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Where do you people find the time for all of this?

Originally posted by Kurk
Where do you people find the time for all of this?

You ruined my posting spree. Die.

That. . . is just about all I expected. Nothing I didn't already know and that can't be debunked pretty solidly. I'll get started soon.

Originally posted by Kurk
Where do you people find the time for all of this?

Originally posted by AncientPower
That. . . is just about all I expected. Nothing I didn't already know and that can't be debunked pretty solidly. I'll get started soon.

Know that I won't be wasting time on your incoherent ramblings even should you make a response, AP. Nobody cares about you at this point, and everyone is tired of your dishonesty, lies and general stupidity.

Excellent thread, all hail Hego.

Oy vey, anyone who doesn't agree with the Sheevite's are dishonest and stupid.

Excellent read, but the insectoid : human math is strange.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Excellent thread, all hail Hego.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Excellent read, but the insectoid : human math is strange.

Thanks, but how so?

Originally posted by Azronger
Thanks, but how so? You assume that the rate of sentient insectoids is comparable to the insect : human rate on earth.

In regards solely to power and destructive capability, Vitiate/Valk are above Plagueis, but in regards to combat, Plagueis is better just because he's way more well rounded. Not saying I think he could best Vitiate, but in a general sense, Plagueis is a better combatant. I find that to be a reasonable middle ground.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You assume that the rate of sentient insectoids is comparable to the insect : human rate on earth.

That's only because we don't have more precise estimates. It's just a way to provide a rough picture of the amount of organisms Plagueis would have touched with his mind.

Originally posted by darthbane77
In regards solely to power and destructive capability, Vitiate/Valk are above Plagueis, but in regards to combat, Plagueis is better just because he's way more well rounded. Not saying I think he could best Vitiate, but in a general sense, Plagueis is a better combatant. I find that to be a reasonable middle ground.

How is Valkorion more powerful and possessing of more destructive capacity again?

An excellent essay. Well done.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
An excellent essay. Well done.



Very well-sourced and interesting to read.

Gracias.

I used to argue for Sidious and Plagueis once upon a time. Extensively.

I can't remember the last time I did that. Azronger is taking the later Banite Sith hype to new heights. Great job( for whatever I saw, I didn't read it fully).

Originally posted by Azronger
Gracias.

Nice.

I might write a separate shorter essay on his Saber capabilities, since I feel they are vastly underrated.

How is this taking it to new heights? It was just a lot of info everyone already knew compiled into one thread.

Originally posted by Pessimystic
How is this taking it to new heights? It was just a lot of info everyone already knew compiled into one thread.
Yeah, this is just one big Plagueis wankfest. Nothing new here.

Look at all these people who never say anything interesting ever saying this great thread isn't interesting. Nothing like the smell of projection in the morning!

Originally posted by ILS
Look at all these people who never say anything interesting ever saying this great thread isn't interesting. Nothing like the smell of projection in the morning!

Lol yeah there hasn't been a single actual rebuttal to anything Azronger said.

Originally posted by Azronger
How is Valkorion more powerful and possessing of more destructive capacity again? As you mentioned in the thread, his draining of Ziost, which he did while in a severely weakened state, and seemed to do with little to no difficulty. That's a planet level feat performed at significantly below full power, on top of that, he was one-shotting small ships through the Outlander during Arcann's invasion of Asylum.

Plagueis doesn't really have anything suggesting he has the ability to perform planet level feats all on his lonesome, and that's supported by the fact that he has never come close to doing so.

Originally posted by darthbane77
As you mentioned in the thread, his draining of Ziost, which he did while in a severely weakened state, and seemed to do with little to no difficulty. That's a planet level feat performed at significantly below full power, on top of that, he was one-shotting small ships through the Outlander during Arcann's invasion of Asylum.

Plagueis doesn't really have anything suggesting he has the ability to perform planet level feats all on his lonesome, and that's supported by the fact that he has never come close to doing so.

As Azronger pointed out, Plagueis can't possibly do Ziost without alerting the Jedi Order to his presence. That's why his feats are so subtle, but when you view them carefully they're far more profound than Valkorion's IMHO.

Case in point: Vitiate with a thousand years of work makes the Dark Temple and maybe DK into a stronger nexus, while Plagueis and Sidious with a month of meditation tip the entire f*cking galaxy to the dark side and make the Force create Anakin in retaliation.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
As Azronger pointed out, Plagueis can't possibly do Ziost without alerting the Jedi Order to his presence. That's why his feats are so subtle, but when you view them carefully they're far more profound than Valkorion's IMHO.

Case in point: Vitiate with a thousand years of work makes the Dark Temple and maybe DK into a stronger nexus, while Plagueis and Sidious with a month of meditation tip the entire f*cking galaxy to the dark side and make the Force create Anakin in retaliation. I would disagree, subtle or not, I don't see any of Plagueis' feats as being as impressive as Ziost.

As for Sidious and Plagueis' ritual, it's just that a ritual. It took almost constant effort and power poured into it over the course of months, from both Plagueis AND Sidious, it's not even remotely attributable to any level of power either of them might have on their own at any given time. It's a feat performed with Plagueis' and Sidious' full combined power, multiplied exponentially, based the very nature of the ritual, how it was performed, etc, I'm hesitant to even consider it a feat.

That's a rule that I attribute to most rituals, like Vitiate's draining of Nathema, I don't really consider that to be ultra impressive either, because he had a lot of assistance in doing it.

If you're gonna downplay Sidious and Plagueis's feat for being a ritual I have no idea how you give Vitiate credit for anything.

At least Sidious and Plagueis just meditated; Vitiate did rituals in a far more literal and overt sense, with lots more prep, often with external Force users, and on nexuses.

I don't consider a lot of Vitiate's rituals when I place him, same for any Sith. I don't believe his drain on Ziost was a ritual in the first place, and even if it was, he still dominated the minds of (iirc) everyone on the planet while in a severely weakened state, before performing the drain. If I did, I (or anyone in the ToR Brigade) could argue that because Vitiate was seemingly going to succeed in his mission to drain the galaxy of life, that Vitiate even at that point, was a galaxy level threat. Which, obviously, isn't true.

Sidious' and Plagueis' ritual was more meditation than anything, I don't disagree with that, I only disagree with the notion that it's somehow immensely impressive, or that the ritual can somehow be attributed in any capacity to one Sith or the other as a feat.

I read the first part of the blog featuring the Force unbalancing. It's not fair to put Plagueis above Valkorion because of it since Valkorion never actively attempted to do the feat, nor did he need to (especially in the Valkorion incarnation that pulls from both sides of the Force). Turning the Force to the dark-side doesn't help even Vitiate's interests, whose aspirations of devouring the galaxy depends on galaxy-wide warfare to fuel the deaths and therefore a powerful Jedi Order.

The feat is enormously impressive, but I feel you downplay Sidious' involvement. When in deep meditation for extensive periods of time, Sidious would be calling deep in his reserves, likely meaning that he would be operating at an equal or vastly superior rate than Darth Plagueis (since he has greater potential).

Still, I liked the effort and perhaps the other subtopics will persuade me more.

@bane I don't see evidence that Sidious and Plagueis did a "ritual" in the sense that they employed some external or configurative trickery.

--------

As ILS and I had discussed on hangouts, it should be emphasized that:

1. Plagueis while drunk and blindsided can tank the full-power lightning of Sidious, who had already been labeled in other sources the most powerful sith of all time. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed; the actual lightning wasn't physically harming him.

2. Plagueis considered this regeneration feat much harder than severing midichlorians.

Ergo, if he can regenerate vs. Palpatine's lightning and considers severing midichlorians easier, there's a good chance he can just oneshot Valkorion via midichlorian sever (and certainly weaklings like Arcann or Vaylin).

Valkorion isn't dependent upon midichlorians, so everything else aside, I don't think that's possible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion isn't dependent upon midichlorians, so everything else aside, I don't think that's possible.

Well he can kill Valkorion's body.

I'm not sure how Valkorion powers his body, but since it's not dependent upon midichlorians, I'm not sure that would work.

Plagueis is supreme. Valkorion is simply inferior.

We've been wrong this whole time; Valkorion wasn't an attempt to mimic or even surpass Sidious. He was a demonstration of why the ancient Sith followed the wrong path. Instead of attempting to tap into the very source code of the Force, like Neo from the matrix, they attempted to crudely bend it to their will, using technology, alchemy, rituals, nexuses, spirits and minions to further their goals. Valkorion, as mentioned in that codex, took this practice "to it's extreme" by performing the Ziost ritual, but when put in the correct perspective (which is what Az did here), all of his feats are in a lesser league to what Plagueis achieved. Plagueis is a far bigger deal, with more advanced techniques and more impressive accomplishments.

That's the point of the Banite Sith; they evolved. Instead of trying to master new Force abilities, to discover new powers and techniques or adapt ancients ones from dusty scrolls and holocrons, they took it a step further: they tapped into the very essence of the Living Force, bent it's will, and began to alter reality itself, very much like Neo in the matrix when he finally starts to see the world as it is; just code.

The Banite Sith had enough vision to understand that they can only ascend by breaking the rules. Plagueis perfected this, and then Sidious took the reigns from him. Really, we should be looking at debating Valkorion vs anyone between Bane and Tenebrous, but certainly no higher than that.

Originally posted by ILS
Plagueis is supreme. Valkorion is simply inferior.

We've been wrong this whole time; Valkorion wasn't an attempt to mimic or even surpass Sidious. He was a demonstration of why the ancient Sith followed the wrong path. Instead of attempting to tap into the very source code of the Force, like Neo from the matrix, they attempted to crudely bend it to their will, using technology, alchemy, rituals, nexuses, spirits and minions to further their goals. Valkorion, as mentioned in that codex, took this practice "to it's extreme" by performing the Ziost ritual, but when put in the correct perspective (which is what Az did here), all of his feats are in a lesser league to what Plagueis achieved. Plagueis is a far bigger deal, with more advanced techniques and more impressive accomplishments.

That's the point of the Banite Sith; they evolved. Instead of trying to master new Force abilities, to discover new powers and techniques or adapt ancients ones from dusty scrolls and holocrons, they took it a step further: they tapped into the very essence of the Living Force, bent it's will, and began to alter reality itself, very much like Neo in the matrix when he finally starts to see the world as it is; just code.

The Banite Sith had enough vision to understand that they can only ascend by breaking the rules. Plagueis perfected this, and then Sidious took the reigns from him. Really, we should be looking at debating Valkorion vs anyone between Bane and Tenebrous, but certainly no higher than that.



I'm contemplating Tenebrous vs. Valkorion now.

It's honestly kind of funny when you look at the misconceptions people have been peddling this whole time.

"The difference between the ancient Sith and the modern Sith is that the ancients were much more focused on the Force, whereas the modern Sith were more political and focused more on sabers"

Where, in reality, the modern Sith had tapped into a level of power so extreme, so unprecedented that the kind of childish displays of overt power from the likes of Valkorion and Exar Kun simply fall short of what one can truly be capable of. They were still playing by the rules, looking for new ways to jack up their power, whereas Plagueis and Sidious were quite literally altering reality to their whims. Add to that a level of speed and skill that simply makes Valkorion and the other ancients look like senior citizens... not looking bright for them should they come to blows.Originally posted by The Ellimist


I'm contemplating Tenebrous vs. Valkorion now. Tempted to throw Valk a bone, seeing as Tenebrous doesn't seem to be able to actually attack his midichlorians directly, like Plagueis, but in terms of a raw power exchange, it would be great to see.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion isn't dependent upon midichlorians, so everything else aside, I don't think that's possible. Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm not sure how Valkorion powers his body, but since it's not dependent upon midichlorians, I'm not sure that would work. Well, Valkorion's "body" is a Zaakul soldier who his spirit possessed essentially, right? So Valkorion is possessing and channelling his power through the midi-chlorians of this new host body. Plagueis should have no issues doing a little de-programming and causing a mass die-off of midi-chlorians, rendering Valkorion a spirit. From there it just depends on if Plagueis can kill his spirit or if being reduced to a spirit is itself sufficient victory conditions.

I don't think Valkorion is channeling his power through the midichlorians though, because that implies his power would be limited to the midichlorians of the original host.

If that's the case then his spirit is just tethered to a body, the attacks themselves coming from his disembodied spirit. Similar to Nihilus and his armour perhaps?

Well, I think the actual answer is that the developers likely pretended midichlorians don't exist.

For in-universe, that's possible and frankly the only explanation I can think of.

Makes sense. We only ever saw what I described before with Kun and Kyp, and that was only possible/warranted because of Kyp's immense power. I imagine Valk's body is mostly for aesthetics and symbolism.

So why did he have to shape the shitlander's body before being able to possess them?

why is cs zoltan still posting, this meathead is almost as stupid as AP

Originally posted by ILS
Plagueis is supreme. Valkorion is simply inferior.

We've been wrong this whole time; Valkorion wasn't an attempt to mimic or even surpass Sidious. He was a demonstration of why the ancient Sith followed the wrong path. Instead of attempting to tap into the very source code of the Force, like Neo from the matrix, they attempted to crudely bend it to their will, using technology, alchemy, rituals, nexuses, spirits and minions to further their goals. Valkorion, as mentioned in that codex, took this practice "to it's extreme" by performing the Ziost ritual, but when put in the correct perspective (which is what Az did here), all of his feats are in a lesser league to what Plagueis achieved. Plagueis is a far bigger deal, with more advanced techniques and more impressive accomplishments.

That's the point of the Banite Sith; they evolved. Instead of trying to master new Force abilities, to discover new powers and techniques or adapt ancients ones from dusty scrolls and holocrons, they took it a step further: they tapped into the very essence of the Living Force, bent it's will, and began to alter reality itself, very much like Neo in the matrix when he finally starts to see the world as it is; just code.

The Banite Sith had enough vision to understand that they can only ascend by breaking the rules. Plagueis perfected this, and then Sidious took the reigns from him. Really, we should be looking at debating Valkorion vs anyone between Bane and Tenebrous, but certainly no higher than that.
There's no evidence that this applies to any of the Banites beside Plagueis. The rest of the Banites were just as traditional as any Sith who came before them. The early ones like Bane and Zannah are just what you described, building their order on the scraps of the Sith that came before them.

Tenebrous didn't seem to rely on the Force all that much, he simply used his enormous intelligence and computational ability to anticipate the coming of the Chosen One and tried to use bio-engineering to bide his time and snatch his body.

And Palpatine was just a massive idiot. Unlike most Sith Masters, Plagueis actually trusted and valued him, and would have freely shared his secrets with him. Palpatine had it made in the shade. If he would have just continued to handle the "profane" part of the Grand Plan while Plagueis continued his research, they would have toppled the republic, extended their lives and ruled forever. But his fear and ego got in the way.

And what did he do after he killed Plagueis? Same old same old. Got back to technology, rituals, Force Storms etc. Meet the new Sith, same as the old Sith.

Plagueis was the only one who ever got close to the Sith goal. Based on the revelation that in the years following the assassination attempt on him he actually increased his own midichlorian count, and the nature of his research in The Book of Sith, it's likely that given more time he would have eventually broken free of any limit and become some sort of god. Palpatine sensed this, and nipped it in the bud.

Other than Plagueis, the only other innovator is Krayt. Only Krayt just stumbled into it by accident. He died and in his own words experienced "rapture" and "the passageway to something greater". When he came back he was free of his previous limitations, and unique powers like the Essence Transfer, the ability to see shatterpointts, and the Dark Transfer came to him naturally. The same powers that previous generations of Sith lusted over all their lives.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The feat is enormously impressive, but I feel you downplay Sidious' involvement. When in deep meditation for extensive periods of time, Sidious would be calling deep in his reserves, likely meaning that he would be operating at an equal or vastly superior rate than Darth Plagueis (since he has greater potential).

You just pulled this out of your ass.

The zero evidence that Sidious was anything other than Plagueis' junior partner in the ritual. Zilch.

Originally posted by Unbowed
There's no evidence that this applies to any of the Banites beside Plagueis. The rest of the Banites were just as traditional as any Sith who came before them. The early ones like Bane and Zannah are just what you described, building their order on the scraps of the Sith that came before them.

Tenebrous didn't seem to rely on the Force all that much, he simply used his enormous intelligence and computational ability to anticipate the coming of the Chosen One and tried to use bio-engineering to bide his time and snatch his body.

And Palpatine was just a massive idiot. Unlike most Sith Masters, Plagueis actually trusted and valued him, and would have freely shared his secrets with him. Palpatine had it made in the shade. If he would have just continued to handle the "profane" part of the Grand Plan while Plagueis continued his research, they would have toppled the republic, extended their lives and ruled forever. But his fear and ego got in the way.

And what did he do after he killed Plagueis? Same old same old. Got back to technology, rituals, Force Storms etc. Meet the new Sith, same as the old Sith.

Plagueis was the only one who ever got close to the Sith goal. Based on the revelation that in the years following the assassination attempt on him he actually increased his own midichlorian count, and the nature of his research in The Book of Sith, it's likely that given more time he would have eventually broken free of any limit and become some sort of god. Palpatine sensed this, and nipped it in the bud.

Other than Plagueis, the only other innovator is Krayt. Only Krayt just stumbled into it by accident. He died and in his own words experienced "rapture" and "the passageway to something greater". When he came back he was free of his previous limitations, and unique powers like the Essence Transfer, the ability to see shatterpointts, and the Dark Transfer came to him naturally. The same powers that previous generations of Sith lusted over all their lives.

Granted, Sidious may have pursued a different line of research than Plagueis (though he claims to have some mastery over midichlorian manipulation as well) but he did things on a far more massive scale than any of the ancient sith could dream of.

Originally posted by Unbowed
You just pulled this out of your ass.

The zero evidence that Sidious was anything other than Plagueis' junior partner in the ritual. Zilch.
**** off.

There's zero commentary whatsoever on the feat. It's fully described in a few sentences. It's open to interpretation.

That being said, nothing I said was unreasonable.

- Force-users draw deep within themselves in meditation. - Check.
- Palpatine has greater Force potential than Darth Plagueis. - Check.
- Palpatine likely contributed equally or more than Darth Plagueis. - Check

Everything makes sense.

Originally posted by Unbowed
The same powers that previous generations of Sith lusted over all their lives.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Essence Transfer, the ability to see shatterpointts, and the Dark Transfer.

LMFAO.

As I recall plenty of Sith knew essence transfer and didn't Krayt learn about Dark Transfer from Xoxaan in the first place?

I mean it's kind of silly to downplay the Force unbalancing feat because they were meditating while Vitiate does 99% of all of his feats with prep on nexuses via rituals and slaves.

Depends on which feats from Valkorion you find impressive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall plenty of Sith knew essence transfer and didn't Krayt learn about Dark Transfer from Xoxaan in the first place? Muur began to heal Krayt using Dark Transfer, which is what made it *click* for Krayt, and is how he learned it.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I read the first part of the blog featuring the Force unbalancing. It's not fair to put Plagueis above Valkorion because of it since Valkorion never actively attempted to do the feat, nor did he need to (especially in the Valkorion incarnation that pulls from both sides of the Force). Turning the Force to the dark-side doesn't help even Vitiate's interests, whose aspirations of devouring the galaxy depends on galaxy-wide warfare to fuel the deaths and therefore a powerful Jedi Order.

The feat is enormously impressive, but I feel you downplay Sidious' involvement. When in deep meditation for extensive periods of time, Sidious would be calling deep in his reserves, likely meaning that he would be operating at an equal or vastly superior rate than Darth Plagueis (since he has greater potential).

Still, I liked the effort and perhaps the other subtopics will persuade me more.

1: I agree on the first paragraph.

2: It's really not, because no matter what, this was a feat performed over a long period of time, months. Which means both Sidious and Plagueis poured their entirety into it more than once, it would have required constant focus for that period of time, or at least near constant focus. Plagueis would be calling into his own reserves as deeply as Sidious, and the claim that Sidious could have been doing so at a vastly superior rate really isn't supported, Given that Sidious has no real feats putting him "vastly" above Plagueis, even in his DE iteration. Still, even if we assume you're right, like I said before, the feat would have required their combined power multiplied by X amount of times. It's in no way indicative of any personal levels of power, and thus can't (and shouldn't) be used as an indicator of how powerful either Sith was at the time.

The circumstances and context of the ritual/meditation/whatever it is you wanna call it, exclude it from being considered a real feat. I'm not saying it's not impressive at all, I highly doubt very many groupings (let alone duos) of Sith would ever be capable of replicating the feat, but as VS attributable feats go, it's not impressive, imho.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@bane I don't see evidence that Sidious and Plagueis did a "ritual" in the sense that they employed some external or configurative trickery.

--------

As ILS and I had discussed on hangouts, it should be emphasized that:

1. Plagueis while drunk and blindsided can tank the full-power lightning of Sidious, who had already been labeled in other sources the most powerful sith of all time. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed; the actual lightning wasn't physically harming him.

2. Plagueis considered this regeneration feat much harder than severing midichlorians.

Ergo, if he can regenerate vs. Palpatine's lightning and considers severing midichlorians easier, there's a good chance he can just oneshot Valkorion via midichlorian sever (and certainly weaklings like Arcann or Vaylin).

I'm not saying they performed a classical arcane ritual, but meditating and enforcing their will on the Force is far more ritualistic than it is just a showing of power or strength of will. It's far closer to being ritualistic than it is to be a traditional Force showing.

The fact that Plagueis was resisting Sidious' lightning and healing at a rate faster than Sidious was damaging him disproves the idea that Sidious was more powerful, imo. Of course, I take feats>accolades, not everyone does that.

I don't see why it wouldn't be more difficult. Midichlorian Manipulation doesn't seem like the type of the ability that requires a great level of power to use, just a great level of mastery/control/precision. So of course healing himself at a faster rate than Sidious was harming him would be the more difficult feat.

Originally posted by darthbane77
1: I agree on the first paragraph.

2: It's really not, because no matter what, this was a feat performed over a long period of time, months. Which means both Sidious and Plagueis poured their entirety into it more than once, it would have required constant focus for that period of time, or at least near constant focus. Plagueis would be calling into his own reserves as deeply as Sidious, and the claim that Sidious could have been doing so at a vastly superior rate really isn't supported, Given that Sidious has no real feats putting him "vastly" above Plagueis, even in his DE iteration. Still, even if we assume you're right, like I said before, the feat would have required their combined power multiplied by X amount of times. It's in no way indicative of any personal levels of power, and thus can't (and shouldn't) be used as an indicator of how powerful either Sith was at the time.

The circumstances and context of the ritual/meditation/whatever it is you wanna call it, exclude it from being considered a real feat. I'm not saying it's not impressive at all, I highly doubt very many groupings (let alone duos) of Sith would ever be capable of replicating the feat, but as VS attributable feats go, it's not impressive, imho. Even providing it took them months of sustained effort, it's still indicative of a level of power beyond what Valkorion can produce. The implications of the feat as detailed in the first few parts of Az's essay are that these are a pair of Sith beyond anything we've ever seen, a challenge so great that the Force must intervene directly to thwart them.

And the best part is, this meditation against the Force was just the beginning. It was the first prerequisite needed for Plagueis to further dominate the will of the Force, which was when he took the Force's very building blocks, the midi-chlorians, and bend them to his will. Not only did he learn to manipulate them, he learned to kill them and create them. And if you've read Darth Plagueis, you'll note that manipulating midi-chlorians was considered a much greater accomplishment than the meditation. Over the decades since the meditation, as Plagueis' grasp of MM grew, his power multiplied.

Valk has nothing to compare. Short of fighting as a disembodied entity, he has no way to defend the midi-chlorians of his host body, there is nothing he knows that Plagueis doesn't also know, there is no way he can hurt Plagueis, he's slower and a far less skilled fighter, and Plagueis' raw power is also greater, as Az showed with the earthquakes and weather phenomena caused by Plagueis' mere presence well before his prime.

Originally posted by Unbowed
There's no evidence that this applies to any of the Banites beside Plagueis. The rest of the Banites were just as traditional as any Sith who came before them. The early ones like Bane and Zannah are just what you described, building their order on the scraps of the Sith that came before them.

Tenebrous didn't seem to rely on the Force all that much, he simply used his enormous intelligence and computational ability to anticipate the coming of the Chosen One and tried to use bio-engineering to bide his time and snatch his body.

And Palpatine was just a massive idiot. Unlike most Sith Masters, Plagueis actually trusted and valued him, and would have freely shared his secrets with him. Palpatine had it made in the shade. If he would have just continued to handle the "profane" part of the Grand Plan while Plagueis continued his research, they would have toppled the republic, extended their lives and ruled forever. But his fear and ego got in the way.

And what did he do after he killed Plagueis? Same old same old. Got back to technology, rituals, Force Storms etc. Meet the new Sith, same as the old Sith.

Plagueis was the only one who ever got close to the Sith goal. Based on the revelation that in the years following the assassination attempt on him he actually increased his own midichlorian count, and the nature of his research in The Book of Sith, it's likely that given more time he would have eventually broken free of any limit and become some sort of god. Palpatine sensed this, and nipped it in the bud.

Other than Plagueis, the only other innovator is Krayt. Only Krayt just stumbled into it by accident. He died and in his own words experienced "rapture" and "the passageway to something greater". When he came back he was free of his previous limitations, and unique powers like the Essence Transfer, the ability to see shatterpointts, and the Dark Transfer came to him naturally. The same powers that previous generations of Sith lusted over all their lives. Originally posted by Unbowed
You just pulled this out of your ass.

The zero evidence that Sidious was anything other than Plagueis' junior partner in the ritual. Zilch.

Originally posted by ILS
Even providing it took them months of sustained effort, it's still indicative of a level of power beyond what Valkorion can produce. The implications of the feat as detailed in the first few parts of Az's essay are that these are a pair of Sith beyond anything we've ever seen, a challenge so great that the Force must intervene directly to thwart them.

And the best part is, this meditation against the Force was just the beginning. It was the first prerequisite needed for Plagueis to further dominate the will of the Force, which was when he took the Force's very building blocks, the midi-chlorians, and bend them to his will. Not only did he learn to manipulate them, he learned to kill them and create them. And if you've read Darth Plagueis, you'll note that manipulating midi-chlorians was considered a much greater accomplishment than the meditation. Over the decades since the meditation, as Plagueis' grasp of MM grew, his power multiplied.

Valk has nothing to compare. Short of fighting as a disembodied entity, he has no way to defend the midi-chlorians of his host body, there is nothing he knows that Plagueis doesn't also know, there is no way he can hurt Plagueis, he's slower and a far less skilled fighter, and Plagueis' raw power is also greater, as Az showed with the earthquakes and weather phenomena caused by Plagueis' mere presence well before his prime.

1: Not really. All it's indicative of is a level of power that both Sidious and Plagueis can achieve when they pour all their power into a single use of the Force for months on end, which again, multiplies the power used in the ritual exponentially. The individual power usable by either Sith at any given time in a normal circumstance, is VASTLY lower than what was used in the end of the ritual.

2: Learning to manipulate midichlorians is more effective in (possibly) combat, and just in general is more useful. The ability itself isn't an indicator of having greater power than was required for the meditation. It's a greater achievement because it's more useful, nothing more.

3: As Ant said, Valkorion doesn't rely on the midichlorians of his host body, as is plainly evident by the observation that Vitiate's power doesn't seem to fluctuate depending on his host. All his strength is in himself, in his spirit, which is supported by the fact that Valkorion is stated to be an entity. So midichlorian manipulation, more than likely, would have little to no effect on Valkorion. As for knowledge, the ancient Sith and Jedi are confirmed more than once to have access to powers that were lost later down the line, the most famous example being that most of the knowledge Kun possessed was lost upon his death, and (to my knowledge) there is no confirmation that said knowledge was ever recovered.

In response to speed, Valkorion can teleport, speed isn't an issue. More than that, however, augmentation can be roughly estimated by displays of power in the Force, since all augmentation is is pouring more Force power into your physical abilities than anything else. If Valkorion so chose, he could move incredibly fast, he's simply never been in a direct confrontation where that level of speed was necessary. That he lacks speed feats does not mean he lacks speed, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I don't remember the earthquake feat, but based on the vague sounding nature of it you gave, did Kenobi not create an earthquake at one point? And is Plagueis not vastly superior to Kenobi? So I don't think that means much of anything. His weather feat (which I assume you mean is the Naboo winter) is not that impressive, in fact, it wasn't even Plagueis' presence that caused the winter. The text makes note that the coldest winter in Naboo's history happened the same year Plagueis arrived on the world, but nothing in the text actually implies that Plagueis' presence was the agent that caused it. It can be easily chalked up to happenstance, or simple dramatic effect from a writing standpoint. That said, assuming it was Plagueis' presence that was the cause (which I don't disagree is a valid stance) it's still a planetary feat performed far closer to prime than Vitiate's draining of Ziost, which was performed while he was in a state weak enough to be bested by (I presume) the HoT, a far lower level of power than what Plagueis was at upon his arrival to Naboo. So if a version of Vitiate that was THAT weak, was able to perform a planetary feat, then why would Valkorion, his prime, not be able to do something like that to an exponentially greater scale? If a weakened Vitiate can perform a planet level feat, why is Plagueis' supposed changing of the weather and causing earthquakes more impressive than what Vitiate at his peak should be able to do, based on scaling?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As I recall plenty of Sith knew essence transfer and didn't Krayt learn about Dark Transfer from Xoxaan in the first place?
Essence Transfer was rare. Bane risked his life to learn it, and the Banites lost it after the Darth Gravid fiasco. And it was later the key to Palpatine's return, such as it was. It was far from a mundane ability.

As far as Dark Transfer, he learned it from Muur, but that's not the issue. He took it much further than even Cade, someone who learned the technique instinctively and had the Skywalker potential. It's directly stated he could even use it to resurrect himself, that's why Cade sent the shuttle containing Krayt's body directly into a sun.

Now let's see what Plagueis can do, when he's "drunk on power" right after he and Sidious tipped the balance of the Force in their favor:

Even with his power and skill at midichlorian manipulation, Plagueis' power of regeneration pales in comparison to Krayt's.

Plagueis would set his whole lab and Palpatine on fire just to have Krayt's Dark Transfer. It's basically the whole reason he started experimenting in the first place. It's what he and Sidious were after. It's what Vader was after. In Dark Lord the Chosen One uses all his power and can't do it for more than a few seconds. Krayt does it casually.

Only a moron like DarthAnt would pretend that any Sith(barring maybe Vitiate and Nihilus) wouldn't chop off their nuts to have that ability.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Only a moron like DarthAnt would pretend that any Sith(barring maybe Vitiate and Nihilus) wouldn't chop off their nuts to have that ability.

Yeah, **** him! What does he know?

Even Darth Zash knew the technique. It's rare in the modern era, but not at all to the ancient Sith. Vitiate also spammed the ability non-stop throughout his career.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yeah, **** him! What does he know?

Even Darth Zash knew the technique. It's rare in the modern era, but not at all to the ancient Sith. Vitiate also spammed the ability non-stop throughout his career. lol

Originally posted by darthbane77
1: Not really. All it's indicative of is a level of power that both Sidious and Plagueis can achieve when they pour all their power into a single use of the Force for months on end, which again, multiplies the power used in the ritual exponentially. The individual power usable by either Sith at any given time in a normal circumstance, is VASTLY lower than what was used in the end of the ritual.Valk, even with his most grandiose rituals, with the resources of two empires and countless willing minions supporting him, and has never done anything remotely as impressive as bending the will of the Force, even with thousands of years to pull it off. In contrast, vastly pre-prime Plagueis and Sidious pulled it off. As Az pointed out in the blog, Plagueis would go on to become so much more powerful he should be capable of replicating the meditation on his own.

The implications of Plagueis and Sidious' actions being so severe that the Force miraculously conceived a being with power to rival The Father just to stop them, just to "re-balance" the Force. So sorry, but it's just a plain better feat.

Originally posted by darthbane77
2: Learning to manipulate midichlorians is more effective in (possibly) combat, and just in general is more useful. The ability itself isn't an indicator of having greater power than was required for the meditation. It's a greater achievement because it's more useful, nothing more. There is no question of it's combat effectiveness: destroying midichlorians is "far easier" than creating them, according to Plagueis, and yet, Plagueis could incite his midichlorians to heal damaged tissue, while drunk and ambushed, that he could heal himself faster than Sidious' most powerful lightning could damage him. So, logically, Plagueis, while not drunk and combat-ready, should be able to kill off the midichlorians of damn near anyone who can't defend from it, and just as quickly heal himself.

But as for your criticism, no, it's not a greater achievement because "it's more useful", which isn't said anywhere in the book. It's a greater achievement, and required Plagueis to grow more powerful, because it was plainly more difficult to do than the meditation. Quote:



So do you understand now?

1. The meditation itself is more profound, with farther reaching implications and more impressive than anything Valk has done, even with all of his best rituals.

2. The meditation was less impressive than what proceeded, the resurrection of Venamis which "stunned Sidious into silence", which left Plagueis "drunk on newfound power." Further evidence of his increasing power and mastery was "his own increased midichlorian count."

Plagueis became exponentially more powerful in the 8 years after the meditation, and after that, he still had what is at least 2-5 years of growth before we get to TPM itself. So at minimum a full decade before his prime.
Originally posted by darthbane77
3: As Ant said, Valkorion doesn't rely on the midichlorians of his host body, as is plainly evident by the observation that Vitiate's power doesn't seem to fluctuate depending on his host. All his strength is in himself, in his spirit, which is supported by the fact that Valkorion is stated to be an entity. So midichlorian manipulation, more than likely, would have little to no effect on Valkorion. As for knowledge, the ancient Sith and Jedi are confirmed more than once to have access to powers that were lost later down the line, the most famous example being that most of the knowledge Kun possessed was lost upon his death, and (to my knowledge) there is no confirmation that said knowledge was ever recovered. Hence why I said "short of fighting as a disembodied entity." However, if we make a thread, and the goal of the thread is for Valk to keep his physical body alive, Plagueis would surely win.

As Az pointed out, Plagueis was well aware of the ancient's greatest feats, including Essence Transfer, Necromancy, saturation of an entire planet with dark side energy, creating illusions, creating alchemical monstrosities, and as noted in Darth Plagueis, "compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate." He was also aware of weather manipulation, flight, invisibility and teleportation... and you know what Plagueis had to say, in spite of knowing all these abilities exist, in spite of knowing exactly who Exar Kun and Vitiate are, once he went Neo and broke the source code of the Matrix Force? Quote:



And why was he so confident? Because, as echoed by Darth Wyyrlok III centuries later, nothing was outside of Plagueis' grasp once he could exert his will upon on the Force. Not in the mundane sense... in the sense that his will can subvert the will of the Force and tap into the source code, the midichlorians themselves, and alter them. Because Plagueis has essentially hacked the Force itself, there are no abilities he cannot learn.

Originally posted by darthbane77
In response to speed, Valkorion can teleport, speed isn't an issue. More than that, however, augmentation can be roughly estimated by displays of power in the Force, since all augmentation is is pouring more Force power into your physical abilities than anything else. If Valkorion so chose, he could move incredibly fast, he's simply never been in a direct confrontation where that level of speed was necessary. That he lacks speed feats does not mean he lacks speed, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Just being able to teleport doesn't change the fact that Plagueis is a far better fighter with far better speed feats. Talking about someone who can very easily oneshot a TPM Maul level duelist in a duel. Plagueis is also aware of teleporting, can likely do it himself, and is ultimately unimpressed by it.

Saying augmentation can simply be raised by pouring more power into it is true to an extent, but ultimately, what makes a good lightsaber duelist is the same thing as any other Force power; training. You do not get to neglect training in an area and expect to be great at it. Valk clearly has rudimentary superhuman augmentation like all Force users, but he has no feats to suggest he has mastered it to the same level as Plagueis; far from it, when Plagueis is outclassing people like TPM Maul, who himself has many impressive speed feats, including casual faster-than-eye speeds such that CCTV cameras need to be put into slow motion just to perceive him.

So not only are Plagueis' feats better, and his training far more extensive, but Valk has nothing but a laundry list of embarrassing combat showings, his only vindication being his superior power, an advantage he lacks here.
Originally posted by darthbane77
I don't remember the earthquake feat, but based on the vague sounding nature of it you gave, did Kenobi not create an earthquake at one point? And is Plagueis not vastly superior to Kenobi? So I don't think that means much of anything. His weather feat (which I assume you mean is the Naboo winter) is not that impressive, in fact, it wasn't even Plagueis' presence that caused the winter. The text makes note that the coldest winter in Naboo's history happened the same year Plagueis arrived on the world, but nothing in the text actually implies that Plagueis' presence was the agent that caused it. It can be easily chalked up to happenstance, or simple dramatic effect from a writing standpoint. That said, assuming it was Plagueis' presence that was the cause (which I don't disagree is a valid stance) it's still a planetary feat performed far closer to prime than Vitiate's draining of Ziost, which was performed while he was in a state weak enough to be bested by (I presume) the HoT, a far lower level of power than what Plagueis was at upon his arrival to Naboo. Kenobi has never created earthquakes, no. You might be referring to the debunked monolith feat which was a TK-chain reaction thing.

It was caused by Plagueis, because it's impossible for a planet of Naboo's climate to suddenly freeze lakes and waterfalls; it's akin to our worlds mediterranean. So his mere presence caused earthquakes that shook underground cities, countries and mountains, and severe collapses in temperature across much of the planet, well before his prime. Though it's fair to note it's not a TK feat and perhaps not good enough proof alone Plagueis > Valk.

Considering Vitiate used a ritual in unknown circumstances to pull off Ziost, as indicated by the codex (Az went over this too) chalking this up to being something Vitiate can do of his own power, let alone while weakened, seems illogical to me. However it seems like an apples and oranges comparison that is unnecessary, when we can safely say that the unbalancing of the Force and domination of midichlorians is proof enough alone that Plagueis is supreme. All the other tidbits are just nice additions or provide further clarification.

Glad to see ILS back to SW debating haha.

@Azronger

I would have appreciated your effort if you had made a honest case for why Darth Plagueis should be positioned in the TIER of the mightiest but your essay is filled with loopholes and dishonest drivels unfortunately.

Time to stop this nonsense.

How can you credit Plagueis alone for unbalancing the Force? Sidious helped him too.
With their might combined and over months; it's no wonder they did it. It was not instant. This is not a reason to say he is superior to Valkorion.

Also, you should ask yourself what does Luceno perceive the Balance and the Unbalancing as?

For him, the Balance=Force=light side and Unbalancing=Corruption=dark side

And you have writers like Drew who believe that the dark and the light side are both a part of the Force. This seems to be the view in most of TOR lore.

And I am pretty sure that the Force has been going througb this cycle of Balance-Imbalance since the Big Bang.

This whole balance of the Force stuff is a plot device to provide context to the birth of Anakin Skywalker without a father and also a central theme in Plagueis's novel in which his actions are explored in the light of having an impact on the mechinations of the Force but to use this as a basis to develop a perception of Plagueis's power is utterly misleading.

Taalon shifted the balance of the Force by simply dipping himself into the Font of Power, so what are we to make of this? That Abeloth for all her hype, was unable to impact the balance of the Force in profound ways?

This kind of logic is bordering ridiculous now.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This whole balance of the Force stuff is a plot device


Lmao.

That out of universe explanation isn't incompatible with the fact that Plagueis and Sidious wrestled with the Force itself.

Hey - Ziost is just a plot device to get an expansion pack, amirite?



Post-pool Taalon was clearly becoming extraordinarily powerful, given that the Font of Power is one of the most powerful power-ups in Star Wars - it's how The Son got his powers.



What? Abeloth had always been there.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Lmao.

That out of universe explanation isn't incompatible with the fact that Plagueis and Sidious wrestled with the Force itself.
There was no wrestling in their effort. They felt that the Force had yielded but the Force had other plans - Anakin Skywalker happened and he coupled with his children brought an end to reign of Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Post-pool Taalon was clearly becoming extraordinarily powerful, given that the Font of Power is one of the most powerful power-ups in Star Wars - it's how The Son got his powers.
You are missing the point. Why Abeloth not had a profound impact on the balance of the Force?

Again, Post-pool Taalon's strength is irrelevant. His very act of dipping himself into Font of Power was sufficient to nudge the Force towards Dark Side.

A big piss over months of efforts of Palpatine-Plagueis collective for the same end, if you ask me.

(This response is gonna look kinda messy, my apologies)

"Valk, even with his most grandiose rituals, with the resources of two empires and countless willing minions supporting him, and has never done anything remotely as impressive as bending the will of the Force, even with thousands of years to pull it off. In contrast, vastly pre-prime Plagueis and Sidious pulled it off. As Az pointed out in the blog, Plagueis would go on to become so much more powerful he should be capable of replicating the meditation on his own."

Neither has Plagueis, not on his own. He had the aid of Sidious, who helped in at least equal part. And again, this was over the course of an extended length of time, with each Sith pouring power into the meditation. They applied their own power, multiplied exponentially. I really don't know how else to explain it, or how to be clearer about it. The feat CANNOT be attributed to Plagueis or Sidious alone, it's a joint feat, and there is no indication that either of them could have done it on their own. Is it a better feat than anything Valk has? Yes, it is, I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is that the feat can be at all attributed to the power Plagueis or Sidious have at their disposal in a fight. The feat is simple not attributable to power summonable in combat.

Proof he became far more powerful? Proof he attained power enough to perform the feat on his own?
--------------------

"The implications of Plagueis and Sidious' actions being so severe that the Force miraculously conceived a being with power to rival The Father just to stop them, just to "re-balance" the Force. So sorry, but it's just a plain better feat."

Again, it's better as a joint feat. It can't be attributed to Plaguies specifically, which is what you're doing. He did NOT perform it on his own, he did NOT do it in a short amount of time, and he did NOT do it only with power available to him in a normal circumstance. Therefore, the feat is not an indicator of Plagueis' power. To say that it is, is to ignore literally EVERY bit of context surrounding the feat.

"There is no question of it's combat effectiveness: destroying midichlorians is "far easier" than creating them, according to Plagueis, and yet, Plagueis could incite his midichlorians to heal damaged tissue, while drunk and ambushed, that he could heal himself faster than Sidious' most powerful lightning could damage him. So, logically, Plagueis, while not drunk and combat-ready, should be able to kill off the midichlorians of damn near anyone who can't defend from it, and just as quickly heal himself."

I don't disagree with any of this.

"But as for your criticism, no, it's not a greater achievement because "it's more useful", which isn't said anywhere in the book. It's a greater achievement, and required Plagueis to grow more powerful, because it was plainly more difficult to do than the meditation. Quote:"

Requiring growth in power for Midi Manipulation=/=power required to enforce one's will on he Force alone. Which seems to be what you're implying. That stance is just, to be honest, hilariously stupid. As for the quote, nothing in it implies that the ability to use Midichlorian Manipulation makes him powerful enough to justify the meditation being attributed to him. In fact, the text itself seems simply to imply that this (Midi Manipulation) was groundbreaking solely because it had never been done before, and because of all the applications it could have, The text never directly states or implies that Plagueis underwent some significant growth in power to be able to use the ability, even the line "drunk on newfound power" in the context of the rest of the passage, seems only to imply that Plagueis was highly impressed with himself for learning how to cheat death. All that is, is gaining greater mastery over the Force's applications, it doesn't imply a jump in actual power.



So do you understand now?

"1. The meditation itself is more profound, with farther reaching implications and more impressive than anything Valk has done, even with all of his best rituals."

I'm not saying it wasn't more profound, I'm saying it's not attributable to Plagueis as an indicator of his average level of power.

"2. The meditation was less impressive than what proceeded, the resurrection of Venamis which "stunned Sidious into silence", which left Plagueis "drunk on newfound power." Further evidence of his increasing power and mastery was "his own increased midichlorian count.""

Less impressive in that Midichlorian Manipulation has far more far reaching possibilities, that doesn't necessitate that it's more impressive in regards to power required to perform it. What you're saying is in no way stated or implied by the text, and to think that midichlorian manipulation would require greater power than altering the balance of the Force, and forcing your will onto an all powerful cosmic force, is laughable.

"Plagueis became exponentially more powerful in the 8 years after the meditation, and after that, he still had what is at least 2-5 years of growth before we get to TPM itself. So at minimum a full decade before his prime.
Hence why I said "short of fighting as a disembodied entity." However, if we make a thread, and the goal of the thread is for Valk to keep his physical body alive, Plagueis would surely win."

Based on what did Plagueis grow exponentially? I've seen nothing to indicate as much. I'm not saying he didn't grow at all, mind you, only that he didn't grow significantly, at least not in regards to power. He very well could have grown significantly in regards to knowledge and mastery.

As Az pointed out, Plagueis was well aware of the ancient's greatest feats, including Essence Transfer, Necromancy, saturation of an entire planet with dark side energy, creating illusions, creating alchemical monstrosities, and as noted in Darth Plagueis, "compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate." He was also aware of weather manipulation, flight, invisibility and teleportation... and you know what Plagueis had to say, in spite of knowing all these abilities exist, in spite of knowing exactly who Exar Kun and Vitiate are, once he went Neo and broke the source code of the Matrix Force? Quote:

Being aware of these abilities, and knowing how to replicate them, are not the same thing. As for Plagueis' auto-fellating pats on the back, it's not convincing. Sith are constantly believing they're the greatest ever, that doesn't make it true. Plus, the quote itself makes note that there was a possibility of other Sith being his superior.



The quote can very easily include Vitiate or Kun as superiors to Plagueis. The quote isn't an objective statement of Plagueis' superiority to other Sith, it's Plagueis sucking his own dick.


"And why was he so confident? Because, as echoed by Darth Wyyrlok III centuries later, nothing was outside of Plagueis' grasp once he could exert his will upon on the Force. Not in the mundane sense... in the sense that his will can subvert the will of the Force and tap into the source code, the midichlorians themselves, and alter them. Because Plagueis has essentially hacked the Force itself, there are no abilities he cannot learn."

Except Plagueis didn't "hack the Force" on his own, as is very obvious by the feat itself. So Wyyrlok's word means very little when it's not in line with what ACTUALLY happened. I'm not saying Plagueis' discovery of Midichlorian Manipulation wouldn't lead to making himself more powerful once he mastered the ability, theoretically, he could have made his full potential nearly unlimited. But, unfortunately for him, and for the pro-Plagueis argument, he never reached that level of power. So his having learned to manipulate Midichlorians ultimately means very little in regards to how traditionally powerful he actually was. It means even less when faced with the likelihood that the ability wouldn't even work on Vitiate/Valkorion due to being an entity who doesn't rely on the midichlorians in their host body.

Considering Valkorion can both teleport and can slow down time or his perception of it to a standstill no one will be able to get an advantage over him in speed. Couple that with his ability to easily block lightsaber strikes with the Force and any threat with a lightsaber is slim at best.

Besides which his feat of having an entire duel with Revan in a few seconds is arguably just as good as anything Plagueis has done and thats in his weakest on-screen incarnation.

Not going to debunk the thread. But just nitpicking at a few points here and there. Anyone want to explain what tipping the balance of the force, in spaced-out ritual none the less, means in a short moment of force combat?

Or why, just because this particular ritual happened, he is better than anyone who didn't complete the same feat (or even try for that matter).

Originally posted by IQ_test
Not going to debunk the thread. But just nitpicking at a few points here and there. Anyone want to explain what tipping the balance of the force, in spaced-out ritual none the less, means in a short moment of force combat?

Or why, just because this particular ritual happened, he is better than anyone who didn't complete the same feat (or even try for that matter).

It's a proxy and indicator of Plagueis's power, he isn't going to start meditating in front of Valkorion ofc.

It doesn't mean anything.

(This is also gonna look messy, I haven't gotten the hang of KMC's formatting yet. So again, I apologize.)

"Just being able to teleport doesn't change the fact that Plagueis is a far better fighter with far better speed feats. Talking about someone who can very easily oneshot a TPM Maul level duelist in a duel. Plagueis is also aware of teleporting, can likely do it himself, and is ultimately unimpressed by it."

I'm not saying Plagueis doesn't have better feats in regards to speed, only that speed will play less of a role than what you think it will. Plagueis being unimpressed by teleportation means nothing, his opinion on it doesn't make it any less useful in combat. Just because Sidious was unimpressed by the prospect of saber combat, doesn't mean he considered a lightsaber or a skilled duelist as any less of a threat to his life.

"Saying augmentation can simply be raised by pouring more power into it is true to an extent, but ultimately, what makes a good lightsaber duelist is the same thing as any other Force power; training. You do not get to neglect training in an area and expect to be great at it. Valk clearly has rudimentary superhuman augmentation like all Force users, but he has no feats to suggest he has mastered it to the same level as Plagueis; far from it, when Plagueis is outclassing people like TPM Maul, who himself has many impressive speed feats, including casual faster-than-eye speeds such that CCTV cameras need to be put into slow motion just to perceive him."

Oh I don't disagree with that, in a close up confrontation, i don't argue that Valkorion can really win at that point. Plagueis is obviously more skilled. I'm simply saying that, if need be, Valkorion can up his speed to a necessary level to keep himself away from Plagueis, and will have his ability to teleport to help him do so.

"So not only are Plagueis' feats better, and his training far more extensive, but Valk has nothing but a laundry list of embarrassing combat showings, his only vindication being his superior power, an advantage he lacks here.
Kenobi has never created earthquakes, no. You might be referring to the debunked monolith feat which was a TK-chain reaction thing."

Again, I don't disagree with having less training in physical combat. I do disagree with Plagueis having superior power, but as evident by the fact we're having this debate, that much is obvious, haha. I wasn't aware Kenobi's feat had been debunked, and I just read Plagueis' earthquake quote not long ago, and I agree that Plagueis' feat is well beyond what Kenobi did.

"It was caused by Plagueis, because it's impossible for a planet of Naboo's climate to suddenly freeze lakes and waterfalls; it's akin to our worlds mediterranean. So his mere presence caused earthquakes that shook underground cities, countries and mountains, and severe collapses in temperature across much of the planet, well before his prime. Though it's fair to note it's not a TK feat and perhaps not good enough proof alone Plagueis > Valk."

It seems then that it was Plagueis' presence. Still, that doesn't necessitate superiority to Valkorion. Sidious, who is Plagueis' superior, has no feats like causing earthquakes and changing weather with his mere presence, not to the same extent as Sidious, but we still consider Sidious his superior.

"Considering Vitiate used a ritual in unknown circumstances to pull off Ziost, as indicated by the codex (Az went over this too) chalking this up to being something Vitiate can do of his own power, let alone while weakened, seems illogical to me. However it seems like an apples and oranges comparison that is unnecessary, when we can safely say that the unbalancing of the Force and domination of midichlorians is proof enough alone that Plagueis is supreme. All the other tidbits are just nice additions or provide further clarification."

I'm not convinced it was a ritual, it didn't seem like one to me when I played through the game. Vitiate's own dialogue just seems to imply that he drained Ziost "because I could" and not as any necessity or ending of a ritual. This is why I attribute it to him and what he should be capable of off-hand. As for dominating the Force and manipulating midichlorians, I've explained numerous times now why that feat isn't attributable to Plagueis in any way for a VS scenario.

Didn't Krayt unbalance the Force too? I seem to remember that...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Didn't Krayt unbalance the Force too? I seem to remember that... The Force is constantly shifting between light and dark dominance. Pretty much any time the Sith are prevalent in the galaxy, the Dark Side takes dominance.

Force and Destiny Core Rulebook went to great lengths to emphasis the fact that the balance of the Force tends to shift over time due to various factors. Revan novel also hinted as much.

BioWare simply did not tell the story of Valkorion from the perspective of his influence over the balance of the Force. It is quiet possible that Leeland Chee didn't approve or something because this theme is central to the plot of Canon lore.

Originally posted by IQ_test
Not going to debunk the thread. But just nitpicking at a few points here and there. Anyone want to explain what tipping the balance of the force, in spaced-out ritual none the less, means in a short moment of force combat?

Or why, just because this particular ritual happened, he is better than anyone who didn't complete the same feat (or even try for that matter). Without any external aid, they "irrevocably tipped" the cosmic Force towards the Dark Side, shrouding all of the Jedi's perception of the future henceforth, a tangible alteration to the Force felt by anyone, even the untrained, strong in the Force. The result of this "etheric war" on the Force was the Force saying "well, I better make a literal God to combat these guys, otherwise the Force will never be re-balanced."

And after this, Plagueis kicks the Force in the balls further by hacking the source code so to speak, taking the power of creation and death into his hands quite literally, something the Force will actively resist you trying to do. This let Plagueis create midichlorians out of nothing, achieve true biological immortality, and kill people's midichlorians by will.

Whereas, despite all of Valkorion's rituals, schemes and machinations, the thousands of years and two empires worth of resources at his disposal, at no point did he come close to having this kind of control over the Force, never did the Dark Side become so domineering, never did he scratch that kind of immortality, etc. He just wasn't as big a deal. Also, as a tidbit, he has no TP feats on par with touching the mind of every single being in the galaxy, which is one hundred quadrillion beings... not counting those not counted in a census or animals, sealife and insects.

Even if you think Valk is more powerful, he has no way to resist his host body being killed off.Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering Valkorion can both teleport and can slow down time or his perception of it to a standstill no one will be able to get an advantage over him in speed. Couple that with his ability to easily block lightsaber strikes with the Force and any threat with a lightsaber is slim at best.

Besides which his feat of having an entire duel with Revan in a few seconds is arguably just as good as anything Plagueis has done and thats in his weakest on-screen incarnation. Not convinced he can slow down time. Plagueis can speedblitz Maul. Maul's feat of moving so fast CCTV cameras need to be put in slow motion just to start seeing him (which includes him climbing and shit), or Plagueis moving faster than a droid can track (this specific droid being able to track the movement of blaster bolts).

How is someone much slower than Plagueis being able to teleport useful? Plagueis himself likely knows how to teleport and isn't impressed by it. All Force users have precognition, which teleportation doesn't circumvent.

Anyway, Ima duck out now and play Skyrim. @ILS, if you wanna continue our conversation, let me know via PM. Otherwise, I'll get back to this either later tonight or tomorrow sometime.

Good convo so far, I think this is the first time neither of us have had an extended convo without getting mad at the other somehow, lol.

Originally posted by darthbane77
The Force is constantly shifting between light and dark dominance. Pretty much any time the Sith are prevalent in the galaxy, the Dark Side takes dominance.

Only the actions of Plagueis and Sidious precipitated the need for a Chosen One to restore balance. The effect they had on the Force is factually greater than any Sith who preceded them, including Valk.

There's no getting around it, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Only the actions of Plagueis and Sidious precipitated the need for a Chosen One to restore balance. The effect they had on the Force is factually greater than any Sith who preceded them, including Valk.

There's no getting around it, I'm afraid. Not saying otherwise, just answering Neph's comment.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Not saying otherwise, just answering Neph's comment.

As long as you recognize the ground realities.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As long as you recognize the ground realities. Even I'M not dense enough to argue that what Sidious and Plagueis did isn't more impressive than what other Sith do in regards to changing the balance of the Force. lol

Originally posted by ILS
Not convinced he can slow down time. Plagueis can speedblitz Maul. Maul's feat of moving so fast CCTV cameras need to be put in slow motion just to start seeing him (which includes him climbing and shit), or Plagueis moving faster than a droid can track (this specific droid being able to track the movement of blaster bolts).

How is someone much slower than Plagueis being able to teleport useful? Plagueis himself likely knows how to teleport and isn't impressed by it. All Force users have precognition, which teleportation doesn't circumvent.

Well he does it on screen so it doesn't really matter what you're convinced about. I also don't give a shit about Maul. He's an insect to Valkorion and gets chumped by dogs. Not that Plagueis ever blitzed Maul. Revan is just as fast as those feats and Valkorion is just as or faster than Revan.

He isn't much faster, that's how. Even if he were Valkorion obviously has reaction speed capable of getting away from him. But really you're underestimating teleportation (which Plagueis has never used so whoop di do). Valkorion just needs to put some distance between them using it and then force a Force battle.

Originally posted by ILS
Whereas, despite all of Valkorion's rituals, schemes and machinations, the thousands of years and two empires worth of resources at his disposal, at no point did he come close to having this kind of control over the Force, never did the Dark Side become so domineering, never did he scratch that kind of immortality, etc. He just wasn't as big a deal.
What proof do you have that those actions did not influence the balance of the Force in profound ways? Because this was not explicitly stated?

You need to study Force and Destiny Core Rulebook to understand that the whole "balance of the Force" stuff is not unique to the stories of Darths Plagueis and Sidious actually. The balance has tangibly shifted over time throughout the history due to various factors actually.

Originally posted by ILS
Also, as a tidbit, he has no TP feats on par with touching the mind of every single being in the galaxy, which is one hundred quadrillion beings... not counting those not counted in a census or animals, sealife and insects.
Quote? And what did he achieve from this?

Originally posted by ILS
Even if you think Valk is more powerful, he has no way to resist his host body being killed off.
When has Darth Plagueis demonstrated this capability in a combat situation? Or is this is just an inference?

Originally posted by ILS
Not convinced he can slow down time. Plagueis can speedblitz Maul. Maul's feat of moving so fast CCTV cameras need to be put in slow motion just to start seeing him (which includes him climbing and shit), or Plagueis moving faster than a droid can track (this specific droid being able to track the movement of blaster bolts).
Really now.

Darth Marr moved so fast that Darth Lachrics felt that he teleported in front of her. And Revan had no trouble in responding to his moves. And Valkorion had no trouble in responding to the moves of both. In-fact, Valkorion struck Darth Marr before he could even make a move.

Stop assuming that Darth Plagueis has any advantage over Valkorion in the context of speed.

In-fact, slowing down the reality to the extent that it seemed as if the Force-users were not even moving - is a ridiculously stupendous demonstration of reflexes and reaction-time because this is how Valkorion wiped out an entire contingent of Knights of Zakuul and droids in a blink of an eye afterwards, before one of the Knights could even land a blow on an ally of the Outlander while his weapon was already in motion.

Originally posted by ILS
How is someone much slower than Plagueis being able to teleport useful? Plagueis himself likely knows how to teleport and isn't impressed by it. All Force users have precognition, which teleportation doesn't circumvent.
See above.

Teleportation is also an instantaneous act as apparent from the feats of Darth Jadus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Quote? And what did he achieve from this?

He didn't. It wasn't telepathy, it was a failed attempt to use midichlorian manipulation to create life.

"But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases."

Originally posted by ILS
Aside from the fact Taalon was stepping into a source of power that would make him Son-tier, the Son being a god who would probably tear the galaxy apart if he turned up, the mere fact that Luke can sense anything, can sense any kind of tipping taking place proves that this isn't the same. What Plagueis and Sidious did shrouded the Force so fully in the Dark Side, Yoda and all the others couldn't sense anything about the future.

Taalon caused some tipping to start taking place, whereas Plagueis and Sidious went to war with the Force, forced it to yield, and then suffused the entire galaxy with the Dark Side such that everyone felt it. It's not anywhere as impressive.
Slight shifts in either direction is not the same thing as going to war with the Force, winning, having the Dark Side permeate everything, and the Force spawning a divine being to re-balance it. Let's go back to being honest now.
Darths Plagueis and Sidious spent months meditating to achieve that end so the shift was arguably more profound accordingly. In case of Taalon, his mere act of dipping into the Font of Power was sufficient to start the shift and who is to say that it didn't become more profound with each passing moment afterwards and can you even tell that this instance of the shift stopped soon?

Why should I consider magnitude of the shift a valid argument when the duo of Darths Plagueis and Sidious spent months to achieve the end they desired? Did Valkorion attempt such a thing? No. Did any other Sith or practitioner of the Dark Side? No.

So what is the point in citing this phenomenon again? Another point is that why the actions of Abeloth were not having a profound impact on the balance of the Force? Why is only Valkorion supposed to be accountable in this matter?

Originally posted by Nephthys
He didn't. It wasn't telepathy, it was a failed attempt to use midichlorian manipulation to create life.

"But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn’t equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out—indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated—to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.
But ultimately to no end.
The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases."
Oh dear.

This is sad. Really sad.

Valkorion was casually spawning monsters of pure Dark Side energy on Ziost while partaking in other acts.

"revelations"

That other legend totally isn't a sock.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh dear.

This is sad. Really sad.

Valkorion was casually spawning monsters of pure Dark Side energy on Ziost while partaking in other acts. If it was the same ability, why wasn't Valk able to make himself immortal by creating new midichlorians, like Plagueis? It's clearly just Sith Alchemy taken to it's apex.

Will get to the rest later.

Let's play a game.

Forgive me for not quoting but I'd rather not.

So firstly, we're supposed to ignore Plagueis' lack of feats on the basis of the excuse that he's hiding his powers from the Jedi Order? Interesting, so you're saying that a wounded Plagueis can't hide his powers from the senses of Jedi on Coruscant but Exar Kun's spirit can assault Corran Horn through Kyp in a clash of Force powers and shroud it from the senses of Master Luke Skywalker less than 15 meters away?



Interesting observation. Though I'm glad you brought this up.

As for the vaunted imbalance feat, I mean it's a great willpower feat. That's if you assume that months of intense meditation which united Sidious and Plagueis into a single entity wasn't punching entire magnitudes above their normal weight. But again, it wasn't a feat of power, it was specifically willing the Force to shift to the dark side. All very interesting stuff, it'd be ashame if the Sith Triumvirate had turned the Republic into a dark side nexus and seemingly wrecked the balance of the Force:



So as far as Valkorion is concerned, especially given how Revan's mere existence was an ever-growing cancer in the very fabric of the Force, this is kinda small change. His goal was never to cause an imbalance in the Force, but to become a God.

Valkorion does however scale off of the Dread Masters who had harnessed, mastered and perfected powers that could turn trillions insane and terraform planets into extreme, immeasurable dark side worlds. They were insignificant to Vitiate, who mind-controlled them. Vitiate being a pre-prime Valkorion.





Now, I'm glad you referenced the Ones:



Not only does Plagueis affirm the Jedi interpretation of a prophesied being meant to restore the balance of Mortis, but that very prophecy becomes a reality:



Oh and who just so happens to be getting more powerful as he realises his own potential?





Oh and no, before the Plagueis brigade try it, this Canon statement can't be reconciled with claiming causality with the imbalance feat of Legends material.

It gets better though, the Jedi prophecy was merely an interpretation of the same goal as the Father:







Anakin's prophecy as the Chosen One was to replace the Father and maintain the balance of the Force and the Ones of Mortis. Whatever involvement the Sith had, it was very much secondary.

As far as Midichlorian Manipulation is concerned, it's a very jagged means of controlling life and death. It's not unimpressive by any means, but unless you're completely ignorant of Star Wars: The Old Republic. Not only do we see Revan continuing to live despite his body being literally dead but the Dread Masters have resurrected the dead before, Kephess and their own number being examples of this:











All of the aforementioned are utterly insignificant next to the power of Vitiate, nevermind Valkorion. You've made the mistake of equating eternal life with actual bonified immortality through Godhood. This was Valkorion's true goal.

As far as Naboo's winter goes, colour me unimpressed when the Dread Masters achieved far greater feats of corruption on their own, as noted previously.

This is an outright lie as far as Ziost is concerned. The quote is clearly stating that unlike the Nathema Ritual or the weapon on Yavin IV, the Ziost cataclysm was a display of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

He is likewise confirmed to be greater in every way to Darth Nihilus, a multi-planet killer:







I mean, quantify landscape? But hey, that's a cute lightning feat. The building Valkorion is shooting lightning out of dwarfs skyscrapers beneath it, and the lightning itself is merely the discharge that surrounds Arcann who tanks the brunt of it. I'm really not seeing how this is very impressive for Plagueis whatsoever.

Really? Physical augmentation feats. Well given how a sub-Peak Decieved Malgus can percieve the FTL jump of a ship and appear to simultanepusly exist in a dozen places at once. That speed feat wank isn't much in a Valkorion comparison. Not when he can percieve time at a standstill.

All the other feats are essentially replicated by Valk's inferiors and I'm not wasting my time on those.

Valkorion is vastly more powerful than Plagueis, no question.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Forgive me for not quoting but I'd rather not.

So firstly, we're supposed to ignore Plagueis' lack of feats on the basis of the excuse that he's hiding his powers from the Jedi Order? Interesting, so you're saying that a wounded Plagueis can't hide his powers from the senses of Jedi on Coruscant but Exar Kun's spirit can assault Corran Horn through Kyp in a clash of Force powers and shroud it from the senses of Master Luke Skywalker less than 15 meters away?


Oh please. The Banite Sith hid under the noses from the Jedi Order and the Republic for 1000 years and your point is that Plagueis once got detected while near-death and fighting for his life?



Your counter to a shift in power so blatant that the Force itself needed to spawn Anakin and the Jedi's Force abilities were clouded even at the height of their power is that some "citizens" interpreted the Republic's apparent defeat as the dark side winning?

Even if we took your quote as remotely meaningful and not the perspective of non-Force sensitives on the "cosmic balance", the Plagueis novel makes it a point to differentiate what Sidious and Plagueis did from a mere "unbalancing" of the Force that happens when a lot of powerful dark siders show up. You may notice that Sidious and Plagueis didn't overpower or hunt down the Jedi to do it; they exerted their dominance on the Force while master Yoda and company were still there! From both that description and Sidious's transcendence following Plagueis's death it's clear that there's no comparison between these vague, trivial unbalances you can pull and what this duo accomplished long before their primes.



Yet he failed to become immortal while Sidious speculates that Plagueis had essentially succeeded, breathing apparatus notwithstanding. Mind you, Sidious's own intentions to become a God were being accomplished far faster than Vitiate's 1000+ year plan, and we can speculate that Plagueis could've done similar, given that he was increasing his own Force potential.



OK, cool story. Not exactly on the same cosmic level of power as Plagueis.



LMFAO.

Not only has Pablo confirmed the Chosen One was created to combat Plagueis's MM, but there's no mutual exclusivity between the Son growing more powerful and Plagueis's unbalancing because, you know, the two contain a pretty obvious causal link (Plagueis's feat made the Son stronger). This is, of course, ignoring the fact that:

1. This shift just happens to occur within the same month that Sidious and Plagueis meditate.

2. The specific details of the Son growing stronger are not Legends.

So no, this is a non-retcon and you still have to accept the fact that Plagueis presented a cosmic threat to the Force on the level never seen before.



Nope, because this isn't Legends, and because multiple sources confirm that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy, including Lucas himself. There are multiple ways to skin a cat.



What you're missing here is that:

1. Plagueis is the only Sith in Star Wars to that point who could have actually become immortal. Had Sidious not suffocated him, it's implied that he would've succeeded in his goal, given that he had already successfully boosted his own potential and reversed his aging. Vitiate, by comparison, was not truly immortal and would've eventually died.

2. Plagueis's control over MM was so powerful that he, while drunk, tanked the full Force lightning of Darth Sidious, who already had chronologically received a "most powerful sith of all time" accolade, for an extended period of time without suffering physical damage. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed and he suffocated; the actual lightning wasn't physically killing him.

3. Plagueis states that using MM to kill is much easier than using it to heal, so if he can heal in real-time from Sidious's full powered lightning, he could basically one-shot anyone save a select few beings with it.

4. Plagueis achieved all this in less than a century. What had Vitiate accomplished in a century again? Remember that learning rate is going to be correlated with their overall aptitude.



A goal he never succeeded at, so what's the point?



Just by their arrival?



...which means nothing, lol.



Via a savant-style ability, sure. But only your second quote is OOU, and guess what, Plagueis has a blurb putting him above Nihilus and sith-Vitiate too.



That's not really a landscape but OK.



The difference here is that in addition to being more powerful in the Force, Plagueis is also a vastly superior close quarters combatant; Valkorion relies on just being so much more powerful than everyone around him that he doesn't need to actually be a competent fighter (and nexuses, of course).



Which of his inferiors tanked full power lightning from the most powerful sith lord in history again?



Nope. The Force clearly thinks otherwise. Plagueis is cosmically a vastly greater threat than Valkorion ever was. It's like comparing Thanos to Vulture.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Not only has Pablo confirmed the Chosen One was created to combat Plagueis's MM
?????

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
?????

Ask DarthSkywalker0 for the quote.

Are you arguing that the Chosen One's creation was for the MM and not the meditation feat, or are you lumping them together?

I mean the former was a prereq for the latter.

Also re: the claim that Plagueis and Sidious didn't unbalance the Force: why was it still unbalanced after the Son died?

Those are saying "lol Krayt unbalanced the Force too" are missing the point: the novel explicitly differentiates between a mere tipping of the balance and what Plagueis and Sidious pulled off. The Force itself considers them far, far greater threats than Valkorion ever was, given that Anakin >>>>>>>>> The Outlander as a contingency plan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
There was no wrestling in their effort. They felt that the Force had yielded but the Force had other plans - Anakin Skywalker happened and he coupled with his children brought an end to reign of Palpatine.


The Force had fought back on several occasions except that one, because the eventual counterattack was Anakin, as you said. And Anakin is the most powerful counterattack the Force has ever used on anyone.



Presumably she did? But she was imprisoned in Sinkhole station; Abeloth presented a sufficient threat that the Son and Daughter were needed to restrain her, and later she was released as a consequence of Caedus's changing the will of the Force. So Abeloth has similar cosmic importance attached to her. Valkorion does not.



Because it made him powerful...

What was your point again?



Lol you downplay them for taking months while Vitiate took a thousand years with a nexus to do a small fraction of that on a cosmic scale.

Looks like my blog generated a lot of discussion in my absence.

Why is Teleportation being brought up? Even Sheev's lowliest stooges could do it. Let's not pretend Plagueis can't, after learning to master any Force ability by willing it so.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/6013534-1879284399-59891.gif

When has Valkorion ever used Teleportation anyway, aside from as a spirit, which according to the Jedi Academy Training Manual all spirits can do as the ability is part of their inherent nature as discorporate entities rather than a regular Force technique.

Ellimist wins 9/10, good fight

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oh please. The Banite Sith hid under the noses from the Jedi Order and the Republic for 1000 years and your point is that Plagueis once got detected while near-death and fighting for his life?

No. Az's point is that Plagueis' feat was detected by the Jedi. My point is that it's pathetically easy to shroud such disturbances.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your counter to a shift in power so blatant that the Force itself needed to spawn Anakin and the Jedi's Force abilities were clouded even at the height of their power is that some "citizens" interpreted the Republic's apparent defeat as the dark side winning?

1.Anakin's prophecy being about the Ones of Mortis was confirmed by Lucas who wrote the fvcking arc, Ell. It's even speculated that the Father wrote the prophecy in the first place.

2.The point isn't that the citizens of the Slice believed the balance was non-existent. The point is that the Republic had been shattered and that the Sith could literally feed on the power of the galaxy spanning despair they had induced by conquering a massive section of the galaxy.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yet he failed to become immortal while Sidious speculates that Plagueis had essentially succeeded, breathing apparatus notwithstanding. Mind you, Sidious's own intentions to become a God were being accomplished far faster than Vitiate's 1000+ year plan, and we can speculate that Plagueis could've done similar, given that he was increasing his own Force potential.

Valkorion achieved a higher degree of immortality than Plagueis did. He not only achieved eternal life where his body would never succumb to aging or degradation, but he also achieved enough power post-Yavin IV to not just survive as a spirit, but possess millions of Sith and Jedi, create nigh-immortal Monoliths out of raw dark side energy and consume Ziost with a death field.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
OK, cool story. Not exactly on the same cosmic level of power as Plagueis.

Given Plagueis has never displayed an actual bonified feat by himself that can equate to anything of the sort . . .

Originally posted by The Ellimist
LMFAO.

Not only has Pablo confirmed the Chosen One was created to combat Plagueis's MM, but there's no mutual exclusivity between the Son growing more powerful and Plagueis's unbalancing because, you know, the two contain a pretty obvious causal link (Plagueis's feat made the Son stronger). This is, of course, ignoring the fact that:

1. This shift just happens to occur within the same month that Sidious and Plagueis meditate.

2. The specific details of the Son growing stronger are not Legends.

So no, this is a non-retcon and you still have to accept the fact that Plagueis presented a cosmic threat to the Force on the level never seen before.

Them causing a shift in the dark side isn't in contention. Anakin Skywalker being the result of that is. Per Disney Canon, Legends is considered to be literally just that within Disney Canon itself. Equivalent to real-world mythology. The Mortis arc subverts Plagueis.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope, because this isn't Legends, and because multiple sources confirm that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy, including Lucas himself. There are multiple ways to skin a cat.

Lucas himself wrote the Mortis arc, and as per Dave Filoni, the prophecy of the Chosen One was an integral part of the entire arc that Lucas wanted to create.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What you're missing here is that:

1. Plagueis is the only Sith in Star Wars to that point who could have actually become immortal. Had Sidious not suffocated him, it's implied that he would've succeeded in his goal, given that he had already successfully boosted his own potential and reversed his aging. Vitiate, by comparison, was not truly immortal and would've eventually died.



Don't mistake immortality with genuine god-like invincibility.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Plagueis's control over MM was so powerful that he, while drunk, tanked the full Force lightning of Darth Sidious, who already had chronologically received a "most powerful sith of all time" accolade, for an extended period of time without suffering physical damage. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed and he suffocated; the actual lightning wasn't physically killing him.

Plagueis' ability to control his own midichlorians is at a faster rate than Sheev's lightning can kill him. Given Valkorion can genuinely freeze time when he regains full power in Chapter 9 of KOTET, I'm afraid Plagueis ain't manipulating a damn thing.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. Plagueis states that using MM to kill is much easier than using it to heal, so if he can heal in real-time from Sidious's full powered lightning, he could basically one-shot anyone save a select few beings with it.

Good job Tenebrae is merely possessing hosts and can body swap.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Plagueis achieved all this in less than a century. What had Vitiate accomplished in a century again? Remember that learning rate is going to be correlated with their overall aptitude.

Creating a vastly more complex holocron than Bane had difficulty creating, as a pre-teen. Dominating, Force-stripping and soul-rending Lord Dramath by 13. Becoming the apprentice of Marka Ragnos. Achieving his stated supreme potential amongst the ancient Sith. Also enacting a ritual which granted him eternal life, and empowering him with the largest nexus the galaxy would ever see.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A goal he never succeeded at, so what's the point?

It's a goal he's strongly implied to be capable of doing without ritual aid, yes.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Just by their arrival?

Their devices were going to simultaneously drive the populations insane and turn the planets into Oricon-like dark side worlds. Not by their arrival, of course, but given the feats are vastly more dangerous then I'm confident that doesn't really matter.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
...which means nothing, lol.

It means it wasn't a ritual, which he claimed meant otherwise.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Via a savant-style ability, sure. But only your second quote is OOU, and guess what, Plagueis has a blurb putting him above Nihilus and sith-Vitiate too.

The second and third quotes are OOU and Revan's statement is canonically accurate. But no, I'm afraid a disputable claim isn't going to cut it when both have greater feats than he ever achieved.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's not really a landscape but OK.

The OP was making a pretty nonsensical rant about FL in the first place.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The difference here is that in addition to being more powerful in the Force, Plagueis is also a vastly superior close quarters combatant; Valkorion relies on just being so much more powerful than everyone around him that he doesn't need to actually be a competent fighter (and nexuses, of course).

Actually, given he was drawing knowledge from Revan, the Hero of Tython, etc., then he's probably a far better lightsaber duelist than most consider him to be. But given Valkorion simutaneously dominated the Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann whilst surrounded, such competency or lack thereof is irrelevant.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Which of his inferiors tanked full power lightning from the most powerful sith lord in history again?

Vitiate in a Voss host waged a mental and Force-based war with Sel-Makor, a Force entity with the strength to warp realities and stalemated him whilst simultaneously placing his energy in dominating the Dread Masters, Vaylin, the Hero of Tython and more. Whilst also providing the First Son enough power to shroud thousands of Children of the Emperor, each of them themselves empowered beyond what 'any Sith could achieve'. When the First Son was destroyed and the Children were revealed to the Jedi Order, the disturbance in the Force was described as the dark side itself screaming at the Jedi Order.

That's more impressive.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nope. The Force clearly thinks otherwise. Plagueis is cosmically a vastly greater threat than Valkorion ever was. It's like comparing Thanos to Vulture.

Valkorion threatened the very existence of the Force to a degree that the Force shit itself upon Revan planning to resurrect him, and sent visions to Jedi and Sith across the galaxy.

wow, sheevites be disposing of their enemies like:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/b8a26afc2fcfdd1d2ba3a3de153eafa6/tenor.gif

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/6Uwne1F
Azronger facing the TOR brigade

Guess ILS didn't wanna continue our convo. #sad

Legend and AP seem to be doing a fine job of defending Valkorion though.

The Energy released from Valkorians death was so powerful, it caused force users like Satele shan to nearly blackout, across the galaxy. He Physically affected all force users, not just cosmically.(which is easier to screw with on a larger scale.)

Originally posted by Haschwalth
The Energy released from Valkorians death was so powerful, it caused force users like Satele shan to nearly blackout, across the galaxy. He Physically affected all force users, not just cosmically.(which is easier to screw with on a larger scale.)

The energy released from Plagueis' death shook Coruscant and tugged the dark matter of the galaxy, rearranging the orbits of planets and stars.

Valk takes another L.

Az, Plagueis' death only shook Coruscant to its core and its atmosphere.

The text mentions shaking the stars themselves.

Originally posted by Azronger
The energy released from Plagueis' death shook Coruscant and tugged the dark matter of the galaxy, rearranging the orbits of planets and stars.

Valk takes another L.
This is false.

And the novel itself refute your leap of logics in regards to powers of Darth Plagueis and Palpatine. See my rebuttal.

*people still taking that quote literally*

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CreativeTheseImperialeagle-max-1mb.gif

You realise what effects that would have? There'd be fvckin' solar implosions, gravitonic shifts, volcanic super eruptions. Coruscant's towers would be utterly trashed. Total destruction of solar systems. But let's ignore logic, 'cus it wanks Sheev.

Originally posted by Azronger
The energy released from Plagueis' death shook Coruscant and tugged the dark matter of the galaxy, rearranging the orbits of planets and stars.

Valk takes another L.

Yeah nah, it only shook coruscant, and made stars flicker, which ain't impressive considering a mid tier such as Brakiss has done similar.

Their are over 10 million inhabital star systems in the galaxy and valks death, affected the Force user's over all that area.

Plageuis takes another loss.

No, AP and LeG, I'll never again address either of your posts. I thought that should've been clear already.

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Concession accepted.
And Cell saga vegeta's Final flash, should of screwed with the earths Eco system,
And the people watching TTGL fight the anti spiral, should of had to wait millions of years to see it.

There are a lot of contradictions in fiction, but we don't simply cast away the feats.

He screwed with a star, and the guy is fodder, compared to the likes of Exar Kun.

Star's were only flickering in nearby star systems, from plageuis feat, so it's not as big as you claim it to be. Did the Jedi Order feel the full affect from it?

An affect that affected Force sensitive's physically from all over the Galaxy>flickering and shaking a few nearby stars.

You do know how vast space is right?

Those statements convey the perspective of Palpatine, how he felt at the moment due to the tremor that shook Coruscant.

If Sun rise from the West then this imply that the axis of Earth has changed.

Originally posted by Haschwalth
He screwed with a star, and the guy is fodder, compared to the likes of Exar Kun.

Star's were only flickering in nearby star systems, from plageuis feat, so it's not as big as you claim it to be. Did the Jedi Order feel the full affect from it?

There is nothing relating him to Exar Kun.

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
There is nothing relating him to Exar Kun.
He is inferior to Kueller, kyp when they were Jedi apprentices to Luke at the Praxeum. And Exar Kun shat on them.

Valk's death caused a tidal wave that threatened to knock out Satele and was felt by Darth Marr. It's also referenced by Darth Hexid after KOTET.

The feat is legit.

Where do you hear about it threatening Shan?

Originally posted by LordOfTheLight
There is nothing relating him to Exar Kun.

He and his fellow students were being amped beyond any power they could imagine and Kun's spirit was going to choke them out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where do you hear about it threatening Shan? https://i.imgur.com/iETG4rD.png

Ok, then its definitely legit. I expect an extensive grovelling apology from Tempest to AP and myself.

"Shaking the stars themselves(...)" is just a metaphor. You see the stars in the sky whenever you watch up at night, no?

It meant that the dark side energy was released into the planet's atmosphere.

Originally posted by AncientPower
He and his fellow students were being amped beyond any power they could imagine and Kun's spirit was going to choke them out.

Yeah, when Brakiss was vastly pre-prime. Essentially just a few scant weeks into his training, to be more precise.

Which is irrelevant given the amp and the dozen others he's sharing power with.