, is because he was fallen to the dark side already; and he thought that the dark side will be making him stronger to save Padme from "certain death".

Originally posted by samappo
Nihilus is an exception because he's a wound in the force.

What about Valkorion/Vitiate, then?
What about Exar Kun?

Are really the midi-chlorians the proof that your Force strength is based on them? I mean Anakin had the highest count in the movies and yet he couldn't Force-push Obi-Wan and crack his neck; or when he needed Mortis' Force nexus to subdue both of the Force embodiments.

It's either overall lore inconsistency, or midi-chlorians really do not show your Force strength, and this is what Jedi's perception is. Or maybe the other op EU characters have a greater midi-chloriant count?

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd First of all, you destroy your own argument by reminding us that Lucas' intent was for him to be as powerful in the Force as Yoda, and then Sidious.

The only redeeming part of your argument is:
You describe this statement through Anakin's own narcissistic perception. The reason, he began to feel this, is because he was fallen to the dark side already; and he thought that the dark side will be making him stronger to save Padme from "certain death".

Well, Lucas' and Luceno's.

Midichlorians are microscopic organisms in your bloodstream that are gateways between yourself and the Force. The more midichlorians you have, the more Force energy is going to be channeling through you. Anakin has more midichlorians than any character in Star Wars, thereby making him the most potentially powerful character in Star Wars.

"The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two."

Ben Kenobi completely outclasses Vader in force powers according to this one. Nah I think Anakin is on the same level as Sidious and Yoda, but ultimately weaker. The 8 tier system seems to have been the prototype.

Also Palpatine called KF Vader the strongest Sith ever barring himself

Labyrinth of Evil Anakin is as strong in the Force as Yoda (though not as skilled). Neat.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Also Palpatine called KF Vader the strongest Sith ever barring himself When?

The eight tier system was stated in 2011.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The eight tier system was stated in 2011.

But the 9 tier system was stated in the Making of ROTS content. It's clearly the one they used to shape the film. If anything it sounds like Gillard misspoke.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Also Palpatine called KF Vader the strongest Sith ever barring himself

he never barred himself, actually.

Here's a new quote from 2017 Sideshow Exclusive that further backs the idea of Anakin's growth in the Outer Rim Sieges:


"Amphitheaters of battle on a hundred different worlds have been the classes of Anakin's schooling and tested his character like no training the ancient Jedi could have devised."

Fantastic stuff.

Huh, all you need to do is kill droids in the Outer Rim and you can increase your ability tenfold.

Originally posted by Geistalt
Well, Lucas' and Luceno's.

Where is Luceno's?




I never said that. Where did I say it? I said that Lucas intended Anakin to be the most powerful Jedi due to his Chosen status and his destiny to end the Sith, nothing about his own Force strength. This can be proved when he has that Force-push contest with Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Neither managed to Force-push the other. I think people take out of context Lucas' 'statement' about Anakin, or Lucas' statement doesn't apply in the Expanded Universe.




1. I know what midi-chlorians are.
2. You have no proof that more-midi-chlorians=more Force power. Plagueis even discovered animals(IIRC) stronger in the Force with a lower midi-chlorian count.
If that's true with the midi-chlorians; then Nihilus wouldn't be able to use the Force. In fact if this were true; then if you absorbed a high quantity of Force energy; and you have a bad midi-chlorian count; I think you'd blow yourself off.
3. Anakin has the highest count in the movies; not in the EU. And that's only the perception of the Jedi. If midi-chlorians=Force strength. Then Exar Kun or TOR Force-users who had greater feats than him; it means their count is higher.

Uh. The novel makes it quite clear that Anakin was extremely unstable and not fighting at his best on Mustafar. That's why they were equal.

Originally posted by samappo
Uh. The novel makes it quite clear that Anakin was extremely unstable and not fighting at his best on Mustafar. That's why they were equal.

I think that if I had a huge fist; it didn't matter that I was angry or calm. I'd still manage to kick someone's ass.

I don't care what you think is canon, I care about what's actually canon, and the Canon makes it quite clear that Anakin wasn't fighting at his best, period.

"Wasn't fighting at his best(..)" does not destroy my statement. You either accept that higher midi-chlorian count doesn't mean more Force strength or TOR famous Jedi/Sith had a greater midi-chlorian count than Anakin.

More midi-chlorians does mean more force strength, but training and discipline plus a deeper understanding of the force will allow someone with a lower mid-chlorians count to use the force more effectively. It's like having gear. If you have the best gear, you're better prepared to do something. But if you don't know what you're doing, then no matter what gear you have, you won't be able to perform well. Someone who's practiced enough and mastered an art can do incredible things without good gear. But if they HAD that gear, it would help. Anakin was born with the highest midi-chlorians count (The best gear), AND was the Chosen One (He could even replace the Father himself), but without discipline, control, and understanding, he wasn't capable of feats like the ones performed by better force users.

And yet, we have quotes from the ANH and ROTJ novels, among other sources, confirming that he was more powerful by ANH than he ever was before.

The conception of the meassure of midi-chlorians as proof of your Force-strength was only something that the PT-OT Jedi followed. If you accept the midi-chlorian concept, then you have to embrace the idea that users with higher midi-chlorian count than Anakin existed before he was born.

How does that even work?

Originally posted by Zentrex
More midi-chlorians does mean more force strength, but training and discipline plus a deeper understanding of the force will allow someone with a lower mid-chlorians count to use the force more effectively. It's like having gear. If you have the best gear, you're better prepared to do something. But if you don't know what you're doing, then no matter what gear you have, you won't be able to perform well. Someone who's practiced enough and mastered an art can do incredible things without good gear. But if they HAD that gear, it would help. Anakin was born with the highest midi-chlorians count (The best gear), AND was the Chosen One (He could even replace the Father himself), but without discipline, control, and understanding, he wasn't capable of feats like the ones performed by better force users.

More wisdom, discipline, and mastery won't increase the size of your hammer(Force-strength).

And given that the Father and his children are able to foresee the future. It doesn't take much to understand that it was a fabrication of the Father because it had to happen. He already saw the future and knew that Anakin is the Chosen One because he destroys the Sith. Also, Anakin could only keep the children using the aid of the Mortis' nexus.